[Art Eatman]

I'm all for it. Homo sap has been hunting with dogs since first we got dogs.

Bird dogs. Deer dogs. Lion dogs. Hog dogs. Bear dogs. What's the basic problem from an ethics standpoint?

The objections stem mostly from today's chopped up land ownership. Hard to keep deer dogs inside just one tract, since deer can't read property titles--nor can the dogs. But that's not an ethics deal.

If the hunting take is in balance without the use of dogs, there's no justification in using them as a hunting tool. Seems to me. The issue is then one of the basic enjoyment of hunting with dogs. Read MacKinlay Kantor's "The Voice of Bugle Ann".

One thing to consider as you think about it--and please think, rather than emote :) --is that there is a difference between not doing something because it's not your style and not doing something because of ethics issues. There are lots of things I won't do in hunting, but it's not an ethics thing so much as it's just not what I want to do.

Art

['Card]

It will be interesting to see the responses to this one.

Some of my best friends hunt deer with dogs. Personally? I'm not comfortable with it so I don't.

Does that make me a more ethical hunter than they are? Not in the least. In fact, they're some of the most ethical hunters I know.

That's why I don't care much for conversations about so-called hunting ethics. Way too much of it is based on personal experience and personal preferences. "What I do is ethical, and therefore if you do something different, it must be unethical." People like that enjoy waving the 'righteous indignation' flag way too much for me to take them seriously.

[Jalexander]

I'm for it, as long as you respect the rights of property owners. For me the problems come in when folks cross your property lines while 'coon hunting' and stir up the cattle, leave trash around, et cetera. But since people do that anyway, dogs or no, I certainly can't blame it on the dogs.

James

[H&Hhunter]

Any activity can be done correctly and with a strong regard for ethics or it can be done in a slovenly unethical manner.

One of the things that sets a houndsmen apart from other hunters is the knowledge and the care and the expense that goes into training caring for and working a pack or even a single dog.

People have many misconceptions about dog hunting for big game. At least in the arena of bear, lion and hog where my primary dog experience rests.

The dog is used to track and bay an animal. sometimes the chase (referred to as the "race" in dog hunter circles) is short. But more often than not it takes many miles of sweat a labor just to get to a place where the dog will "strike" a hot track. Once the race starts it often lasts, many miles and through very tough terrain. It is one of the most physically demanding outdoor activities on the planet.

My longest ever bear chase went 12 miles as the crow flies. But when you add in all the ups and downs and curviest it was more than 20 miles by the fat hunters foot.

Many times when you catch a critter it isn't the one you are looking for so you simply pull the dogs back and let it loose. In fact dog hunting is a true form of catch and release big game hunting.

Here is the fly in the ointment for a lot of hunters. We as a group have become confused with the difference between hunting and shooting. Many hunters think that hunting is making an incredible long-range shot in impossible conditions with a lovingly tuned and preened rifle. While that may well be part of the hunting experience for many it is not hunting, by definition it is shooting which is merely a component of hunting.

Shooting a treed critter does not allow one to use their carefully acquired and painfully cultured shooting ability. The shots tend to be easy and at close range. Which in my humble opinion is the same thing a hunter should be trying for in any hunting circumstance. If you can get closer get closer if you can get steadier get steadier. It makes for fewer wounded animals.

With that in mind here is the crux of it for me. A dog hunt in general is a much more difficult physical experience than your average spot and stalk hunt. The shot tends to be fairly non dramatic. The knowledge factor is very small for the average client hunter. The houndsmen will have a very specific and very strong knowledge set.

So the turns offs for the many are, they are along for the ride unless they've got a strong background in hound hunting and know how much skill really goes into effectively using a hound pack. They won't be making a long range challenging shot. They have a misconception about how easy and non challenging it will be to "just let the dogs out and then walk up to a tree and shoot something."

The last of course being flagrantly false despite the best efforts of anti hunting groups the world over.

Oh and in regards to the unchallenging shots you wouldn't believe some of the give me shots I've seen hunters miss on treed critters.;) You see not everybody is at the top of their game after a 14 hour stroll through the steep part of the Rockies. And then try to shoot Mr. Bruin from the top of a swaying tree 30 or 40 yards up with their new .44 hand slapper.;)

[marksman13]

I have no qualms about hunting any game animal with dogs, as long as it is done with respect to local land owners. I feel as though hunters who utilize dogs to hunt any animal should ensure that they have a large enough tract of land to ensure that the hunt stays on their property. There is nothing more agggrevating than sitting in the stand, watching deer feed in a green field and having a pack of dogs from the adjacent property run them off.

I understand that this may happen from time to time no matter how much land a dog hunter owns, and once in blue moon is not a problem. People who repeatedly ignore posted signs do annoy me, however.

That said, there is nothing more enjoyable than hearing a pack of beagles in hot pursuit of a rabbit, or watching a well trained Lab retieve ducks. I don't anyone to get the idea that I am against using dogs to hunt. Like Art said, it is only natural for our companions to follow us into the woods and the fields. I just believe that a little respect goes a long way towards promoting a positive attitude.

[Smokey Joe]

The very first hunting trip I was ever on, was with a neighbor and his 'coon hounds when I was about 8yo. I will never forget it as long as I live.

I 'gree with Art--"I don't do that" ≠ "I won't do that."

The antis would like nothing better than to see us split into a lot of hissy factions, each one against all the others. Outdoorspeople in general have a lot more in common and a lot more to lose, in common, than they have in their disparate groups.

[buck460XVR]

Walkin' up behind a dog staunch on point is got to be one of the prettiest things in the hunting world.....and just cause the dog tells you it's there don't necessarily mean it's in the bag. I 've gotten more satifaction over the years watchin' my gun dogs work than I have from shootin' over them. Their abilities still surprise me everytime I have the opportunity.

[skidooman]

hunting upland game with a good pointer is an amazing thing to watch. this lion hunt that i went on behind dogs was one of the coolest hunts ive ever been on. it was also the most challenging hunt ive EVER been on. and the guide said "oh that was an easy hunt." due to the fact that it was in about a foot and a half of snow at about 8000-9000 feet in elevation, and ONLY being about 4 miles. :eek:

[Striker]

Nothing is much better then working a good bird dog in my opinion, but hound hunting be it for rabbit, deer, hog or any other game critter doesn't appeal to me.

Having said that, I have no issue with those that do and support their choice in doing so. Just because I don't care for it, doesn't mean its wrong.

It's sorta like horses too. I'm in amongst a bunch of fox hunters here in VA, beautiful animals and great folks. I don't judge the fact that can't do any roping and cutting work, and they don't judge the fact that I can't jump 6 ft fences, ride what passes to them as proper saddle, (Where do you take a wrap of rope on a saddle without a horn?), or wear fancy britches & hats. But what we do have in common is that I chase birds and they chase fox on the same land.

I suppose my point boils down to what Smokey Joe said:
The antis would like nothing better than to see us split into a lot of hissy factions, each one against all the others. Outdoorspeople in general have a lot more in common and a lot more to lose, in common, than they have in their disparate groups.

Bears some thought maybe?

[DogBonz]

yea sure.

Deer with dogs I think is a bit cruel. The dogs will run a deer until it collapses from exhaustion. Now that can’t be a fun way to go. Not only that, but as I understand it, and I could be wrong, but that means that the meat will be full of lactic acid, which does not taste good.

[Picknlittle]

I guess for the issue of dog usage becomes one of local tradition or accepted culture.

I was raised in western Ky. and now live in middle Tn. about 40 miles from my home town. Dogs are used for birds, rabbits, coons and even squirrels pretty much but not for deer. I do accept that in different regions, things are done differently.

By the same token, black tail deer hunting in the cascade mountains of Washington is very different from whitetail hunting in here. Some might think it unethical to sit in a tree stand in at the edge of a corn or bean field deer to step out.

The most unethical thing one can do in my opinion is take risky, long range shots that are more likely to result in a wounded deer left to die in the woods. Sort of like the bench shooter in that video clip making the 890 yd kill. That's just not responsible hunting. It's nothing more than target shooting at live animals. That truely gets my goat.

[Art Eatman]

Ruark probably wrote one of the better descriptions of deer hunting with dogs, in "The Old Man and the Boy".

Deer tend to circle back, not take off and run across country. So, hunters take stands in likely areas. Dogs find deer; chase deer. Deer circles past the waiting hunter. Odds are the deer hasn't run all that far.

Years back I watched from across the Appalachicola river as a doe evaded dogs on the other side. I heard all the baying and walked to where I could look. The doe came to the river bank and worked her way downstream maybe 50 yards and then back up into the brush. The dogs located her again, so she swam across the river, coming out quite near me. I'd guess a 200-yard swim. She shook herself, wagged her tail, and walked off into the brush. She didn't appear to be anywhere near exhausted.

FWIW, Art

[Art Eatman]

One more dog/deer story and I'll shut up.

I was once driving US 98, east from US 319 toward Perry, Florida, through the Appalachicola National Forest.

Florida hunting rules were that dog hunters couldn't begin until noon. So, about 11:30 or so, there were pickups strung out for several miles, with hunters and dogs. I dunno, over a hundred trucks, typically with two or three guys per truck.

Hard for me to believe that those mostly-backwoods Crackers thought that a chased deer was bad eating. Personally, IMO they probably ate deer meat all year 'round. :D (You have to have lived around that general area to know those folks.)

Art

['Card]

I've never bought into the adrenaline thing too much. I trade favorite cuts of venison with a buddy of mine who hunts with dogs all the time. His venison tastes about the same as mine, as far as I can tell. Occasionally better, because the deer he kills are usually cornfield-fed, while mine usually grow up eating acorns and such.

I've gone with them a few times and watched how they do it. The dogs are trained to get on the deer's trail, and then turn it back in kind of circle - or maybe they just do that naturally, I'm not sure. At any rate, they listen for the dogs, take a guess at where the deer are coming, then go charging hell-for-leather across these fields to get in position. They hunt with shotguns to limit their range and reduce the chance of hitting one of their dogs.

When it all works the way it's supposed to, you're standing there when the deer break from cover and often come running full-blast right towards you. You have to wait until they get fairly close, and then open up on 'em as they go by. You'd think, from the way I describe it, that they probably miss or wound a lot of deer, but they don't. Those guys were some damned good shots, and they've been doing this sort of thing for years. The fact that you've got 4 or 5 guys standing there in a line blazing away like hell probably has something to do with it too. :cool:

So anyway, it's a hell of a lot of fun, but not really my thing. I like stalking, being sneaky, reading sign, tracking, solving a puzzle, and solitude when I hunt. Hunting with the dogs definitely isn't something I could do on a regular basis, but I enjoy going with friends who do it every once in awhile.

[MCgunner]

Well, I started the war in the other thread, I guess, with my opinions on the subject....:uhoh:

[Bwana John]

Reminds me of a Big Chesapeke Bay Retrevier (Ol' Bub)that a packer I worked for owned.

The dog was a great retreiver on waterfowl, and was really making a name for himself on upland birds when his owner started guiding pack trips into the Sierra Nevada with deer hunters.

By the 2nd deer shot he knew exactly what the game was, all you had to do was follow him untill he pointed (and he almost NEVER ran, he "ambled" he was a just big somewhat goofy, lazy, waterdog), then you sent him into the brush, and shoot the Buck (always a buck) as it ran out of the bushes. Old Bub would then find the dead buck and try his hardest to drag it back to you.

Kind of a funny thing though, in that area hunting deer traditionly with dogs (by running them) was NOT "ethitical or legal", but when people found out about the "deer dog" it was concidered OK, because he used traditional bird technique i.e. point/flush/retreive.

[308win]

Dogs have a traditional and cherished role in hunting. I do not agree on ethical grounds with use of dogs and tracking devices to tree game and keep it treed while some nimrod and his guide finally arrive. Neither do I support allowing the dogs to tear a treed animal apart in the name of sport - this is nothing more than sadism to both the dog and the quarry. Justifying it as instinct is trying to put lipstick on a pig.

['Card]

I do not agree on ethical grounds with use of dogs and tracking devices to tree game and keep it treed while some nimrod and his guide finally arrive.
Bravo! Well done. No qualifiers. Nothing to specify that it's just your personal opinion. Oh, and the gratuitous use of an insulting term (nimrod) to describe anyone who disagrees and participates in activities you disapprove of? Perfection.

...people waving the 'righteous indignation' flag
Classic example. Practically a textbook case, 308. Thank you. Just in the nick of time, too. We were all in mortal danger of actually having an intelligent, reasoned discussion on a divisive issue. I appreciate you nipping that in the bud for us.

[308win]

What would you call them sportsmen? I appologize for assailing your sensibilities but when I see a segment where in the guide and his client turn dogs wearing locating collars loose to tree and hold an animal overnight I have a hard time recognizing the sport in that. But then that is me.

[longrifleman]

One more dog/deer story and I'll shut up.


Aw, come on Art. I'm pretty sure you have a couple more stories stashed somewhere. They're worth twice the price of admission.:p


I do not agree on ethical grounds with use of dogs and tracking devices to tree game and keep it treed while some nimrod and his guide finally arrive.

Spoken like someone who has never coon hunted in his life. Until you've actually done some of this, you have no idea how evenly matched the dogs and most other animals are. What chance does a deer ambushed from 400 yds away have? Actually, more than most non-hunters realise, but almost no hunters think that is unethical if you are capable of the shot.

In the Bible and in legend, Nimrod (Standard Hebrew נִמְרוֹד Nimrod, Tiberian Hebrew נִמְרֹד Nimrōḏ), son of Cush, grandson of Ham, great-grandson of Noah, was a Mesopotamian monarch and "a mighty hunter before Yahweh".

If only I was a mighty hunter.:neener:

[308win]

I have coon hunted with my grandfather and we never left dogs on tree and never forced the coon out for the dogs to rip to pieces. When we got to the tree I was in charge of the light and granddad would shoot the coon between the eyes so the hide wasn't ruined. We also spent more than one night locating a dog that had ran off to the next county and were fortunate enough never to lose a dog. I have also been waist deep in very cold water when a dog chased the coon into the creek to keep the dog from getting drowned - some might think my granddad thought more of his dogs than me but that never crossed my mind at the ripe age of 11 or 12, it was just something you did.

Deer hunting with dogs is something I have never been exposed to other than through reading so I can't say that I would or wouldn't enjoy it; I am not much of a deer hunter as it is.

My dad and uncles and I used to bird (quail) hunt with and without dogs. The dogs made the job easier and you seldom lost a down bird. Unlike some hunters we never hunted a covey to the last bird which was easy enough to do with a good dog. On the other hand, those hunters didn't hunt our land nor the neighbors as they would like as not also be the kind of hunter who would bust down your fences, hunt in fields that livestock was using, and generally conduct themselves inappropriately in other ways - at least that was my observation.

[Vern Humphrey]

Deer with dogs I think is a bit cruel. The dogs will run a deer until it collapses from exhaustion. Now that can’t be a fun way to go. Not only that, but as I understand it, and I could be wrong, but that means that the meat will be full of lactic acid, which does not taste good.

Not true.

When I lived in Virginia, I was a member of a club that leased 6,000 acres. Under the terms of membership, I had to participate in a certain number of "cooperative" hunts -- hunts with dogs -- each year.

The deer merely keep moving in front of the dogs -- the dogs rarely get close enough to see a deer, and most of what they do is bark and trail. Typically, the deer will pass your stand some 10 to 20 minutes ahead of the dogs, moving slowly and calmly and turning back and letting the dogs go past.

The key question is, what is the impact on numbers of deer? If dogs were as bad as all that, there would soon be no deer in the country. But that ain't so!!

Virginia had so many deer that they tried everything to raise the bag -- including selling extra deer tags for $12.00 for two deer! They even surveyed the hunt clubs -- and got an interesting finding. The limit was "one a day" and hunters explained if you killed a deer in the morning hunt, you couldn't hunt in the afternoon. And the success of a cooperative hunt is related to the numbers of hunters.

The Virginia Fish and Game Department changed the rules to "Two deer a day!"

[BIGR]

Birds with dogs does make it easier than just stomping down the woods. Heck yea I have used beagles on my rabbit hunts. Deer hunting is different though. I prefer to stalk deer or to stand hunt. If someone else likes using dogs for deer hunting then thats their cup of tea.

[Smoke]

I got no problem with it.

Smoke

[MinScout]

Men and dogs have hunted together since there have been men and dogs. I think I'm a very ethical hunter, but I differ with many of these "new-age nimrods" who frown on pursuing game with dogs. The only qualms I have are with the use of electronic collars and walkie talkies.

[Art Eatman]

'Scuse my ignorance: Do electronic collars have a transmitter? If so, seems to me that's a good thing. If you're hunting in new country and wind up a dozen or more miles from the starting point and the dogs are a mile or three away, the dog knows neither the way to the truck nor can he hear a call.

Lost dog = Bad deal. Triangulate and find the dog?

Still and all, there's no style of hunting that cannot be done in some sort of cruel manner or cheating form or other unethical style.

Shouldn't confuse what's done with how it's done.

In this particular for-instance, it seems to me that .308 is looking at the how instead of the what.

As for opinions, my opinion is that sarcasm and name-calling are unethical. :)

Art

[MCgunner]

Any number of strategies we use afield can be thought of as unethical. It is unethical to put out fake ducks and call a duck call to lure the duck into range? Is that "fair chase"? How about goose decoys? Is it fair chase to sit at an automatic feeder that feeds corn twice a day to ambush deer as they come to the feed? I do it, only way I can hunt on 20 acres successfully unless i got REAL lucky, and it's legal in Texas. Once I was hunting up in New Mexico, talking to a local. He says, "Yeah, them Texas War Wagons ain't legal up here". "You Texans come up here with 'em, you know, seat over the cab 20 feet in the air, drive down the road and spot deer to shoot from the road?" Well, in Texas on private ranches this is both legal and popular on private ranch roads. I've done it, twice, on a day hunt with a guide. Not really my cup of tea, but hey, it's legal!

What works in one area of the country don't work for squat in another. The kind of spot and stalk hunting that I really enjoy that I've done out in Art's part of our great state just simply doesn't work down here in the brush and high grass where you can't see 100 yards. Feeder watching is about the only way to hunt whitetail around here and it's overwhelmingly the popular choice. A whole industry of feeders and stands has grown up around it. Yet in other states it's outlawed as "unethical baiting". Well, I don't live in other states.

If you think hunting with dogs is unethical, that's your opinion and you have a right to hunt any way you want. But, be aware that others don't share your opinion and in other parts of the country, chasing game with dogs is great sport. It's not legal in Texas to chase deer with dogs, but I think there are places where it is. I would try it where it is legal. I'm not going to do ANYTHING that is illegal where I'm hunting, because, well, that would definitely be unethical as well as illegal. If the game department allows it for game management and uses it as a method, who am I to argue?

[Atticus]

Dogs increase productivity. Some people have an issue with that and others don't. I don't. Good beagles on scent, or pointers and retrievers in action are a sight to behold...and a joy to hunt with. I've never owned a hunting breed, but fortunately, I've hunted many times with those who do, and it's a lot of fun.
We can't use dogs here for deer hunting though, and a few guys I know will shoot any dog they see running deer....of course they might shoot the deer first. I have one friend who would probably shoot his own beagles if he caught them running deer.

[Byron Quick]

I've never hunted with dogs. And I'm in prime dog hunting territory. Waynesboro, Georgia calls itself the Bird Dog Capital of the world. Big field trial annually at the Di-Lane Plantation. Lots of deer hunting with dogs.

Hats off to the coon hunters. Some of my best nights in deer camp have been spent listening to coon hunters in the swamps trying figure out where in the hell they were.

About the only concern I've ever had with dog hunters is lost dogs on my hunting property. I didn't want the deer chased. But then, all of the lost dogs I've ever seen on my property weren't chasing deer. They were lost, knew it, and were looking for the truck, the kennel, the owner, and FOOD. Simple solution was to call the dog, feed it, read the information on the collar, call the owner, and return the dog.

[redneck2]

I think we have a real problem when something that's legal is disparaged by other hunters. Kinda gets into the snobby trap vs skeet, pistol vs benchrest thing.

When I was a kid, we fox hunted with dogs. Some of my best memories were being with my uncle sitting in the pickup and watching the dogs.

I figure the F&W guys ought to know more than I do, so if it's legal, have at it.

Maybe it's not my thing, but then it's not my business. You live your life to suit you, and I'll live mine to suit me.

[buck460XVR]

IMHO, arguing ethics on an internet forum is like p*ssing into the wind.......STUPID.

We all have our own values in life depending on how and where we are raised and the type of ethics we have been exposed to. As long as one stays within the confines of the law, ethics is nuttin' more than a personal choice....kinda like ford vs chevy...bud lite vs miller lite. Ethics also change as we mature or society changes them for us.....for instance, when I was a pup, spanking at home AND at school were not only acceptable, but encouraged. Nowadays a parent/teacher will go to jail for hitting a child. How many of us, when we first started hunting as younguns shot at everything that was legal(and sometimes not) and as we matured changed our style to be more selective and more challenged?

We as hunters may not have to agree with one another, but we do need to support each other to protect our right to hunt, whether or not a certain hunting style is ethically acceptable to us or not.

[Art Eatman]

buck, one of the reasons for this website and this forum is education, imperfect as it may be.

I've noticed lots of newbies come here with questions. We struggle along to give answers as best we can.

If nothing else, discussing ethics makes people think--as cruel as that may be...

:), Art

[buck460XVR]

buck, one of the reasons for this website and this forum is education, imperfect as it may be.

I've noticed lots of newbies come here with questions. We struggle along to give answers as best we can.

If nothing else, discussing ethics makes people think--as cruel as that may be...

, Art


Art, you're correct, and the reason I am here is for information and education. I agree that the discussion of ethics makes people think, it's the arguing with the "my way or no way" attitude that I think is stupid. It seems it don't matter whether it's hunting ethics, politics, whose gun kills the best, religion or whether or not real bikers wear chaps, folks loose their respect for other folks' opinions and it ends up with a bunch of sour feelings. My point is that we as gun enthusiasts need to respect and understand our differences and appreciate what we have in common instead of focusing on personal views. I realized a long time ago that I can't truly judge a person from what I read on an internet forum.

[308win]

The neighbor down the road had an Irish Setter that was a pet not a working dog as the neighbor didn't hunt much. The setter used to see me hunting and usually invited himself along. It was always an adventure because if it wasn't flora he was pointing it - turtles, ground sparrows, horse turds, rabbits, you name it - and he looked really good doing it. And on the rare coincidence when he was pointing birds forget retrieving.

[Art Eatman]

buck, I guess the anonymity of the Internet will always have that percentage of Keyboard Kommandos who bloviate. About all you can do is ignore the silly twits.

:), Art

[Picknlittle]

There are a number of things that prolly shouldn't be discussed in an internet forum simply because of world representation. We run into the same things discussing music, and music styles. If one approaches a subject from an "I'm right and you're wrong" position, then the discussion is doomed.

First, ethics are like religion and politics. They don't do well in an open forum because so many views are represented and we are all right!,...From our personal perspectives.

As for legal issues, some states allow deer hunting with dogs, some don't. Some countries, states, counties, etc,..allow or disallow things based on local laws, traditions and other ethical/political positions, just as in some places it illegal to own a firearm,...even a shotgun.

Hunting methods too are regional too. It's good to discuss what is accepted and even the why's, but it would be wrong for me in middle Tn to dictate methods used in Mississippi. swamps, Montana mountains or Iowa corn fields.

It is interesting to hear how things differ throughout this global community.

[redneck2]

It is interesting to hear how things differ throughout this global community.

I'd buy that.

Remember, this is the internet, so people are free to post their views that differ from mine, wrong as they probably are...

:D

I appreciate the fact that we can have differing opinions here without getting into fist fights.

I don't go to opera, ballet, or musicals. Leaves more seats for the people that want to go.

[Smokey Joe]

Redneck2--Good point.I don't go to opera, ballet, or musicals. Leaves more seats for the people that want to go.I used to look down my nose @ golfers (even though I'm a Scot.) Then one day I realized: Hey, they're having fun, not harming anyone else, and they are NOT crowding up my fishing lakes! What am I complaining about???

[Art Eatman]

From what I've seen here in our discussions, differing opinions are not the problem. It's emotion-based opinions that have no argument behind them that create a problem. "I feel..." may be fine for any one individual, but there's no argument to cause a change of view for any other person.

Problems really arise when somebody is in essence saying, "My feelings are so strong about this that I want you to quit living your life your way and do as I tell you." Which is what the anti-hunters are actually meaning when they try to get laws passed against our doing what we do.

Art

[Diamondback]

Some forms of hunting are more challenging or "sporting" for ME ....and that may be exactly what I'm looking for on occasion. Other times I want to narrow the odds of legally putting deer meat in the freezer.....and if that means hunting with dogs or over a previously baited area as allowed by law, I've done that. It may not be as "sporting" as a pure stalk......but then I've put good meat in the freezer and had some positive impact on a local ecosystem that at times is just too damn over-populated with deer. I've got no truck with anyone hunting with dogs.......Personally, however, I take no pleasure in seeing a pack of dogs rip apart a wild animal after a chase. But that's a whole nuther topic.

Also, I've learned different regions have particular hunting "do's and don'ts" beyond what's contained in the law ....unwritten ethics and traditions. Common sense dictates you honor those "rules" when you're in the other fellows backyard !

- Regards

[reddogIII]

I've been hunting with dogs my whole life - 50 years. Bird dogs are the only ethical way to hunt birds, especially waterfowl. A well-trained and enthusiastic dog will find many more downed and injured birds than the average hunter will take the time to look for. Upland birds - nothing prettier than a German Shorthair on point! Again with the retrieving thing and finding a downed/injured bird in tall grass or other cover.

Ran hound dogs on bears from S. California to SouthCentral Alaska 20+ years. In most cases, the only way the average hunter is going to find a bear in the woods. As far as tracking collars (locator collars) - back in the good old days, a man could take his dogs out and take a week, if that's what it took, to find all his dogs and whatever game he's hunting. In today's world, where the average man is lucky to get a weekend to go hunting, spending several days looking for lost dogs is unrealistic. Being able to locate your dogs when they are out of hearing with a locator collar is the quickest, most effective and even humane method of accomplishing that. It is not unheard of for a dog, during trapping season, to be inadvertantly caught in a trap, or lost, or for whatever reason drops out of the game due to injury, exhaustion, etc. A well-trained hound dog is worth in excess of $5000! Pretty good chunk of money to have to leave in the woods because you have to be at work Monday morning.

As to being ethical, why do you think there are so many different breeds of dogs? Even poodles are water retrievers, believe it or not!

Rant over.

[Hook686]

February 15th, 2007, 08:41 AM #1
Art Eatman
Moderator


wrote:

Dogs & Ethics

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

...

One thing to consider as you think about it--and please think, rather than emote --is that there is a difference between not doing something because it's not your style and not doing something because of ethics issues. There are lots of things I won't do in hunting, but it's not an ethics thing so much as it's just not what I want to do.

Art




hmmmmm I'm not understanding the difference. Ethics are not like some codified law.


from: http://www.answers.com/topic/ethics-legal-term

'ethics, in philosophy, the study and evaluation of human conduct in the light of moral principles. Moral principles may be viewed either as the standard of conduct that individuals have constructed for themselves or as the body of obligations and duties that a particular society requires of its members.'


To me, ethics are personal standards I apply only to myself ('not doing something because it's not your style'), or moral standards applied, under force of law, by the group, community, state, or nation, I belong to, and wish to remain with. These seem to me as arbitray as any perception can be.

Yes think about it. Ethics are what any given entity want them to be, at a particular moment, in time.


I think it valuable to learn to be nice to each other. If a friend invites me to go hunting, and I know he uses dogs, I am honest with him, I thank him for the invite, and tell him, that I simply do not enjoy hunting with dogs, but thanks anyway, and you have a great hunt. I see no problem here ... he does what he considers ethical, I do what I consider ethical, 'Different strokes, for different folks'.

The problems I see, is when one persons 'ethics' come in conflict with written law (lawyers). If an unleashed dog, no matter what it is doing, enters a persons property, I figure it is open season on that dog ... I've even read of it on these boards. I think that is ethical, how about you ?

[xd45gaper]

here in North FL they let the dogs out the hunters sit in groups along the road bed in the back of trucks with shotguns loaded with buckshot.(its legeal here) the dogs run the deer through the swamp then back around till the deer runs across the road bed and thats when the hunterS shoot it. normally you will hear around 10-15 shots when they get one in shooting distance.

im not a big fan of it dog hunting deer. they have those deer so jacked up during the season its almost the only way to hunt them. this is both in the Still hunt and Dog hunt areas (which the dog hunters really dont care because im sure it was said before dogs nor deer know boundry lines)

[Skoghund]

I hunt roe deer with a Taxen (Dachshund). As they have short legs they never push the deer to fast and a good taxen will get the deer running in circles. First you must light a fire. Then you let the dog lose to pick up and start hunting a deer. Back to the fire to brew coffee and grill korv. Once refreshed with Coffee and korv you go to you stand and hope the deer runs by. Also hunt pheasant with a cocker spaniel. Hope to get a Slovensky kopov to train for the wild boar hunting later in the year. We have dogs here in sweden for Hunting everything from Bear to Pheasants. love hunting with dogs :D

[reddogIII]

Skoghund, Can I come? I can light the fire.

[Smokey Joe]

ReddogIII--Skoghund, may I come with Reddog and share the gasoline cost? I'll brew coffee & make omelettes, and in honor of hunting in Sweden, will shoot a 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser (with which I got a deer here this year.) Dachshunds are courageous little dogs! I would really like to see one running a deer!

BTW, could you explain korv?

[Art Eatman]

Hook, a re-phrasing might be that one should not confuse personal dislikes with ethics. That's been seen in these discussions.

I use "ethics" in this particular situation to mean the commonly accepted usage as regards "fair chase" and not poaching. It includes other issues such as "good of the species" in establishing allowable sizes or bag limits.

Art

[reddogIII]

Skoghund and Smokey Joe:
I, too, will be bringing my 6.5x55.

Art Eatman:

Talking about ethics and bag limits - as I said earlier, a good bird dog will find more wounded and downed birds than your average hunter is ever going to look for, therefore less wasted game.

About hound dogs and ethics - most of my experience is with treed game. Not every animal is harvested. This allows the hunter to pick and choose, and ethics are in the heart of the hunter. And, by the way, I teach Hunter Safety courses, and ethics is a big part of each class.

[Skoghund]

. Reddog 111 and smokey joe. Hunting deer with a dog starts on the 1st October. So pack your gear and the fire wood will be dry. Korv are sausages. Grill korv are the best

[Art Eatman]

I've never actually hunted with dogs, although I did have one adventure, back some 35 years ago.

I had a really neat mixed-breed dog, mostly Dobie. He was sort of a do everything dog. Watch/guard, flush quail, track and catch when they hit the ground and bring it to me, unhurt.

I was horsebacking in the pasture one time, when the dog jumped a doe. Okay, I sez, let's chase. And we did. Boogity, boogity, boogity, let's go racing! The only problem was that the doe went into the mesquite brush. The dog went under the mesquite brush.

My horse, thinking this was all great fun, sailed right on into the mesquite.

That's really rough on clothing and skin. I looked like a walking advertisement for Johnson & Johnson's BandAids, the next day.

There are some things you only do once.

:D, Art

[Striker]

Art,

Next time don't bring a horse to a mule ride!:D

[Mannlicher]

Art,
For me, he problem with the deer hunting/dog/ethics issue revolves around the overall ethics and behavior of dog hunters . In my 50 + years of hunting in Georgia, Florida South Carolina and Virginia, I have found the dog hunters the group most likely to ignore property lines, bag limits, and the rights of other hunters in the woods. The dog hunters I have been around have created damage to the woods and roads, vandalized the tree stands and vehicles of others, and generally behaved poorly.
I love the dogs, I have issues with the dog hunters.

Speaking of McKinnley Kantor, his book, "If the South Had Won the Civil War" has always been a favorite of mine.