[marklbucla]

What's the deal with the cutout on top of the 870P receiver? It feels unnatural to shoot the gun because of the different sight picture as compared to other bead sighted shotguns. Why did they design it that way?

[dfariswheel]

I assume you mean the groove running full length of the receiver top?

If so, that's a sighting rib to help the eye align the gun.
When shooting flying targets with a shotgun, you "point" the gun.
On sporting model Wingmaster guns, the groove is usually given a machine matted surface.

This helps when sighting, cuts glare, and the matted groove gives rib-equipped guns the illusion that the rib runs from the eye to the muzzle.
This helps direct the eye straight down the barrel.

Since Police guns are also often shot by instinctive "pointing", the groove helps on combat guns too.
To lessen the cost, Remington stopped applying the machine matting on Police guns since the rough parkerized surface serves the same purpose.

Usually the matted surface or groove is only found on newer, more expensive brand guns.

[marklbucla]

I find myself hitting low because my other 870s haven't had that groove. I keep wanting to align the bead right on top of the receiver, like you ought to on other shotguns.

[Red Label]

If you have noticed almost every shotgun will have a different sight picture anyway. I even notice it among my 870s. My old 20ga Wingmaster had a straight rib. My newer 20ga Express has a ramped rib which I hate but I have gotten used to it. My 12ga TB Trap model obviously is completely different because of the high comb. All of these are also different than my old Winchesters. Each gun just takes a little time to get accustomed to:)

[sm]

To add to what dfariswheel shared in regard to shotguns being "pointed" not aimed...

Plain barrels do not have a rib. This how many shotguns used to be, and not just the 870.

-The "groove" or "matte" finish alleviates glare which might distract in pointing a shotgun.
- On Pre-mounted guns, allows one to check to see if they are canting the gun.
Now gun fit, and correct basic fundamental ingrained through repetition of correct mounting to face / quality practice shooting/ shooting a lot - alleviates / lessens the chance of this occurring.

-Aiming. Now this is used for stationary targets such as wild turkey, card shooters [another name is "turkey shoot"] where one shoots a "card" and the idea is to hit the "X" , or get closest to win a frozen turkey, Slug shooting at l-o-n-g distance and similar exceptions where a shotgun is aimed.

My contention is - lots of folks are more hindered in learning shotguns today because of vent ribs, screw in chokes and various sight systems on shotguns.

I was Mentored and learned to shoot a plain barrel , fixed choked , shotgun with NO bead(s).

Gun fit , correct basic fundamentals, pattern board work, lots of repetitions of mounting gun to face [I was taught to shoot from low gun - not pre-mount ] , and lots of rounds downrange on moving targets, along with other "old school" shotgunning lessons.

My preference today, is to still assist a new shooter with a plain barrel, no rib, no bead shotgun with a fixed choke .

I do this by busting the sights of a BB gun and the student shoots ping pong balls, from low gun, I call out "left" , "right" , or even toss these out and the student does not know when I am going to toss, or where.

With the shotgun that fits student, no rib, no bead, I toss out tennis balls, or will have the trap thrower blind to them and just let a clay go...

Programming the human computer if you will.

:)

[marklbucla]

Let me bring this one back to life and ask a follow up question. Either way, I'm thinking that guns are going to be sold over the response. I don't like the idea of confusing myself with the different sight picture and now that I've had the opportunities to try out different things, I'm trying to consolidate down to the "only 1 gun" (in multiple identical copies) philosophy.

I've got three other Remingtons that do not have the cutout along the top of the receiver. I'm used to them, I like them, it works for me.

There are also benefits mentioned to the cutout on the top of the receiver.

Do I:

A) Sell the three without the cutout on the receiver and get used to my 870P and probably pickup a second (or two)

B) Ditch the 870P and stick with what already is comfortable to me, despite losing the advantages to the cutout in the receiver.

[Robert Hairless]

I heartily endorse your Option C, which by some oversight you neglected to include.

C) Train yourself to "see forward" on all of those shotguns and keep them all.

From here to there a shotgun is, as SM said, a pointing firearm. It's not an aiming firearm until your target is from there to way over there and you're using slugs that need to impact a specific place.

So, if you're following me, there is no such thing as a "sight picture" when you're shooting from here to there, about 25 yards away. The thingie on the front of the shotgun barrel--the bead, or front blade, or whatever is stuck there--serves to show you where the barrel ends.

As an intelligent person you can figure out where the barrel ends even without that front thingie, so you don't even need it and you're not using it to sight anyway because you're not sighting: you're pointing.

When the shotgun fits you correctly and you're holding it correctly all you're doing is aligning your eye somewhere slightly over and along the barrel top. Throw the shotgun to your shoulder and it should go right into the pocket, and your eye should be right where it's supposed to be. You don't use or need the thingies on the top of the barrel, and you shouldn't be aware of them. If you're trying to hit a moving target, it doesn't matter how much the target bobs, weaves, jumps, or ducks: the shotgun is part of you and that barrel always is where it's supposed to be. This does not take a heck of a lot of smarts (no offense intended) because you're letting the shotgun do the real work. You're basically just carrying, feeding, and pointing the thing while you tell it to go or not go.

Trust me on this: if it took any brains to do it I'd be reading a book or watching an old movie instead. I don't know how to think it but I can shoot it. Ask me how I did it and watch me turn into a stammering moron. I don't know. The shotgun does it and I'm not inclined to ask how as long as it continues to do it. My bargain with the shotgun is that I hold it, feed it ammunition, and look where the shot is supposed to go. Then I pull the trigger and the shot goes there. That's good enough for me. Thinking is much too hard and too much like work. So I can't even say for sure what the top of my shotguns look like. They're there, and that's all I need to know.

That's from here to there. From there to way out there I need to aim. That's work, so I use some kind of sights to help. I have rifle sights on most of my there to way out there shotguns, and I think I'm using them sort of like the way I use a rifle. I have ghost rings on one of them. I still probably use them sort of like the way I use a rifle. When the holes stop appearing where they're supposed to appear I might try to get more serious about figuring out the sights on a shotgun. Right now I just pretend that I know what I'm doing. When in doubt, fake it.

That's what I think and I'm probably wrong about all the above. But if I were in your shoes and liked those shotguns I'd keep them all and just focus on putting holes in what I shoot. Leave complexities behind and enjoy.

[Dave McCracken]

I agree with Rob't. Train yourself to look at the target, not the shotgun. The only time I do on purpose is when slugshooting.

[marklbucla]

there is no such thing as a "sight picture" when you're shooting from here to there, about 25 yards away.

But that's the thing I should have mentioned earlier. All of my shotguns are uh, social as Dave McC would say. None of my shotguns are used for clay targets, so I'm only looking at targets maybe 15 yards away, max. At these short distances, I'm very much aware of what's on the front of my barrel, even though I'm "pointing at the target" as you say.

Though my targets are clear and I am focused on them, because of these short distances I am still somewhat aware of the bead at the front to a point where it's getting distracting and slows me down a bit.

[Robert Hairless]

I understand your problem, Mark. But it's not a hardware problem. It's a software problem.

I can't know how much training or experience you've had with social shotguns so please forgive me if I seem to be stepping on your toes. If you're distracted by the bead or anything else on your barrel you're just not doing it right.

This might be hard to believe but I don't know whether all my Remington 870s have that cutout you mention. I happen to have one here right now--the one I've owned since rocks were a novelty--and I didn't know it had that cutout until you mentioned it and I looked. Who, basically, cares.

Somewhere in that lengthy message I wrote I think I said something like "look forward." What I mean is that you must learn to just not see all that crap on the barrels. That's all it is until you need it for long range shooting. When you don't need it, don't see it. And when you don't see it, it can't distract you because it's just not there. Look past it and ignore it. It's not there when you do it right. Look forward to the target so your eye just catches the muzzle end of the barrel as the vaguest of impressions and keep shooting. Sooner or later--sooner, probably, if you're following what I'm trying to say--the barrel itself becomes an impressionistic pair of parallel lines that are the sighting thing. You absorb how that impression is supposed to appear when you're doing it right, and you let the engineer in your head make sure that those vague parallels are pointing in the right direction each time you pull the trigger.

If the shotgun fits you properly and you hold it properly you can't miss, and you can shoot like the wind without even noticing what's on top of the barrel. It's irrelevant except at long ranges. You become a shooting machine--a tank, with the upper part of your body as the turret and the lower part as whatever it is that moves the turrent around the terrain. The shotgun is part of you, you're part of it, and together you're a unified machine.

Perhaps you're overthinking things. There's no thinking involved in this except the little that is required to track the target while the rest of the brain devotes itself to important matters such as what to have for lunch. A target is identified, the shotgun points at it, the trigger gets pulled, there's a noise, that target gets a hole or isn't there anymore and you're on to the next one while thinking about whether there might be time for a hamburger or only enough for a cold sandwich.

I've been talking exclusively about social situtions, by the way.

[Zoogster]

I have found the cutout to be very helpful with slug shooting even with just a bead. The cutout and the bead can be used much like ironsights without the need to actualy put sights on the firearm or interfering with point shooting with shot.

[Black_Talon]

AFAIK, all 870's have had the grooved receiver top, until they started cheapening them with the "Express" line. This was nothing but a cost-cutting move. Over the years, I've owned 870's from every decade, and have never had one that didn't have the grooves in the receiver. I have never owned anything other than a Wingmaster or Police gun though.