Is this Legal?


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Werewolf
February 9, 2007, 02:58 PM
A friend in CA just acquired a couple of CA legal pistols. He can't buy mags with a capacity over 10 rounds for them. He's asked me to pick up some 17 rounders and send them to him.

Told him I would if it was legal. I have my doubts that it is and don't want to run afoul of CA law over this.

So would it be legal to buy mags and ship them to him?

Calling the Batmen wouldn't do any good they're federal. Would calling the CA AG work or would that anti-gun fatherless son of a female dog just say it's illegal even if it it wasn't.

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BigO01
February 9, 2007, 03:08 PM
Well many websites and catalogs sell these and they specify that they wont ship them to certain states so I would say that it is NOT legal for you to do it either .

Now as to what could happen to you I have no ideas as you aren't a business that can lose a license and I don't understand how a California law enforcement officer could come to your state and arrest you .

I quess it would make an interesting test case in court LOL .

If you have deep pockets to defend against the possable criminal charges give it a whirl and see what happens .

g5reality
February 9, 2007, 03:15 PM
I live in CA and it is illegal. Don't do it. Tell your friend if he wants mags with more than 10 rounds to take a drive to vegas and import them himself. It's still illegal but you'd be out of the loop.

I have a friend with pre ban 20 & 30 round Mags that we shoot with all the time. They are NOT date marked so...If your friend did have them and was at a range nothing would probably happen to him and I don't know how ANY LEO or court could determine you didn't have them in posession prior to the ban. Eg. If you replaced parts with new parts they would be legal. I read on another thread that it would come into effect if say he comitted a crime and was caught the mags the courts could give an extended sentance for posession.

pacodelahoya
February 9, 2007, 03:18 PM
If I'm not mistaken, Tommy Chong did two years for a similar transaction.(prohibited items interstate, not gun related items)

MrDig
February 9, 2007, 04:01 PM
Gee I wonder what kind of prohibited Items a citizen like Tommy Chong would traffic across state lines.:rolleyes:

Derby FALs
February 9, 2007, 04:21 PM
Glass pipes. Go figure...

Justin
February 9, 2007, 04:47 PM
When people are allowed to traffic in glass pipeware across interstate lines, the terrorists have clearly won.

For the original poster:

Shipping your buddy magazines that are illegal in CA isn't a good idea.

As I understand the law, in California you cannot possess magazines that weren't already in-state before the ban was passed.

CountGlockula
February 9, 2007, 04:50 PM
Your friend will go to jail if you send them.

LeoC
February 9, 2007, 05:06 PM
Don't do it. It is illegal to import 'high-capacity magazines" into California. Like g5reality said, tell your friend he can drive to Vegas (or Reno, depending which is closer) and buy them himself if he really wants them so bad. Let him risk his own hide doing it.

Oh, and tell him NOT to buy them at a gun show in NV, the CA DOJ has been known to do sting operations at NV gun shows, watching for CA license plates and following them back across the state border.

Non-date stamped mags are of course best. The burden of proof is on the CA DOJ to prove you did not own the mags before the ban. With some guns though it's easy for them to proove (like if the gun was released for sale after the CAliban took effect in 2000 so no pre-ban hi-cap mags exist).

I am not making any suggestions. You didn't get any ideas from me :neener:

Oleg Volk
February 9, 2007, 05:13 PM
Your friend will go to jail if you send them.

It would truly suck if someone were to mail CA-illegal magazines to prominent antis. Worse, if the boxes contained legitimate-looking receipts and the containers themselves were doctored to make them look "suspicious" and thus inviting Post Office scrutiny.

Zoogster
February 9, 2007, 05:23 PM
Illegal. He can travel outside of CA and purchase them himself legaly, but if he brings them back across state lines he has broken the law. I don't know if they legaly have jurisdiction over exporters, but they sure do over importers, and they could probably twist it to include you under the 'conspiracy' clause in CA which makes thinking or taking steps to commit any crime punishable the same as actualy doing the crime, even if no crime has been commited.

Example: Local thug observed loitering outside store with fellow thugs. Police arrive and seperate thugs and one admits that another one was planning to rob store with a BB gun that is otherwise legal. Entire group is now guilty of conspiracy to commit robbery, and likely firearm laws which are valid because they apply whenever someone is made to believe it is a real firearm. No crime was ever commited but based on intent they are guilty and punishable the same as if they had actualy commited the crime they are guilty of conspiring to commit, even members of the thug group not planning to participate are guilty by association and presumed knowledge of conspiracy. I use this specific example because I remember just such a case were a group of inner city black youths were arrested and given Youth Authority/state prison sentences for that exact crime. It interested me because it struck me as a borderline thought police action so I followed the story.

So are you already guilty of conspiring to commit a CA felony by conspiring to import illegal magazines? Maybe an enhancement of conspiring to use the Postal Service to commit a felony as well?

Now as to what could happen to you I have no ideas as you aren't a business that can lose a license and I don't understand how a California law enforcement officer could come to your state and arrest you .

It is called extradition, rendition. CA requests him for commiting a felony in the state of CA, and he has an extradition procedure which he can proceed with or waive it and be shipped directly to CA. As far as I know all states in the US have extradition agreements. If you break the law of one state they can ask for you to be shipped over under US law. The days of crossing state borders and being safe ended long ago. Well breaking the law of one state while in another would be a grey area that would require a lot of financing to figure out, but I can see it easily going in favor of the law which was actualy physicly broken in CA territory when the items arrived, as opposed to him being immune from CA law being outside of CA. Physicly the crime would have been commited in CA.

musher
February 9, 2007, 05:44 PM
Oleg,

wow.

Your genius is disturbing.

Please don't be my enemy!

Charles Martel
February 9, 2007, 06:46 PM
Man I'm glad I don't live in California!

DoubleTapDrew
February 9, 2007, 07:41 PM
It would truly suck if someone were to mail CA-illegal magazines to prominent antis. Worse, if the boxes contained legitimate-looking receipts and the containers themselves were doctored to make them look "suspicious" and thus inviting Post Office scrutiny.

Like send a care package of 10 "LE/Military Only" marked mags to Feinstein? :evil:

WheelGunMom
February 9, 2007, 07:46 PM
There's a gun shop, That won't be named, in vegas just down the block from the tropicana.

Better wear comfortable shoes -- it's actually about 3 - 4 miles "down the block" from the Tropicana Hotel ;)

ArfinGreebly
February 9, 2007, 07:52 PM
Let us not lead our friend into temptation.

Please.

[snip]

The problem with the OP is that "just acquired" sounds new. With a pistol of recent design, there's little likelihood that there would be any "older" compatible mags around.

This looks like a losing scenario.

Recommendation: Eject.

Prince Yamato
February 9, 2007, 08:15 PM
EDIT: The Prince knows NOTHING of this so-called California!

R.H. Lee
February 9, 2007, 08:16 PM
Apparently your friend doesn't know that California actively and aggressively enforces the 10 round mag law. Not only at the state but also at the local level. And with undercover LEO's no less.

It's a stupid move, IMO.

Standing Wolf
February 9, 2007, 08:45 PM
Where does it say all that in the Second Amendment?

Axman
February 9, 2007, 09:38 PM
Of course, it takes more than ten rounds to kill somebody, right? :evil:

Werewolf
February 9, 2007, 09:46 PM
Thanks guys...

Look likes buying him mags is a no go.

pacodelahoya
February 9, 2007, 10:10 PM
Now Standing Wolf, don't go letting the Bill of Rights get in the way of reality you crazy nut you.:D :evil:

Art Eatman
February 9, 2007, 10:28 PM
Do not explain how to avoid the law. Do not explain how others have avoided the law. Do not advocate "getting around" some law.

Yes, some laws are useless, and promulgated by irrational people. That's beside the point.

THR does not condone any law-breaking of any sort. In print.

Art

Robert Hairless
February 9, 2007, 10:42 PM
I am confused.

There's no question that the friend should comply with California's laws: he is a California resident. But why would the original poster in this thread be bound by California law if he is not a California resident nor within the borders of California?

Not trying to be difficult. I just don't understand.

Art Eatman
February 9, 2007, 10:51 PM
Robert, think, "Conspiracy." Think, "Aiding and abetting in the commission of a crime." The "commission of a crime" would be the acquisition of an illegal item by a California citizen.

The state of residence of the person providing the illegal-in-California magazine to the Californian doesn't matter.

Art

HankB
February 10, 2007, 10:41 AM
Breaking the law is wrong.

But many people, anticipating a future magazine ban, purchased magazines for firearms that they didn't even have at the time. Thus, the magazines were properly "grandfathered" even if the firearm to use them wasn't to be purchased for quite some time. Unfortunately, it is virtually impossible for LEOs to identify non-dated magazines as "pre-ban, grandfathered" or "illegally post-ban obtained" magazines.

Obviously, as already stated, advance purchases of magazines would not have been possible if the newly-acquired firearm used magazines not available in the pre-ban world.

Have your friend look around his junk drawers - it may be possible he already has some suitable standard-capacity magazines.

Biker
February 10, 2007, 10:50 AM
Hah! Hank, you shoulda been a lawyer.

Biker

cane
February 10, 2007, 01:23 PM
I'm confused, I live in Texas, and am familiar with Texas laws. I don't frequent internet websites about guns and or shooting, in fact I don't even own a computer. An old friend from the military now lives in California and knows I have some over 10 round magazines that fits his pistol. "Bill" sends me a letter and asks me to sell him some of my magazines. I do so, blissfully ignorant of California laws. Since I had no criminal intent, how can California charge me with anything?

tinygnat219
February 10, 2007, 01:29 PM
Think Mail Fraud if you mail them. Don't do it, then it's federal crimes and KommieFornia Crimes.

g5reality
February 10, 2007, 05:31 PM
Large Capacity Magazine Restrictions and Exemptions (Penal Code Section 12020)
A large capacity magazine is defined as “any ammunition feeding device with a capacity to accept more than 10 rounds but shall not be construed to include a feeding device that is permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds nor shall it include any .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device (or, effective January 1, 2002, a tubular magazine contained in a lever-action firearm).” It is important to understand that
a large capacity feeding device may be detachable or fixed, and includes any tube ammunition feeding device (other than .22 caliber or, effective January 1, 2002, a tubular magazine contained in a lever-action firearm) that
can accommodate more than 10 rounds. A large capacity magazine also includes linked ammunition with more than 10 rounds linked together or an ammunition belt with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
Possession of large capacity magazines, whether by peace officers or private citizens, is not controlled.
The manufacturing, importation into the state, offering for sale, keeping for sale, exposing for sale, giving, and lending of a large capacity magazine is controlled. No person may participate in these activities without a permit issued by the Department of Justice. For exceptions, see Penal Code §§12020(b)(19)-(32).
Specified law enforcement agencies and their employees are exempt from these restrictions. These agencies and employees include any federal, state, county, city and county, or city, law enforcement agencies and employees
of those agencies while discharging their official duties, whether on-duty or off-duty, where the use is authorized by the agency within the scope of their duties. This exemption includes the sale of, giving of, lending of, importation into the state, or purchase of any large capacity magazine.

Peace officers (distinct from law enforcement agencies) who are authorized to carry firearms in the course and scope or their duties are exempted. This exemption includes the sale to, lending to, purchase of, purchase by,
receipt of, or importation into the state of large capacity magazines. For record keeping purposes, a peace officer who purchases large capacity magazines from a firearms dealer is required to provide that firearms
dealer with a copy of his or her peace officer photo identification. In the event the magazine is stamped “RESTRICTED LAW ENFORCEMENT/GOVERNMENT USE ONLY,” federal regulations require the law
enforcement officer to provide the firearms dealer with: 1) A written statement from the officer, under penalty of perjury, that the magazine is being purchased for use in performing official duties and the it is not being
acquired for personal use or for purposes of transfer or resale; and 2) a written statement from a supervisor of the purchasing officer, stating under penalty of perjury that the officer is acquiring the magazine for use in
official duties, that the magazine is suitable for use in performing official duties, and that the magazine is not being acquired for personal use or for purposes of transfer or resale.
Other allowances are made for firearms dealers; the loaning of large capacity magazines under specified conditions; the importation into the state of previously owned magazines by residents who lawfully possessed those magazines prior to January 1, 2000 and who lawfully took them out of the state; the repair of magazines; importation of large capacity magazine by permitted individuals; the armored car industry; manufacturing large
capacity magazines for specified purposes; and prop masters (Penal Code §§ 12020(b)(21)-(32)).
Punishment – Felony or Misdemeanor. (Penal Code § 12020(a)(2))
Law Enforcement Exemption – Agencies and sworn peace officers. (Penal Code §§ 12020(b)(19), (20))

http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/forms/pdf/awguide.pdf

Therefore YOU CAN LEGALLY posess a 20, 30, 50 or 100 round magazine in California, if you had it pre-ban, before January 1, 2000 even if you took it out of state and return.

HankB
February 15, 2007, 09:56 PM
Hah! Hank, you shoulda been a lawyer.Hey . . . that's a nasty thing to say - when did I ever insult YOU?

;)


It's also my understanding that it's OK to REPAIR a pre-ban mag. So replacing a bad magazine tube with a new one is OK. Replacing an old magazine spring with a new one is OK. Ditto for the follower or floorplate. So it is probably OK to ship replacement/repair parts to CA.

But of course, buying a new magazine tube, floorplate, spring, and follower, and putting them together to make a new magazine would probably be considered illegal manufacture, so one ought not be caught doing so.

Roccobro
February 15, 2007, 10:26 PM
But of course, buying a new magazine tube, floorplate, spring, and follower, and putting them together to make a new magazine would probably be considered illegal manufacture, so one ought not be caught doing so.

Good info, thats almost exactly what I put in my post a few days ago. But mine was deleted before the next day...

Justin

Valkman
February 15, 2007, 10:40 PM
I have had a Cali resident order non-dated mags from 44mag.com and have them shipped to my house. Then when he visited for SHOT he picked them up. I would not send them into CA but if he wants to take them in that's fine. Since they're non-dated no one can tell when he bought them. :)

Zoogster
February 16, 2007, 01:59 AM
Since they're non-dated no one can tell when he bought them.
Perhaps, unless they are using a different polymer mix, different alloy, or different design or part that they didn't in a year prior to the ban, and a over zelous prosecutor does not use "experts" to testify to that fact, perhaps a company representative themselves. That says nothing of financial records which can be obtained with a subpoena. Did he order them with his credit card? Do you not think the company has a history of its customer transactions?

It is less likely and harder to tell when he bought them, not necessarily impossible.

gunsmith
February 16, 2007, 02:20 AM
I had a high power clone in 9mm, I bought some hi power mags in
.40 by accident but it seemed to work just fine, in fact they held
11 rounds of 9mm, with one in the chamber that made 12.

I bet many other guns work the same way.

Oh afaik it is a felony to sell him mags or send in the mail.
it is a felony for him to go buy some him self, he could have a storage unit in NV
and keep them there I guess...or he could do what I did...move!

Stretchman
February 16, 2007, 02:50 AM
Possession of large capacity magazines, whether by peace officers or private citizens, is not controlled.

Once he's out the door, or in this case, in the door. It's over. But man, be paranoid. They'll get you if they can.

Professor K
February 16, 2007, 05:11 PM
Well unless your friend is an ATF agent or is working with them, it's not likely for anything to happen at all. If he gets in trouble, remember, he got them in Vegas.

This is illegal, so like, you're not supposed to do it. So umm, it's your choice on whether you want to do it or not, but it's illegal.

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