[Sean Smith]

As a long-time 10mm shooter waiting on my 2nd custom 10mm, I decided to gather all the stuff smarter people than me came up with concerning what goes into a 10mm 1911 and collect it on one web page. It is a work-in-progress, so let me know what you think... :D

http://www.geocities.com/mr_motorhead/10tech.html

[George Hill]

Not bad... the trigger frame pics could use better lighting.
Ditch Geocities as a host.

Good info. Thanks.

[Sean Smith]

Yeah, the pics kind of stink. Geocities is pretty lame, but I've got so much crap there that I don't want to think about moving it, and at least it doesn't have huge popups or anything really annoying.

[Handy]

Good read.

Perhaps you could also explore long slides as a solution to the slide mass/battering problem.

[George Hill]

And some ballistic comparos between the different 10MM loads out of different sized 10MM guns... from compacts through longslides.

Hmmm... sounds like a lot of work. :D I reason to do more shooting and buy more guns!:D :D

[Sean Smith]

Handy,

Actually, I've thought about that. You could easily convert an STI Trojan 6.0 longslide from .40 S&W to 10mm. Use a buffer and dial the recoil spring weight down to 16-18 pounds. Thing would probably last forever and a day, and 10mm ballistics really pick up with extra barrel length. Don Williams commented that a 6"+ 10mm longslide would be a very cool setup, but you never see the things for some reason... even though a 10mm longslide makes alot more sense than a .45 ACP longslide.

Ony problem with it over a 5" gun would be hiding it in your pants. :D

EDITED TO ADD: I think STI will do it for you for $200.

[BigG]

Thanks, Sean, for sharing your research on one of the greatest guns of modern times. BTW, the frame window mod has been done to all Colts pretty much. You have to get a fairly old one where the rail covers the top of the slide stop window. They cracked out on 45 ACP also. But guess what? They just kept on ticking so Colt realized they could leave it out. :cool:

[garrettwc]

Good info Sean. Very informative for those of us who are 10MM centric.

I remember reading an article or seeing a thread somewhere about using a 6" barrel. The gun was a Glock 20 and they got a Jarvis 6" barrel for it and just dropped it in. It stuck out from the slide an inch or so, but funtioned and shot fine.

[Will Fennell]

Sean,
After having custom 1911 10mm's with both ramped and un ramped barrels[Ed Brown Maxi-Comp w/unramped BARSTO, and Jack Green Limited 5" gun with BRILEY ramped], I prefer the ramped barrel. If for no other reason that the brass fired[from heavy loads] in the ramped barrels will reload better. Brass from heavy loads fired in unramped barrels will sometimes, or overtime, develope a bulge near the base, which can make resizing difficult and shorten brass life.

My current, and recently finished, 10mm "dream gun" features some of the design features you have mentioned.......

It has a ramped, cone barrel....a EGW firing pin stop, slightly heavier hammer spring[usually use a reduced power in my .45's, the 10mm runs a 21 lb'er].... a 20 lb conventional rate recoil spring and a buff......metalform 8 rounders with Wolf XP springs.

Honestly I can't remember what extractor the 'smith used.....he told me it was a good machined one, and I took his word for it. I have run MANY thousands of 10mm rounds through my pistols in the past, and not experienced undue extractor problems from properly fitted guns. I saw no need to use the AFTEC extractor. I'll let you know if I have any issues with the one in the gun[I had 2 fitted for it when the gun was "built"].

The gun ran fine on Silvertips and Georgia Arms ammo, but to get it to run reliably on my hunting ammo[180 grn XTP's @ 1300 fps] I had to upgrade the mag springs to the Wolf XP's. It has run 750 rounds of the "hot stuff" without a hitch since then.

If you are as happy with your 10mm project as I am with mine, you aer gonna have a great time.

Remember, happiness is a good 10mm, 500 rounds of full power loads, and a plate rack @ 100 yards:cool:

[stans]

A compensator could also slow cycling time as well as reducing muzzle jump. It might not make a friend out of whoever is standing next to you at the range, but I think it would extend the life of a 10mm. I see Storm Lake still lists both gunsmith fit and drop in 10mm comp kits.

[Tamara]

This is obviously just a conspiracy to get me to dump a wad of cash on a 10mm 1911. :scrutiny:

[Sean Smith]

AFTECs... some 'smiths recommend them, some don't. Many of those that do spend more time working on guns in higher-pressure cartridges and got sick of other extractors busting. I remember a conversation on another forum that went something like this:

Poster A: You don't need an AFTEC, just use brand X.

Poster B: I had a brand X in my 10mm, it busted.

Totally unscientific, but still... :D

On to ramped vs. unramped...

1. Guys that didn't shoot their hot .38 Super out of ramped barrels got ".38 Super face."

2. Guys that didn't shoot their hot 10mm loads out of ramped barrels got... shorter brass life.

My 10mm is getting a ramped barrel too, but there is a big difference between #1 and #2. :cool:

And aside from being really loud and impractical, compensators work great.

[Carnitas]

Good stuff but Tamara got it right.

Just about the time I'd decided to start looking for a 610, everywhere I look I'm seeing 10mm 1911's. Arghhhh!

[Grayrider]

Sean,

Saw your 10mm site yesteday from your post on the DW section at the 1911 Forums. Thanks for the good work! A lot of info there to keep in mind on future projects. One of these days I am going to roll some cash together and have my smith build me a 10/40 combo gun on an STI frame. I will have to keep tabs on your site for good advice.

GR

[AndABeer]

While I would not call my Kimber 10mm or my new Razorback failures, they have been problematic so far. Enough that I question the viability of the 10mm in the 1911 design especially when compares to other designs which seem to do better. I am a huge fan of 10mm and am fairly fond of 1911s. I would love to see the two work together as well as my other 10s. Especially when you consider that I have a box of parts waiting to be assembled that promises to be a gorgeous damascus slided 10mm.

I have bookmarked your page and will study it with great interest to see if I can improve the reliablity of my current 10mm 1911s before moving forward with the "box of parts".

[Sean Smith]

I'd question the validity of your factory guns. ;)

The fixes to make your gun run right should be cheap, but nobody uses them as a matter of course. That EGW firing pin stop can make a big difference, and is like $15. Wolff springs in the proper weight range and a baggie full of buffers is cheap. The best magazines are probalby the cheapest ones out there (Metalform 8-rounders), and even if you buy some uber mag springs for them, they are still cheap compared to the $30-40 premium mags some people throw in their .45's. If you factory 10mm guns are just crappy factory guns, they'll just need fixing like a factory .45.

The obvious response to people who say a 1911 can't be a good 10mm platform is "WHY?", a question that you won't hear many cogent answers to. Because they don't exist. It would be reasonably accurate to say that you can't get an optimal 10mm platform just by re-chambering a 1911 in 10mm and leaving everything else alone. Which ought to be obvious, but apparently wasn't judging by some of the 10mm 1911s that have been produced. What people ought to be pleasantly surprised at is that it can cost you as little as $50 to adapt a 90+ year-old-design to a cartridge that generates 50-100% more chamber pressure than the original. :eek:

[BigG]

Sean, I think you put your finger on the problem when you said the 10mm showed signs of bulging when hotrodded to the same point that Super 38 showed case disintegration! ;) In other words, people tend to want a free lunch, load that sucker up with a heaping teaspoonful of whatever brew will produce the highest velocity. If you want a 44 Magnum or 454 Casull, the Ten-Em-Em platform is not the place to look for it.

Ramped bbls and such are bandaid fixes for the problem that create other problems themselves. I love my 10mm Delta GC and it works fine with factory. I really don't reload it but leave the brass, just like I do my .40 stuff. You can buy empty cases if you want to brew up some special loads. GA Arms has some stout deerstoppers for those who want sompin a little extra. Screw economy, anyway! :p

[Sean Smith]

"Hot" is relative... for some people, Cor-Bon hunting ammo (up to 700+ ft-lbs from a 5" barrel) is hot, and that stuff worked fine in the unramped Delta I used to have. Some people running ramped barrels and using magnum primers are going over 800 ft-lbs with heavy bullets and lots of 800-X without any pressure issues. That isn't hot, that's maniacal... :evil:

[45auto]

Nice write up.

There is a manufacturer of guide rods, can't remember his name, that has buffers on both sides of the guide. Seems like a good idea to eliminate metal on metal contact on both sides, particulary for hot loads and lighter springs.

[Sean Smith]

Cominolli makes those. My only concern about those would be that you are taking up almost twice as much space with buffers as if you were using just a normal buff on a conventional guide rod. At that point you'd probalby need to start clipping off spring coils to compensate... and from the pics on the site it still looks like you have metal-on-metal contact between the rod and the frame.

[Grayrider]

Sean,

The various aspects of making a 10mm 1911 run well might merit their own sub-forum at 1911forums. I was thinking a 10mm section over there might be nice. Perhaps you could moderate? Dunno if they would want to make a caliber specific section, but I don't see why not. Most of us 10mm guys there seem to be hanging around the DW section discussing our Razorbacks.

GR

PS: I like this idea so much I went ahead and posted the suggestion at 1911forum.

[Sean Smith]

I'm already the moderator of the 10mm section of Pistolsmith.com, so I dunno if I need another hat. :D

[Handy]

Perhaps a forum just dealing with all heavy recoiling, high pressure 1911s? .45Super, .40Super, 10mm, etc.

Seems like they all face the same challenges.


But of course the 10mm caliber would steal the show (more of 'em).



You know, I passed on a Springfield Omega for $500 last year.













stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid...

[Grayrider]

Well a moderator over there rejected that quite promptly. Not the friendliest fellows running that site in my experience. I will have to register at Pistolsmith. I also like that idea of a forum dealing with the hotter 1911 fodder, but the reaction I got was "no caliber forums are needed". Read into that "45 is best so why would you want to talk about anything else?"

GR

[BigG]

Can't believe that Tamara doesn't yet have a 10mm Auto. :eek:

[Chuck Perry]

I am using the Cominoli dual buffer guide rod in my 10mm. Works great! I may have to go a heavier recoil spring. I am using the Wolff 20# variable that everyone recommends, but my brass is being ejected 10 feet away.

[Sean Smith]

Who cares how far your brass is ejected?

[New_comer]

I remember Tamara has a Glock 29...

Or has she dumped that already?

[Chuck Perry]

I thought that conventioanl wisdom was that if brass was ejected over 6 feet away that your pistol was undersprung? I reload and collect my brass to do so. It's kind of a pain to spend 1/2 hour hunting brass all over the range to do so. It's also not very considerate to hit shooters 10-15 feet behind me with brass. But that's just me, I guess.

[Sean Smith]

I'd say that brass ejection distance doesn't mean jack squat if everything else is working. Frankly, alot of conventional wisdom is B.S.

Most 10mms throw brass pretty darn far. An EGW firing pin stop would probably be a better idea than a heavier recoil spring if you want to slow down your slide velocity a bit.

[Chuck Perry]

My 1066 never threw brass like this 1911 does. Different strokes, I 'spose. I am going to try the heavier spring and see how things go. The only down side I can see to a heavier spring would be reverse slide/frame battering, but the Cominnoli double buff should take care of that.
This 1911 I am talking about is a SA 40 I had converted to 10mm. I used the following parts: Ed Brown oversize firing pin stop, Ed Brown Hardcore slide stop, AFTEC extractor, Ed Brown oversized ejector, Wolff 20# variable recoil spring, Cominolli Frame Saver FLGR with double buffer setup. Factory barrel was reamed to 10mm, also added MMC adjustable night sights and a set of McCormick checkered slim grips. I had it out for the first time yesterday and WHAT A BLAST!!! I got rid of my 1066 a few years ago and forgot how much fun a 10mm is. I was also shooting a 5" 1911 in 45 in between the 10mm, there is just no comparison. The 10mm reminds me of the Coonan 357 I also foolishly sold. Whacking 2 liter soda bottles a 50 yards with a semi is awesome.

[AndABeer]

Just back from the range after a number of minor modifications to my Razorback:

My laundry list:
1. Recoil spring from 20# variable to 18# variable (recoil and reliablitly aid)
2. EGW firing pin stop (recoil aid)
3. Mainspring to 25# from unknown but most likely an increase over factory as standard 1911 is 23# (recoil aid at expense of trigger pull)
4. One piece guide rod replaced two piece (doesn't not come apart as two piece does)
5. AFTEC extractor (aid to reliablity and torn brass)
6. Hogue rubber fingergroove grip (looks as bad as as the factory grips but slightly more comfy, I'm looking for some nice woods)
7. Blackened front sight (hate the huge white dot)

Range experience:

50 rounds of gamer load: The pistol immediately felt different in recoil. It seemed there was a greater inital shove back but overall I'd have to say the recoil and muzzle flip felt lessened. Though the general lack of recoil of the load made it difficult to judge. The trigger was slightly heavier (approx 5# now) from the heavier mainspring but it breaks like a glass rod. It still wants to throw the first round of the mag high and left. No jams. No torn up brass. But this was the case previously with the pistol with this load.

100 rounds of Longshot load (170@1300): I shot my 1026 side by side with it. The recoil was noticably less than my previous outing with the pistol. It felt remarkably similar to the 1026 now. In fact it may have even been less. Hard to really say though as the grips are so different. Reliability was 100% now and no torn up cases.

100 rounds of 2400 load: Again, recoil was noticably less. No failures. No torn brass.

Cool. :cool:

I violated the principal concept of troubleshooting: change one thing and evaluate. So I can't really comment on the impact of each change beyond what has been discussed. However, I still like the results, scratch that, love the results. :D

So I take back any comment I made or thought about the 1911 design and 10mm cartridge incompatibility. I will duplicate the changes on my Kimber when I have the time and hope to attain the same results. My enthusiasm for my damascus slided project is renewed and I'm gonna start looking for a Delta now.

And a big thanks to Sean Smith.

[Marko Kloos]

Can't believe that Tamara doesn't yet have a 10mm Auto.

Not only does she have several 10mm handguns, she also owns the only Ruger Vaquero in 10mm I know.

(How to get one? Buy a limited edition Vaquero with both .38-40 and .40S&W cylinders, and have the gunsmith take a 10mm chamber reamer to the .40 cylinder. Fun!)

Then there's the Glock 29, and the new S&W Model 610.

(Am I forgetting one, Tam? :D )

[tex_n_cal]

I acquired a circa 1987 Delta last year. It was reliable, but inaccurate, so I fitted a Barsto unramped barrel. Instant tight groups:D

Careful with those handloads in an unramped barrel, especially a tight match barrel like the Barsto - in mine, I found that 12 gr AA#7 gave 1350 fps with 155's. 13 grains gave 1420 fps and bulged the cases enough to make me very nervous :what:

So far I have found that the factory Colt mag and a group of CMC 9 rounders work the best. The CMC's turn it into a 10 shot .357 magnum:D

King's makes a steel guide rod that allows use of the dual recoil springs while eliminating the plastic rod. I know lots of folks use a single heavy spring, but as a spring guy I think you're likely to get better spring life with two lighter stressed springs.

I added a S&A magwell to mine, and Ahrends combat checkered grips, to give it a bit more control.

I for one want two or three more of them. They are a hell of a fighting pistol:D

[Sean Smith]

Hey AndABeer,

Glad to hear all that stuff worked good! :D

If I was going to start working backwards, I'd consider going back to a standard-weight mainspring and see how that effects things with all the other goodies still in place. If you can't tell the difference between the heavy mainspring in and heavy mainspring out as far as recoil/brass/etc. goes, I'd stick to the standard spring.

My other swag would be that the AFTEC is what fixed your chewed up brass problem.

I added some updates to the 10mm tech page dealie... pretty soon I'm going to call it a done deal and put it on my main web site.

[AndABeer]

halfway done with my Kimber, as for mainsprings, I'll use a standard 23# instead of the 19# currently installed

I'm not touching the Razorback anymore ;)

[antsi]

Sean Smith, the page is nicely done and it's been very helpful to this 10mm newb.

I am getting the idea from the Brownell's web site that the EGW firing pin stop takes some fussin' to fit. Been through this job, or did you just take it to a gun smith?