[Smiley]

Are lead bullets like these suppossed to be responsible/blamed for the Glock Kabooms?

10mm FEDERAL 180 GRAIN
HIGH ANTIMONY LEAD BULLET
being sold at ammoman.com

[Handy]

No.

Lead bullets cause barrel failures if the barrel leads up and the bullet wedges in the bore. Related to the odd Glock barreling profile.

Kabooms are case head failures where chamber gases are suddenly released from the ruptured case into the action. Caused by the interaction of a number of factors, all of which are hotly debated.

There's one of those debates going on right now in Autopistols.

[stans]

I will argue that anytime, for any reason, the case head ruptures, it should be considered a "kaboom". The end result is the same whether it is from a lead build up in the barrel or a double charged case.

[Handy]

Stan,

Leaded barrels don't cause case head ruptures, or at least not by themselves. The barrel bulges or splits and the case may go with it.

That's kind of like calling either case a "jam". Well, sure it's jammed, but that isn't the problem or have anything to do with the cause.

[jc2]

Smiley -

Unless they changed it, the Glock Users Guide (the manual that came with your pistol) does not say anything (pro or con--certainly no cautions or warnings) about the use of lead bullets. If you use lead bullets, cleaning can really be a tough chore (and imprortant). The high antimony means they are a very hard bullet which should reduce leading (and ease cleaning).

Federal (factory JHPs) do seem to figure heavily in Glock .40 S&W kabooms, however so there might be a question about case strength.

[JohnKSa]

I sent Federal an email asking why their only practice round for the 10mm used an HAL bullet when the majority of 10mm pistols in the U.S. are made and sold by Glock who recommends against the use of lead bullets in their firearms.

They answered promptly that they have discontinued the HAL bullets in 10mm loadings and replaced the HAL bullets with jacketed projectiles...


Subj: RE: Ammo Inquiry from Federal Web Site
Date: 4/24/03 8:55:42 AM Central Daylight Time
From: Ron.Ives@ATK.com (Ives, Ron)
To: JohnKSa

Greetings

We have not offered the lead bullet for several years.

It now utilizes a 180 grain FMJ.

-----Original Message-----
From: JohnKSa
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 11:23 PM
To: prodserv@federalcartridge.com
Subject: Ammo Inquiry from Federal Web Site


Glock likely sells more10mm pistols in the US market than any other gun maker.

Yet the only 10mm practice ammunition you sell is also virtually the only (if not the only) autopistol ammo you manufacture that does not use a jacketed bullet.

Surely Federal is aware that Glock recommends against the use of unjacketed ammunition in their pistols?

...

Thank you for your time.

JohnKSa


Glock's technical staff has been repeatedly quoted in various publications saying that unjacketed bullets are not recommended in Glock firearms. If that is insufficiently credible for some, anyone who wants the final word on the matter, can call Glock USA directly and get it straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

There's no need to quibble about the manual's semantics when anyone who wants can have the final word for the cost of a phone call.

[jc2]

Federal still lists the 180-grain 10mm high antimony lead on both their website and in the current catalog (under the American Eagle brand).

It looks like you may have received bad information.

You have to be really careful what some customer service rep tells you over the phone (and as you have currently very well-illustrated, even e-mail). I have received bad/conflicting information on more than one occassion with phone calls to customer representatives!

If the use of lead bullets is truly a dangerous practice, I am convinced any responsible manufacturer would have included and warnings and/or cautions to that effect in the published operating manuals included with the handgun. To suggest, a manufacturer relies solely on the customer calling to provide important information concerning a potentially hazardous (and not necessarily uncommon) practice suggests a tremendous degree of irresponsibility on the manufacturer's part.

[Handy]

JC2,

We could fill a 5 page thread with everything that's wrong with manuals and manufacturers ability to "get the word out" (can you say "frame rails"). But that hardly makes the case for a practice being a good one if it's not in the manual.

General rule: don't shoot lead in Glocks.

Like many rules, this can be broken in certain situations, but the General rule exists for a reason, and must be the starting point for any discussion.

[jc2]

I would draw a large distinction (without excusing Glock's miserable failure in the getting word out about the frame rails) between a manufacturing/design effect that was (hopefully) corrected and the alleged problem with lead bullets. Glock was terribly irresponsible and negligent in failing the notify users (partiuclarly law enforcement agencies) of the problem with the guide rails. If lead is as big of problem as has been alleged then Glock is truly negligent for failing to take proper steps (including the most basic, common sense precaution of printing cautions/warninging in its manual) to notify its customers.

Let's, just for kicks, set-up scenario: You're at the range shooting lead bullets in your Glock. It suffers an explosive self-disassembly injuring or killing the shooter in the next lane whose surviving family members decide to sue the pants off Glock (because they have a lot more money than you). Can you imagine Glock going into a courtroom and saying, "It's not our fault, he [the shooter] should have just known not to use lead bullets in our products." (by osmosis??)

[Andrew Wyatt]

THe cause of glocks Kabooming isn't so much that the bullet sticks in the bore as much as the lead builds up in front of the case mouth enough that the gun fires out of battery.

[jc2]

So, dirty chambers (and possibly weak/too light recoil springs) are more to blame for Glock kabooms than the use of lead of bullets?

[Andrew Wyatt]

That's a distinct possibility.


IMHO, the glock disconnecter needs to be redesigned to not allow out of battery firing.

[JohnKSa]

jc2,

I noted the same thing and sent a second email.

Besides, I purposely included the email of the Federal tech rep in the post on purpose so anyone who wanted could verify the information for themselves.

Subj: RE: Ammo Inquiry from Federal Web Site
Date: 4/28/03 9:21:51 AM Central Daylight Time
From: Tracy.Vekved@ATK.com (Vekved, Tracy)
To: JohnKSa

Thank you for choosing Federal Premium Ammuntion. We understand you are trying to locate ammunition. However, Federal Cartridge does not sell direct. Please visit our dealer locator http://www.vicinity.com/federalcartridge/startprx.hm in order to locate dealer's near you whom carry our products. We recommend calling ahead, to the dealer of your choice, for product availability. Outfitter dealers will special order product in for you, if it is an item not currently stocked.

Sincerely,

Tracy

PS: We are selling the FMJ Loads.
-----Original Message-----
From: JohnKSa
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 5:53 PM
To: Ron.Ives@ATK.com
Subject: Re: Ammo Inquiry from Federal Web Site

Ron,

The website still shows the HAL bullet.

I have not been able to locate any of the jacketed ammo--Any hints on where I might start looking?

Thank you for your prompt reply,

JohnKSa

For the record, none of my 4 Glock pistols will fire with the barrel unlocked from the slide. I assume that's what's meant by out of battery since as long as the barrel and slide are locked, it is safe to fire the pistol.

Also, I've just got to know... jc2, why did you purchase a Glock when you seem--shall we say--"less than enamored" with the design and customer service?

[jc2]

Also, I've just got to know... jc2, why did you purchase a Glock when you seem--shall we say--"less than enamored" with the design and customer service?
Well, John, seems like we have to go over and over this.

First, John, there's not a manufacturer out there that I would consider myself "enamored with." It's just that certain elements tend to feel personally offended (just about like talking religion and politics) unless you fully endorse their view of Glocks with the same religious fervour they do.

Secondly, John, I have said all long Glocks have their strongpoints and weaknesses--just like any other handgun. Again, the problem appears that certain elements cannot admit the object of their worship might have any weaknesses.

So, yes, John, it is possible to see (and use) a Glock "warts and all." There is a middle ground where you neither have to love nor hate Glocks. It just that there appears an element out there that thinks if you are less than complimentrary of their "baby," (or maybe just not "enamored" enough) you are "bashing" it.

BTW, John, as Tamara has pointed out to you before, your remark/question would have been more appropriate for a PM.

[Sarge]

"Are lead bullets like these suppossed to be responsible/blamed for the Glock Kabooms?"

Not necessarily; the widespread use of lead bullets in law enforcement training has been out of vouge for about a decade now; and yet the phenomenon continues. There are those who continue to blame the ammo, but the Beretta 96 and the S&W Sigma .40 have also been around nearly as long as the Glock, and have been exposed to the same spectrum of ammuntion. To my knowledge, KaBooms with the Beretta or Sigma are practically unheard of.

I think the Glock 9mm is a fine pistol, if you are amenable to it's Luger-esqe grip angle and the other features (trigger action, lack of a manual safety) that make the Glock unique. Their 9 has suffered none of the problems seem to have afflicted its larger brethren. There are other pistols in any caliber that suit me better, so personally I avoid the Glock altogether.

[litework]

I bought a box of American Eagle 180-grain 10mm high antimony lead and shot them through my (yikes) Glock 20. Lead bullets don't concern me. I clean my guns after I fire them. If Glock really doesn't want the community to shoot lead bullets through their guns, they should state it in the owner's manual. These bullets are not "inexpertly filled ammunition." They must be okay, right?

[BigG]

I have a Glock manual here, date March 1988, Form US004-03/88 for the Model 17, 17L, and 19 pistoles. The manual cautions against using anything other than factory ammunition in excellent condition for the caliber specified: 9X19mm Parabellum. The next paragraph says reloaded ammunition voids warranty. All this is in RED writing. I apologize that I mentioned in other threads that I thought that it specifically mentioned lead. :o On the other hand, I've never seen factory loaded 9X19mm Parabellum in anything other than jacketed bullets. Seems like you could put two and two together and realize lead is verboten. :uhoh:

[bad_dad_brad]

I could not find anything in the Glock manual about lead bullets as well. You will void your warranty if you do not use ammo manufatured other than SAAMI or NATO specs, so to me, that rules out handloading. The warranty is only one year anyway.

From Topglocks FAQ:

Can I shoot lead bullets in my Glock?

"Glock barrels use special polygonal rifling not found in most handguns. This rifling is one of the main reasons Glocks are extremely accurate guns. However, the same rifling can cause a high degree of leading when not using jacketed bullets. In other words some lead from the bullet sticks to the inside of the barrel when it is fired. Too much leading can quickly lead to high pressures which can cause the barrel and/or gun to break or even explode. If you choose to shoot lead in your Glock please get an after market barrel."

Opinions vary but it is not just Glocks it is about polygonal barrels. It is also widely recomended not to shoot non-jacketed lead bullets through H&Ks USP pistols which also feature the same kind of rifling. Why take the chance when good FMJs, especially in 9mm are reasonably priced.

[Handy]

Kabooms and leaded barrels are seperate problems. While lead could certainly contribute to kbs, the typical leaded barrel failure is a bulged barrel, not a detonation into the frame.

Confusing these two, seperate problems is likely the source of the confusion. For instance, kBs are almost never said to be a 9mm problem. But leaded barrels quite definitely are.

Seperate problems with seperate causes and seperate effects.

[JohnKSa]

Opinions vary but it is not just Glocks it ... is also widely recomended not to shoot non-jacketed lead bullets through H&Ks USP pistols which also feature the same kind of rifling.
It's not just polygonal rifling either...

The Beretta owner's manual includes a recommendation not to shoot lead in their 92/96 series pistols, stating that it may "dramatically increase the discharge pressure". They make a special point to say that shooting jacketed ammo through a barrel that has just had lead bullets fired through it is an even more dangerous activity.

Beretta 9X series pistols employ standard land/groove rifling.

jc2,

It was a fair, and on topic question, and not at all personal, as far as I can see. I made no statements about you other than the one you clearly agree with "not enamored with...Glock". That's hardly personal, or an attack. The rest was just a question.

I got the impression from your posts that you feel Glock's design is dangerous, Glock's documentation is irresponsibly imcomplete and Glock's customer service is self-serving, negligent and severely lacking.

I just wondered what 'strongpoints' of the Glock pistol enable you to overlook your obvious general distaste for the company and its products. You didn't list any of the 'strongpoints' in your reply...leaving me curious still. :confused:

Good shooting,

John