[firestar]

Don't we have enough cals to do the jobs that we want? Why are companies focusing on trying to market new calibers when what we really need are better designs to shoot the cals that we already have?

I am not against new products or anything and every once in a while a new cal comes along that seems to fill a niche for people, the .40S&W comes to mind. What I don't like is when they introduce a new cal just to corner the market on the ammo so they can sell it at premium prices without any competition. 9mm is cheap because it has been around long enough that everyone is making ammo for it and that drives the price down as companies compeat.

There are a lot of guns that people are just waiting on gun companies to make but for some reason they are slow to make them. It seems like they would rather come out with some stupid new caliber to shove down our throats like that 45Glock:barf: .

[Mike Irwin]

People have been asking that for 100 years or more.

That's like asking "do we really need a better mousetrap?"

Obviously the answer is yes, as so many people keep coming out with new designs.

But the old designs just seem to soldier on...

[Old Fuff]

I'm not sure Gaston Glock (who I know slightly) sees things the way you do. Yes, a lot of people would like him to build a full and mid-sized .45 pistol with a single-column magazine. That would require a whole new frame though, and while the frames themselves are not costly the necessary tooling is. Once made the frame(s) will work for the .45 ACP and .38 Super as well as (maybe) the 10 mm. Auto. But the latter two are not likely to be big sellers.

The .45 Glock - like the .40 S&W - are designed to allow a bigger round in exsistant 9mm/.40 S&W size frames. Tooling a pistol in .45 Glock will cost a fraction of what it would cost to make a single-column .45, and yet offer most if not all of the performance of a .45 ACP using a 200 grain bullet or lighter.

Glock can also pick up some business in those countries that don't allow civilians to have a pistol chambered for a "military cartridge." This probably doesn't matter to you or I, but it does to a company with international accounts.

I am sure other companies that make 9mm/.40 S&W caliber pistols - especially compact ones - are going to give this cartridge a hard look. While the length of the "older .45" prevents it from being used in their guns the .45 Glock is another story. Lets wait a couple of years and see if the new-boy-on-the-block really turns out to be so useless.

[S_O_Laban]

If everybody shot only 45acp the world would be a boring place:D Seriously, I think the free market does a good job of deciding if new things make good sense or not. Obviously marketing plays a role in what makes it but over time the truth or utility of anything new is tested. Just my 2cents.

[firestar]

I don't know the future but I know this, there is no way on God's green earth that the .45Glock is going to be the next big thing! It is a retarded idea that I can only assume was invented by retards! Pardon my crude language but why in hell would anyone buy a slightly shorter .45 that offers nothing ballistically? Why don't they make a .40Glock that is 1/10th of an inch shorter so they can "corner" the market on that too?:rolleyes: Heck, maybe I should do it if it is going to be such a big hit.:D

I will place a bet right now that states that the new 45Glock will be a flop. I would be surprised if ANY company other than Glock comes out with a gun chambered for it.

[HerbG]

Do we "need" any new calibers?

NO, but that doesn't mean we aren't going to get them anyway! As long as gun and ammo makers figure it will help their bottom line, they're going to introduce them.

[Monte Harrison]

Guns last a LONG time. Manufacturers can't stay in business without new sales. So to stimulate new sales, they have to come up with "new and improved" product, even if the role the new product fills is performed just as well by other products already on the market.

[BigG]

I agree with Old Fuff about the applicability of a 45 round that will fit into a 19/23 frame.

Also about the bottom line comments. We are in the MARKETING ERA.

If we look at our "needs" (food shelter clothing etc) they can all be satisfied rather easily in this day and age. What the marketeer endeavors to do is to convince us our WANTS are our NEEDS. They are pretty dang successful at doing that, too, imho. :uhoh:

[Double Naught Spy]

And to add to what Monte said, the new products and calibers are often marketed with some sort of newly described or more specific sort of niche in the gun world. Generally speaking for this type of product, most civlian new niche calibers have very small niches to fill and not that many people who actually need the new calibers. So marketing comes in and helps us all to know just how much we need a new caliber to obviously do a job all the other calibers can't do quite as well...especially if you don't know about the other calibers.

My two favorites are the .17 hmr and the NAA .32 super (or whatever it is called, .32 from a necked down .380). I am not sure of the practicality of the .17 hmr. I keep seeing it as a great varmit caliber, as if .22 lr or .223 weren't already handling the varmiting niche. Obviously, the .22 lr is much cheaper and one can attain better range with the .223. So the .17 hmr gives better range than a .22 lr, but at a higher price, and with less range than a .223. How is that for a specialized niche?

I really have no idea why the NAA .32 super came out. The .32 and .380 versions are the same size (from what I have read) and so the NAA .32 super gives you more power than a regular .32, but produces a hole smaller than the .380. Any way around it, it still isn't a great defense ammo.

[45King]

Do we need any more calibers? Heck no; we could probably eliminate about 80% of the calibers out there and still be able to accomplish any shooting chore we might find.

The bottom line is not about need; it's all about marketing. Every company needs something to sell, and a new caliber can increase sales. Never mind that there may already be numerous cartridges that are similar in performance; it's simply another way of increasing profits.

$$$$$ is the bottom line.

[BigG]

Monte's point is well on the mark: My dad has a gun over 70 years old in 95% condition and beautiful to behold. It happens to be chambered in 32 Remington, an obsolete cartridge. The Remington rimless family consisted of 25/30/32 and 35 caliber variants meant to compete with the Winchester lever action 30/30 class cartridges. Only the 35 Rem remains alive. :o

There were guns sold during my youth chambered for 22 Jet, 256 Magnum, 357 Maximum, 5mm RF Magnum; Caseless 22, 358 Winchester, 264 Winchester, 6.5 Rem Mag, 350 Rem Mag, etc. All were touted as the latest and greatest at time of release and guns were sold on the strengths of their advertised merits. Now all are either dead or on their last gasps. :( Some of today's offerings will join their brethren in the graveyard, I'm sure. :(

[Skunkabilly]

I don't think that anything (other than stupid laws) are being pushed down my throat....it's a free market, I can choose to or not to buy the .45 Glock, .357 Sig or whatever WSSM WSM RSM RSSM etc. round.

I don't even have a .45 anymore...

[Tamara]

That depends. Are they really cool calibers? ;)

[sm]

Need vs Want.

Don't know about about the rest of the members, I don't need anymore calibers, per se'

I DO have a real bad WANT for a 9X23 in a single stack 1911. commander size may just be the perfect carry gun. I like the way the one I've been playing with will knock down a popper...even at 100 yds...Neat!!!

As usual, need vs want opens up a whole new can of worms.

[dude]

.............now that the .17HMR is here, I do not 'need' anymore of them!


This new .45 Glock thing will have no effect on me.

[sw442642]

Why are there new books or tv shows? I'm sure there are classics you haven't read and one can watch I Love Lucy forever.

It's capitalism. See if the market works. If it doesn't - good bye.

The 40 SW took off, the 10mm, 356 TSW didn't. We will see with the 45 Glock. What it needs is cheap ammo and more guns in it.

[Solinvictus70]

Don't forget the old .41 AE round. I would especially like to see the 5.45x39 Russian round take off, because I want an SAR3 :D .

[Dave R]

Yeah, there are cartridges all along the spectrums of size/velocity/power. But tastes change.

.17's are a new trend that seem to work real well on varmits.

Short, fat magnums seem to offer a tad more accuracy than their longer predecessors.

Bottleneck pistol cartridges are supposed to feed more reliably than their tapered or straight-walled cousins.

Quiet cartridges seem to be finding a niche in suburban pest control.

Its all just tweaking the criteria looking for a small improvement. Or trying to start or capitalize on "fashion trends".

[Mike Irwin]

".17's are a new trend that seem to work real well on varmits."

A new trend that's been in the making for over 40 years, now...

[firestar]

What I find really funny are all the new rifle cartridges that seem to come out. They will have a write up in a gun rag and show the new cal next to two other, older ones that look exactly the same and are ballistically extremly similar. Maybe the new cal has 100fps more but the bullet is 20 grains less or somthing, its really stupid. The "new and improved" short, fat rifle cartridges are just my point. They offer nothing ballistically but they are NEW! Whoopie!

The way the free market works is, the sellers sell their products for as much as the market will bear. It is preditory and the consumer is the prey (or at least his money). What we have to do to protect ourself from being gouged is, don't let them put us in a position where they can dictate the price we must pay. We need to encourage competition. If you buy a new cal and only one company is making the ammo, you will pay whatever they tell you to pay. If 15 ammo companies start making ammo for it, you will only pay what the lowest seller is charging.

If they come out with truly improved cartridges, I am all for it, it is just when they are clearly trying to corner a market on something of questionable usefullness that I get leary. I like the idea of the .380 necked down .32cal, it seems like a great concept. Bottle necked cartridges seem to feed well in semi-auto pistols so it makes for a more realiable self defense handgun. Also it is .32 bullet traveling at high speed, kind of reminds me of a baby 7.62x25mm. :D

[Penforhire]

Firestar, funny, I was thinking the new WSSM short magnums rifle cartridges are exactly a good reason to make new calibers. They are an improvement for several reasons (less powder for same velocity, less variation in velocity, shorter overall length for given barrel length, and supposedly better accuracy from shorter actions). Improvement is good.

Now if all the old fogeys with "full-length" cartridges will please dispose of their existing rifles we can get on with mass production and cost reduction. :)

At the same time I understand your point and I'm another person who thinks a Glock 45 would be absurd. Buy a double-stack if you want capacity. Need thin grips? 357 Sig and 40 S&W are calling your name, or buy extended length mags, or thin grip panels, or ...

[Carbon_15]

why in hell would anyone buy a slightly shorter .45 that offers nothing ballistically
So they can get the ballistics of the .45ACP in a smaller framed gun. I personaly find the Glock 20/21 frames comfortable, but not everyone can wrap their hands around the big Glocks. I doubt I will buy the new Glock, but I can see the niche for it.


BTW, your use of the word "retard" in a civilized discusion kinda makes you sound like one.

[Mornard]

New Calibers=sales. Period. Not that there's anything wrong with that format, but that's why manufacturers keep coming up with new stuff. (Like the Remington electric rifle) many of these are answers to problems that don't exist!

My humble prediction - the first new(er) round to die off or be killed off, will be the .260 Remington. A fine caliber? Well, it does stuff like kill deer, which only about 47 other calibers already do well. It has a catchy? number for a name, but where does it excell, or even match current offerings? It's a gimmick, and we love to buy gimmicks - like a Daredevle spoon in yellow, with red diamonds on it - works better than the red+white striped ones? Dunno, but we love to buy one of everything... (I'm not pointing fingers - got em both)



Rule NO. 1 - Always own a .45 ACP.

[Atticus]

I'm all for whatever the market will support.

OTH: I still can't figure out all these Winchester utlra- extra ultra-super duper ultra- etc. cartridges. Seems a bit redundant to me.
Good way to sell rifles chambered for them I guess.:rolleyes:

[Ala Dan]

Greeting's All-

Respectfully, I don't think I need any more caliber's;
I just need to learn to shoot what I've got!:uhoh:

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[Andrew Wyatt]

four words.


.45 caliber browning hi-power. 'nuff said.

[BigG]

Yes. I really need them to design a .14/378 Weatherby. There is a mouse I'm dying to try it on.

[Matt G]

While I don't percieve a real need for some new calibers, I don't understand the huhu about them from those who don't need 'em. Unless you can: [a]show a drawback to them, and
[b]show that it is being shoved down your throat against your will (eg: you're a cop whose agency is adopting weapons in the new inefficient round for issue),
...I just don't see a problem.

.38 Super was a plagued cartridge until they started making barrels for it that headspaced on the case mouth. The modern version would have to be the .357 Sig.

The market competed for .40's back when. The .41 AE went away, the 10mm stayed (kinda), and the .40 was spawned. Oh, yeah: that was the platform for the aforementioned .357 Sig, which is a keeper.

Back in the day, everyone and his dog seemed to carry naught but the .38 special. It was the standard in the police industry, in the 158g LRN, no less (or no more, rather)! Well, you had a certain homogeneous-ness to cartridges in use at the time, and don't you look wistfully bak to those days? :rolleyes:

Gimme the world of nutty off-beat tryouts. You and I are the judges, and if the cartridge is a winner, we get to say so. Tell me that's not phun! :)

-M.G.

[Atticus]

"why the .45 glock is neat.
four words.


.45 caliber browning hi-power. 'nuff said."


Andrew - CZ97 :D

[Andrew Wyatt]

that's double action and way, way fatter than a hi-power.

[Atticus]

True. But it exists.

[Andrew Wyatt]

it's also not a hi power.


the safety is in a different spot. the slide is inside the frame instead of outside, andnone of the parts interchange with a hi power.

[Atticus]

No, but if a HP was converted to .45, it would no longer be a HP. :D

Seriously though, a .45 acp HP would be awesome.

[Andrew Wyatt]

but with the .45 glock, you don't have to compromize the handling qualities or frame size. you'd just need to change the magazine, barrel and slide.

[Atticus]

But the Glock started out bad...unlike the HP.

Just kidding Glocksters!

[Dave R]

"No, but if a HP was converted to .45, it would no longer be a HP."

Yup. It would be a 1911.;)

I guess a double-stack 1911, to get technical. Doesn't Para-Ordinance make one? Anyone else?

[Byron Quick]

It seems like they would rather come out with some stupid new caliber to shove down our throats like that 45Glock .

Who shoved one down your throat? I'd take a warrant out to have them arrested for assault with intent to kill.:rolleyes:

It's not a question of need...it's a question of want.

And if you don't want it...don't buy it.

Thus far, I have about 20 different calibers. Just think how many I'm lacking:D

And who knows? Someone just might build the better mousetrap...but that won't happen if innovation and experimentation is stifled, now will it?

[Carbon_15]

I have to agree...A gun with the exact dimensions and handling charactaristics of the HP with the ballistics of a .45 would be nice. The .45Glock opens up alot of doors. .45glock Beretta 92's, .45Glock CZ-75's, etc. All of the guns that have perfect fit and feel, now chambered for a more capable cartridge. I for one can't wait.

The big IF is, will the .45glock actualy duplicate the power of the .45ACP with a 200 grain pill????

[Old Fuff]

Carbon_15:

Yes it will. When modern powers are used the regular .45 ACP case has more capacity then's necessary. When the case was shortened all they did was eliminate air-space. The case head on the .45 Glock will also be heavier for better support.