[Abe]

So I decide to get my oldest son a shotgun for his birthday. Settle on a Remington 870 Express Youth. Go to Gander Mountain to purchase it. They have the model I want, price is right, checkbook in hand, I'm ready to go. Clerk wants to ring up the sale before filling out the 4473. Seems odd but OK. He hands me the 4473 and starts ringing up the sale. Meanwhile, I fill out the 4473 and hand it back to him. Now the fun begins...first, he says "U.S.A" isn't correct, I need to spell out "United States of America". :what: OK. Scribble it out, initial it, and write it out. Then I abbreviated "North" in my address, with "N." Ok. Scribble it out, initial it, and write it out. In the clear? Nope. Next I abbreviated the state in my address. Ok. Scribble it out, initial it, and write it out. He goes away to get the approval. In the clear? Nope, he comes back to me. I abbreviated my state of birth. At this point I gotta say something. I say that I've filled out at least a dozen 4473's and never had these problems. Response is the standard "store policy" and "rules and regulations" blah, blah, blah. Finally, all is well and he goes to get the approval. Think I'm in the clear yet?? Nope, as I'm walking away he forgot to get my phone number. Ok. Guess where he writes it? In the blank space along the top of the form!! :banghead: After all the concern about precision on the rest of the form there isn't even a space for a phone number!! Reminds me of the old MASH line: "Oh just use the standard S-1798 and write in 'pizza' where it says 'machine gun'".

I'm not picking on the poor old sales guy. I understand the JBT ( I mean BATF) could probably hassle them for abbreviating "U.S.A." but this seems like a bit much.

I guess I should just be happy that I have the "privilege" of purchasing a firearm at all. God forbid I should even try and purchase one of those evil black rifles. :D

- Abe

[jsalcedo]

Yep I've been through it.

Folr height and weight they got me for abbreviating 6ft 4in.

I asked the guy if he had a friggin microscope so I could write
six feet four inches on the sliver of yellow on the form.

I put U.S. Nope not good enough.

I guess there could indeed be another
state called Texas in some 1 square mile island country called U.S.

[cordex]

Changed the forms not too long ago. Started cracking down on abbreviations.

Still ... last gun I bought, I think I abbreviated several words. Dealer didn't mention it, though.

[braindead0]

Hmm, wouldn't it be nice to print up the forms with your information already filled out..and make them fill in their information?

[Zundfolge]

Would it be possible for me to get a PDF of the 4437, then edit it on my computer so I can type all the info in, then take that to the gun shop?


Last time I had a transfer done, the guy I usualy went to said that the local BATF office got a new guy who was a stickler for no abbreviations. Of course he told me this BEFORE he handed the form and a pen to me. It may be an office by office thing.

[braindead0]

My last one at Gander Mountain (month ago or so), he said to not abbreviate anything...so I wrote so small it probably couldn't be read by a magnifying class....that was fine.

[jsalcedo]

All the 4473's I've seen had the the FFL information on it
as well as some codes. Not sure if the shop has a stamp or what.

I doubt they would go for it although I was buying so many guns
at I could have used a pre printed one myself.

I can fill out a 4473 in less than 20 seconds. I usually get a funny look when I hand it back to them because they thought they could get a coffee and take a couple of calls while I was deciding where I was born and what race I am.


BTW I really don't know what race to put down.... can I check more than one box for my mongrel ancestry?

[Abe]

Ya know...I just realized that I abbreviated "JBT" and "BATF" in my original post. Does this mean I have to correct this and re-post? :D

- A

[Justin]

BTW I really don't know what race to put down.... can I check more than one box for my mongrel ancestry?

I've always wondered what would happen if I put down 'human' for race in that spot. After all, there really is no such thing as race. What they should be asking for is ethnicity. But I seriously doubt that your average BATFE employee would be able to engage in a discussion of the semantics of the Form 4473.

[erikm]

I've always wondered what would happen if I put down 'human' for race in that spot. After all, there really is no such thing as race. What they should be asking for is ethnicity. But I seriously doubt that your average BATFE employee would be able to engage in a discussion of the semantics of the Form 4473.
In my opinion it seems to be a correct answer. An even more interesting situation would be one where a prospective customer couldn't write 'human' there. At least not without lieing. :D
In some ways I'm kind of thankful we haven't quite advanced to that point yet.

Cheers,
ErikM :evil:

[Carlos Cabeza]

I have been getting good at filling those out, but lately I have refused putting my S.S. # on the form. I was told that it takes longer to get approval without it. :what: I told the guy " I don't care, I can wait a few days" :D
I suppose he thought I needed it IMMEDIATELY ! Then he asked if I wanted some ammunition for that gun. I said ??????????? what for. I'll get some when I pick up the gun.....................:rolleyes:

[WilderBill]

Seems like you should be able to use such common abbreviations as USA.
There is a reason I only buy used from individuals. It comes under the heading on "nunya".

By the way, was that salesman named Richard Cranium?

[DF357]

in the past month. Abbreviated them all. Didn't use my SS#. Approval came over the phone as quickly as the dealer could write it down. ????!!!!!!?????

[Standing Wolf]

Our public servants think they're our masters. They're rock-solid wrong.

[P95Carry]

Maybe this abbreviation deal ain't reached my backwoods gun shop! Last time (not that long ago at all) .... piled in the usual set of abreviations ... no probs. But then the team at this shop are good and i consider friends .. put a lot of business their way and it pays off.

Even got copies from them of their FFL .. in case when at Dallas gun show I want to buy anything (in case ................. hahaha .... WHEN - I buy something!).

[redneck2]

I help out at a gun shop some times

We are VERY clear up front that nothing can be abbreviated

Mebbe it'd just be easier to follow directions

;)

[TallPine]

I have NEVER provided a SSN and NEVER had a delay.

(well, except when the damn NICS system was down for 24 hours right before Xmas a few years ago :fire: )

[Abe]

The minor point was that in the instance that I outlined there were no specific instructions and my past experience (as well as those of others in this thread) is that abbreviations were\are fine. YMMV.

The larger point (and in the scheme of things not all that large, that's why it's called a rant) is that of abbreviations in general and "United States of America" in particular. If this is just store policy that's one thing. If it's some petty bureaucrat telling a private business and in turn they being required to instruct a customer that any abbreviations are going to delay\prevent the purchase of a firearm, something's wrong.

As I said, minor in the scheme of things but a wee bit irritating nonetheless.

- Abe

[spacemanspiff]

i always use abbreviations, noones said thats a no-no yet.

[Destructo6]

No abbreviations on the 4473 has been my experience here in CA, regardless of store.

Not abbreviating county, I can understand. For instance, Santa Barbara and San Bernardino would both be "SB". However, state abbreviations should be acceptable, since they're federally standardized.

[Gordon Fink]

It’s not the gun store’s fault. The BATFE no-abbreviations rule is all about generating paperwork “violations.” Something to harass the FFL holder with when convenient …

~G. Fink

[owen]

The 4473 must be filled out in front of the clerk. I use to tell the customers in the store I worked in all about abbreviations before they filled the form out, and reminded them when they got to the plac es where they would use them.

[redneck2]

you stand there and tell the guy (or gal, except gals listen)

NO ABBREVIATIONS...then give examples...

"street can't be St., it has to be spelled out S-T-R-E-E-T...Indiana, not IN...etc., etc.,....."

then the guy gives it back to you and there's a bunch of mistakes, but he's cranked because he's gotta change 'em (it's a violation if I change his info)

our store had a policy of an "in-house" $1 fine if a 4473 was wrong. Money went for the Christmas party. We always had a good fund built up.

It's amazing how many dealers don't know some of the laws.

[KC]

"BTW I really don't know what race to put down.... can I check more than one box for my mongrel ancestry?"

Note that the box says to check at least ONE of the following. You cant leave it blank, that would be illegal, immoral and wrong.

But there's nothing that says you cant check ALL of the boxes, or be wildly inconsistant between forms. Remember, you are what race you say you are (except American Indian--that's legally protected), and you can change your mind at whim.

KC

[HankB]

Remember, you are what race you say you are (except American Indian--that's legally protected), That's why, back in college, I always used the term "Native American" when applying for financial aid. I mean, I WAS born here, right?

As far as paperwork is concerned . . . hmmm . . . has anyone ever considered filling out their 4473 forms in disappearing ink? :evil:

[JW2]

The last gun I bought (at an actual gun store) I was told I didn't have to abbreviate (so I didn't) but the time before last I bought a shotgun at Dicks Sporting Goods and they made sure to tell me to spell out every word before I started filling it out.

[Guyon]

First one I ever filled out, the clerk explained, "no abbreviations." Silly rule, but so are most rules in a bureaucracy.

I just don't abbreviate on them. No probs.

[Wildalaska]

I think you guys are getting worked up over nothing, abbreviations such as US, state codes, st., ln, ave are just fine under the law.

If the shop wants more why hassle, they are only covering their butts, its just a piece of paper.


WildsowhatAlaska

[larry_minn]

It may be a piece of paper but it can cause the FFL loads of bother/cost if it is not exactyly the way the BATFE folks want it. ANY mistake and it can cost $$$ Do you really think the raiseing of FFL fees alone caused so many to quit?
How many of you know a small dealer who was given a choice. Either do not renew your FFL when it expires or pay $$$ for BS violations. How would you like to pay a few grand becasuse a 75yr old customer wrote in TODAYS date for DOB? Simple mistake that can be fixed right? They had his DL and SS# plus address/etc. How about if the explanation form not attached? I used to ask for the back sheet. Seems one store got into trouble because it was not attached to my 4473. I would have been happy to init the main page (where all writing was) that I actually GOT the back page but that was not good enough. $$$
Get a FFL to tell you or better yet a FORMER FFL who ment to keep dealing but found it too expensive/bothersom to do so.
IMO they redid the form but didn't make it any better. PLUS not getting new forms out in time.