[Glamdring]

[pun intended]

IMHO if it were possible to cross blades forcefully I think an ASP could break most knifes.

On the other hand knife doesn't require as much energy (effort) to be effective and is probably faster (in the sense that ASP needs a bit of "windup" to generate enough force to matter, knifes don't).

Thoughts?

[Don Gwinn]

Assuming equal OAL, I would say the knife has the edge. Sliding your ASP along my arm on the way out won't do much, but do the same with a sharp edge. . . .

Usually I assume ASP vs. pocket folder (~4 inch blade, if that) and in that situation, I think the ASP has advantages because of the reach and the sheer power to physically force someone's limbs or weapons off the line of attack. Even then, though, the ability to cut is a big advantage in itself. With equal length, I don't think it's much of a contest.

So why does anyone carry an ASP instead of a knife of similar reach? Well, a 16" extendable ASP is a lot easier to carry than a knife with a 16" blade!

[brownie0486]

An asp may break junk steel knives from china and the like but no asp will be capable reliably of breaking my Bagwell Bowie, my Fowler, the Piorek Kwaiken, or a few others in the fold.

Your question begs another question.

Are you thinking of carrying an asp with the intent to break a blade during a knife attack with it?

If that is the thought process here, forget it in my opinion.

Another question--how did you even come up with a summation that this might work in a defensive posture?

Brownie

[Glamdring]

IMHO a 12 gauge is the proper counter to a knife. Self defense isn't about fair fights!

Question is bascially academic. I know it is common for swords and knifes to get broken or stuck from simply stabbing something or someone.

Geometrically the ASP is stronger than a knife.

My personal OPINION is that for low skill/unskilled user ASP would be better weapon. As skill level goes up the knife becomes a better weapon.

[brownie0486]

I'm not sure what your background or experience with knives is, however I will state this for your review.

Knives, even cheap knives, are not prone to break when stabbed into a human body. Knives can and do ocassionally get stuck in the body when they are stabbed into the chest cavity due to "suctioning". This also depends on the blades design parameters. Some will enter and exit the chest cavity very well by design with nary any effort to disengage from the body.

If you meant to say the "tip" of the knives have tendencies to break when hitting hard targets, sure that is more reasonable and it happens.

I have no knowledge of swords so I can't comment on these weapons.

The asp, as Don mentioned, has the reach advantage over a folding knife. In that scenario, the asp is effective at keeping the perp at a distance and his knife probably can't reach you if you know how to use the asp as it should be used.

I like impact weapons and have trained with them since 1982. Would I carry an asp [ which I can ] before I would carry a knife to defend against lethal force? No thankyou.

I don't believe the asps are stronger than a knive. I can wrap the asp around a tel. pole till it looks like a "U", I can't do that with any of the knives I have. I have a few knives that would cleave the asps into pieces quite efficiently.

Brownie

[Jim March]

If some idiot pulls an ASP on me, and I pull a knife in response, I know exactly what I'm going to do:

Charge.

Crouched down, knife in the right hand and held in close at around hip level, off-arm bent and up alongside my head, I'm going "straight downtown", right at him.

He'll hit me on the way in. At 6'4" and 280lbs, I don't think he's gonna stop me. And once in close, he's toast.

[hso]

I don't think that it's reasonable to start from the comparison of a 16" ASP to a 16" knife. You may carry an ASP easily that expands to a 16" length, but I know of no knife that does this. Apples to Apples not Horseapples.

That said, if a 16" steel rod were to be compared to a 16" short sword then I'd have to say that the short sword has an advantage over the rod. You get all the benifits of the rod with the additional cutting edge/thrusting point. If you put an ASP up against a large knife (~9-12 in) I would take the knife. I've been trained in both and know that I can cover my head/neck and get inside my attacker's reach to cut/stab to end the fight and receive managable damage in the process. If the more normal situation exists where the ASP is used against a 4-5" knife I would take a knife against the ASP for the above mentioned reasons. On the other hand if I had to face a knife I'd select the ASP as I have a better than even chance to keep my attacker out side where I can break and bash enough to win (this assumes someone of average knife skill and not someone with my training).

[Sir Galahad]

On skill level, the ASP might not show any advantage in the hands of an unskilled person simply because The average guy is going to do the overhead fishing rod cast and that's easy to duck away from. Anyone who's had PITA cousins knows how to manuever away from the overhead swing. :D One thing I like to point out is that the grandaddy of the ASP was a riot-control tool used by the East German Stasi, except theirs was spring-loaded. So it was not really in the beginning designed as a self-defense tool but as a tool to make the protestors and dissidents run back to their flats and await midnight visits from Stasi followed by Makarov bullets to the back of the neck without witnesses. People are known to take hits from full-on batons and keep a-going. While a knife may not immediately stop such a person, the right slash or thrust and their tank will drain soon enough. The average guy with an ASP is probably going to misunderstand its limitations and open himself up for an attack. As he has to swing that article with force, if he does not connect, he has left his torso open for attack on one side. There are people who could actually grab the ASP from the side when it misses. Grabbing a knife blade can be done, but not for long. :evil:

[Glamdring]

IMO knifes and ASP don't offer any real reach advantage, they are short enough that you block/parry the hand/wrist/arm not the blade.

To me a knife becomes a sword when it is long enough that you can/need to parry the blade and not the limb.

With a GOOD or HIGH quality knife was able to attack ASP at favorable angle then it might well damage ASP (I assume this would be edge on to damage ASP or Spine on to protect edge). With the ASP because it is round is same aspect reguardless of angle of attack.

Wouldn't it be easy to break a knife with an ASP if you attacked the flat? If it was held rigid enough? Or if it was a long blade? I am NOT saying you could pull that off in a fight. Just that you would need to think about protecting the blade from direct impacts from the ASP.

Most of my training with knifes and batons has been Kali style MA or basic LE techniques (mainly Lamb & LAPD styles) and basic courses for PR-24 and ASP. Have also studied Nun Chuk a bit and I know one retired LEO (he worked in Sturgis) that used a Nun Chuk on duty. I am not in LE but have been in security, my instructor for Baton, PR-24, and ASP was full time cop who taught LE classes and gave instruction on impact weapons.

As to breaking knifes it is easy to do when you withdraw from target if you apply force incorrectly. The longer a knife is the bigger a lever you have.

Also when I say break the knife I am not talking about just the blade, with folders or bargin knifes the handle/hilt can break. Done that using knife on cardboard and such just trying to cut them open.

As to someone charging while covering their head that is fine and would probably work against most untrained inexperienced opponents.

Someone with training or experience would probably evade using footwork and perhaps attack knee while passing (my choice if armed with ASP) or thigh (knife target), goal would be to angle forward as they rush you. Or attack hamstring/glute following (if using small folder) or back of knee if using ASP. And you could certainly do both a passing attack and then a following attack like a combination. That is one of the things I practice for self defense drills. I think it gives you a very good chance to disengage safely (ie beat feat). You make two attacks at one leg of opponent and are facing away. Much better than trying to run away from someone charging AT you IMHO.

***
Remember with this thread I asked about parity in skill and OAL of weapon.

My interest are Self Defense. And working out in practice to improve my skills. Different goals and often different techniques.

[Glamdring]

Sir Galahad
On skill level, the ASP might not show any advantage in the hands of an unskilled person simply because The average guy is going to do the overhead fishing rod cast and that's easy to duck away from.

I was thinking typical LE or security officer that has had just a 8 hour or so course and probably never practiced more than twice after the class. Would use mainly horizontal (sp) strikes aimed at elbow or knee if serious; or at arm or thigh muscle in general.

[Andrew Wyatt]

asp batons are made of steel IIRC, if you cross blades with a knife, the knife will slide dowards your hand, and will not be stopped by the nonexistant guard of the asp.

[Glamdring]

Andrew wyattasp batons are made of steel IIRC, if you cross blades with a knife, the knife will slide dowards your hand, and will not be stopped by the nonexistant guard of the asp.

???
I have used that technique with staffs and sticks in actual sparring. I don't see it happening as a matter of course when crossing.

[Sir Galahad]

Glamdring, you said that the ASP might offer an advantage to the low skill/unskilled user. Now you're talking about LEOs or security guards. BUT---- I've seen some security officers more than once get their butts handed to them in fights. Sorry. I still don't understand the point of engaging a man armed with a knife if you are a security guard unless that man is trying to kill you or someone else. If he's just trying to get away because you caught him shoplifting some smokes over at Tinderbox, let him go. It's not worth it. Slightly off topic, but it crossed my mind.

I'll still take the knife. That is what resides on my person 24/7 and always has since I was 14 with very few exceptions. I'll take sharp steel.

[OF]

I think this question can be answered by a simple experiment utilizing the Puckerometer®.

First, we will attach the Puckerometer® to the posterior nether regions of two test subjects...gingerly. Then have the subjects face each other and get really really mad. At the point they are clenching fists and beginning to froth, hand one a 10" baton and the other a 10" fighting knife.

After recording the reading on each Puckerometer® I think you will see that the guy holding the baton, and facing the knife, has a substantially higher pucker-factor than the guy holding the knife.

- Gabe

[Paul Gomez]

Remember that the stick is used to train for the edged weapon in Filipino martial arts. Both stick & knife move along the same paths and with similar body mechanics. Given equal length, the knife can still hit like a stick (albeit with less force), but the stick will not cut or penetrate on the thrust like a knife. The beauty of the ASP, in my eyes, is that it is compact. I can carry a 21-inch ASP tucked in my waistband everyday, all day without concern. When I show up to work with a 21-inch machete on my hip, everybody points & stares a lot.;)

[Betty]

So we've all come to the conclusion that we'd rather use our guns, right? :D

(Anyone ever play "Paper, Rock, Scissors" and do a "Gun" instead?)

[bad_dad_brad]

runt_of_the_litter becomes Zen with a simple statement.

I don't have much of an opinion here (except to agree with runt) but it seems reach and mass have something to do with things.

I have a 20" Asp. A 20" knife is not a knife but a sword. I can conceal carry a 20" Asp but not a 20" sword. If I am matched with an Asp versus a combat folder, I do have some reach advantage.

Of course, if the fellow really knows how to use the folder, I am in trouble even with an Asp but probably, unless he is really close, not with a gun.

Again, runt is Zen.

[TaxPhd]

I've seen guys getting hit with ASP's on COPS, and the results aren't very impressive. With a little determination, guy with a knife closes with his attacker and causes serious damage. Even if if ASP is 21" and knife is a 4" folder.

[Glamdring]

Arrgh.

I started this thread because I wanted to find out if there were any strengths & weakness to the ASP and Knife that I had not figured out yet.

I was not asking about using ASP or KNIFE or gun for self defense, as I said earlier I feel a 12 gauge with OO buck or Slug to be my first choice for knife defense.

Consider the following example: Assuming equal skill, size, etc would a Wung Chun Kung Fu stylist have an advantage over a Shotokan Karate Stylist?? Replace the martial arts mentioned with knife vs ASP (or stick if you prefer). If the knife has so advantages vs ASP please list them. Also weaknesses. I don't believe it is all one sided.

When I mentioned LEO and Security guards I did so as an example of a low skilled person (they practice about as often as most deer hunters shoot :eek: ).

A (medium) skilled person to me would be someone that practices with knife or asp or gun at least once a month.

A high skilled person would practice at least once a week.

[Glamdring]

TaxPhd: I've seen guys getting hit with ASP's on COPS, and the results aren't very impressive. With a little determination, guy with a knife closes with his attacker and causes serious damage. Even if if ASP is 21" and knife is a 4" folder.

Okay in LE impact weapons are normally used to soften people up.

Normally you use them to make repeated strikes to muscles (think punching someone in shoulder or bicep), your not trying to break bones your trying to bruise muscles. The reason for this is to weaken them enough so you can take them down and cuff them. Compliance techniques generally don't work well against people that are not weakened first unless they are much weaker to start with. Ever notice on COPS how LEO can have trouble getting cuffs on skinny drunk women?

Generally impact weapons for LE are considered a lower level of force than a fist.

Muscles strikes do not have a dramatic effect. By design they don't. They are designed to help you restrain and cuff someone without causing serious injury to them.

Now in martial arts, if your using a impact weapon, you aim for joints. Or for spots like shin or knee cap that cause lots of pain, and maybe damage, real quickly.

Same type of tool but different techniques for different goals. In LE use you normally use impact weapon to subdue someone. For MA you use impact weapon to defeat opponent that is (in theory) a serious threat. In LE if opponent was a serious threat, then you would use gun like Runt said.

[Paul Gomez]

"Sticks seek bone. Knives seek flesh."- old Filipino adage

The ASP is used to crush. Knives are used to cut. It is easier to crush someone with an ASP than it is to crush them with a knife. It is easier to make someone bleed with a knife than it is to make them bleed with an ASP.;)

OK, I'm not really trying to be a smartass, but I'm really not sure what you are asking. Sticks and Knives are very different animals, used to attain different goals.

The beauty of the ASP is twofold. One, it is compact to carry and it gives you reach that you wouldn't otherwise have. Two, with documented training it can be established that the user was utilizing it as a less-lethal option (compared to knife or gun), in the same manner as law enforcement personnel. The knife will always be viewed as lethal force. The ASP may not.

I have never seen a departmental policy which placed impact weapons before empty hand skills. Most UoF policies go from officer presence, verbal, OC, soft empty hand, hard empty hand (fists), baton, lethal force. Some UoF policies still place OC after hard empty hand and before baton.

Targeting for baton striking in LEO circles depends on which training program that agency has adopted. PPCT teaches striking for motor points in the large muscle mass. Monadnock color codes the body into green, yellow & red based on likelihood of damage. ASP teaches 45-degree striking to the center of mass of the offending appendage.

I'm not sure I've answered your question, if not, I can always try again.:)

[Glamdring]

Paul Gomez: Thanks for your response.

Like I said I haven't ever been LEO. But have been in security and have had training that was provided by active LEO. Also had LE students in most of those classes. I was told, by LE students, that here in MN that using baton was lower level of force for LEO than hitting someone with their hand (ie hard hand as you put it) but would have been after soft hands and I think pepper spray. I think the idea was they were not (generally) supposed to use hard empty hands. Was basically to assist them in applying compliance techniques and/or cuffing.

As to my question, I'm not sure if was, or is clear :confused:

Was basically looking at ASP vs Knife in a MA classroom setting. Just for MA research, practice, and self improvement. NOT for true self defense related. To me ASP is different from regular sticks in Kali because of the balance difference. I only have a steel ASP and it seems slower but more powerful than sticks of same length. I think an aluminum ASP would probably be faster.

I think I was looking for how a skilled or high skilled knife person would face an equally skilled ASP armed person. And same for ASP vs knife.

Most of the responses seemed to focus on folding knifes vs ASP from people that didn't seem to be familiar with basic LE training (what I consider LOW skill) for impact weapons. Let alone what a skilled Knife or stick fighter might do, such as footwork, timeing, checking weapon arm, various types of block, etc.

[Glamdring]

Okay. This was supposed to be sort of like a 9mm vs 45acp kinda thread :D

Does that make sense?

[JShirley]

Gosh, Guy. Apples to oranges. 9mm and .45 compete for the same mission in service sidearms, but an expandable baton is a different animal altogether from a large knife. A more realistic comparison is probably an 11" knife vs a 26" ASP. Where I the defender, I would go with the ASP. If on a military mission, I'd use the knife. Different missions, bro.

Peace,

John
(edit- I now see that Paul has already replied along lines with my thinking. Welcome to the board, Mr. Gomez. Glad to have you.)

[Paul Gomez]

OK, I'm game.:) Using a stick (be it rattan, ASP or pool cue) against a knife, the general rule of thumb is to use the length to your advantage. Target his hand with the far end of your stick (known as "defanging the snake" in FMA). This will keep his knife as far away from your soft gushy parts as possible. After inflicting pain and damage to the extremity, you can move in, inflicting pain and damage as you close.

The same holds true for the knife, it's just that the pain and damage tend to be more severe.

Generally speaking, you have three options in dealing with an attack. You can meet the attack, pass the attack or follow the attack. Appropriate footwork aids in meets, passes and follows, but the same basic footwork is done regardless of weapon used. For instance, I may have to move in deeper with a shorter weapon (my Spyderco Delica) than I would with a longer one (my 21-inch ASP), but I'm still moving along the same angles.

How would two equally matched, highly skilled players deal with the other? (assuming one had a knife and one had a stick) The one that thought to throw out a "verbal defuse" immediately prior to initiating the attack would probably get the upper hand and if they maintained continuous forward aggression, they would probably carry the engagement, regardless of the weapons involved.

-------------

ASPs do move differently than rattan and the longer they get the greater the differences. For instance, I used 33-inch rattan batons in Pekiti-Tirsia and when I picked up a 31-inch ASP the balance was atrocious. However, the 26 and shorter ASPs aren't near so offensive. For everyday carry, I prefer an airweight 21-inch.

It's easier to learn range with sticks than knives, simply because sticks exist in more ranges than knives. By this I mean that with a 21-inch stick you can begin at greater range than with most knives and work in all the way into trapping and grappling ranges using the stick in different ways. (punyo or buttstrikes, body chokes, stick chokes, etc).

How's that?:)

[Glamdring]

Paul Gomez: :cool:

I am not familiar with the term "Pekiti-Tirsia" is that a specific (region) FMA?

I didn't know they made 31" ASP, I've only seen 21" and 24" IIRC. Mine is a 21".

I suspect I would use a 31" ASP more like a short staff (ie two hand grip mainly), would be darn awkward to use it with a single hand.

***

I have noticed in most MA--empty hand, knife, sword, stick, gun, etc--that in classroom you only practice/train to counter someone of your own style. Or if some other style is shown attacking it is usually a very weak attack. Example, in a Karate class the knife attacks your shown to defend against are usually a very simple overhand strike.

Also many so called MA teach very bad basics for real fights. From what I have been able to figure out you need to defend head and neck above all else in hand to hand. Because those are the only targets that are really lethal (strangle/chokes, head crank, hard blows to head).

I've noticed that not many current Martial artists even know what a head crank (think joint lock on the neck) is, though I have found it mentioned in older books and some of Bruce Lee's writing.

I know I have lots to learn about MA and related, that is why I started this thread.

John: I know you think I speak Swahili :) I thought this was more like spear vs sword would be in your art.

To me knife vs ASP (or PR-24) is a very possible situation in real life. For instance, in at least some places Security Guards only get to carry a baton.

Four years ago, I was living in a different city. One day at a Farm & Fleet type store someone tried to by some guns. He failed the "instant check". He then bought TWO machetes. The store personel thought about it for awhile and then called LE (I heard the notice from dispatch to patrol officers on my scanner, learned lots of things that happened in that town that never made the papers listening to the scanner).

[JShirley]

Guy,
I'm not saying ASP vs knife would never happen. I do believe (as others have said) that battle with similar length baton and knife would be really rare.
Security personnel and the individual citizen, in certain areas, may be able to carry the baton but not a firearm, but if one has the option: knives are lethal threats, and if possible, should be answered with firepower from outside knifing range (though that range can be closed quickly- remember the Tueller drill).
For myself, I do really like the ASP, though I need to be recertified. I see the ASP mostly similar to the ASP manual, as a "defensive weapon", while knives are tools that may be utilized as lethal offensive close-range implements.

Best,
John

[Paul Gomez]

Yep, Pekiti Tirsia Kali is Leo Gaje's take on FMA. Leo was also instrumental in the development of the ASP Basic Course. If you've ever seen the law enforcement training film "Surviving Edged Weapons", Leo is also featured in it.

Most FMAs are more alike than they are different. They address attacks and defenses from the perspective of angles of attack rather than specific attack/response combinations. I guess you could say they are more "concept driven" rather than "task driven".

ASP makes 16, 21, 26 and 31-inch batons in standard (steel) and airweight (aluminum handle and first section but with steel striking section) models and offers two different grip materials.

The 31-inch baton has a handle section that is around a foot long! It really is an awkward thing.

One of the best ways to determine the functionality of techniques is to test them in force-on-force scenario training using a fist suit. It is quite easy to pull off technique A-B-C with a compliant training partner, it's quite another to make it work against an active aggressive combatant.:) Some of my colleagues attended a seminar a few weeks back and it was very interesting to watch them try and pull off some of the techniques they'd been shown at the seminar when they were working with someone who didn't have a playsheet to refer to.

[Glamdring]

Paul Gomez:
Some of my colleagues attended a seminar a few weeks back and it was very interesting to watch them try and pull off some of the techniques they'd been shown at the seminar when they were working with someone who didn't have a playsheet to refer to.

My jr year in college they had a couple hour "self defense" class for women put on by the local jacket wrestling club (americanized judo). I showed up because I wanted to see what they covered. I had been lifting wts and going to MA classes and seminars for a bit over 2 years at that time. I was the only guy there besides the club members. I couldn't make most of the techniques they were showing work against guys that were taller than me. I pointed out how if I couldn't make them work, being taller & stronger than any of the women there, against unresisting opponent then the women the class was for were going to have a very difficult time trying to use those techniques for real. They just kinda looked blank when I pointed that out.

:confused: