[Patrick Henry]

I'm very interested to get some reaction from the statements made on this website: http://www.brassfetcher.com/.357%20Magnum.html It claims that a .357 is no better than a 9mm Luger.

I think a more pertinent comparison is with .38 special. It's the same bullet. Faster yes, but is it really more effective?

Is the .357's reputation as "king of the street" fact or fiction?

[Zundfolge]

thats not quite what it said, it said:

A scaled-up version of the .38 Special, the .357 Magnum revolver offers ballistic performance on par with a 9mm submachinegun or other long-barrel 9x19mm firearm.

So thats a little more powerful than a 9x19 handgun (and probably an accurate assessment, although admittedly poorly worded).

[bakert]

At one time the .357 had the best one shot stopping record of any rd. period, but it can be a bear especially in some of the lighter short barreled guns. Blast and muzzle flash is intimidating to some people. Some of the newer hotter 9MM rds are pretty darn good too. Having said that I carry a .45 auto most ofthe time.:)

[Bob79]

.357 Mag is a great handgun round. In ways it is close to the 9mm, virtually the same exact size in diameter, and can be the same power.

An average 9mm+P is about 1200 FPS, in 124 grain variety. A 125 grain .357 Mag round that travels 1200 FPS is considered by almost everyone to be on the mild side, approaching moderate power. You can easily push a 125 grain Mag round to say 1400 FPS, and with JHP ammo, these speeds insure great penetration, with good expansion of the bullet.

9mm+P 124 grain @ 1200FPS=397 ft lbs

.357 Mag 125 grain @ 1400FPS=544 ft lbs

Plus with .357 mag you can go from 110 grain ammo, all the way up to 200 grain. With 9mm you pretty much looking at 115 grain to 147 grain, and usually the heavier 147 grain 9mm ammo doesn't perform as well as the 124 grain stuff.

9mm is not by any means a "bad" round to shoot, but the .357 Mag is superior.

[3 gun]

Stop wasting your time on that site. He can't even close his own conclusion.."In all, the .357 provides the same performance as the 9x19mm, but penetrates significantly deeper."

Deeper penetration makes for better performance in most loads, not the same.

The 357mag is a more powerful round in just about all loads.

[innerpiece]

apples and oranges imo....

barrel length, distance, load, target density.. nearly everything comes into play to make each situation different in the effectiveness of a given shot..

snubbie .357 vrs Glock19.... etc, etc..

I carry 9mm's.. I trust them to do the trick, and know they will..
I also know a .357 will do it aswell. but the weapon platform is not to my prefrence..

ip.

[grimjaw]

Stop wasting your time on that site.

Well, since you're not posting any results of your own, what else would you suggest from current work? He even takes requests.

Just can't please some people.

jm

[Jeff]

There are individuals who have been led to believe the 9mm is equivalent to the .357 in performance, just like there are individuals who have been led to believe the .223 (5.56mm) is equivalent to the .308 (7.62x51mm) in performance.

It's nonsense.

[rnovi]

Errr, I've loaded a 125 gr. JHP .357 Mag up to 1700 fps. Yeah, it's a serious barnstormer of a round and a delightful range-stopper. And I'm not certain I'd really want to use it for a defense load - although it would be effective.

In any case, a 9mm is a fine round but it isn't a .357 magnum properly loaded.

[Monkeybear]

A 9mm is .355 diameter. A .357 is .357 diameter.

With the right loads and a long enough barrel you can approach the same velocity of a .357 magnum round. A 124gr .355 going 1200fps and a 124gn .357 going 1200fps of similar design with both likely have the same terminal ballistics.

Basically the bullets are almost the same diameter so if you can get the 9mm to go fast enough you can match a .357 of similar design. The trick is to get it going as fast as a .357. Its impossible to do in a handgun.

[Nematocyst]

I loved my 9. Fine, fine pistol. Dead on accurate. Comfortable.

But it wouldn't bring down a deer as easy as that .357 in a pinch,
which is one reason I'm selling it.

(The other reason is that I've finally admitted I'm a wheel gun guy.
I just prefer wheel guns over semi-autos. No apologies. Just reality.)

And there's just something sexy about that SW 686+ in .357.

Bigga bada boom.

[berettashotgun]

Ok, 25 years old 357 ballistic performance is now compared against recent 9mm ballistic performance. Hmmmm...... A 357 (yea- right) SIG round is a little closer to the "real" 357, but it ain't quite the same.
9x19 is a excellent pistol round , for those on a budget:neener: , wife carries a 17rd mag full of them on duty- everyday. I really enjoy the accuracy I can obtain from a revolver in the moderate 357mag loadings, but a 9x19 will NEVER be a comparative equal to a 357 magnum.
Max out a 357sig load as a baseline for the 357 mag and the 9x19 isn't even close.
Everyone wants numbers, but 124/5gr bullets at +P+ loadings are going considerbly faster from the 357 mag, followed by the sig, and then the 9x19.:banghead:

[Nightcrawler]

It's not that the .357 isn't powerful. It does, however, tend to be over-rated somewhat.

You of course have your 125 grain loads at about 1,400 to 1,450 FPS. This can be duplicated by .357 Sig.

Your 158 grain .357 loads tend to be rather watered down. 1,150 to 1,250 feet per second, usually. It's rare to find a 158 grain factory load with 1,300+ FPS velocity from a standard (4" or so) barrel. Note that one Cor-Bon .40S&W load launches a 150 grain bullet at 1,200 feet per second. The .357 will, of course, have better sectional density, but the .40 will make a bigger hole.

The 180 grainers are even MORE watered down, sometimes, despite being marketed for "hunting". 180 grains at 1,100 feet per second from a 6+" barrel just isn't terribly impressive, in my opinion.

There are several reasons for this, I think. First and foremost, most shooters are happy with 125 grain loads for self defense, so development of other loads has...well, not quite fallen by the wayside, but it hasn't gotten the research effort that other cartridges have.

Secondly, improvements in JHP bullet design yield excellent expansion from lower velocities, so the ammo is downloaded for less recoil. (Sometimes. Personally I can't understand a 158 grain soft point chugging along at 1,200 feet per second, but that load is available.)

Now, there are companies out there, like Buffalo Bore and Double Tap, that are loading .357 Magnum to its potential. In most factory loadings, though, I daresay it doesn't have much advantage over .40S&W or .45ACP +P, if any. If you disagree, tell me why. But looking at the raw ballistic numbers (bullet weight, muzzle velocity, kinetic energy), the .357 Magnum as most commonly loaded doesn't stand out especially well from the autochucker cartridges.

[Brasso]

I agree completely. None of the big 3 offer a .357mag load that even aproaches full power. At best I'd call them light medium loads. I still carry one though because I prefer wheelies and I like the extra sd of the 158gr load.

Even the 180gr castcore round from Federal that's supposed to be for hunting is wimpy. 1050fps? Come on! I can easily load that same round to 1300 and still be under max pressure.

[wcwhitey]

What everyone is concentrating on is the ballistic scale in which to two rounds meet. It is obvious that at the approx same bullet weight and diameter 124/125 grain and 1200 fps they would be and are very close. The difference that I see is that that is the upper end of performance for the 9mm and the lower end for the .357. When we compare newer factory loadings in the .357 they have been powered down to the point that they are just Magnum in name. If we compare some of the loadings from Corbon or Buffalo bore you will see loadings that are more on the line of what was intended for the .357. These loads will leave the 9mm in the dust. I don't know if it fear of liability by the ammo manufacturers or that some of the guns that it shoots are well past the 50 year mark but the .357 has been powered down for some time now. I may be slightly off on my numbers but I believe the original .357 loading was a 158 grain bullet at 1600 fps. No 9mm Parabellum will ever approach that.

[Bob79]

Nightcrawler-the original message/question in post #1 was comparing 9mm and .357 mag, NOT .357 SIG.

As stated in post #4, average loadings for 9mm vs .357 in similar bullet weights shows the .357 to be superior in terms of energy. This increased velocity also translates to better penetration, and bullet expansion.

And when the rounds are loaded up to "thier potential", then .357 mag is the without a doubt, the obvious winner.;)

[ZeSpectre]

Maybe we should send some 9mm and some .357 Magnum (say the nice hot 110gr "treasury loads") over to Don (old_painless@theboxotruth.com) at "the box o' truth" (http://www.theboxotruth.com/index.htm)and let him settle this <grin>.

[Lone_Gunman]

The problem with the 357 is that many factory loads are only in the 1250-1300 fps range out of a 4 inch barrel. I recently chrono'd Remington Golden Sabers, and they were only around 1200 fps. Thats pretty sorry performance for a 357.

When you take the watered-down 357's and combine that with a short barrelled revolver, you lose additional velocity, and end up with a cartridge/gun combo that may even be less than a 9mm.


Using Winchester Ranger-T 9mm 124g +P+ ammo, I get between 1250-1300 fps out of a Glock 34. Thats pretty awesome performance, IMO, especially when you consider 17 rounds in the magazine. You can get better performance with a 357, but you have to pick the right loads and use the right barrel lengths.

[Eagle103]

I've also found the factory .357 loads to be awful slow. It's sad what the ammo companies have done to it although I haven't tried Buffalo Bore or Tap. I have no need to since my 1500+ fps handloads give me all the power I want.

[Marshall]

Winchesters 145gr Silvertips run 1300fps.

[Cosmoline]

The .357 covers a much broader spectrum of load combinations than any standard semi. And it bests them in another area--SECTIONAL DENSITY. Try loading 180 or 200 grainers in a 9x19 :D This makes he .357 a viable hunting round, esp. when fired from a levergun. For my purposes, I have to be prepared to deal with the threat of getting entangled with a moose. It's true the FPS on the heavy hardcasts are slow, but with rifle-like sectional density they don't need as much velocity to penetrate the hell out of a target.

[The Lone Haranguer]

I have read comparative chronograph testing of .357 Magnum from snubnose revolvers and 9mm from 3-inch barrels. (The length of actual rifled bore is roughly the same.) IIRC, the 9mm in +P loadings is very close to (but not equalling or surpassing) the full-powered .357 loads. However, the 9mm has far less recoil and blast (and more rounds) than the .357 revolver. (I own and shoot both.) When you get into longer barreled revolvers and heavier bullets, the .357 leaves the 9mm far behind. So the extra power of the .357 is not a myth; what to use depends on what kind of gun or load and the purpose for using it.

[Lone_Gunman]

---

[Tezcatlipoca]

A couple guys have made my point already: Factory loads suck for the most part.

Double tap fixes that.


10mm is another example of this.

[Lone_Gunman]

Factory loads suck for the most part.


No, I don't think thats the point. A 125g JHP moving at 1200 fps does not suck, unless you are on the receiving end. The point is that 357 is not loaded to its full potential in general. But it is still a formidable cartridge.

[Bob79]

9mm does not recoil less than .357, it's the gun that recoils less. Semi-autos are almost all locked breech, so this "soaks" up a lot of recoil. Where with a wheel-gun, the recoil is abosorbed only by the weight of the gun, and the grips a little bit.

[Dr.Rob]

Certainly seems true in snub nosed .357s:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=220733&highlight=chrono

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=153864&highlight=chrono

Many factory 125 357's out of a shorty are on par with fast factory 9mm 124... however there is a BIG difference in BANG/Flash/Recoil.

You get into a 4 inch barrel, things look remarkably different.

[tube_ee]

Premium factory SD loadings for the 9x19 seem to be at the upper end of the performance envelope for the cartridge. There's only so much powder you can shove into that little bitty case. Equivalent loads for the .357 Magnum are at the lower end of the cartridge's capabilities, even in small handguns.

So, while there's some overlap, that overlap is just that. Top-end 9x19 == bottom-end .357 magnum. And it's clear that the .357 will do things that the 9x19 just can't. Even with the same bullet weights, a top-end .357 load is much faster than a top-end 9x19, and the .357 will shoot bullets, in both weight and profile, that simply aren't possible in a 9x19.

Add in the whole other realm of performance available in carbines, and the superiority of the .357 Magnum is complete.

Both cartridges shoot about the same diameter bullet, but that's as far as it's fair to compare them. Ballistically, there's no comparison. The .357 is the better cartridge, at least in terms of it's ultimate potential.

--Shannon

[Checkman]

I carry a Glock 19. My department issue the Federal 115 grain JHP +P+ . The old 9BP-LE load. It's a good round and has a velocity of 1300 fps from a four inch barrel. That is roughly the equivlant of the 110 grain 357 magnum JHP round.

However I don't see where the +P+ 124 grain 9mm load is the same as the classic 125 grain .357 magnum load. Another good load (124 gr +P+ 9mm) but it isn't the .357 magnum.

I like both calibers and own many handguns in both calibers. But you've got to be realistic. As another poster said it's comparing apples and oranges.

[ArfinGreebly]

It is well known that the 9x19 round is suitable for medium/big game.

Hunters everywhere grab their Glocks on opening day and bring home the venison with +p loads.

Or not.

A decent .357 load from a 4-inch barrel will do bison -- all the way through.

I may have mentioned that before.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2842070&postcount=39
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2844857&postcount=74
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2918620&postcount=17
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2970357&postcount=23


A time or two.

And that was from a PISTOL ("revolver" to you purists).

Just for fun, one of these days, I'm gonna do my own "box-o-truth" test with my Marlin Camp 9 and my Marlin 1894C and some milk jugs.

Hey, the results should be the same, right? After all, the rounds are "virtually the same" and all.

That's gonna be fun.

[Patrick Henry]

My question was not so much one about ballistics. Obviously, the .357 can attain far greater velocities and energies. It is also supposed to dump its energy in a vertically shaped "destruction cone" which involves the theory of "hydrostatic shock" which is supposed to make it so effective.

The .357 magnum (like .45 ACP) is surrounded by a certain mythology of how, for instance, getting hit with one is like being "struck by lightning" and a single shot can drop a man dead in his tracks. I read stories of how cops switching to semi-autos supposedly lamented losing their "magic bullet," the .357 magnum.

Is there any real evidence for this mythology?

I mean, with a .38 special you have the same bullet (.357 caliber) making the same size hole. So if .357 is more effective it must have to do with energy. But is it? (There is also the fact that the .38 for most of its service with police was used in lead roundnose bullets while the .357 had a flat nose.)

[Checkman]

Patrick Henry
The .357 magnum (like .45 ACP) is surrounded by a certain mythology of how, for instance, getting hit with one is like being "struck by lightning" and a single shot can drop a man dead in his tracks.

Is there any real evidence for this mythology?

No. There is no such thing as a magical deathray. Yes some loads are better than others. The .357 magnum is very good and the 25 acp isn't so good. Of course that's a pretty silly comparison, but hopefully you understand what I'm getting at.

The .357 magnum does have more power (whatever that means) then say the classic 38 LRN, but the old shot placement is even more important.

To loosely paraphrase Clint Smith it isn't much good to miss with the latest nuclear 7000 MAGNUM 1200 grain hollowpoint while your opponent plants six or seven .22LR's in your stomach.

My apologies to Clint Smith.;)

Nevertheless a handgun just isn't the best thing for stopping somebody. However handguns are portable, concelable and sure beat rocks.

There is a reason why armies issue rifles to their troops. They're simply better weapons for self-defense, but good luck walking into the local Dairy Queen with your Remington 700 or Winchester 94.

I expect now to hear from folks who will tell me how they used to be able to do that or how they live in one of the few towns in America where you can still do that.

[PedalBiker]

I have to disagree with the premise that a miss is entirely worthless at "stopping an opponent". In many cases the beginning of gunfire sends the perp running for the hills. In the case of a .357, being on the back side of a full load of 2400 is impressive enough. Being on the other side of the gun and hearing the blast and seeing the flameball has got to be a bit disconcerting. Even a .40 doesn't compare as far as the fireworks goes.

I still can't help but think that a big part of the .357's "stopping power" is the impressive dual flame ball (one at the end of the barrel and the figure 8 from the cylinder). Psychology is a huge part of this game.

[shc1]

I like em both but when the shootins over a wheel gun makes a better war club.
:D

[Checkman]

:scrutiny: I agree with you. But you can't count on that. As an example I've dealt with more than a few people high on Meth. It makes them very brave,mouthy and stupid. They think that they're invincible. Though they don't seem to have the inability to feel pain like those folks on Angel Dust a miss, even accomponied by an impressive fireball and loud report, might not do the trick. They'll just think they've become bulletproof or some other type of drug induced stupidity.

I've never been in a firefight, but I'm no stranger to violence. Trust me it's a very strange experience. People will suprise you. I'm 5'6" and I've taken down guys who were 6'00" and one memorable fellow who was 6'6". Yes I had help from other officers, but those big old bruisers thought they were going to have me for lunch. They were definite "NO" people. But I had made the decision that I was going hands on and that I would go first. They were looking down at me and underestimated me. In a way my aim was true. Yes I had help and yes if I had been by myself I probably would have had to resort to deadly force, but I still had better "shot placement" even though I was the equivland of a 38 special :o to those 44 magnums.:D

My two hardest fights were both females. They both weighed probably 100 pounds and they were both dianosed Schizophrenics. I underestimated both of them and the second time she hit me first while I was still trying to be Officer Friendly. I won, but they were both memorable fights. So much for psychology. :uhoh:

Hope I didn't ramble too much and please don't think that I'm suggesting that I'm some type of super-cop. I'm not. But I do want to go home at the end of my shift.:)

[MCgunner]

The effectiveness of the hot .357 Magnum load is very barrel length dependent. From a 2" snub, a +P 9mm is its equal or BETTER. However, from 4" guns it's a whole nuther ballgame. And, the .357 can shoot much heavier bullets. The street rep of the .357 was established with service 4-6" revolvers using the 125 grain JHP at 1400-1500+ fps. That's a powerful round and it's no bleepin' wonder it has such a street record. A 4" gun is in the 600 ft lbs range and the hottest of the hot 9mm rounds out of a 5" barrel are sub 450 ft lbs. But, in guns that will go in a pocket, there's much less difference. My preference is with the 9mm, actually, due to the fact that is is MUCH more pleasant to shoot in short barrels, more controllable, and quicker follow ups. If I'm going to carry on a hip IWB (as I did all day today with a 3" revolver) and can tote a 3" gun, then the .357 starts to leave the 9mm ballistically and by the time you're totin' it in a 4" gun, there's no contest, game, set, match .357 Magnum. I don't think a lot of shooters realize this when choosing a snubby, but I ain't puttin' up with the flash bang and recoil of a light pocket sized J frame .357, sorry. The 9 has just as much at least on paper and is a LOT more pleasant to get that second well aimed shot to the target. I'd rather carry a .38 load in that 12 ounce titanium wonder than the .357, personally.

[mpmarty]

most encounters with bad guys by us good guys are likely to involve low or no light situations, I really relish having some ancient piece of crap wheelgun making me blind the first time I shoot it. I'll pass thank you and keep my semi auto 45 acp and 10mm pistols. Y'all can have my share of primer extruding bullet pulling cylinder jamming wheel guns thank you.

[MCgunner]

I really relish having some ancient piece of crap wheelgun making me blind the first time I shoot it. I'll pass thank you and keep my semi auto 45 acp and 10mm pistols

ROFL, but I consider the 1911 the "ancient POC". Rather have two less rounds, but 6 for sure, than a jammamatic 1911 that'll only feed ball, thanks. I can't afford a high end 1911. I have a good .45, but I prefer carrying my revolvers in .357 Magnum. Yeah, it IS a man's gun, I'll admit. :D

[wcwhitey]

Sometimes a combination comes together that is not easily explained. We all know that the .357 is very good balistically. You have to give some credit to the platform in which it gained it's reputation. For the most part a 4" double action revolver in the holster of most cops in the US. The time frame in which it became popular in law enforcement (late 60's till the late 70's). It was popular at a time when most .38's were still loaded with the 158 RNL. It was far and away a big improvement over it. And also being in so many holsters there is a larger amount of shooting reports to study. Another point about the guns it was loaded in. Smiths, Colts, Rugers all high quality, accurate revolvers. When this all came about those who used .45's or 9mm's were using ball ammo. The .357 was also the laboratory for expanding bullets in handguns. It was almost always traveling fast enough enough to expand soft points, and flat nose soft points (remember super vel). There have been great strides in bullet design over the last few years. This has leveled the playing field somewhat, but I still stand by the fact that the nine will never be able to match the .357 as a man-stopper. Are 16 almost .357's better than six real ones, we can argue that too. I like my 9mm. I like having 46 rounds with me. But it is not a .357 Magnum. :)

[JE223]

3 gun,

Stop wasting your time on that site. He can't even close his own conclusion.."In all, the .357 provides the same performance as the 9x19mm, but penetrates significantly deeper."

Deeper penetration makes for better performance in most loads, not the same.

The 357mag is a more powerful round in just about all loads.

You present some succinct and reasonable arguments to support your point. Thank you for that. I believe that your reading comprehension is what is at fault in this case. 'Performance' in this case meant 'expanded diameter'. Notice how the other two components of a bullets wounding potential (penetration depth and velocity) were compared to the one factor that was named, the expanded diameter. That saves me from having to come out and name everything - I can just refer to it with creative wording and the point usually gets across.

[cherryriver]

I have 9s and I have .357s.
The .357 can shoot a 158gr semi-wadcutter. The 9 can't.
Given a choice, if I had to shoot something, I'd rather do it with a semi-wadcutter than a JHP.
I guess Elmer Keith is still talking to me, because within the limits of pistol cartridge speeds, the SWC is always "on".
Bill

[logical]

OK....so as long as I'm willing to cary a 3 pound, 4 inch barrel revolver, .357 is the better choice.

[3 gun]

As I pointed out before, the guy contradicts himself in his own conclusion.

The 357mag is not a myth. It has earned its rep the hard way. Sure some of the modern loads might be on the softer side because of some of the older pistol still in use. But even then the 357 is no 9mm.

Do a quick search on this or other boards for the one pistol to own if you could only have the one. It needs to do it all. Targets, training, SD against 2 and 4 legged beasts and reliable.

I'm pretty sure you'll find a 4" 357 the runaway winner for East of the Mississippi. You'd want a 44mag or bigger West of it because of the size of the bears out there.

The 357mag can do anything and everything a 9mm can do, not the other way around.

I'm not bashing the 9mm or the pistols that shoot it. Just the opposite, I'm a fan of the 9mm. I'm just not going to give it credit where it's not earned.

[MCgunner]

OK....so as long as I'm willing to cary a 3 pound, 4 inch barrel revolver, .357 is the better choice.

Christ, my 6.5" Blackhawk don't weigh 3 lbs! K frames are more like 2 lbs and the 3" SP101 is more like a pound and a half.

[CSA 357]

You can make remarks about the ancestery of my dog.have your doughts about the gas milage of my family sedan. spread the story , if you wish that my backyard barbecues could be best digested by a brood of arkansas razerbacks. but if you cast aspersions on my 357 magnum sixgun , get somebody to hold you coat. we will continue this discussion in the alley! (skeeter skelton) i always like this!:neener: *csa*

[Confederate]

I mean "PropAganda," not PropOganda.

Is the .357's reputation as "king of the street" fact or fiction?
I'd say ask someone who's been shot with a .357, but most of them are dead, that is, if they were hit with a 125gr JHP. Massad Ayoob is the one to ask as he's the one who made me a believer. Since reading some of his material, I've gone on to research many other writers and study the effects of the ammunition in the gun itself. Unfortunately, it's damn hard on any gun.

I'm also a believer in the concept that there's no such thing as a free lunch. There are negative points to using that load. Does it work? Yes, but that's not so much the point. The price tag is the sharp blast (recoil accompanied by a blinding fireball). It's kind of like brocolli. Anything that bad has to be good for you. And anything that jolting has to be bad for anyone in front of it.

Brasscatcher shows his leanings when he says: "terminal ballistic efficiency in handguns is generally realized with heavier bullets and low velocities." By this, I imagine he'd rather have a .45 hardball round over the .357 125gr JHP. That's his choice, of course, but it's not based on anything but legend. Bullet configuration, velocity, what the bullet's made of -- all these must be considered. And though I have a lot of faith in the old .45, probabilities of taking out someone with one round is significantly higher with the .357 load.

Also, remember Larry Flynt? He was hit with a .44 magnum twice and lived. I had a friend who shot a Moro in the chest at point blank range and had to use a blow from his .45 to end the fight. Even then, his assialant lived, so no one load is guaranteed.

The 125gr JHP is a nasty, vicious round. I've seen photos of the types of wounds it makes and I'll likely remain a believer. I'm sure there are those who have survived a point blank shot to the chest with a 125gr JHP, but if so, I've yet to see it documented.

One last thing. The 158gr JHPs are really not that great against humans. The penetration is just too great. For deer or other game, it's great. But the great thing about the .357 mag is that it's so derned versitile. There never has been another round quite like it.

Regarding the 9mm, so much of the problem isn't the size of the bullet, but its configuration. So much of it tends to be jacketed and the overall shape doesn't lend itself to opening up very well. But even so, the 115gr JHP has proven to be a very good round and every bit as good as most .45 ACPs. Under our incredibly stupid restrictions, ball ammo must be used in all military handguns. This alone ensures that the .45 legend will continue to live on in the minds of people who don't know any better.

[tasco 74]

INTERESTING THREAD.........................................

[roscoe]

The .357 can get almost twice the power of the hottest 9mm. Buffalo Bore and DoubleTap get in the neighborhood of 800 foot-pounds from the .357. The SP101 with 158 grain loads (DoubleTap and Buffalo bore give ~1400 fps out of a 3" barrel) can do most anything you could imagine, except kill six people. With 200 grain cast loads, it could do most anything except kill six bears. Try that with a 9mm.

If you want an autoloader to give you .357 performance, you simply have to step up to 10mm.

[Bullet]

wcwhitey
I like my 9mm. I like having 46 rounds with me.


Dang, you must live in a really bad neighborhood.

[Revolver Ocelot]

well they definitly exagerated it, if they want to compare the 9mm toi anything the 38 would be the next closest, however in terms of stoping power a lighter bullet with high velocity is not going to have as much time to expand or carry as much force behind it as a heavy bullet with lower velocity, don't get me wrong I love my 357 its my favorite gun but I have noticed this inherent problem and taken care of it by loading it with 200 grain loads from double tap.

[Stretchman]

No, I don't think thats the point. A 125g JHP moving at 1200 fps does not suck, unless you are on the receiving end :D :D :D

LMAO

Corbon 115 gr 9mm +P - Velocity 1350 FPS - Energy 468 ft lbs.

Works for me.

[Stretchman]

Sometimes a combination comes together that is not easily explained. We all know that the .357 is very good balistically. You have to give some credit to the platform in which it gained it's reputation. For the most part a 4" double action revolver in the holster of most cops in the US. The time frame in which it became popular in law enforcement (late 60's till the late 70's). It was popular at a time when most .38's were still loaded with the 158 RNL. It was far and away a big improvement over it. And also being in so many holsters there is a larger amount of shooting reports to study. Another point about the guns it was loaded in. Smiths, Colts, Rugers all high quality, accurate revolvers. When this all came about those who used .45's or 9mm's were using ball ammo.

I remember those days. Wasn't a cop. No, a lowly guard, but here's how I remember it.

Cops carried .38s. Sergeants could carry the .357 Magnum if they could qualify with it. We lived in a sleepy little mid sized town where there were about 6 cops per shift in our area. Yeah, that was the way it was, in the old days. Miami has changed a lot since then.

All of a sudden, guys started turning up dead everywher. Bodies all along the turnpike, gun battles breaking out in the streets, and heavy duty hardware, like Uzis and Mac-10s. Cops had their .38s and their shotties. Wasn't really a fair fight. The 9mm 147 FMJ was about the only thing that would reliably feed in the old S&W autos that they were trying to introduce, just to level the field somewhat.

That was a long time ago. Mess with Miami now, and you'll get SWAT responding with full auto MP5s, M4s, and a whole slew of other tactical weaponry that cops before could only dream of owning. Man, how things have changed. But, they grew in proportion to the threat. Oh yeah, and that mid sized town I am from? Went from 500,000 to about 4.5 million. Not that the 500K multiplied, the growth is from the 4 million or so refugees and immigrants. At one time they had the highest murder rate in the world. Number one for drug running. Top 10 for auto theft, rape, and a whole lot of other great crimes.

Glock helped them over the hump. That, and the 5906, IIRC, helped them make the change. Even if there are better cartridges out there, and the theoretical one shot stops, one thing holds true. Regardless of the number of fatalities, guys who otherwise may have escaped began taking hits. They got shot! Incarcerated. Scared of the cops. Which meant that a lot more LEO were going home at the end of shift. Bullets this and that. 9mm Hi caps end fights. 40 S&W seems to be improving on the amount of lead it takes to do it. Maybe the .357 sig will better it. Don't know. But hi cap mags saved lives. Stopped BGs. Ended gun battles. That is why the .38 and .357 are yesterdays news.

[CSA 357]

Well has the fat lady sang ? :neener:

[Brasso]

She sang. Passed out. And fell on the conductor.

[Wheeler44]

I owned a Black Hawk in the late '70's. The kind with two cylinders.
One 9mm. one .357/.38spcl. I lived in Alaska at the time in bear country. When I carried that gun in the woods I had the .357 cylinder in and had it loaded towards the upper end of the range in current reloading hand books. even then I was concerned that it might not be "enough" if I came across an angry bear. There was no way that I would cary that gun in the woods loaded with 9mm. period. end of story. I kept that 9mm. for practice and home defense where extra penetration could be a bad thing! 'though I'm not a fan of SA revolvers I miss that gun and wish I still had it. Anyone who ever had one will probably tell you the same thing. The difference was noticable at both ends of the story, shooting and examining different target medium.
The .357 loaded hot was a lot harder hitting.

[Headless]

For SD, I'd rather have 17 124gr @ 1250-1300 fps (that are easy to reload!) than 6 145gr @ 1300fps (that are a PITA to reload). For hunting, you could load out some seriously beastly .357 loadings that eclipse the 9mm entirely. Problem is, in an SD situation you only have 6 available and the recoil becomes quite vicious if you do decide to really load the 357 to it's potential (hand loading your sd rounds of course brings an entirely new set of legal issues too..) requiring longer time for follow up shots or a larger gun as a compromise -- Different round for different purposes. When you've got one shot to nail the deer and take it down and you have zero possibility of needing to fire rapidly at multiple targets... .357 all the way.

[Nematocyst]

Problem is, in an SD situation you only have 6 available and the recoil becomes quite vicious if you do decide to really load the 357 to it's potential...In my SW 686+ (which I anticipate having by Saturday if everything works out as planned), I'll have 7 rnds.
If I can't do it with 7 .357, then natural selection deserves to take me out. It's been a good life.

As for "quite vicious", I think I'll reserve that label for .454 Casull.

[Archie]

The .357 Magnum in full power version is still a very capable fight stopper. However, there are drawbacks.

.357 Magnum has horrid muzzle blast.

.357 Magnum has substantial recoil. Not brutal, but substantial.

.357 Magnum has size and weight issues. Even the sleek and trim Model 19 S&W weighs more than a Glock 17.

.357 Magnum has - in a normal revolver - limited round count. Therefore, the shooter has to be able to deliver hits rather than shots.

.357 Magnum has price issues. They have a higher per unit cost these days than polymer guns.

So, most departments have switched over to some multi-shot, polymer handgun.

Most lawmen these days didn't learn to shoot at home. They were taught a minor amount about handguns in the service (if they were in the service) and get just enough training in the department to check the 'qualified' box on the training evaluation for the state standards division. (There are exceptions; if you are one of those exceptions, you know what I mean.)

Non-police citizens seem to 'follow' the police thinking on such matters. They think the police know about guns without realizing lawyers and budget makers decide which gun gets carried by the local gendarmerie.

The upshot is, many younger shooters are convinced high-capacity polymer shooters in relatively minor calibers are the way to go. This forms a self-replicating cycle.

The reality is, 9x19 is a myth.

[Nematocyst]

Archie,

NICELY written! Thanks.

Very interesting, though-provoking points.

One question about this part, please:

357 Magnum has horrid muzzle blast.I hear that :eek: and wish to continue hearing after shooting it in an emergency situation.

So this question: as a 12-ga owner who is strongly considering trading in the 9 semi-auto for a 357 wheel gun (well, OK, he's probably even stubbornly already made up his mind and unable to hear logic and reasoning :uhoh: :rolleyes: ),
I have one question: in a general sense (I don't need hard data), how does the horrid muzzle blast of a 4" 357 with medium and/or heavy, full-house rnds compare with the horrid muzzle blast from a 2.75" and 3" magnum rnds from a 12 ga, say with an 18" barrel?

My sense is, my shotgun makes a bigga bada boom, too, but for good reason. But I don't know how they compare.

It would seem to be a function of how far the ends of the barrels are from the shooter (i.e, much further with the shotgun), and perhaps how barrel length affects how well powder burn is completed (but I'm beyond the edge of my knowledge with that last point).

Nem

[Checkman]

.357 magnum armor piercing rounds can shoot through an engine block.

It's against the Geneva Convention to use .357 magnum rounds in combat. If you're captured with a .357 magnum revovler you can be executed "on-the-spot" as a war crimminal or terrorist. :scrutiny:

The .357 magnum muzzle blast can blister the paint on walls when fired indoors.

The .357 magnum will create a vacumn whne it hits somebody and can literally suck a persons organs out the exit wound.:what: :eek:

I swear to the all-mighty that I've heard that 3rd myth and I'm not making it up.:D

Boy I'm glad that I own four of these "Death Machines". I've got no worries when the Zombies come shambling down my street. A couple near misses should just cause their heads to explode from the overpressure.:rolleyes:

[tube_ee]

I've shot a 12 extensively, without hearing protection... I use a 12 for upland birds, and you can burn up a heck of a lot of ammo hunting doves... especially if you shoot like I do.

No discomfort whatsoever, even after shooting 3-4 boxes in a morning. Well, at least my ears don't hurt. My shoulder and my pride have been different stories.

With the .357, even shooting 158-grain American Eagle FMJ target loads, which I think are fairly mild for .357 Magnums, my ears rang painfully for quite a while. It hurts.

Would I be worried about that if I had to actually shoot someone, no, of course not... but I won't shoot my 4" Trooper Mk III without earplugs.

As to muzzle flash, I shot some 110-grain JHPs my dad loaded up over 19.5 grains of H-110... about 4 feet of white fire from the muzzle, and about a 1 foot disk coming out from the cylinder gap. At least that's what my astonished eyes reported to my temporarily stalled brain. The backblast ruffled my hair, and at least one head popped out of every occupied lane at the (indoor) range. The chorus of "What the hell was that??" was almost as loud as the shots. The grin on my face relocated my ears.

--Shannon

[P. Plainsman]

Among common factory .357 Mag rounds (I said common, now), the one that really sings compared to a 9mm+P pistol is the Winchester 145 grain Silvertip. As Marshall noted above, that thing is good for 1300 fps from a 4" sixgun barrel.

Compare it to common 147 grain 9mm loads -- even from service pistols you're looking at 950-1000 fps. That's a big difference. Plus the .357 Silvertip is accurate and consistent, with notably low flash (Win uses proper powders).

Really good round, in my view. But it's still darn loud.

I find myself leaning toward a CZ 75B or P-01 full of 124 grain 9mm+P these days.

PS:

With the .357, even shooting 158-grain American Eagle FMJ target loads, which I think are fairly mild for .357 Magnums, my ears rang painfully for quite a while. It hurts.

Are they mild? I know the 158 grain American Eagle JSP load is considered rather hot for factory ammo. (It's great in lever carbines.)

[Nematocyst]

about 4 feet of white fire from the muzzle, and about a 1 foot disk coming out from the cylinder gap.:what:

<asks self: is trading in that 9mm on a .357 really a wise decision?>

[Eagle103]

As to muzzle flash, I shot some 110-grain JHPs my dad loaded up over 19.5 grains of H-110... about 4 feet of white fire from the muzzle, and about a 1 foot disk coming out from the cylinder gap. At least that's what my astonished eyes reported to my temporarily stalled brain. The backblast ruffled my hair, and at least one head popped out of every occupied lane at the (indoor) range. The chorus of "What the hell was that??" was almost as loud as the shots. The grin on my face relocated my ears.

H110 is fun stuff.:evil:
To quote my 10 year old son, "Dad, I don't like those. They hurt.".:D