[PennsyPlinker]

Greetings all

I live in PA, which you might assume from my screen moniker. My oldest daughter lives in FL. Her 21st birthday is approaching, and she has asked Daddy for a pistole. She does not have any specific preferences, although I have some definite ideas for her to try. I have a couple questions, and I would appreciate some knowledgeable feedback.

First, while she grew up shooting my various guns, she does not know a whole lot about the real inner workings of maintaining a firearm, and is not up on all the intricacies of different models, features, etc. I will be visiting her shortly and plan to do some shopping with her. Obviously, I am going to be doing most of the talking, and I will ultimately pay for the gun, although it will be hers and registered in her name. I suspect that she will write the check or hand over her card simply to make things a little easier for both of us and for all those who wring their hands about straw purchasers. How much do I need to worry about that becoming a hassle? We will both have plenty of ID with us, mine including my PA CCW permit.

Second, if I would decide to give her one of my existing guns, how much hassle is it going to be to get it into her hands? Part of the problem is that a) I am flying to FL and b) my visit is going to be a few weeks shy of her birthday.

I am not really worried about the legality of anything here, just trying to anticipate trouble or delay from those who don't know or don't care or don't want to be involved.

I may have other questions as this thread (hopefully) develops a bit.

Thanks.

[Black Majik]

Congrats to you and your daughter. I'm pretty sure that as long as you're paying, and she's filling out the required paperwork it won't be considered a straw purchase.

Is she going to get her CCW permit also?

[Majic]

If she pays and fill out the paperwork then there will be no problem. You can either give her the money before you go in the store or after you have left the store. The money will be a gift from you to your daughter.
You can carry the gun in your luggage if you fly by following all of the airline's policies on firearms. Once in Fla you just hand the firearm over to your daughter and you would have gifted it to her. I don't know if Fla has any kind of registration laws so she should check into that.

[Dr. Dickie]

There are no state registration polices in Florida. She will have to wait three days for the purchased firearm (until she gets her CCW).

[Lupinus]

Fl has no registration

And I have never heard of FL having any waiting period before unless it is a local thing.

To make everything as legal and outside any grey areas either give her the money before or after the purchese, her doing the paper work and you handing over the cash is a no no.

[PennsyPlinker]

Thanks guys. This all sounds like what I expected, although the bit about just handing her the gun sounds a little iffy. If that were the case, why do we have to have things transferred by FFL types? Yeah, she is my daughter, and I trust her to behave responsibly with it, but she no longer lives at home with me and Mrs. Plinker, so I don't want my name associated with it should something unfortunate come to pass, such as a robbery. I thought about taking one of mine, or even two with me on my trip, but that could raise some hassles with other people. I will be on business and staying in the homes of people who I do not know, and I think they might be a little upset if it came to be known I was toting a hogleg with me!

Not only that, there is the security issue. Suppose I get to someone's house and they have a bratty, undisciplined teenager? I know, hard to imagine it could happen, but just in case? FL honors my license, but unless I am going to strap it to my, well, you get the idea, I can't keep it on me all the time. It is something to think about though. Good thing the one has a lock built right into it! :evil:

Lupinus, I just got off the phone with a gunshop owner in her locale, and the lady confirmed a 3 day waiting period.

Black Majik, she is planning on the CCW thing as soon as she can.

[mike101]

I would recommend a Ruger DA revolver. They are the most fool proof guns out there. Very easy to break down and clean. Transfer bar. Get a stainless. Maybe a SP101, or if you can find a used Speed Six, they are real gems.
Good Luck!

[Neo-Luddite]

The straw purchase thing may come up. It did with me and my wife buying a marlin rifle as a gift (wanted it on my card). Bring cash, have daughter do physical transaction.

[pax]

Pennsy ~

In order to fly with the gun, you have to bring along a secure, locked case. That pretty well takes care of the "What do I do with it in someone else's house?" question, I think.

I believe in order to transfer a handgun to your out-of-state daughter legally, you cannot simply hand her the gun. I think it needs to go through an FFL. Stop by the BATFE's FAQs (http://www.atf.gov/faqs.htm) page to do your research, and be sure to check out if there are any state laws that might trip you up -- http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/statelaws/22edition.htm or www.handgunlaws.us or www.gunlaws.com

Also, please direct your daughter to my website, www.corneredcat.com, and have her read the articles titled, "Semi vs Revolver" and "Trying on a Gun." Both of those will help her intelligently narrow down any choices you present to her.

Congratulations to both of you, and have fun!

pax

[roadrider18]

I bought my 15 y.o. daughter a Kimber Target Stainless II 9mm last year.

Rather, then have the ole man impart bad wisdom and technique, I got her lessens with the resident small arms instructor at our former range.

He boosted her confidence and got her acclimated to the recoil of the 9.

Did I mention she goes to the same high school Chris Tilley graduated from?

http://www.pdhsc.com/pressrelease.htm

There is no doubt there better CCW's, but, she wanted a 1911 style handgun.

Who can blame her?

[Derby FALs]

What a sad state of affairs. :(

[PennsyPlinker]

Thanks for the links Pax! I have been to your site in the past, but it has been a while, and I appreciate the reminder.

I appreciate the suggestions from you others as well, although...

What a sad state of affairs.

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. :confused:

[hso]

I think he means that it's tragic that you have to wonder what laws you're violating if you want to give your own daughter and handgun to protect herself with.

BTW, the gun for her is the gun that fits her. Read Pax's site carefully. She has gone to a lot of trouble to point out how to pick a gun that fits the individual. Since the shape of your hand and length of your fingers is probably different than your daughter's (not to mention the angle of your wrist and forearm) what fits you may not fit her. Unless you know she fits a 1911 or CZ or BHP or S&W it's best to find out first and then pick the subset of that family that she likes.

[DogBonz]

or in cash or whatever. Then you gift the money to her in check form, or moneyorder (just keep a receipt of some kind), that way you get a gift too... a tax write off. Under the gifting rules, you can write off gifts of up to $11,000 per year, and the receiver doesn't have to declare any thing under that $11k as income.

Keep that in mind next time you buy an expensive gift, or a car... You are allowed to make a one time "gift" to your spouse of up to $50k.

Pretty cool huh.

[Derby FALs]

I think he means that it's tragic that you have to wonder what laws you're violating if you want to give your own daughter and handgun to protect herself with.

Aye. Sad...

[Aguila Blanca]

'Tis indeed a sad state of affairs, but the reality is that we don't know who the BATFE will try to make "an example" of next. Technically, a straw purchase is when one person buys a firearm for a second person who is not eligible to buy it for him/herself. However, the way things are going anytime one person fills out the papers and another person hands over the cash (or even hands the cash to the buyer inside the store), somebody is likely to call it a straw purchase. Therefore, as others have sagely advised, it is better to let your daughter ring it up on her credit card, then you can reimburse her later, in the privacy of her home.

As to one of your guns -- last I knew, PA had a sort of de facto registration, so I rather imagine that your guns are "on paper" as ... your guns. Which means you don't want to be just trundling it down to FL and handing it over. The only way to clear the paper trail is to transfer it through FFLs in PA and FL.

IMHO it's a lot cleaner to simply let her buy a new gun and you reimburse her for it.

[Sheldon J]

When my little girl turned 21 someone asked if I was going to buy her a drink, I replied no I was going to buy her something that might save her life someday, (and did but that is another story).
On her 21st I took her to a local gun store N my only guide line was make it a wheel gun, N .357 minimum, (low experience with hand guns), she picked out a nice SW 649, N I bought her a K of .38 special to practice with, shot it so much she ended up buying a Dillon SDB to reload (had to teach her that too) ain't life grand.:D
One more thing... some day she will thank you and you will be proud of what you did...good for you!

[PennsyPlinker]

Thanks for the continued replies everyone, and I am glad for the clarification. Yeah, it is a shame. When I was a Kid, my Dad gave me my first rifle when I was 12. I bought another rifle on my own when I was 15 - mail order from Sears! :eek: Now it is jump through hoops, file papers, wait three days, and fiddle around with the laws in two states. I probably will just give her the money to buy something rather than transfer one of mine, although I got a great deal on my Taurus. If I passed it on, I would have a reason to replace it. :D

I sent her the link to Pax's site and told her where she suggested she start. I am all for a gun fitting the owner. She has handled, and thinks my CZ 75 P-01 is a little too big, so the two I want her to try (of my own) are a Taurus 85 Totally Titanium and a Kel Tec P-3AT. I'm sort of leaning towards the wheel gun, whether Taurus or something else, just so she has an easier time of getting used to a gun without the added complication of an automatic, but I told her the decision is up to her.

[Derby FALs]

I would give her the one of my own, that was a bequeath while she still lived at home, and be done with it. You remember the one? :evil: Make sure she still has the note you wrote her when she was 18. I bought my daughter a nice little Beretta 21A when she was 13. I have added to her collection over the years. It is not a straw purchase if you buy a weapon with the intent of gifting it. ATF is specific about that. A "straw purchase" is when the actual buyer of a firearm uses another individual to fill out the 4473.

[Majic]

This all sounds like what I expected, although the bit about just handing her the gun sounds a little iffy. If that were the case, why do we have to have things transferred by FFL types?
Not all states require all transactions to go thru a FFL. In some states a face to face sale is no more than a buyer handing the seller the payment and the seller handing the buyer the firearm. This can be done hundreds of times and as far as a name being on record for the gun only the last purchaser who bought it from a dealer will show up. Some places have no registration so there will be no way to register the gun if your daughter lives in one of those states.

[chetth]

Have her visit you in PA, there is no burden of any kind on transfers between parents and children...

Pennsylvania State Law

Title 18. Crimes and Offenses
Chapter 61. Firearms and Other Dangerous Articles

6111. Sale of firearms.

(a) Time and manner of delivery...
(b) Duty of seller...
(c) Duty of other persons. Any person who is not a licensed importer, manufacturer or dealer and who desires to sell or transfer a firearm to another unlicensed person shall do so only upon the place of business of a licensed importer, manufacturer, dealer or county sheriff’s office, the latter of whom shall follow the procedure set forth in this section as if he were the seller or the firearm. The provisions of this section shall not apply to transfers between spouses or to transfers between a parent and child or to transfers between grandparent and grandchild.

[Prince Yamato]

The straw purchases thing is a FEDERAL LAW. GCA 1968, I believe. She pays for the gun, then you give her the coincidental gift in cash or check for whatever that gun actually cost AFTER you're back at her place.

[mp510]

Congrats to you and your daughter. I'm pretty sure that as long as you're paying, and she's filling out the required paperwork it won't be considered a straw purchase.
I recall seeing a sign in one gunshop that said the individual paying for the firearm by cash, check, credit card, etc... was required to fill out a 4473.

You can carry the gun in your luggage if you fly by following all of the airline's policies on firearms. Once in Fla you just hand the firearm over to your daughter and you would have gifted it to her. I don't know if Fla has any kind of registration laws so she should check into that.
That's a federal offense. A private party transfer can only be conducted between two individuals who are residents of the same state. If the PA resident wished to gift a handgun already in poession to the FL resident, it would need to be transfered to the FL resident via a FL FFL dealer, and the recipient would be required to meet all federal purchase requirements.

Another route to look into is gift certificates. Many gunstores offer them- maybe it would be a good idea to call around and find one that does.

[scurtis_34471]

I have never heard of FL having any waiting period before unless it is a local thing.

Florida has a three-day waiting period for handguns unless you are trading in a handgun or hold a Florida Concealed Weapons License. There is no waiting period for rifles. I am really looking forward to getting my license, because that waiting period is a pain. It does not include weekends or holidays and it means three full days after the purchase. If you buy the gun on Friday, you can pick it up on Wednesday the next week.

[Run&Shoot]

I would recommend a revolver unless you know for sure she can comfortably work the slide of a semi-auto. Neither of my daughters would be onsidered wimpy, infact the youngest can do 50+ pushups in two minutes (not the girlie knee-ups), and a ton of sit-ups in two minutes as well. Yet, she is not comfortable working the slide of a semi under stress.

The two semis she was almost on the verge of liking (everything but the slide pull) are the G19 and XD, even the subcompact.

For revolvers I think anything with a smooth, medium weight trigger pull and an exposed hammer. The SP-101 3", GP100 in 3" or 4" barrel, or a S&W K-frame 4". I am sure it was just a singl instance, but the last L-frame I looked at had a horrible trigger, but an older 1980s K-frame has a great one.

The important things are that it fits hr hand, she can operate the trigger pull well (including sufficient finger reach), and she can operate the load/unload cycle confidently. A .38 is sufficient as many women will not want to shoot .357s (thought there vertainly are some). But if you get a .357 then she has that option.

[.cheese.]

Florida does have waiting periods in some parts. Here in Miami there is a waiting period for both handguns and long-guns. In Broward County I believe its only for handguns. Elsewhere I don't know.

Of course, with a CCW, I bypass all that stuff.

As for what to get, I'd say a .38 special revolver, or a 9mm Glock. I say Glock for an autoloader because take-down for cleaning is very easy (one of the reasons why all of my handguns are Glocks).

Smith 642 might fit the bill for revolver, and Glock 26 for an autoloader/bottomfeeder. Both are compact so she can put it in her purse. I don't think a Glock 19 would fit easily.

If she wants something other than those, the Walther PPK seems to be popular amongst women.

Or, she could go with something tiny like a NAA super-compact .32, or a Keltec .32 or the P3AT .380 (I didn't have good results with mine though so I sold it). If you get lucky though the Keltec .380 can be an excellent mouse-gun (but you have to win the Keltec lottery).

Other than that, straw-purchases if I'm not mistaken mainly apply to buying guns for people who otherwise can't legally purchase them. Unless the laws are different in PA, you can give a gun as a gift, so long as they are legally able to posess it, and in her case if she's 21 and will be getting a CCW, she more than fits the bill. I think the age to posess a handgun here is 16 (if gifted, but not with ammo stored or with it loaded - that has to be under adult supervision). Maybe I'm wrong and it's 18. I don't have my book of laws handy. :o

Best of luck.

Tell her if I ever meet her and ask her out - don't shoot me! ;)

[PennsyPlinker]

Talking with a gunshop owner in her locale, she has to be 21 to purchase one. Since she is going to be 21 in a couple of months, that is probably going to be the easiest route to go. I will probably take my two little ones with me so she can check them out at the range, and then we will go from there. Knowing her, she will want something "new", although she has grown up a lot since she got away from the stupid old people who raised her.

With all the convolutions and laws to observe, and little things waiting for some bureaucrat to discover and make life miserable, I think the easiest thing to do is pick out a gun, give her the money, and let her do the rest. I appreciate all the advice here.

[Joey_the_Wolf]

+1 on a good .357 mag revolver. Also, both my mother, and my sister (15 years old) can handle my mom's Glock 23 and my own 1911A1 pistol without any problems. I always find it impressive when my 15 year old sister runs through a few magazines in my 1911 and asks for more :) (no recoil issues)
Neither of them have big hands or are very physically strong. My mom is only 5'4 and thin. My mom had some problems cycling the slide of the Glock 23 (and frankly so did I), but when she downloaded the magazines by one round (loaded 12 instead of 13) that went away really fast. So maybe a polymer framed pistol such as a Glock or an XD might work. Easy to use, can run dry or dirty, and holds 12+ rounds of .40 or 15+ of 9mm. Might be worth a look.

EDIT:

Also, I am 20 years old. Will be 21 in April, and about 6 months ago, my mom bought me the .45 as a gift. I was there with her at the gun store, I picked it out, and the gun store clerks all knew the gun was for me. When the legality issues came up, they said that so long as my mom bought it under her name, and then gave it to me as a gift, that I could legally own (but not carry) the pistol without any problems. He even called his lawyer to verify. I live in Florida, so you should have no problems with legal issues if you buy it for her, and then give her the cash later on.

[Aguila Blanca]

I would give her the one of my own, that was a bequeath while she still lived at home, and be done with it. You remember the one? Make sure she still has the note you wrote her when she was 18. I bought my daughter a nice little Beretta 21A when she was 13. I have added to her collection over the years. It is not a straw purchase if you buy a weapon with the intent of gifting it. ATF is specific about that. A "straw purchase" is when the actual buyer of a firearm uses another individual to fill out the 4473.
It is not a straw purchase if you buy a gun with the intention of giving to someone who is eligible to receive it. It IS, however, a criminal offense to claim the gun you are giving to your daughter today was given to her three years ago.

Dunno about where you grew up, but in my world that's called "lying." If you do it to an LEO, it's called "making a false statement." Writing a note today and claiming it was written three years earlier is called "falsifying evidence."

You have a strange sense of humour, Mate. Do you always give advice that might land people in prison?

[Derby FALs]

Dunno about where you grew up, but in my world that's called "lying." If you do it to an LEO, it's called "making a false statement." Writing a note today and claiming it was written three years earlier is called "falsifying evidence."

That would be, wouldn't it? Strange thing is I never said that. All my guns are as good as my daughter's. She is the only other person that has the combo to the safe. She got that when she turned 18...:scrutiny:


Ya know. Some of this stuff, it really has come time to take a stand. Or, lick a boot.