[marksman13]

Need some help again guys. The fact is that I love guns. I like to shoot em, collect em, hell I even like to work on em. Problem is, I don't any type of formal training in the gunsmithing profession. Just kinda wanted to know how some of you got into the profession. Did you go to a trade school? Take online courses? Were you involved in an apprenticeship? This is something I am very interested in making a career out of someday. If it works out and I am pretty good at it, how much can I expect to make in this field? Thanks in advance for any input.

[1911Tuner]

For me, it was kinda by default by bein' a regular customer at a gun shop.
A guy came in with a 1911 pistol that his kid took apart (yeh...Suuuuure)
and I put it back together for him. Another one comes in with a function problem, and I fix it for him. Pretty soon, I'm gettin' calls from the dealer.
A little later I'm workin' at the shop part-time...sellin' and tweakin'. It kinda snowballed after that. 'Fore long, I was doin' less sellin' and more smiffin'.
Near the end of my tenure, I was doin' mostly smiffin' mainly because of all the non-standard PITA 1911 clones and variants that started poppin' up along about that time.

Kinda cool that the man was also a Class 3 dealer...and all that implies.:cool:

[dfariswheel]

Here again is my answer to this question:

Here's the hard, cold facts about gunsmithing.

If you're planning on being in the business as a pro, you're not going to get there with a correspondence or some kind of online course.

Businesses that hire gunsmiths want people who they KNOW have learned the job and can do the work.
That means a diploma from a good attendance school like Colorado School of Trades, Trinidad College, Lassen College, or one of the others.

Show up looking for a job as a gunsmith with a correspondence course diploma, and they'll file your application in the waste can.
This is just the way it IS.
They need PROVEN skills and knowledge, and you don't get that by mail or online.

You can get a correspondence course and start your own business, but I'll take any amount of money that you'll bust out in less than a year.

A machine shop course to teach you how to run a lathe and milling machine is very good to have, but DO NOT think that being a good machinist makes you a good gunsmith.
Most good gunsmiths are good machinist, but most good machinist's are NOT qualified to be gunsmiths, and often are terrible at it.

Military armorers are NOT gunsmith's.
For the most part, they're parts switchers. They remove defective parts and drop in new parts.
If a gun needs more involved repairs, they're sent to a higher level to the REAL gunsmiths.
True military gunsmith's have a much higher level of training, and are almost always career military personnel. Getting into this level isn't easy.
At the very top are the true gunsmiths working for military marksmanship or special operations units.
There are very few of these people and they're the absolute cream of the crop with many years of training and experience.

Some people recommend learning as an apprentice.
This can be a good way to start, BUT... It all depends on WHO the teacher is.
The person you apprentice with may himself be a hack, and may be teaching you to be a hack too.
You'll have no real way to judge.
Plus, unless the teacher is a nationally know gunsmith AND is known for turning out qualified students, his training is also worthless when it comes to getting hired.
Again, employers hire people with good credentials, and the word of an unknown gunsmith isn't good enough.

Starting up a gunsmith business takes BIG bucks for machinery and tools. You'd be starting off cold with no customer base, and you'll starve out quickly for simple lack of paying customers.
Remember, something like 40% of all business's bust out, no matter WHAT they are or who's running them.
That's simply new business attrition.

Also, remember as a self-employed gunsmith, you're NOT a gunsmith.....You're really a business man who gets to spend a few hours a day doing gunsmithing.
MOST of your day is spent doing business man things like filling out forms for the government, talking to potential customers, ordering materials and parts, and dealing with unreasonable customers.
If you're lucky, you'll get to do a little gun work somewhere in there.

The only way to make it starting out on your own is to have a "day job" and gunsmith on the side.
Still, very few make it this way either.
It's tough to put in 8 hours on the main job, then come home and do a little gunsmithing, and STILL have to do all the business man stuff.

If you're really serious about this, bite the bullet and go to the best attendance school you can.
At least 6 months to a year before you graduate, start looking for a job.
By graduation day, you should have a FIRM job offer.
Go to work for a company like one of the gun makers, a custom gun maker, the government, a police department as an armorer, or for one of the industries who employ gunsmiths for research projects.

Spend some time working for the OTHER guys. THEY'LL be doing all the business man stuff while you put in a solid 8 hours gunsmithing and really learning the trade.

After you've built up your skills, established your reputation as a known quantity in the industry, built up a customer contact base, and bought the equipment a little at a time, THEN you can go out on your own.

However, you're STILL subject to that 40% bust-out rate for new businesses.

Last, DO NOT expect to make a lot of money as a gunsmith.
If you figure it by the hour, most self-employed gunsmiths are making not much more than minimum wage.
Few if any of them are working ONLY 40 hour weeks.

[Specialized]

Here's the hard, cold facts about gunsmithing.

Gee, dfariswheel... what's the bad news? :rolleyes:

All kidding aside, yours is a pretty pessimistic viewpoint. Would you mind sharing from what vantage point you've gathered these opinions? Being a 1911 tinkerer myself, with an interest in getting more involved in building 1911-style guns, I'm always looking for any secret ingredient that a gunsmith might posess that would make them rise to the top of this craft. Having spoken to several of the finest around (mostly via competitive shooting and gun-related events), the one common denominator I've found so far is a genuine passion for what they do. In your view, what steps or gifts might they bring to the equation that would allow them to escape the bleak future you're describing? Thanks for your input!

[dfariswheel]

My original training was as a watchmaker, at which I became a Master watchmaker.
In school I saw a full range of people there to be trained as watchmakers, and from my experience, this range holds for other skills too, including gunsmithing.
The range runs from people who have the natural talent and who really want to do good, to the guys who just don't have the talent and never will.

One of the hardest things to find is an instructor who will be a stand-up guy and will flat tell someone he just isn't any good at it.
Most schools have trouble doing this because they're there to make money.
Unfortunately, most of these people are left to find this out when they try to get going in the trade and they fail.

Not to be too "down" on it, but I often get asked about becoming a gunsmith by people who think:
A. ANYONE can be a successful gunsmith if they just want to.
B. Gunsmithing is a great way to make scads of money.
C. You just open up shop and beat the customers off with a stick.

A. Not everyone has the talent, the drive, and the "eye" to be a good gunsmith. Desire plays a part, but I've seen people who wanted to be watchmakers so bad they could taste it, but who simply lacked whatever it takes to be good at it.
No amount of hands-on work with the instructors could bring them up to the necessary level.
I've seen the same in gunsmith's. They LOVE guns and working on them, but they simply lack the ability to do a professional job of it.
A lot of the time people think you're just being too critical when they show you their work that they've been told was profession quality, and it stinks.
I've seen people who were actually getting paid for gunsmithing who were nothing but absolute hacks.
Most of you have seen the same thing.

There is such a thing as "the eye". This is the ability to just look at something and instinctively KNOW it's right....or wrong.
Many people can't do this and no amount of training can teach it.
I've seen people's work that had customers just thrilled at the quality, but when I looked at it it was terrible.
You can develop skills, which is what training and practice is, but you have to have the talent for it, and not everyone has the talent.

B. MOST gunsmiths don't make a lot of money, especially ones who are self-employed.
The people who make good money are either working for a bigger company and getting a good salary plus benefits, OR those people who OWN a big company and are paying other gunsmiths to do the everyday work.
The guy in the local shop isn't making big bucks, but people like Bill Wilson can make good money.
I was recently asked by a man who wanted to know if he went to gunsmiths school he could make $90,000 the first year.
Sure he can, if he robs banks on the side.

C. ALL businesses have to get established and build up a customer base. Most all businesses go through a very tight time when just starting up, and if that time is just a little TOO tight, you fold.
Few gunsmiths can make a real living doing local work unless they're located in a big city with a large customer base, and it has to be a GUN city.
Most gunsmiths need to take in mail-in work and trade work from gun shops to succeed, and for that you have to become known.

That time lag between opening up shop and becoming known is high risk.
Again, a major part of it is, you are a business man. You'd better be just as good at that as at gunsmithing.
MOST potential new gunsmiths totally blow that part off, figuring a good craftsman can always make it.
Guess again.

Finally, WHAT does it take to be a good gunsmith, or any other craftsman for that matter?
1. You have to be the type of person who constantly tries to do a "perfect" job. Since there is not such thing as a perfect job, you have to be the type that gets his kicks TRYING to do the impossible.
You need to be the type person who always finds flaws in the job, but who likes trying to do it better each time.
In a 30 year career as a watchmaker, gunsmith, and holster maker, plus a lifetime as a hobby buff, I've never ONCE done a perfect job at ANYTHING.
Each and every time I saw where I could have done it better, and next time out, I tried to do just that.

2. You have to be able to do the work RIGHT....FAST.
I've seen some really great watchmakers and gunsmiths who couldn't make in the business because they were just too slow.
The faster you can do it, the more you can do, and the more you can make.
The problems start when you need money BAD, to stay in business and you're temped, or forced to cheat on the quality.
That's a rapid downward spiral to busting out.

3. You have to have "the eye".
This is something almost impossible to explain, but very real.
You can look at something and somehow it just looks "right".
The closest I can come to it is to look at a Colt Python revolver, then look at a Japanese or German made revolver.
The Python somehow looks "right" while the Japanese or German revolver looks just "wrong".

4. You need to be a bit of a loner.
If you need slaps on the back or people telling you how good you are, you might not do well. You have to take satisfaction from doing a good job, and competing against yourself, constantly trying for that impossible "perfect" job.

5. You have to have common horse sense.
Simply thinking about it will often tell you NOT to do something, even if the customer demands it.


I could go on, but I think you know what I mean here.

[rmw]

I gotta tell you dfariswheel's statements ring true . I graduated from Lassen in Ca with a 4.0 and as far a I know at the time there was only one other guy who had done that , while I was attending school I started working for the head instructor who also ran a "to the trade" business on the side , so this offered me a learning opportunity not offered to many other people . I know this is going to sound egotistical but I was a very good gunsmith . I made my living as a gunsmith for about 10 years but have found that there are allot easier ways to make a living, and I made pretty decent money for a gunsmith . It really is a labor of love . Right now everyone wants to specialize and I agree that doing one thing well is easier, but very few gunsmiths can make a living just working on 1911's plus like anything else doing the same thing over and over again can become pretty boring . I have got over it now but at one point in my life I never wanted to checker another 1911 front strap , there are allot of guys out there that can build a 1911 just as well as Bare,Brown or Wilson but these guys were/are good business men , they promote there product/company and this is another skill set . I don't know if they did it or hired it done but they are gunsmithing,manufacturing,wholesale and retail and probably a few other things I am not thinking of right now . I know people look at them and think if they can do it so can I "and maybe you can" but they are the exception not the rule . A love of guns alone is probably not going to do it . I don't intend to be a downer here and I don't regret becoming a gunsmith but if I remember right Lassen had something like a 70% attrition rate. It would be interesting to know how many of the 30% that graduate are still gunsmiths 5,10, 15 years later.

[marksman13]

Well damn, I guess I will be better off just taking odd jobs refinishing actions and stocks in the garage. I really planned on just starting off small and buying a few cheap guns to tinker with. Don't know that I will ever be a career gunsmith, but it would be nice to be able to customize a few of my own guns and a few of my friends guns if the occasion arises. Thanks for the advice and the reality check. You guys at THR are the best, Period. Anybody in Mississippi willing to teach eager student a few tricks of the trade,feel free to PM me.

[strambo]

but it would be nice to be able to customize a few of my own guns and a few of my friends guns if the occasion arises. Thanks for the advice and the reality check.If this is all you want, some DVD's, tinkerin' and maybe a weekend specialized course or two would be good. I looked into this awhile back, realized I didn't want to be a gunsmith bad enough to devote myself to it 100% which is required for any endeavor.

I thought dfaris' post was spot on and not pessimistic at all. His post wouldn't deter someone determined to be a gunsmith in any way. If it did....they don't have the determination. You could do a text replace function with the word "gunsmith" in his post and substitute any profession.

The key to success in any business...is business skills! I thought the 40% bust figure was quite generous as well. McD's makes a crappy burger...but they have a superior business model. You can be the most talented gunsmith in the world, if you suck at marketing and business, you will starve. You can be a mediocre smith and thrive if you are good at marketing, customer service and business skills. I don't believe you could suck at smithing and thrive as word of mouth would quickly kill you and no business skills would make up for it in the long run.

[marksman13]

I absolutely agree with the need for business skills. I believe I would end up falling into the category of a mediocre smith with good business skills. I am a "people person" by nature, and I really want to find a career that would allow me to work with guns and people. Thought about trying my hand as a gunsmith or sales rep for a firearm maunfacturer. May even open my own range because there is only one range that I know of for many, many miles around my home town. Whatever I do is going to have to wait until I finish my degree. Any other gun related jobs that I am forgetting about? Thanks for the honest answers guys.

[rmw]

Even doing it on a small scale if you are going to work on triggers,safeties or rebarrel anything I would consider liability insurance . You don't want to lose everything you have and will earn because of some stupid mistake that may not even be your fault . I know the chances are slim but I no longer do anything I can be sued for unless I know the person very well and even that is probably not very smart