[Lovesbeer99]

I've been working the Bill Drill and have been getting better. The other day I saw a reference to some drill that started with an "M". I believe the goal was to shoot 2 rapid to the body, followed by 1 to the head. Can someone help me understand this a little better? Are there any other fun drills to run?

Shoot safe, I do.

Lovesbeer99

[Prince Yamato]

Mozambique Drill. Two shots to the chest and one to the head. Used during the Roedesian War. Fun to practice, stupid to do as a civilian. Shoot for center of mass (chest). The head is very easy to miss. If you miss in real life, in a public area, you could hit a civilian and be charged with murder.

[pwrtool45]

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204400

[ZeSpectre]

pwrtool45, good link, thanks!

[CWL]

Fun to practice, stupid to do as a civilian.

I disagree. In a SD situation, the BG may be wearing body-armor or may be whacked out on chemicals. The shot to the head shuts-down BG's CNS and and doesn't depend on pain or blood-loss to end the confrontation.

Example: Tyler Texas Courthouse shooting. Mark Wilson, a CCW holder and competition shooter, engaged BG who had AK-style weapon. Mark drew his pistol and fired two rounds into COM of BG (who stumbled after being hit), but because BG was wearing body-armor he returned fire on Mark Wilson and killed him. Mark stuck too close to training, fired 2 rounds then stopped to check target-this gave BG time to return fire. He didn't train to keep shooting until threat is gone and it unfortunately cost him his life.

[Prince Yamato]

Example: Tyler Texas Courthouse shooting. Mark Wilson, a CCW holder and competition shooter, engaged BG who had AK-style weapon. Mark drew his pistol and fired two rounds into COM of BG (who stumbled after being hit), but because BG was wearing body-armor he returned fire on Mark Wilson and killed him. Mark stuck too close to training, fired 2 rounds then stopped to check target-this gave BG time to return fire. He didn't train to keep shooting until threat is gone and it unfortunately cost him his life.

In that case, you aim for the head, but 99.99% of the time, you'd better aim for the body. Most people aren't wearing armor. You also have to keep a possible trial in mind. CCW classes don't teach the mozambique drill, a court will look into that, ask quesitons, etc. Look, I have no problem with the drill in theory, but in pure legal terms, it's not a smart thing to anticipate doing. Besides, if you hit someone in the heart, whether on drugs or not, they're going down.

[Skpotamus]

At typical SD shooting ranges (under 10 feet), head shots are a lot easier than you think. IF you do some FoF drills, you'd be surprised how often head shots happen.

Handguns are not magical, they incapacitate due to a combination of psychological effect and blood loss. The only sure way to put someone down immediately is to destroy their central nervous system. This is best accomplished by a hit to the brain stem.

There have been a LOT of instances where people were hit and did not go down. Some peopel have soaked up tremendous amounts of damage to their bodies, to be taken down with head shots. Look at the Miami Dade Shootout. One suspect was hit in the head, and was out of the fight. The other took shots to the body that were lethal, but kept on fighting. It was the eventual headshots that put him down.

[CWL]

if you hit someone in the heart, whether on drugs or not, they're going down.

Tell that to Richmond Calif., SWAT. BG Killed his wife, then engaged SWAT in gunfire.
-BG walked down stairway towards first entry teammember who put 5 rounds of .45ACP into COM, puncturing heart several times, BG continued down stairway and outside where shotgun ended confrontation. (SWAT officer later testified that he was too "freaked-out" after seeing him keep coming after heartshots that he didn't think to shoot for head)

What I'm trying to say is to train to stop the fight, this means shoot until the threat is gone. Training is great -I swear by it, but you have to understand that the real world isn't going to work the same as at the range or shoot-house. If all, you do is shoot 2-COM and then stop to check-out your score, this what you'll do in a real life-or-death situation. This may mean you will die. Training (thankfully) takes over in a SD situation (I know), but don't completely disengage your mind from the reality of what's going on.

In my original post, if you don't train for headshots, you won't do them if the moment arises. As we all know that headshots are dang hard to make, best to incorporate them into serious training regimen.

[Skpotamus]

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

Miami Dade Shootout. Both suspects shot multiple times, even head and chest shots that while eventually fatal, did not stop the fight. Platt, the one with the mini 14 that carried the fight to the FBI agents was hit while exiting his vehicle with a round that severed arteries, went thru his lung, and stopped just shy of his heart. The wound was fatal, and he bled out, but not until after firing a LOT of rounds with his mini 14, killing two FBI agents and injuring 5 others.

In total, one of the bad guys was shot 6 times and was still functional, the other was shot a total of 12 times before he finally died.

http://www.thegunzone.com/11april86.html has another description of the fight.

Bottom line, Don't expect that a chest shot will stop a person. Kill them yes, stop them right away... no.

[Robo_Railer]

I've seen video of the Tyler incident on various CourtTV programs, but I don't think I ever heard of Mark Wilson before this. He probably saved David Arroyo Jr.'s life, but lost his own.
Mark stuck too close to training, fired 2 rounds then stopped to check target-this gave BG time to return fire. He didn't train to keep shooting until threat is gone and it unfortunately cost him his life.And why the heck would LE training still include the "fire two and reassess" routine? I haven't fired a qualification course in this state yet, but heard the "reassess" concept mentioned during a class. :confused:

A discussion about the SLC mall shooting on an LE forum I read had this comment from one member: "This is why you carry off duty, that 1-in-a-million crap fest that most likely won't happen. Better to have it and not need it I say." Yep, and it would be why someone should practice for circumstances like a BG with body armor, too. An armored BG may seem to be be odds of one-in-two-million or more, but San Diego PD probably never thought they'd have to deal with a rampaging guy in an M60 tank, either.

Something I found today on the "Week In Review" page from Musician's Friend (during this week in 1999): "'number one with a bullet' must have taken on new meaning for Ol’ Dirty Bastard, who, in an apparent attempt to prevent his initials changing from ODB to DOA, is arrested for wearing body armor … a forbidden garment thanks to his previous arrest record … fortunately for the hip-hop community, monitors with Kevlar speaker cones are not on ODB’s forbidden list … though they are difficult to hide behind …"
Names like Emil Matasareanu and Larry Phillips come to mind, too.

[possum]

Fun to practice, stupid to do as a civilian.
i am not a civilian but i will also disagree. there is nothing stupid about it, and could very well be the technique that allows you to walk away from a gun fight, and leave your attacker's centeral nervous system shut down, and stoping the fight rather quickly. sounds good to me. now is it the guaranteed killer, that works in every situation, no but that is true for any technique. there are several great drills out there and this is just one that should be in everyone's bag of tricks.

[CWL]

Robo Railer,
I'm assuming you are LEO, unfortunately, modern LEO training defers more towards the civil suits afterwards than survival of the actual encounter.

The USA has too many fallen LEOs who have lost their lives due to politically correct training rather than proper survival tactics. Modern police are trained to be so careful of the inquest and lawsuit afterwards that they are effectively hamstrung to respond effectively to a dangerous encounter.
Stay safe.

[vanilla_gorilla]

Fun to practice, stupid to do as a civilian. Shoot for center of mass (chest). The head is very easy to miss. If you miss in real life, in a public area, you could hit a civilian and be charged with murder.

What exactly do you do when you've centerpiunched a guy with a gun and he doesn't know that he's supposed to fall down?




Story time:
A guy and his lady friend are walking down a street after eating a nice steak dinner on Friday night. The area is busy and the only parking available was a nice walk away, not a problem on a beautiful October night.

So the guy, who has had a lot of firearms courses notices a van slowly driving the other direction on the street. The guy notices the deep gurgling sound of the exhaust, but really doesn't think much of it. Then he notices a couple of thugs crossing the street; said GTer is uncomfortable because he and his lady friend seemed to get too much attention from the guys crossing the street. One of those "it just doesn't feel right" type of things.

So the couple continue walking toward the parking garage, when the GTer notices the gurgling sound of that van slowly passing by them. Then the GTer, who regularly uses windows to watch his 6, notices the two thugs that crossed the street coming up behind them. One of the thugs is clearly holding his right hand suspiciously around his belt buckle area. Then said GTer notices the van stopped on the side of the street just ahead and the 2 thugs behind them are getting closer.

GTer tells his lady friend that they are going to duck into any open business they see, but there were not any available. Just as they were coming up on the van, 2 ****-eaters jump out of the van and block the sidewalk. Gter draws his Kimber .45, and moves to engage the thugs 5 feet behind them; the intention was to go to low ready and size up the situation. The two from the van did not appear to be armed and one behind them was already spotted as armed.

So GTer turns and starts to shout at the two thugs on foot when the armed one begins to pull a revolver (SW .38 special). GTer, had the jump because the thugs in the rear did not see him remove his pistol from his daytimer style carry (they had been where alcohol was sold, but he did not drink).

The GTer always, always, always shoots failure drill at the range and trains at least twice a month.

As the BG #1 pulls the pistol, the GTer puts two rounds COM and moves up and puts one in the eye area. There was absolutely no reaction to the chest shots in the BG. The second thug turns to his falling comrade and tries to get his pistol, as GTer puts 2 slugs in his COM and one in the side of the head, GTer didn't know he hit BG #2 with the first 2 rounds. The second thug didn't have time to get turned around to face GTer, and didn't go down from the two to the chest, so said GTer puts one is the side of his head. Both third shots, at 5 feet, were very messy. Luckily for GTer, the second thug did get his hands on the pistol (a fact that would greatly help him in the future). So after the two in the rear were neutralized, GTer turned to check on the two from the van who had started moving his way. When GTer turned to engage them, gun at low ready, they turned and ran to the van got in and the van sped off.

The thugs were linked to other rapes and 2 abductions of similar method, and had sheets as long as your arm. (funny how that wasn't admissable in court) The thugs from the van looked more pissed than scared, and GTer would encounter them later in life. Turns out they were members of the Gangsta Disciples. The Gangsta's don't take lightly to seeing their bro.s being shot down in the street.

The aftermath: Said GTer was charged with manslaughter (the jury was given other options too) and was found not guilty by a jury of his peers. Deliberations took less than 3 hours. Some of the city council PERSONS believed that failure drill represented too much force and GTer should have not made the last shot on the guys. Of course, if he had not made the third shots in the failure drill, the thugs would be alive today. So city council PERSON, pressures the DA and viola, the decision is made to charge him.

There you go, the good and bad of the Mo drill.

[Robo_Railer]

The USA has too many fallen LEOs who have lost their lives due to politically correct training rather than proper survival tactics. Modern police are trained to be so careful of the inquest and lawsuit afterwards that they are effectively hamstrung to respond effectively to a dangerous encounter.Unfortunately true.

So city council PERSON, pressures the DA and viola, the decision is made to charge him.Maybe city council PERSON should butt out and expend her energy in finding out who put the stop payment on her reality check. Oops, looks like I made a very un-PC assumption about PERSON's gender, eh? :rolleyes:
Now why would that make me think of "Di-Fi" when she was mayor of SF, and screwed up the Nightstalker investigation by running her mouth about things that shouldn't have been public knowledge?
More proof that we don't tell political jokes in this country, we elect them.
It's after 0200 here, I guess I should get some sleep before I get any crankier. ;)