[browningguy]

Not to be difficult, but:

Get over it.

Closed.

Is this the sort of fellowship we should expect for the future? I realize that this is volunteer work, so the idea of customer service is meaningless. But what about common courtesy, and treating your fellow humans with some barely adequate amount of respect? So someone starts a thread that's a repeat, or you just don't like it. Any chance that a moderators response might be a little more civil when they close the thread?

Also, do moderators ever respond to private messages? I sent one several weeks ago, not even the courtesy of a "mind your own business", no acknowledgement that I exist at all.

Now I realize that as a corporate officer and member of the Board of my employer, I probably am treated with a little more deference than I deserve at work. But I don't treat homeless people like this, and I don't think it sets a good example for the other board members. I realize that you have accepted a post with god-like powers, but if you can't be civil to people why not find another hobby where you don't have to associate with the peasants.

Rant off, may be banned now, but it was good to know you all if I am.

[Oleg Volk]

Could you let me know the specifics, by PM?

[ZeSpectre]

Just for the record, every interaction I've had with the moderators has been professional and high road, even when we've had a complete disagreement as to the subject at hand. Beleve me, I'd howl long and hard to Oleg if it were otherwise since I try hard to remain "high road" and expect the same of others (I'm a real pain in the backside that way :evil: )

[Larry Ashcraft]

My complete response:
I own a trophy shop in Colorado. I don't stock surfing trophies because they don't sell here.

WalMart is a business. Businesses are in the business of making money. The more profit per square foot and employee/hour, the better for them.

Get over it.

Closed.
If you're going to quote, don't do it out of context.
may be banned now, but it was good to know you all if I am.
Not hardly. But please don't take it so seriously.

As I said, I own a retail business. The products I carry and sell depend on local demand. Same with WalMart. They don't sell what we demand, they sell what they can make the most profit on, period. Sorry, but those are the facts of life in a capitalistic society.

[.38 Special]

I think the mods do a great job here and I really like the overall atmosphere. Having said that, this isn't the first time I've commented on the rude remarks that often come along with the closing of a thread. Mods have, essentially, God-like power over the posting content, which means they have to wield it carefully in order to avoid coming off as arrogant or worse. Especially in the context of "having the last word" in closing a thread... it's easy to create bad feelings in those situations. That's a shame considering how easy it is to let people off easy with a few patient words.

FWIW.:)

[MudPuppy]

Well, I think the mods and tone of this site are great.

I think sometimes things can come across wrong or rougher than intended because of the impersonal nature of the text only communication?

I don't think its a bad thing to be reminded of. I've worked with community sites on online games for a few years--its a rough job moderating a crowd of you hooligans! :neener:

[daysleeprx]

I have one "preferred" mod that I contact whenever I'm having an issue, and he's always been extremely prompt (and polite!) with his replies.

[browningguy]

Larry, I didn't quote out of context, I quoted exactly the part that I thought was rude and unnecessary. I'm ok with the first two lines, it's the third that didn't need to be in the post.

If a customer wants a surfing trophy in your shop do you tell them,
"I don't sell them, get over it"? I somehow don't think so. By the way, I'm VP Business Development and member of the Board of Directors of my employer, I've also taught junior and senior level International Business and Organizational Behaviour for the past 8 years at a large state university as an adjunct, so I hardly need advice on capitalism.

And for the record, I have PM'd two moderators about this recently to try to keep it private and off the board, with zero response from either. Not even the common courtesy to tell me to mind my own business.

[JCF]

The very few personal exchanges I have had with moderators have been exclusively positive. In perusing threads however, I will concur with browningguy that there are a few mods that could use a remedial in common courtesy.

[Art Eatman]

Speaking only for myself, I really dislike having to close any thread that stays on topic and the writing is reasonably polite and courteous. Generally, it's not necessary.

But fighting your way through several posts that are insulting or sarcastic or just dumber'n hammered dirt can create a serious case of fed-up-itis. Hard to go to the trouble of closing the door with no noise beyond a soft "click".

And this is not just one thread in L&Pee; it's but one of several. If folks would merely exercise a modicum of self-control, it would not at all be an issue.

:D, Art

[Outlaws]

Hey Art, have you ever considered deleting the offending post rather than closing someones thread? IMO that would be the best option. If two people are going at it, just delete their posts. They will get the picture.

[Justin]

Deleting posts is something that we do.

However, there's a serious rule of diminishing returns that comes into play. If it's one or two posts, no big deal. But if it's a significant part of a thread, it becomes tiresome.

Besides, we really shouldn't have to delete posts, anyway, as everyone who signed up on the board has agreed to abide by the code of conduct.

[Mal H]

Exactly what Justin said.

Outlaws and others reading this, you would be surprised how many posts do get deleted on a daily basis. You don't necessarily know it because ... well, they were deleted. ;)

However, at times the problem becomes unmanageable by just deletions and the thread is closed - perhaps out of frustration by the moderator(s) or as a necessity to restore a semblance of order to the board overall. Closing a thread is one tool we need to have in order to send a message of sorts. If the thread topic is worthwhile and valid for THR, we almost never get heartburn if someone restarts the topic in a new thread.

[innerpiece]

I am a moderator at 2 forums, and have served as admin/mod at a couple more.

sometimes a mod/admin does what they think is best for the community..
the integrity of mods is judged by the admin that places them in that position. some admin are a bit more detailed at screening potential mods, than others.

sometimes Mods make mistakes, sometimes admin make mistakes..
unfortunately, some mods/admin choose to not acknowledge their mistakes. Some do.

a couple things Ive learned as mod/admin:

-use caution when editing/deleting a persons opinion.
-edits/deletes should follow the guidelines of a given TOU (terms of use)
-personal agendas are not proper conduct of a mod.
- be equal, be fair, be civil.
-protect personal privacy of all members, as required.
-practice and promote integrity!
-if deletion, editin, or banning is a decided action, notification to the member and community is the right way to go!

people DONT like being edited! especially if they are confident of their position! I have always sent a PM to a member whos post need be edited, as to the reason for the action, and invited discussion.
banning with no explination prior to the action to the member in question, is just not right.. many folks will see their mistake, and correct it promptly if they are spoken to as a person.
Ive seen some mods, who just wave their powerstick because they can, with no explination regaurding their decision.. while it might make sence to THAT mod, it usually dosent to the onlookers.\

moderating, and admin-ing, is a difficult job at times, especially for mods who do their job correctly, and fairly.

as a member of a website, it should be our responsability to try and understand the position of the mods/admin, at the time of each of our posts.


Jus a nother imo/ime.

peace, ip.

[JShirley]

notification to the member and community is the right way to go

Well, that certainly sounds true, doesn't it? But in general, disciplinary measures- or even just coaching to an individual- is something we would not want to do in public. Sometimes a soft word in private is all that is required, but that same thing, said openly, might embarrass and antagonize. There's a fine line to be found, and as individuals, we all have slightly different styles.

Moderator fatigue plays a part in how some editing is dealt with. Should we really take the time to notify each member every time we remove an attempt to get around the "naughty word" filter? "Should" we really have to bother notifying folks we have removed something that shouldn't have been here in the first place? Do we "owe" them notification that we have removed the sexual act terminology that was used only for emphasis? Or, perhaps, is it really most important to chat directly to members who have devolved into personal attack? One is needless, while the other, left unchecked, will rapidly make this an inhospitable environment.

Our objective is an environment that is courteous, open-minded, embracing, conscientious, and thoughtful. This board is continually evolving, and each time any of you log on and post, you choose what this board will become.

John

[innerpiece]

I agree JShirley.

IME, it has never been a bad move tho, for a moderator, closing or editing a post/thread to state their reason for doing so..
its a simple step, and one that reinforces the reliability/integrity of a moderators course of action.

of course, somethings are quite obvious to the public asto why a Mod takes action. but some things are not.
saying that any form of notification for a mods action is 'needless', only builds acceptance of decisions based on what you call "moderator fatigue"..

thanks for the conversation. and keep up the good work.

ip.

[SoCalShooter]

Moderators here are top shelf. Have never had a bad interaction or heard of bad interactions with them.

[CDignition]

Heres a rather rude reply, and closing... Art is always good for a laugh.. This isn't High Road if you ask me...:rolleyes:


Dead horse.

Art

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=3135653#post3135653

[Brian Williams]

not rude just the facts, bare bones facts, but just the facts.

[innerpiece]

CD, mabey yer right.

or perhaps, its a topic thar Art has seen beaten to death allready on the forums.. as the origin of the topic in that thread was from 2002..

however, this is just one more reason I think a bit of clairification never hurts when a mod takes action.

btw, frommy observation, Ive only noticed what I precieve as innapropriate action by 2 mods, Art is not one of them!

peace, ip.

[Heavy Metal Hero]

Do you suggest a coup d’état? Oui?

[CDignition]

Nahh,.. it is rude..Ill bet he wouldn't talk like that in person...All his are that way. 70% of locked threads are his and they all end the same way.

Also, how many guys weren't here in 2002?? I wasn't...this was all new to me..so not its dead and we cant talk about it..it is very on topic...so much for really fighting to keep arms..

[Larry Ashcraft]

Ill bet he wouldn't talk like that in person
Yes, as a matter of fact, I think he would. (And, yes, I've talked to Art in person.)

Art doesn't waste a lot of breath 'splainin stuff that should be obvious.

[innerpiece]

I understand yer position CD. to each our own, we all observe things differently..

But I do think saying things like "so much for really fighting to keep arms" is quite irrelevant to the threads topic, nor could be reflected as one mods power on this BIG website.

I do completely understand yer frustration if you feel the thread was closed outside of reason, perhaps if Art would have provided a bit more of a reason, you might view it differently.

peace, ip.

[innerpiece]

right on Larry, Im not agreeing or disagreeing, Ill just say that most Mods have been familiar with these topics for MANY yrs here.. to newer members, some things arent so obvious..

never hurts to "waste a lil breath" to set a positive and clear example...

just imo/ime..

peace, ip.

[g5reality]

Part of waht makes this site so good is the attention moderators have to keeping discussion ON TRACK.

Threads are closed for a GOOD reason, Posts are deleted for GOOD reasons.

Keep up the good work. There is a reason it is called The High Road.

"Doing the right thing when you know you can do the wrong thing and get away with it."

Thanks again for those who dedicate their time, your actions and participation are greatly appreciated.:)

[pax]

70% of locked threads are his ...

Yep. That's the nature of the L&P beast, and Art is very good at keeping track of that monster. L&P is the worst forum on THR to moderate, because people get so emotional about their politics. (Heh. Always cracks me up to hear gun-people claim that non-gun-people are the emotional ones. Couldn't prove it by posts I see on THR!)

innerpiece ~

Pretty sure you've done this type of math before, based on your posts above. But for those who haven't ...

Current stats for THR: we have 238,235 threads; 3,098,667 posts; 43,684 total members and 10,685 active members.

Multiply the number of threads on THR times 5 minutes per thread, divide by the number of moderators.

Or multiply the numbers of posts on THR times 1.5 minutes per post, divide by the number of moderators. Get real scientific about it and figure out the number of days since we started (Dec 24, 2002) and throw that number into the mix somewhere to get your minutes-per-day-per-moderator figure. Remind yourself that every single member of the all volunteer staff has an offline life as well as an online one, with family members who need human attention and (often) a real life job too, including a boss who may not allow internet access during the working day. Remember that we've got several staff members on sabbatical or otherwise unavailable for doing the dirty work at any given time, so the actual minutes of mod time will be a bit higher for active moderators than the raw numbers will suggest.

Remember these numbers any time you are tempted to suggest something that involves "just another couple minutes" of moderator time.

pax

[Biker]

Ol' Art never passes up a chance to close an immigration thread that I participate in (seems that way, anyhoozles;) ), but it's his show and dat's da way it be.
Technically, he's usually right - it is OT.
I don't take it personally. Fact is, I wouldn't mind drinkin' a shot o' Beam with the grouchy old SOB someday.
I have a great deal of respect for all the mods on this board.
Thanks, Ladies and Gents.

Biker:)

[innerpiece]

right on Pax, I completely understand!

thanks for yer time in posting that up, hopefully it will shed a lil light!


peace, ip.

[HeedJSU]

I haven't been here too long, but the one interaction I've had with a mod was professional and courteous. I received a PM explaining what was happening any why, and there was no unprofessionalism or power trip involved.

These guys have to sort through a lot of S*** that I find pretty boring.

Hats off to you, gentlemen. My next toast floats your general direction.

Justin

[sm]

Yeah what pax said.

Sure happy pax did not toss out the Quadratic Formula or do an Access dealie for us to figure all that out with.
:)

[BobCav]

First impressions of THR? Not favorable and certainly not keeping with it's name. Arrogant, high handed and paternalized are a few words I would use to describe it. I'm on a few car forums, and not teenager ricer garbage, but large family type forums (Chrysler 300C) where we routinely contribute cash, time and lots of love to help one another out and our charity has made the news (http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=30489). There we are literally family brought together through our love of our cars. How much more I expected to find here considering how much more important the topic is. And how greater my disappointment.

I'm no young kid, but I am a rebel and a budding RKBA activist, not just a gun lover, hunter, target shooter or the such. I'm a 42 year disillusioned Navy retiree with 4 kids, 4 grandkids and I'm no kid myself. That said, this seems to me an overly and inconsistently moderated board and for a forum that deals with perhaps the most passionate topic of our time, freedom and the RKBA, it seems to be one of the coldest and most inconsistent places I've ever been. If there is a large amount of threads being closed as being OT, then perhaps that is the direction the users need to move in for that moment and it wouldn't hurt anyone to open a forum area for Off Topic threads as a place to share info, vent about something non-gun related, whatever. Better they come here than go somewhere else to post those topics, huh? Hell, I had a post completely deleted merely for using "LMFAO" and if that is honestly the policy of this forum, please summarily delete my membership effective immediately. If that is truly the way it is here, I honestly won't miss it at all.

It just doesn't feel like visiting a friend, you know? That's what forums should feel like. Granted there's a wealth of information here, but it just seems a bit too big for it's own good and seems to have lost touch with the grass-roots passion and love of the RKBA that is central to all we do. Like the difference between VCDL and the NRA.

Nuff said. Thanks for listening to me vent.

[pax]

BobCav ~

Link to specific examples, please.

What you just posted was probably cathartic for you, but isn't really helpful to us to figure out what we're doing wrong or could improve.

Thanks.

pax

[BobCav]

Pax, it was cathartic, but that wasn't the intent.

Most of it is just a feeling I have about the place in general. I was told once by an old vet "People will forget what you say and they will forget what you do, but they will remember how you made them feel." That is something we should all strive to do better, THR included.

I've seen many threads closed in the short time I've been here. I had a post deleted, as I said before for using "LMFAO" with no PM or explanation, nothing. I actually attribute that to a generational difference, but it was nothing wrong and I will not be "scolded" like a child because of someone's generational and moral differences.

One thread about www.gatheringofeagles.com (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=260820) was deleted because it had nothing to do with RKBA or guns. It was about vets defending our monuments in DC from protesters who have stated they will desecrate then with graffiti. A passionate topic about people defending what they believe in and what better place to advertise an event like that than amongst a bunch of veterans, gun rights activists, enthusiasts and supporters, hobbyists, passionate Americans all. Had there been an "off-topic" or "activist" area, the post could have been easily moved there and allowed to continue.

It's very easy for meaningful and legitimate posts go unnoticed because of the sheer volume of posts every day. It feels like there is just too many people crammed into such a small place. If making an area for each state is too much, perhaps just Regional areas such as (Northeast Region - ME, VT, NH, CT, RI, MA; MidAtlantic Region - NY, PA, NJ, DE, WV, VA, MD) and so on, where folks with at least geographic commonality can get together to discuss local/regional topics of interest such as local RKBA meetings and activism events, gun shows and get togethers. Use one of my car forums as an example http://www.lxforums.com/board/index.php?

Just some thoughts and ideas that I feel could make this place better, more organized and friendlier. Hope that helps.

Bob

[pax]

Bob ~

For local and regional get-togethers, we have the Rallying Point (up towards the top of the forum list).

Can't do much about the "crowded" feel to THR -- it is a big site and there are a lot of members here. Splitting into dozens upon dozens of sub-forums is the usual online solution to that problem, but then we would have more clutter for people to wade through, and it probably would not help your perception of inconsistency one little bit.

My own two favorite quieter firearms fora are www.thearmedcitizen.net and www.packing4life.com. THR's parent site, www.thefiringline.com, is about three-fourths the size of THR but is a little quieter these days than THR is. Plenty of info you can mine out of the archives there, too.

Hope that helps a little.

pax

[Derek Zeanah]

Arrogant, high handed and paternalized are a few words I would use to describe it.Well, you're welcome to feel this way, but I don't think it's terribly justified.

Your complaint is about an abbreviation for "laughing my f*cking @ss off" right? Is it unreasonable to think that there might be some here that are offended by that language? Do you think there's the possibility that open-minded non-gunnies who visit here looking for answers might see those sorts of comments thrown about as something that indicates this forum isn't for them?

Note that I'm no prude (ask anyone who's met me in person), but I understand the issue and don't argue to turn off the language filters. One of our primary missions is to provide a place for undecideds to show up and ask questions. Maintaining the right feel is part of how we do this so well.

There's also the point that follow-up posts that say nothing more than "lol" or "+1" don't contribute much to the discussion, and believe it or not this was the reason we removed the "quote" button, as most uses were simply to quote an entire post and add less than a line of commentary to follow.

Don't feel like you were "talked down to" -- that happens too, and you'll know when it happens. ;)

There we are literally family brought together through our love of our cars. How much more I expected to find here considering how much more important the topic is. And how greater my disappointment.We've got 45,000 members, over 3 million posts, and 10,000 members who regularly participate (over 3,000 new posts per day on average, IIRC). It's hard to make a forum this large feel intimate, though I understand the appeal of small gatherings of folks who share a common interest.

Past experience has shown, many times, that we've got a recipe here that makes the forum work. Tightening up on our moderation makes the board a bit too strict, and loosening up much (we've tried multiple times) tends toward chaos, and we run into situations where users fight more frequently and we need to ban more folks for their behavior.

We try to be consistent, but with as many moderators as we have it's difficult sometimes.

It was about vets defending our monuments in DC from protesters who have stated they will desecrate then with graffiti. A passionate topic about people defending what they believe in and what better place to advertise an event like that than amongst a bunch of veterans, gun rights activists, enthusiasts and supporters, hobbyists, passionate Americans all. Had there been an "off-topic" or "activist" area, the post could have been easily moved there and allowed to continue.Instead of having an off-topic area, we have an off-topic forum: www.armedpolitesociety.com. It works better than trying to say "board rules are enforced everywhere but here" (again, this is from past experience.)

[JShirley]

Bob,

Color me confused. Even more so than normal, perhaps.

On the one hand, you state that lots of threads are closed as off-topic.
On the other hand, you state It's very easy for meaningful and legitimate posts go unnoticed because of the sheer volume of posts every day.

So...is the net effect of your suggestions to cancel each other out, leaving nothing but a complaint? :confused: Or, are you just trying to illustrate why moderating a large board actually takes effort?

John

[meef]

I respectfully suggest that all of the folks who are offended by the high-handed tactics, trespasses and approaches they feel the moderators are guilty of should ask for a full refund of all of their membership dues and take their business elsewhere.......

:cool:

[NailGun]

....hmmmm.

[sm]

Well the truth is, THR should run itself and not need for Moderators & Staff to come out to this side of the monitor except to interact, have fun, contribute and learn as well.

Board should run itself - with the Mods and Staff behind the monitor doing administrative stuff with Software, and Servers and such.

We should be self policing. We should be mentoring to the new folks. New folks should be reading and doing searches - cyclic if you will.
Many topics have been discussed, some great information in archives. Then again, some folks once new, now more seasoned should be stepping up and assisting new folks on how THR conducts itself.
Perpetual if you will.

One can even mine the archives and learn how hot topics were handled and apply same to new hot topics.

I dunno, I figure Mods and Staff have a life outside of this forum, are only human like I am. Don't matter what gender, what age Mods & Staff are, I figure I am pretty much like them - or they me in daily activities of living.

Granted training these Mods & Staff still takes some doing. I recall back in the old days and we only had one firearms room.

Correia kept sticking Saigas next to Wood & Blue Shotguns, and pax kept sticking pink lace shooting bags next to leather shell pouches.
Art was handy, pretty resourceful for a old fart and he made some more gun racks.

Don't them wood and blue shotguns look right nice all in a spot of their own?
Yep, them over there are all 28 gauges.

I am not supposed to know Stephen Camp has been handling a 28 ga shotgun, that is okay, his secret is safe with me...;)

Derek, he will fool you, he does look great in wood and blue lever guns...
(he probably didn't think I knew about that either).

Now if I can just get JShirley trained to quit using up all the printer paper checking to see if his knives are sharp.
Heck, between him and hso, we are doing good to have printer paper when we need it.
[hso is into paper airplanes and making spit wads for his blow gun].

Gotta run, got some PMs from Mods and Staff, - I wonder what they need training on this time...

The things I do around here - I swear!

:)

You are welcome
:D

Steve

[waynedm]

People seem to be more respectful of others' opinions on this forum than other forums I have been on. I was banned from thefiringline.com for standing up for myself when others would attack with nonsense. The people on this forum are much more respectful than what I was used to. The reason? I don't know.

[RealGun]

Why does a dumb, crude, out of control, or off topic thread need an elegant, verbose, politically correct comment as it gets closed? I figure there will always be complaints about thread closings, because youth and the independence of those who want to defend themselves foster a resistance to authority and its exercise.

It just seems incongruous to want to let a thread run out of control and then be temperamental about how the thread gets closed. Be more concerned about why threads need closing.

[Art Eatman]

RealGun, it's obviously a vain hope that if it is explained as to why a thread is being closed, people will learn from it and not repeat the errors of their ways.

One can but hope, and hope, and hope--but the errors are eternal.

:D, Art

[skeeter1]

My biggest gripe is that The High Road and The Firing Line share so many of the same moderators and the same sysop. That's like having two newspapers in town with the same editors. What's the point?

[hso]

There is a significant problem that moderators have. We see the same posts repeated over and over. Good and bad. I understand that not all our members do, but because we volunteer for cleanup duty on the "river" we see the same thing float past over and over. If it were the first or third time, like it is for most members, we'd think it was cool and interesting also. And we do when it's a little different, or a lot. But when it's the same it begins to all turn grey. A member sees a post for the first time and yells out, "Hey, cool! What's that?!", and we look and squint and we see... nothing. Just another ??? Now think if you saw garbage floating down the river. The banks are posted. The folks who throw the garbage in the river had to sign in at the gate to get in and they signed an agreement to not throw garbage on the river, but there it is anyway. And here you are an unpaid volunteer just trying to keep things nice for the kids and families and everyone, explaning about where the bathhouses are and what details of the river and the environs are and some yahoo drops his personal "Baby Ruth" mark in the river. It can cause you to be a bit grumpy at times. Now add to the fact that unpaid volunteers come in all sorts of personalities and sometimes "grumpy" comes more often from some than others. But please remember that every member here can help those unpaid volunteers by looking out for others as well and take a little pressure off of us so we're more able to cope with the load.

Mod burnout? Sure.

[RealGun]

My biggest gripe is that The High Road and The Firing Line share so many of the same moderators and the same sysop.

So what does that mean? Does it mean you can't find a place to be off topic or uncivil, a place to depart from discussing topical ideas rather than attack personalities, a place you are allowed to wander off into the weeds and distract from the topic of the thread, a place you can post inappropriate thread topics and titles?

If you mean a place where you will not confront authority or be corrected, you might need to find another venue. Internet forums clearly require moderating. Stuff happens, and someone focused on the grander vision needs to have the assignment of dealing with the distraction factor on behalf of the reasons why someone would have subscribed. If one subscribes to a gun forum, it is a fair assumption that the person would be interested in perusing topics related directly to guns, possibly put off by the clutter of anything else. There is also the issue of what the site wants to sponsor and represent. "The High Road", for example, is likely to foster a reflection of exceptional behavior and style, a little class.

Discussing anything and everything among your "buddies", those of similar sentiment re guns and that general ilk, is actually supported via APS.

[Derek Zeanah]

My biggest gripe is that The High Road and The Firing Line share...the same sysop.You're not referring to me, then? I've been a member over on TFL for a long time, but rarely show up, and never have had anything to do with how it's run.

[Correia]

My biggest gripe is that The High Road and The Firing Line share so many of the same moderators and the same sysop. That's like having two newspapers in town with the same editors. What's the point?

Actually you would be surprised. There is not really that much overlap anymore.

The reason that many are the same is because they were mods on TFL when it closed, and Oleg drafted them for here. But when he did that, a whole bunch of new people were drafted also.

Then TFL started back up. Then over time, many of the original mods just lacked the time and now spend most of their online time on one forum or the other.

Then both forums added new mods as the need arose.

There is really only a handful now that are active modding both forums, and honestly, I don't know how they do it.

[BobCav]

I fully understand the frustration the mods have, it can be a time intensive and thankless job and there are ways to eliminate much of that! Here's a problem as an example; You have a very great and informative board with LOADS of useful info and great people. That makes more and more people want to come here, but once here they find themselves with no guide or direction and overwhelmed by all the info. Kind of like someone from the country going into New York City for the first time. I grew up just outside NYC in the PDRNJ (People's Demokratik Republik of New Jersey) so for me, it's nothing to head into Manhattan. But for other's it can be intimidating and downright scary.

And not everyone is as computer literate as some of us are and not knowing where to go or find info can be very intimidating for new computer users and new forum members as well. (like a new driver in NYC!) That is especially so for older folks that have little to no computer experience and yes there are still plenty of those out there. (slow driver in the fast lane on the Long Island Expressway!)

Case in point: The portal - http://www.thehighroad.org/index.php
Take a look at that page in an of itself and you tell me from that alone where a NEWBIE can find the info they need? The little line "Meet fellow forum members" under General Gun Discussions is the only hint. How about placing the NEWBIE check in thread, or whatever you want to call it, on the first page for all to see, with all the forum rules stickied at the top of that thread? Logical, easy to find, convenient makes new users feel welcome.

Off-Topic areas do work, as long as they're moderated, rules are enforced and kept in good taste. They keep people coming here, if for nothing else. Is THR so big that it can take that big corporate "if you don't like it here then go somewhere else" mentality? Business models have already proven that doesn't work and though you get a lot of "new customers", you get very little repeat business aka "loyal customers", aka "active members". 25% loyal customers is nice, but 50% is better! 25% means that 75% have tried it and didn't like it and would rather go somewhere else for their needs and they will tell that to anyone that asks. Word of mouth is the best (or worst) advertising! I may be a Life Member of the NRA, but I go to local VCDL meetings because those people are also my friends and that's where they know my name and I feel welcome. (Besides, VCDL gets more done!)

Granted there may be other forums affiliated with THR, but that just passes the inconvenience to the user that now needs to register on another forum and post over there. Again, not a very customer oriented business model. To be honest, I had no idea about APS or any other affiliated forums until last night. If I have a topic that is non-gun related, patriotic and and not in bad taste, what better place to share that info than with fellow patriots? Supermarkets don't sell or rent houses, but you certainly grab Apartment and Home guides just inside the front door, don't you? When I shop for groceries, it's a whole lot easier to go to one store than to the butcher, the baker, the candy shop, the vegetable and fruit stand, etc. They now rent videos, have florists, pharmacies, and a whole number of conveniences all designed to keep you in their store, spending your money with them. No, they don't have the selection of Blockbuster or CVS, but they'll likely have that item or two that you need right then and there.

Just some thoughts on how things could be better. Things can always be better.

[Correia]

Off-Topic areas do work, as long as they're moderated, rules are enforced and kept in good taste.

Been there, done that. And I was one of the guys that moderated it.

It didn't work. It tanked miserably. And I personally, and the other guys that volunteered to work it, tried really really hard to keep it afloat, because we loved the idea.

But in the end, the OT stuff in there, and the arguments, and disagreements, and general trivial stupid crap, spilled out of The Round Table, and onto the rest of the board. And in the end, we were fighting to keep something open, that the majority of the staff didn't think benefit the board, or help to further our mission.

"if you don't like it here then go somewhere else" mentality? Here is the problem with that analogy. Every single day, we have some poster here trying to turn THR into something else, or trying to mold THR to be more like some other board on the internet. The problem is, we aren't them. We aren't Glocktalk, ARfcom, FAl Files, Gunsnet, or anybody else. And that is cool. Every forum is different.

So really, if somebody is miserable here, and doesn't like the way that THR is, then really, why be miserable? All of those other boards are great communities also, with their own culture. If you really fit in better at one of them, go there, and have fun.

At the end of the day, we can't make everybody happy. One side wants everything even tighter, and more moderated, and more draconian, and the other side has no problem with OT to the point that we have Babe of The Day threads, and can say anything that you want.

Basically, no matter which direction we take it in, we're going to piss off 10% of the members. It has been that way since day one, and I'm sure it will be that way for eternity.

[Brian Williams]

If you think that off-topic areas work go to Glocktalk or ARF.com and read for a while, sometime it makes you want to wash out your eyes with soap from some of the language and (non)thought.

[sm]

I am just a dumb Southern Boy taught not to meddle. In like principal I do not like being meddled with, and this extends to folks being meddled with whom I choose to call my friends.

Heads up - Some are meddling with me and my kind. Therefore one more time...tm

It is not the Forum, It is not the genre' of the Forum, It is not the Staff, It is not the Moderators, It is not the number of sub-forums, It is not any of these things or other things.

Here is a clue: One cannot change people , places or things. The only damn thing they can change it THEMSELVES.

People can only change themselves in matters such as:
-TTPO (think twice-post once)
-HALT (hungry, angry, lonely and tired)
-KWI (keyboard while under influence)

I am going to type in bold, italics, underlined in red - what makes a forum work.

People

It is the quality of a person contributing in a polite civil manner, using common sense, interacting with other members where the quality of a member's participation is just that damn obvious.

You don't like THR, TFL - fine. Do me one favor before you touch your keyboard.
Look in the mirror, cold sober, not hungry, angry, lonely and tired. Look yourself in the eyeball and be brutally honest with yourself - Are you part of the Problem, or part of the Solution?

I do not want to know, none of my business. Whatever you come up with, is yours and you own it - not me, not anyone else.

If you leave THR, TFL - that is your right, and your choice. If you choose to Start a new website - fine, go for it.
Many members of THR, TFL and sisters sites have "taken the challenge to continue raising the bar", and started other forums, websites, blogs ...etc.

Just remember - it is the People that makes a difference on how all these Mediums using IT actually run, and are successful.


Steve

[sm]

Faults, and character defects?
I have more than you do!

Preacherman does not have a Confessional big enough nor he the time to hear all my disgressions, and I am not even Catholic!

They do not make a warehouse big enough to contain all the skeletons I have, forget "closet" - none are big enough!

I do know about taking a "personal inventory" and War and Peace was smaller and easier to read than what I wrote down, and all the sequels.

Staff and Moderating - yes I know about this as well. Some had to do with Firearms, others were Long Distance Learning Tools, others were Business related.
I have turned down requests to be on Staff and be a Moderator.
I am an older returning student. I know about having to do my studies, some are strictly online, and the server needs maintaining, goes down and I am affected just as the Faculty, Staff, Instructors and Students of a College - and I am one of the ones being cussed, fussed and yelled at because the WebCt, Blackboard, or Moodle is down.
My "case study" is also lost in cyber-space.
I know about having to Moderate , with College Studies of my own and 3 people close to me die in 4 days. Real darn difficult to handle everything, sleep depraved, and I really did not want to read "I cannot get my class to pull up so I can take an online exam".
Still I did, and got it figured out.

Thankless, tiring, and anything else one can think of being on the other side of a monitor.

I was just raised to look at situations from other perspectives than my own.
The other person(s) and the third party "over on the street corner" observing something that is none of their business, no concern of theirs, that just happens to be "there" and "observing".


s