[DMK]

For self defense purposes, I know that you need to be able to do both.

For regular training purposes, how do you diagnose which you need to work on?

I have access to a basic range, paper targets at 15 yards, 25 yards and 50 yards. Rapid fire is allowed.

[RNB65]

Always take the time to hit the target. You may not get a second shot.

[strat81]

What's that quote about not being able to miss fast enough?

If you can empty a 10 round mag in 2 seconds and not hit a thing, why bother drawing a gun?

[DMK]

Always take the time to hit the target. You may not get a second shot.

If you can empty a 10 round mag in 2 seconds and not hit a thing, why bother drawing a gun?

Guys, no offense, but glib quotes aren't helpful in answering the question. Do people even read the posts here anymore or just the subjects? :confused:

The question is about training. I agree with the quotes. That's why I'm wondering how to improve my technique and abilities. I can hit the target, but what is good enough for SD and how fast do you need to do it? Is a 6" pattern at 25 yards good enough? What about 8"? What about 10"? 5 shots in 7 sec? 5 shots in 15 sec?


One of the tips I read elsewhere was if you are shooting quick, but not accurately, try practicing some more at longer ranges. If you are shooting accurately, but not quick, try practicing some more at closer ranges. Well, how do you know which way you should go?

[ArmedBear]

It's not a single answer.

If you are shooting at 15-25 yards, practice accuracy.

If you are shooting at 7-10 yards, practice putting all your rounds where you want them, as fast as you can but no faster. Work on getting faster, after you are putting them all where you want them.

I'm assuming this is for self-defense, not a particular type of competition.

[RNB65]

The critical area of the human torso is about 10" wide and 16" long. If you can consistently draw and put 2-3 shots in an area that size at 15yds or so, that's plenty good for self-defense. I like to practice with an 8x11 piece of paper as it is reasonably close to a miniature torso. I only worry about being smooth and hitting the target -- I'm not concerned with how fast I can do it.

[HSMITH]

How fast can you present the gun and place two shots COM? I want to be able to do this in less than 1.5 seconds from concealment, and a little over a second when not concealed. I would find out what you can do, and then find out where the time is spent.

Take a trip over to Matt Burketts webpage, look around and find the timing drills he has. Basically you shoot the gun slowly, and speed up a little at a time, it teaches you what YOUR timing is with THAT gun. I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out you can actually shoot a lot faster than you knew you could before you did the timing drills. It is a great way to learn what you and your gun are doing at high speed.

[Jim K]

First, SD shootings, even by police, very rarely take place at 25 yards, or even 25 feet. If you want to think of 25 yards, you have to realize that aiming is necessary; shooting accurately at that distance without using the sights is just not realistic. At 25 yards, the only difference from formal target shooting will be that you can use two hands, rest the gun and take cover. Standing up and facing the threat is the kind of stupid thing done only in the more idiotic gunzines. So concentrate on accuracy.

At short ranges, where an SD shooting is more likely to take place (1 - 10 feet), concentrate on accuracy without using the sights, then work on speed. A 5" group should be adequate. Rolling cans is good practice if there is an area where you can do that. Shooting at a fixed target is probably the least helpful for that kind of practice. You want to be good enough that your gun will follow your eyes without conscious thought on your part.

I recommend buying a .22 that is similar to your carry gun so you can practice without filing for bankruptcy. But practice with your carry gun and carry ammo enough to have confidence in the gun, ammo, and (if an autoloader) the magazines. Do NOT make the mistake of practicing with cheap ammo, saving the "good stuff" for carry; you might find out at the wrong time that the "good stuff" isn't.

Jim

[Flame Red]

Take a hint from Wild Bill Hickok - who was fast but always took his time and aimed carefully while the bullets wizzed about him.

[strat81]

DMK,
Apologies if you took what I said the wrong way. However, your first post wasn't nearly as detailed/informative as your second. Anyway...

You mention a 6" pattern at 25 yards... From what I learned in my CCW class, and what I've read here on THR, if you shoot someone 25 yards away from you, you're gonna be in world of trouble. With that said, center mass of an average adult male is larger than 6". It's hard, if not impossible, to say what kind of groups you'll have while under stress.

Personally, accuracy is more important to me than speed once the gun is drawn. Can you draw from concealment quickly and safely? If so, then concentrate on accuracy. However, self-defense shooting is NOT bullseye shooting. Look into some of the practical pistol shooting sports.

Stay safe.

[ZXD9]

Get yourself a shot timer. I use one in my training and keep track of my times. It will tell you how long it takes to get your first shot off (draw time) and time between subsequent shots. It's a good tool to see where you need to spend more time training. I believe general theory is that you should be able to draw and fire two rounds in 2 seconds.

Here are a couple of my times for comparison. These are the best times achieved so far. Shot(s) must be placed in A zone of an IPSC target.

Draw from holster, 3 yards, two to body, one to head: 1.8sec
Draw from holster, 7 yard, 2 to body, reload, 2 to body: 3.82sec
Low ready, 3 yards, 1 to body: 0.43sec
Low ready, 7 yards, 1 to body, 1 to head: 1.04sec

First shot from the holster: 1.25 sec

[Mad Chemist]

IMO, for SD a smooth and quick presentation from the holster is equally as important as accuracy.
A basic rule I follow for SD shooting drills, if the group is smaller than my fist then I speed things up.

I believe one of the most important sd handgun drills is the ability to draw and shoot with lateral movt.
It sounds like your accuracy is fine. If possible you should find a location that will permit more dynamic drills. If you can't find one in your area, get a quality airsoft gas-gun replica of your carry gun and practice with that.

BTW, wear your normal cover garment(s) and concealment holster. It's surprising how easy it is to screw up a draw under stress. Good Luck

[alucard0822]

I have a little different purpose, but similar training, for cowboy action shooting, I have practiced to fire quickly and rpidly without sighting. I load rubber bullets over primers only so while I may get a bruise on my foot if I screw up I will still have a foot I shoot at 8x8 cardboard boxes in my basement, the rubber bullets are reuseable and to reload only press in a new primer and bullet, best way IMO to practice quickly drawing and firing while being safe, then when comfortable try it at the range with live ammo and work on shot placement 1st, consistency then speed at a standard yardage, once comfortable vary the distance you will improve greatly, practice makes perfect

[Mandirigma]

strat81:

"You can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight." -Col. Cooper

That the one you thinking of?

[DMK]

Apologies if you took what I said the wrong way.No problem. Sorry for being cranky. :o

The critical area of the human torso is about 10" wide and 16" long... I like to practice with an 8x11 piece of paper as it is reasonably close to a miniature torso.True, and good point. I also practice with a tombstone target pattern on an 8x11 paper. I figure the Thorasic Triangle (the area between your throat and your two nipples) which is said to be the area of highest potential stopping power, that's only about 8" x 8" so I've been trying to get within a 6" circle.

I only worry about being smooth and hitting the target -- I'm not concerned with how fast I can do it.Well, feel free to critique me, but I wouldn't think time is a luxury you can count on in a crisis (consider someone running at you with a knife, just for one example).

How fast can you present the gun and place two shots COM? I want to be able to do this in less than 1.5 seconds from concealment, and a little over a second when not concealed...Take a trip over to Matt Burketts webpage, look around and find the timing drills he has.Thanks HSMITH. I'll Google for Matt Burketts site.

First, SD shootings, even by police, very rarely take place at 25 yards, or even 25 feet. If you want to think of 25 yards, you have to realize that aiming is necessary; shooting accurately at that distance without using the sights is just not realistic.Well, since I can't practice stress that well, I'm trying to make my practice more difficult technically. The logic being if I can do X at 25 yards, I definitely should be able to do it at 15 feet. Would you consider this practice counter productive?

At short ranges, where an SD shooting is more likely to take place (1 - 10 feet), concentrate on accuracy without using the sights, then work on speed...Shooting at a fixed target is probably the least helpful for that kind of practice. Yea, I'm a little limited at my range because although I can bring my own homemade target stand and set it closer, I can't shoot at anything but paper targets or commercial silhouettes. I've been trying to compensate for that by spacing paper targets horizontally and at different distances, then putting a couple shots into each in random order.


Do NOT make the mistake of practicing with cheap ammo, saving the "good stuff" for carry; you might find out at the wrong time that the "good stuff" isn't.Interesting comment. I don't practice all that often with my carry ammo. I usually shoot about 200 rounds of a new round to "certify it" reliable, zero'd and accurate with the gun. Then I shoot cheap stuff save the occasional box of used carry ammo that I've rotated out maybe once every six months. Is that kind of what you are talking about?

From what I learned in my CCW class, and what I've read here on THR, if you shoot someone 25 yards away from you, you're gonna be in world of trouble.Yes, I agree. I do not intend to deploy my firearm at threats at that distance unless I see no other option besides dying.

Look into some of the practical pistol shooting sports.I've done some USPS. Great fun and one of the learning experiences that led me to these discussions. Unfortunately, I can't do it as regularly as I'd like.


Great comments folks! Lots of stuff to think about. Thanks! :)

[g5reality]

I practice Defensive Shooting at 3/5/7 & 12 yard distances. Anyone with practice and slow shooting technique should be able to put 10 rounds within enough of a grouping to do serious damage, 4"-6" or the size of the palm of your hand.

Most Defensive Shooting will take place within 30 feet, rapid fire. 3-5 round bursts, Practice it.

Also for legal purposed anyone who is further away could probably convict you for manslaughter or murder 1, because at beyond that distance, unless your prep is armed, your life is NOT in "Imminent Danger". And believe it, that there are/have been, plenty of ballistics tests that they can tell how far away you were when you shot with what ammo.

[ArmedBear]

To clarify:

15-25 yard slow-fire is to practice proficiency at accurate handgun shooting. This is a general shooting skill, but very seldom applicable to self-defense. It COULD be, say, if your kid is being held by a bad guy with a knife, and you want to know that you can shoot the bad guy without shooting your kid. That's about the only scenario I can think of where it would be a justifiable shooting.

Closer range, and more rapid fire, are to practice self-defense.

[Mandirigma]

Guys, no offense, but glib quotes aren't helpful in answering the question. Do people even read the posts here anymore or just the subjects?

There's a philosophy in a lot of quotes, it encompasses what is said but also what is not said. You've got to look into the meaning of these a little more.

"You can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight." There's also another one that goes with it. "Only hits count."

Basically, if you don't hit/stop/neutralize the BG, he will continue to fire back at you.

Practice for accuracy. Function at your natural body speed, go for smoothness. "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast." "Speed is the absence of excess." Speed becomes a byproduct of smoothness.

Best example I can give is training for Martial Arts. You start off slow (quarter speed), learning the forms, learning the movements. Learning precision (in the case of a firearm, learning accuracy) After you do that a hundred or so times(talking about full forms or katas), you step it up moving to half speed, then to 3/4ths. By the time you are going full speed you aren't even thinking about the movements or precision. Muscle memory takes over. You become smooth. You fall into a rhythm. In my art we call it "flowing" or just "flow". Once you hit a certain point you don't even think about it anymore. Your body just sort of takes over.

I took to guns the same way. A lot of people I trained with kept pushing themselves to go faster and faster, and are always trying to beat "the clock". Using extra rounds to hit thier targets. I went about it differently. I was the slowest one in my classes when I started. But I always hit my targets. Towards the end of training, I was just about in the middle speed-wise (there are some phenominally great shooters out there) but I was scoring among the fastest shooters.

For regular training purposes, how do you diagnose which you need to work on?

I don't shoot competitively, my schedule doesn't allow me. But if you are concerned with speed, and getting faster. Join a local IDPA course.

I understand you are looking to get better and faster and are looking for a how-to. My best advise is find a qualified instructor. They can give you the ins and outs of shooting better.

Alternately if you want to go for just raw speed. Practice point shooting COM, especially at the hip. in the 7-10 yard range.

[Plink]

Work on accuracy first. Speed comes with practice. Once you can reliably hit with accuracy, it's easier to speed up your shots and do it. Speed without accuracy is meaningless. As they say, you can't miss fast enough.

[Jim Watson]

As said, self defense is normally a close range, rapid fire proposition.
Although somebody pointing a gun at you from any distance is assault with a deadly weapon and you should not limit yourself to what Chick Gaylord called "an affair of honor in a telephone booth."

You are kind of swinging in the wind with solitary practice and no guidelines except what you can pick up on the Net. Professional training from somebody who provides a practice and evaluation program for maintaining the skills and techniques they teach would be the best way to go.

Competition is a good way to add some stress in a safe and legal fashion, it no longer being socially acceptable to challenge Bad Bob to a gunfight on Main Street whenever you think you can beat him. IDPA "tactics" may not be what a name gunfighting academy will teach you, and IPSC doesn't even make a nod to them any more, but they will darn sure teach you to put rounds on target in a hurry. When that is an automatic process, you can give more attention to said tactics and not worry about the mechanics.

[Iggy]

Bill Jordan said "Smooth and Accurate, speed will come"

[dogloose]

Draw and fire practice is itself a learned skill. To do that properly with live fire usually takes a training class, the controlled environment of a "competition", or a private (safe) shooting area. If you have access to any of these... fine... practice your draw and fire skills.

For most of us... we are on a public range where draw from holster may not be permitted. So draw and "dry fire" at home is the option. However, there are several good live fire drills you can practice to build your speed and accuracy that will complement your (later) draw and live fire practice.

Here is a simple but very effective drill that I have found helped me:

Select the closest target distance permitted at your range (mine is a not so close 7 yards... 7 feet would be better!) Anyway... from a down-ready position (good two-hand grip, gun pointing down at the ground a few feet down range) quickly raise your gun to fire position just about neck/chin level and WITHOUT USING THE SIGHTS squeeze/fire one round. Check your target. Do it again. And again. And again. One shot at a time.

Here's what you want to accomplish. Imagine that there is a perfect position to rise to... one that enables you to hit center of mass on the target every time. You want to find that spot... AND LOCK IN... automatically every time. Remember... this is not bulls-eye accuracy... this is center of mass. Yes... you want good groups... and for this drill 6" will do the job. A pie plate in the center of the target can be your point of "aim". But remember... no aiming with the sights... point and shoot... observe your position and results... and find your lock in spot.

When you can do this at the close distance with one shot and consistently hit your target in 6" groups... you can move on to double taps... and all sorts of other drills (like two to the body... one to the head... etc.) But that one drill... getting your lock in spot up quickly and fire... that will serve you well.

Be safe.

[Chris Rhines]

To actually answer your question, what you want are par time drills.

We'll use one speed drill and one accuracy drill as an example.

Speed drill - on command, draw and fire six rounds into an IPSC Metric target at 3 yards, while retreating diagonally from the target.

Accuracy drill - on command, draw and fire six rounds into an IPSC Metric target at 25 yards.

Set a goal par time for each drill - 4.0 seconds is a good starting goal for either one. Practice one until you can consistently hit your par time. Then switch to the other drill and lower the par time by a quarter-second or so. Keep track of your times in your shooting journal.

You can use different drills, different targets, whatever. The point is to set goals and keep track of your progress in achieving them.

- Chris

Edit - I actually keep a spreadsheet containing an entry for every element of my shooting (draw, long-range precision, reloads, shooting on the move, barricades, weak-hand only, etc. More than 50 entries total.) Each entry also has a relative importance (ranked 1-10, 10 being most important) and my relative skill level (again ranked 1-10, 10 is best.) Using that spreadsheet, I can calculate the areas of my shooting that I'm weakest in and that are most important to my overall skill, and practice those the most. Not saying you have to go to this extreme, but it works for me.

[Lupinus]

It is kind of a multi part answer.

Self defense doesn't require pinpoint accuracy nor does it require lightning fast speed. What it requires is a mixture of enough speed to deploy your firearm quickly enough that you can use it, and enough accuracy that you can hit your target center of mass.

Faster and more accurate is most certianly better, but in a high stress situation you likely aren't going to run super fast or super accurate.

[Geronimo45]

25 and 50 yard shooting is more of a police/competion/just for heck of it activity than anything else... justifiable shootings probably won't be at those ranges - but anything's possible.
I like to go with the pieplate test - or the paper plate test, if you're a cheapskate. Empty your gun at your target, fast as you're able. If all the shots can be covered with a paper plate, you're doing reasonably good. That's not some silly "draw gun, achieve perfect isoscles/weaver. Line up sights, breath, fire" activity, it's a "draw, fire until empty." Bonus points if the gun is empty before the first empty brass hits the ground.

[MrChicken]

For speed you need a timer, as has been said 1.5 seconds for 2 shots at close range is considered a good benchmark. Practice moving while doing that. Chances are real good that you'll be looking at his weapon before you know to draw. Moving buys you time to get your gun into the fight.

How to practice? Dry practice with a consistent stance, grip, presentation and sight alignment. This builds muscle memory through repetition. If you can consistently present the weapon to a position that you have proper sight alignment, you can use target focus or point shooting very effectively. This is because you aligning the sights with target, but your focal point is on the target not the sights.

Accuracy is simpler, can you hit what you're aiming at? Accuracy boils down to two things, sight alignment and trigger control. TC is by far more important. Dry fire at a small target and watch the sight deflection as you press the trigger, get that down to as close to zero as you can. Once there work on speeding up the press.

Dry practice is the key. Range time validates training done as dry work.
Get your presentation cleaned up and smoothed out so you can get the gun into the fight ASAP. Work on your TC and SA so that you can hit what you're aiming at.

[Rich in VA]

Jim Watson sez: "IDPA "tactics" may not be what a name gunfighting academy will teach you, and IPSC doesn't even make a nod to them any more, but they will darn sure teach you to put rounds on target in a hurry. When that is an automatic process, you can give more attention to said tactics and not worry about the mechanics."

Excellent, absolutely perfect explanation. I may use that for a sig line if it's not copyrighted..........:)

And I don't feel that shooting fast AND accurately was ever a detriment in a real life situation. The better you are at gun handling skills, the easier it is to think tactically instead of having to worry about your draw or how to get the safety off if you do ever get into a for-real situation. As Jim said, it becomes an automatic process.

To echo a couple of posters, get a timer. You won't know when you improve, or if you do, or in what areas you need more improvement, until you have a means to compare today vs. last week. That's how you "diagnose what you need to work on" [sic] Dry fire, dry fire, dry fire. The better you are at this, the more comfortable you are at the range and on the street.

Rich

[1911 guy]

I spend a lot of time simply practicing the basics. Sight alignment, trigger control and malfunction drills. When I've got my 100 or so rounds downrange doing that, I'll spend an equal amount of time shooting whatever target I have, sometimes bullseyes and sometimes B-27 type, as fast as I can without "over running" my accuracy. If you start throwing shots, slow it down a tad. Try to shoot right on the edge of speed and acceptable accuracy. 10-rings not required, hitting paper is. I can only shoot at 25yd at my range and use an 8 1/2" X 11" sheet of paper sometimes. Shoot fast and keep them on the paper. COM at arms length will seem as big as a house.

The more you push your speed, the faster you'll get. I don't put much stock in timers for giving absolute feedback (<X=good, >X=bad), but the numbers will show you a base starting point and let you see measureable improvement.

[Jeff F]

I once read somewhere, someone said "go slow as fast as you can". I can't remember who it was that said that, they also said practice slow and smooth and speed will come. Make your shots count.

[HSMITH]

Lots of guys here have suggested to go slow and speed will come or accuracy first and speed will come, I think they are basically saying the same thing. While this has been the conventional way of approaching it for a LONG time, I don't think it is the way you want to approach it ALL the time or even most of the time.

You will never know where your personal boundries are until you push out to them and then PAST them. The key is doing it safely and learning from it. Every once in a while you need to go faster and faster until you are going absolutely as fast as you can, you need to push until it falls apart. This will establish where your skill level is, and help identify what needs the most work. There is no harm whatsoever in spraying rounds SAFELY all over the target, you just need to learn from it. Your rate of improvement will be a LOT better than if you just wait for the speed to come.

Push out until it falls apart to identify what you can and cannot do. Determine WHAT part of your shooting is holding you back. Pull back to where that part of your shooting works again and refine it going a little faster and a little faster each time. If it gets flaky pull back and refine it. This is a cycle that won't end if you really want to get as good as you can.

This all of course assumes that you put in at least as much dry fire as you do live fire. Refine the draw for instance in dry fire, slow motion reps will refine the movement, get things moving correctly, and high speed reps will train your body to execute that movement. Same thing for prep of the trigger on the draw and a good straight press the very instant the sights align on the target. Dryfire is the place to really hone these skills. Then take it to the range and MEASURE what you know.