[P95Carry]

Tuner made a very good point in the 1911 thread .. better to reload on a hot chamber in battery .... as against a slide lock situation.

I agree .. totally .. but this presupposes we ''auto-count'' as we shoot .... I know I do in normal conditions, be it revo or auto but .... under stress??? Not sure!!

With revo .... it would assist prep'ing or reaching for a speedloader maybe ... as we realize #6 is about gone (OK . maybe #7 or 8 ....... damn .. always were 6 shooters once!).

With auto .... you'd ideally want to know that last round has just stripped off mag .. quick drop ... in with fresh ....... and on you go.

Over many years of compo shooting I have nurtured this ..... and usually am right on the money ... but if distracted/stressed .... really not at all sure. Would hate to reach slide lock if avoidable and .... well, dumping a mag with ammo in it ..... not desirable but maybe better bet if unsure.

Over to you ........

[falconer]

I think counting under stress is a bit overrated. I think the weight difference between a full mag and a near empty mag is probably the best method for dealing with reloads.

[P95Carry]

I think the weight difference between a full mag and a near empty mag is probably the best method Can't agree there falconer ..... maybe i am odd one out but ....... manage to assess weight of gun under duress??? Sorry .. can't see it! Not at all!!

[arinvolvo]

If you shoot a pistol enough, you dont need to count....I am never consciously counting, but I always seem to know when I am about to pull the trigger on my last shot.

[P95Carry]

seem to know is that really good enough arin? My emphasis but ..... this is about not getting to an empty chamber ... which could be life or death. Is ''seems'' really satisfactory?

In your case may well be .... perhaps your ''count'' is so subconscious .. could well be ... otherwise how can you tell. Something has to numerically decrement that available supply ..... should the critical reload be needed.

No flame ... just probing!!:)

[Jim Watson]

Jeff Cooper used to teach counting.
IPDA says it is not realistic and doesn't allow it; but nobody expects a revolver shooter to fire six and click on empty before reloading. And the good ones don't, the ordinary ones seldom.

I assume arinvolvo shoots the same magazine capacity all the time.

I can't feel the weight change as ammo is depeleted, certainly not while shooting. But I can feel the balance shift as the slide locks back and can't understand the people who stand there pulling the trigger under a locked back slide.

[Soap]

I'll echo Jim's statement 100%

I can't feel the weight change as ammo is depeleted, certainly not while shooting. But I can feel the balance shift as the slide locks back and can't understand the people who stand there pulling the trigger under a locked back slide.

[El Tejon]

How can you tell the weight of the weapon with all the yelling, running, et al???:confused:

Empty gun is part of fighting, not a case of beer. Put it back together get back in the fight.

[Stay Low]

If s**t hits the fan I think you're gonna shoot it dry. Front sight, front sight, squeeze and realize nuttin left, reload, and start over if necessary. I've seen a ton of police reports where all 3 or 4 or however many officers emptied their guns. I think ya shoot til they fall down or you're dry. But hey, never done it, could be just my imagination once again.

[faustulus]

IPDA says it is not realistic and doesn't allow it

Don't get me started. IDPA wouldn't know real if it bit them in the buttocks.

You shoot until the threat is down or you run out. If it goes down drop the mag and throw in a fresh one. Reloading is something to do when you are not shooting at something. However, I don't think this is a problem in most gunfights -- except in Hollywood or IPSC courses.

[goalie]

Well, all I know is that in the first firefight I was in, the first mag was gone, the bolt was locked back, and I was trying not to pee myself. That was when I realized that you should put in a fresh magazine at any chance you get. If you can count while under fire, you are cooler than a cucumber in a bowl of hot sauce. :rolleyes:

Edit: well, I just realized that I was in the handgun forum, and I was not shooting a handgun, but I think the point is still valid. There is a reason we loaded the first several rounds of a mag with tracers (they would be the last fired), because you were not going to count when the SHTF, but it is always a good thing to know when your well is going to run dry.

[arinvolvo]

P95, Jim....I think you misunderstand...When I am calm, relaxed at the range etc....I DO "seem" to know when my last shot is...without consciously thinking and counting...

Will this cut the mustard in a shoot out? Hell no...Im going to pump lead until the slide locks back, and most likely not even recall pulling the trigger that many times.

And yes, for the most part, the guns I fire regularly carry the same capacity. My Steyr and my Ruger 22 both carry 10 rounds...and I always "seem":D to know when I am pulling the trigger on my last round.

On my Autauga, the slide does not lock back...and it is DAO...SO I DO count...I count to six, then check the chamber....I dont like pulling the trigger on an empty chamber the 7th time. No dry fire thing. Sometimes, I even go so far as to load a snap cap first into the mag, before the live rounds....Just in case I loose count, I wont drop the hammer on an empty chamber.

[Blueduck]

One fella who did some excellent court testimony training for us mentioned that his former duties included investigating officer shootings in St. Louis. He stated officers often claimed to have fired only 2 or 3 shots, but when he opened up the revolvers he would find all 6 chambers fired most of the time FWIW.

Now on the opposite side...I ditched my 5 shot 640 for 6 shot 65 several years ago. Even TWO YEARS later I found myself occasionally ejecting a live round from the 6 shot gun during qulifications by accident. I was never trying to count shots, just became a natural action I guess. (btw Wonder if that could happen to a guy who practices a lot with ten round mags but carries hi-caps ???)

My personal policy is not to use training time trying to count shots, just don't trust my ability to do so under stress so I don't consider it worthwhile.

[Country Boy]

I can count in practice under little or no stress, but I don't think it would be valuable in real life. If there is a threat, you should be shooting, not reloading. If the slide locks, you speed reload. If the threat is gone, tactical reload. You shouldn't be worried about counting shots in the heat of the moment.



"It’s our experience that in a fight you will continue to shoot the gun until the threat goes away or until the gun is empty."

"If you’re not shootin’, you should be loadin’. If you’re not loadin’, you should be movin’. If you’re not movin’, someone’s gonna cut your head off and put it on a stick."
- Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch

[Jim March]

Wait...hold it...I'm still hung up on the idea of IPDA "banning counting".

HowinHELL do they do that? Assuming you don't count out loud, that is?

[BigG]

When the wundernines first started to get out into the mitts of the LEO community it was quite common to read of "suspect shot 17 times," etc. The natural tendency is to empty the piece, at least for some people.

[Mute]

In the middle of a gunfight, I thik counting rounds should be one of the last things you should be worried about. Use some common sense. If you've fired a few rounds, and there's some kind of lull in the action, take good cover, survey your surroundings and do a quick mag change if the situation allows for it. It doesn't hurt you to do so.

[P95Carry]

I think part of my reason for bringing this up was ...... the fact that over quite some years of compo' shooting, I found it almost automatic to be subconsciously almost ... decrementing my shots ...... and thus have been imagining applying that to any ''situation''. (It all started from revo useage initially ... the auto count to 6.)

An extreme stress level tho could well not only (I admit) make that not happen but ....... maybe more important .... by it not occuring, make it much easier to fire on an empty chamber (with revo), or be in slide-lock with auto - which might just be critical.

I can see that many here do not find it either necessary or seemingly desirable ..... my point tho would still be that if in circumstances that did in fact require reloads, then I'd certainly prefer to be aware of ammo status. Maybe I'm just odd! :p

[M1911]

I seriously doubt that I would be able to count the number of rounds fired in a gunfight. Instead, I spend my training time on reloading quickly. YMMV.

[Logistar]

I really think you probably instinctively have an idea (at best).

I don't see myself saying (in my best Dirty Harry voice)...

"Well... in all the excitement I can't remember whether I fired 2 shots or 15....)

If I get the chance to switch mags and I have fired "a few" shots (I am GUESSING over 4 or 5) then I will reload if the situation permits.

I am not saying that I am counting the rounds. - only that I KNOW when I have fired "several" rounds as opposed to 2 or 3.

If I can safely reload, I will unless I am SURE I have only fired 1 or 2 shots.

[cool45auto]

I forget at the range all the time.:rolleyes: I'll be pulling the trigger and think "this has got to be the last one."

Gotta love those hi-caps!:cool:

[P95Carry]

Thx all ..... appreciate all the input. I guess in truth I probably know that under extreme duress I'll fail miserably at a count ... tho hope to never be in that extreme state!

No harm in wishing I could still do it tho!:p

[faustulus]

Wait...hold it...I'm still hung up on the idea of IPDA "banning counting".

They won't let you drop an empty mag with the slide down. If the slide is down you still have to retain the mag EVEN IF IT IS EMPTY. They say this is to keep people from counting.

[E357]

quote:

Wait...hold it...I'm still hung up on the idea of IPDA "banning counting".

I think they watch your lips move as you shoot.

Aren't these the same guys that outlawed the 5" 625's because they kept beating the custom 1911's?

Elliot

[Graystar]

+2 on the mag....one in the pipe...with 20 rounds loaded in my Glock 17, I simply don't worry about such things.

[benewton]

Best guess for my response to the personal SHTF scenerio, assuming minor target response and the USPcl

COM hold.
"BANG BANG BANG CLICK CLICK: CLUNK, CLICK (fresh mag in), CRASH (slide forward)"

Anything still moving???

If not, then pull the dogs off the rubble, diall 911 (skip the medics: no rush).

Else, "BANG BANG BANG"...

If the favorite female, other wise known as the wife or boss, depending on the circumstances, doesn't bring the old A5 shotty into action. She might not, since carpets are a pain in the a** to clean, and, much less important to her, holes in the floor have to be repaired.

Seriously, between the stress, the weapon fired indoors without hearing protection, and so forth, there ain't no way there's going to be any kind of count in my head. Weapons balance my a**, I'd probably recognize the empty weapon when the recoil ceased on the clicked trigger pull which may, if you think about it, be a point against DA autos, since you'd probably recognize the failure to fire earlier with the SA types.

Enough of the "tactical" stuff: even the SWAT typed, JBT's all, CCW, not thigh holsters, on their way home.

Flame suit on, sprinklers working overhead, so you may all have at it.