Military surplus handguns?


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Odnar
February 8, 2007, 01:47 PM
I've been a big fan of surplus rifles for a long time (Swedish mauser, SKS, Mosin, etc) and learned a lot at THR about rifles I'd never heard about before. I'm looking for a surplus handgun now. I need something that's relatively inexpensive (not looking to spend more than around $300). Hopefully something that is easy to find ammo for (piles of cheap surplus would be great). It would be just for fun, so shootable condition is a must. Doesn't need to be a tack driver, or a magnum for defense. Anything that falls into that category? Approx. price for gun & ammo?

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strat81
February 8, 2007, 01:50 PM
Makarov?

Odnar
February 8, 2007, 02:06 PM
"Makarov?"

Bear with me, I don't know anything at all about military handguns (other than the US ones). Are there some countries that the Makarov is more desirable from? How does that affect price? Gunbroker shows them from ~$100-$600. I assume that 9x18 is different from standard US 9mm parabellum? (For lack of a better description)

hrgrisso
February 8, 2007, 02:13 PM
I recommend that any gun enthusiast who is into Mil. Surplus check out the following stores website.

www.jgsales.com

They are here in Arizona. Because of distance a buddy and I drive up every couple of months for bulk buys. I bought my Enfield and Mosin Nagant there. Ammo cheap, surplus guns cheap etc. Take a look, since they also ship!

Prince Yamato
February 8, 2007, 02:29 PM
Definately a Makarov (or any 9x18 pistol).

modifiedbrowning
February 8, 2007, 02:51 PM
Walther P1.

rellascout
February 8, 2007, 03:14 PM
CZ 52

nwilliams
February 8, 2007, 03:15 PM
+1 on CZ 52! Its a great mil-surp handgun and about as cheap as you can get, roughly $129-$139 where I live. The ammo is readily avalible, from around $15 a box for non-corrosive 50rd boxes, to 800rd corrosive bulk packs for $80.

I also suggest checking out J&G like hrgrisso suggested above, I live just a couple miles away and go there every week, never bought anything over the phone or internet from them because I live so close, but they do a lot of business that way so theyre very easy to deal with.

.45Guy
February 8, 2007, 03:35 PM
There's a guy here in Wisconsin I buy ammo from selleng a couple Ballester Molinas on auction arms. They're going pretty cheap as well.

GigaBuist
February 8, 2007, 05:43 PM
Are there some countries that the Makarov is more desirable from? How does that affect price?

East German and Russian pistols have a higher collector value, and from what I gather they're a little better built (aesthetics wise) than the Bulgarian variants. They all go boom, though.

Gunbroker shows them from ~$100-$600.

A Bulgarian Makarov (cheap as you're going to find) should run you about $150 at any gunshow.

I assume that 9x18 is different from standard US 9mm parabellum?

You are correct, sir. 9mm Parabellum is 9x19mm.

There's really no "surplus" ammo that I know of, but the commercial stuff coming out of Russia (Wolf and Silver Bear) aren't horribly priced. I snagged a case of 1,000 rounds when I got my Makarov for $80 out the door if I remember right. It is a military caliber, after all. They tend to be fairly affordable, and unlike the rifle rounds, it doesn't look like there's any shortages right now.

(GigaBuist goes and fiddles around with the web for a minute.)

Okay, scratch that. Ammoman.com has a case of Wolf 9x18 listed as $179 shipped to your door. I guess the price of THAT went up too. Crikey!

A word of "caution": The PA-63 is sometimes called a "Polish Makarov" when it's not a Makarov. It just shoots the same caliber. Still not a bad pistol, but it's not a Makarov.

With that said, if your budget is $300 then you can get a Bulgarian Makarov AND a CZ-52, which realascout mentioned.

The CZ-52 is perhaps a bit less useful (fragile firing pin and a big 'ole hunk of metal) but it's an interesting piece and can be had for $130-$150 at gun shows around here. It's chambered in 7.62x25mm* and uses a delayed roller-locking blowback mechanism like you'd see in a CETME or H&K G3 rifle. Odd little critter.

*: 7.62 Tokarov and 7.62x25mm, I gather, are different beasts but dimensionally identical and I'm not sure if the CZ-52 can actually handle the "full house" 7.62x25mm rounds intended for sub-guns.

ugaarguy
February 8, 2007, 06:38 PM
The CZ-82s that are on the market now are good guns as well, chambered in 9x18. There are also some German surplus P1 pistols - post WWII allot framed P-38 - still available. These are in the standard 9x19/9mm Luger/9mm NATO, but will only handle standard loads and not +P. Still they're a light 9x19 is much hotter than any 9x18, which is pretty much an Eastern Bloc copy of the .380 ACP. Staying with German surplus, though a litttle more than the stated price range, there are still P6 pistols out there. These are SIG P225 single stack 9x19 pistols for under $400. Lastly there are the mini 1911 looking Star BM pistols in 9x19 from Spain, available for under $200.

www.aimsurplus.com
www.kyimports.com

GRIZ22
February 8, 2007, 10:46 PM
I got a brand new P1 with 3 mags, holster, cleaning kit, and manual (in German) for $300 about a year ago. You can probably get the same for that or a little more. I see excellent/very good ones going for under 300.

browningguy
February 8, 2007, 11:19 PM
I've got one of the nearly new CZ52's and it is a blast to shoot. $129, cheap surplus ammo currently available.

strat81
February 9, 2007, 02:19 AM
Odnar, I'm by no means a Makarov expert. Best place to start is www.makarov.com. Yes, certain Makarovs are more desirable than others. Yes, the 9x18 is different than 9mm Para (9x19). Many on this forum own and lover their Maks.

gopguy
February 9, 2007, 09:29 AM
A word of "caution": The PA-63 is sometimes called a "Polish Makarov" when it's not a Makarov. It just shoots the same caliber. Still not a bad pistol, but it's not a Makarov. Actually the PA-63 is a Hungarian pistol with a aluminum alloy frame. GigaBuist is thinking of the P-64 which is the Polish pistol. There are also a small number of Polish Radoms in 9mm Makarov but those are pricey.

The Bulgarian Makarovs have dried up at the shows and I have not seen one for less than $225 on a dealers table in six months. The Russian, East German and early Chinese z models are bringing much much more. The Special Edition Arsenal guns made in Bulgaria imported by Miltex are in the mid $400 range right now.

As of late CZ 52 pistols are running around $160 at the shows around Ohio and are a good value for the money.

Another good surplus pistol are the Star B and BM pistol in 9mm. However with the Bs you have to watch the chambering carefully. Many were brought in chambered in 9mm Largo, not real easy to find.

I think the Walther P38 and P1 are also a good value for the current asking prices. Great shooters, though the alloy frames have shorter lives.


Good hunting.;)

ZeSpectre
February 9, 2007, 10:19 AM
Another +1 on the CZ-52. The first time I fired one I knew I had to get one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vz_52_(pistol)

http://www.makarov.com/cz52/

.45Guy
February 9, 2007, 12:22 PM
Here's a link to the cheaper one: http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=7855511 He always has some neat stuff up on there. I actually went to his shop to buy ammo once. Amazing place! Unfortunately, he's doing most of his business online now.

jon_in_wv
February 9, 2007, 12:34 PM
In my opinion the BEST Mil Surp handgun out now is still the Makarov. Amother favorite of mine is the Star Model BM. It is a really nice shooting gun and both of these guns can be acquired for well under 300 smackers each. The MAK ammo is cheap and the BM is a 9mm.

I also have a CZ52 which is a BLAST to shoot (literally) and its is SUPER accurate. I have also been looking at the Zastava Model 70s. Just for curiosity purposes.

.45Guy
February 9, 2007, 12:37 PM
I always liked my Star model A. It was nice when you could still find Gold Dots for it anyway.

REJones
February 9, 2007, 01:09 PM
What's the P4? Is it 9x19mm?

tinygnat219
February 9, 2007, 02:27 PM
Don't forget the lowly little 1895 Nagant Revolver.

El Tejon
February 9, 2007, 03:06 PM
Sounds like you need a CZ-52. Aren't you on the southside of Indy? Call Bradis over in Camby. Bob carries a lot of them. Plenty of gun stores in Indy. Call around and see who has them.

Odnar, or hit the Indy 1500 gun show in March. You will find a bunch of surplus pistols and revolvers. I've picked up more than a few (:D) surplus pistols at the Indianapolis gun shows over the years.

Onmilo
February 9, 2007, 04:43 PM
Walther P1
A best buy right now.
How can you go wrong with a full power 9mm Luger caliber battle pistol for $275.00 retail?

Odnar
February 9, 2007, 05:02 PM
Thanks for all the suggestions, at least I have some ideas to look for that aren't notorious in a bad way. :D

Tejon: Actually, it's the north side, but Indy's not that big. I'll check it out. Thanks for the heads up, I don't know of anywhere up on this side that sells surplus. Went to the 1500 in January, bought 1000 7.62x39, probably spent more than a Makarov would have cost me!

El Tejon
February 9, 2007, 07:44 PM
Indy's not that big? Mmmm, well, Indianapolis is the 12 or 13th largest city in the nation, but it is easy to get around in. Just take 465 South to Camby for Bradis or Southport for Albro's and you should find surplus handguns.

Let your fingers do the walking in the yellow pages, you should be able to scare up a bunch. If not, see you at the show in March.:)

ARperson
February 10, 2007, 05:06 PM
They still had P1s and CZ-52s last time I was in there.

Odnar
February 11, 2007, 12:00 AM
"Indy's not that big? Mmmm, well, Indianapolis is the 12 or 13th largest city in the nation, but it is easy to get around in."

Actually, what I meant was that I live on the north side and Camby's on the south, but Indy's not so big as to make it a big deal to drive there. (I lose so much between my brain and my keyboard somewhere.) I see that they have Sunday hours, maybe I'll stop in tomorrow and see old, ugly Ichabod.

Essex County
February 11, 2007, 02:06 PM
As an owner of a Mak and CZ52 let me second my favorite, the Star BM. Essex

mndfusion
February 13, 2007, 03:37 AM
Makarov's are some of the best auto's ever made IMO. The work almost as well as a good revolver.

DMK
February 13, 2007, 07:16 PM
I don't think anyone mentioned the CZ-50 and it's close cousin the CZ-70. They are 32ACP guns, very similar to the Walther PP(also a good gun).

CZ-50s are C&R BTW. As are the CZ-52, Manhurin PP (French made Walther), Russian Nagants, East German & Russian Makarovs, Star B (a 9mm 1911 clone), Argentine Sistemas (a South American 1911A1), S&W and Colt 1917 45ACP recolvers, and Berretta 1934s (.380 pocket auto) among many others. Most of these turn up every once in a while on auction sites or forum classifieds if you are dilligent.


Aim Surplus has some Lugers for about $900.

sceptre
February 15, 2007, 12:53 AM
http://www.summitgunbroker.com/

I've gotten a Glock from him for around $350. He mainly deals in police turn-ins.

He has some under $300. Check it out. Maybe you'll find something you like.

Mortech
February 15, 2007, 12:57 AM
I'm hoping to get the funds together for a 4006 and a 4566 from him , but for now I gotta replace the catalytic converter on my car first :banghead:

Oh to keep this on topic , my favorite milsurps are my CZ70 and my Makarov .

D.A.C.
February 15, 2007, 12:14 PM
Century had some Romania Tokarevs as of monday. I bought one last week, its got perfect bluing, a holster and 2 mags, and was made in 1953---$251 delivered. A buddy of mine liked his so much that he ordered another one monday. All 3 that we've received were awesome.

rocinante
February 15, 2007, 08:50 PM
I like my PI. IMHO it shoots very well and is PURRTY. See if you can get a later year one with the hex pin reinforcement in the frame and the heavier slide. I paid 300 for mine with two clips and just a little wear on the frame. I LIKE IT.

CWL
February 15, 2007, 11:12 PM
I'm surprised that nobody has recommended the Systema .45ACP, made from Colt M1911 tooling.

They're at the bottom of the barrel nowadays but you can get em for $250, better grade for $350.

CAnnoneer
February 15, 2007, 11:57 PM
If you are going to spend $300 on a milsurp of questionable functionality and no manufacturer support, why not pay $100 more and get yourself a new-in-box Ruger or Taurus with lifetime maintenance and free shipping?

Furncliff
February 16, 2007, 12:05 AM
The Star Model B was one of the pistols that the Spanish company Star Bonnifacio Echeverria, S.A. was producing during WWII. Most parts are avail, notable exception is barrels. There are some variants. Those shooting 9mm luger, probably are more practical. They look and feel like a 1911, but a bit smaller and with no grip safety, they are not clones. Prices range from about 200 to about 700 for a perfect collector piece. Mine has it's problems but I like the feel of it enough to keep working out the bugs. They are generally well thought of.

Star pistol forum http://www.gunboards.com/forums/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=70

Star Infor. http://star-firearms.com/cgi-bin/gm1/index.shtml

Odnar
February 16, 2007, 09:10 AM
"If you are going to spend $300 on a milsurp of questionable functionality and no manufacturer support, why not pay $100 more and get yourself a new-in-box Ruger or Taurus with lifetime maintenance and free shipping?"

I already have several of what I consider to be nicer commercial handguns, including HK, Glock, S&W and Beretta (and I've had both Ruger and Taurus). I bought a few surplus rifles because I like the look, feel, and history of them. I'd like to do the same for handguns.

What's a PI?

115grfmj
February 16, 2007, 09:16 AM
Best bang for the buck I've ever spent.:D

The Scandinavian
February 16, 2007, 09:22 AM
Yeah, I had a Star B in 9mm when I lived in the UK in the days before the handgun ban. I liked it a lot. I suppose it's a Japanese car now :(

berettashotgun
February 16, 2007, 10:45 AM
The CZ-52 fits the bill, exactly as your post states you desire.
The US has a milsurp with unlimited ammo availability- I think it is called a 45?;)
Kinda up in price at the moment.
I have a CZ-50 (32acp), yet magazines are the weak place in the system, good mag = great, bad mag = pos.
The Nagant is pretty cool as far as milsurps are concerned, drop in cylinder allows you to shoot more common ammo.
P1's are the coolest ( to me ) and the price is also within your requirement.

DMK
February 16, 2007, 08:57 PM
I have a CZ-50 (32acp), yet magazines are the weak place in the system, good mag = great, bad mag = pos.Super easy fix. You file or dremel the front wall of the mag down a bit to cut out a round clearance for the bullet to pass. I've done that to all my CZ-70 mags and all of my dad's for his CZ-50. Between us with a dozen mags, neither has ever had a problem with misfeeds.


I liked it a lot. I suppose it's a Japanese car now :( I'm sorry to laugh at your misfortune Scandinavian, but that's funny (in a dark humor way of course).

I agree though, the Star B is a nice handgun. I bought one last year and love it. I'm very surprised that Stars don't get more respect. I also have a Japanese car. Maybe one of them was yours? :(

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