[Higgins]

Why hasn't gas operation been utilized more for pistol designs? I am talking gas operation, not gas delay or retarding or gas braking like in the HK P7M8, Steyr GB, Heritage Stealth or Vector CP1. I mean gas operation as in Desert Eagle, or as in many rifles like AK-47, AR-180, AR15, FAL, etc....

I guess the gas operation design is called for in the Desert Eagle due to the cartridges it uses. But I don't see any inherent problem with utilizing gas operation for more standard cartridges like 9 mm, .40 sw, .45. And gas operation seems to offer a number of benefits.

So, why not? (Other than the standard arguments that 1) designers and manufacturers stick to what the market will support, i.e. a John Browning tilting barrel designs, and 2) the Browning design is the highest point of pistol design so why bother trying anything new or different. ;) )

[Handy]

List the benefits, then we can discuss this better.

[arinvolvo]

Handy, you are a smart @ss.

:D

But you are right...I dont see any benefits.

[Standing Wolf]

Gas mechanisms tend to add bulk and weight.

I'd like to know why no one's ever used hydraulic recoil absorbers in firearms.

[Higgins]

Off the top of my head, benefits would include fixed barrel, lower barrel axis, lighter slide, simpler manufacture, and looser tolerances equating to greater reliability,

. . . perhaps others if I thought about it more and if others more knowledgeable than me tinkered with the design.

There is no question that a gas operated 9mm or .45 is workable. Even if the only advantage was a fixed barrel, that benefit would be enough to at least recommend gas operation for further development.

[Handy]

Fixed barrel, lower barrel axis - correct, but can be achieved a number of ways.

Lighter slide - yes, or maybe. But you'll likely lose those savings to the gas handling parts. If you want pistonless system, like the AR, you'll need slide mass.

Simpler manufacture - no. Pistons are fairly precise parts. So is a reasonably light locking surface (AR style instead of AK). You'll need a barrel, bolt and bolt carrier, at a minimum. So you haven't saved an parts over recoil or gas delay.

You'll always have critical tolerances if the action is locked, recoil or gas. Otherwise, headspace becomes a big issue. Since we don't have many of these to talk about, you have to look at gas rifles for examples. They can work well enough, but they don't work any better than recoil operated machineguns or the G3 family.

Is it possible to make a light, accurate, simple gas operated pistol? Of course. But would require starting from scratch, so no assumptions about its performance could be made until you've built it - this isn't a rifle.

Is it necessary and would it sell? Unlikely on both counts. It seems like doing too much work for cartridges that will cycle in straight blowback designs.

I'll try and think of some shortcut, but nothing occurred right off.

Sorry to be an ???, but I'm sure Higgins is used to hearing that from me. We PM on this stuff from time to time.

[Vern Humphrey]

Gas operated pistols get HOT!

In a rifle, where the gas system is located well forward, that's not such a problem, but in a pistol, the gas system has to virtually rest on your shooting finger.

[Handy]

Vern, all guns get hot, it just depends where. If you want to negate the heat of a gas tube, either drill it into a bigger block of metal (sink) or route it on top, away from your hand.



Higgins, I came up with a simple, cheap, accurate, light gas operated pistol. Probably not what you're thinking of, but it does use gas to unlock the action.

Imagine a blowback action, like a PPK, with a spring loaded latch on the front of the barrel that locks the action when in battery. Now position a gas port so tapped off gas pressure kicks the latch out, unlocking the action. You could shape the latch so that when opened it nudges the slide rearward. Residual chamber pressure finishes the cycle, aiding extraction (as some rifles do).

So yeah, it could work.

[ebenw]

those Metal Storm guns?

Although not the same, I've a feeling that producing/innovating those might take a higher priority in the future of firearms.
They are electrically fired, preloaded clips(barrels) that can be designed to fire one projectile per trigger pull, or the whole clip in rapid succession(which is faster than you can perceive). Several barrels, or a whole lot of 'em, can be assembled to fire in parallel for area denial or for other more offensive purposes. Projectiles can range from teenie small to holy cow huge. For more check their site at

www.metalstorm.com

[dude]

K.I.S.S.

[faustulus]

Because H&K have already made the P7 and how do you improve on perfection? :D

[Nightcrawler]

There's a gas-operated slide conversion you can get for the 1911. Read about it in a Guns & Ammo magazine in my barber shop. Don't recall the manufacturer.

[Tamara]

That's not "gas-operated", it's "gas-delayed blowback".

Seems that gas-operated semiautos really only offer serious advantages when used in autos chambered for big, powerful rounds, where the extra bulk/complexity is no big deal.

[dude]

to whom it may concern (and faustulus) : the fine HK P7 series of pistols are NOT gas operated



please carry on

[owen]

Standing Wolf, many guns do use hydraulic buffers, but they tend to be belt fed MG's...the M240 and the Ma Deuce are the ones that spring to mind.

Owen

[Tamara]

Didn't the P7M7 (http://hkpro.com/p7m7.htm) use hydraulic recoil buffers?

[ACP230]

Gas operated pistol = "Is this trip really necessary?"

[Delmar]

You can also kiss using cast/swaged lead bullets goodbye-have a friend who tried that in his 357 Desert Eagle and produced the most interesting lockup I think I've ever seen. Took a rawhide mallet to open the action up. You are going to limit your choices of ammo too, as gas actions have to be tuned to the round.

[Jim Watson]

Jeff Cooper illustrated the Husqvarna gas operated pistols in about 1975. He said they had no particular advantage in conventional calibers but had possibilities for very high velocity rounds. "Something like a 17 caliber at Mach 3 that will burn through any feasible body armor." And that from Mr .45 ACP!

They had an annular piston around the barrel, wonder if Mr Wildey saw that picture?

[E357]

My buddy bought one of those gas operated 1911 conversions. What a piece of crap!. Did not fit or function at all and the guy scratched up my friend's brand new unfired Springfield. It's a very good thing this "gunsmith" lives on the other side of the country.

Eliot

[Sean Smith]

1911forum.com had several posts by users of the NCG gas guns (really gas delayed blowback) where the guns didn't actually work, but they were still out $600+ and a cut-up gun. :rolleyes:

[dude]

Delmar, what promped your 'friend' to use lead bullets in his Desert Eagle? Did he not read the factory warnings aginist such things??

[makdaddy03]

I have the Heritage Stealth 9mm. I like it alot. Small & Light weight.

[themic]

yeah i was about to bring up the heitage stealth

http://www.heritagemfg.com/stealth_exp.shtml

supposedly was a great gun that heritage no longer produces

i was interested in this same question a while back... and besides the desert eagles this was the only other gun i found. talked to the company, they said thye no longer produced it, hadn't for a while, alluded to motivation being they wanted to focus on revolvers only (looking at their website, that's all they make now).

still, would love to try one out oneday.

[Handy]

If you happen to go back to Higgins' post, you'll notice that gas delayed blowback was not what he was asking about. He was asking about gas operated, like military rifles work. Desert Eagle, Wildey, etc.

[themic]

ah, right, handy... missed that difference back when i was looking at em.

[Vern Humphrey]

I'm amazed no one has brought up the issue of belt-fed, tripod mounted handguns.:p

[Delmar]

dude This guy was an absolute peach! More money than sense. He got interested in shooting as a result of hanging around some of us who do. The first pistol he fired was sensible-a 4 inch model 10 of his sons. He then went to the gun store and bought a 2 inch Model 19, and after the first shot he fired, he was closing-not blinking his eyes when he pulled the trigger! I pulled him aside and told him that was pretty much an experts pistol, and either get some 38 wadcutters to practice with or get a heavier pistol. He traded the 19 in at a pretty good loss for a DE in 357-well, I have to say it sure was heavier!
As his son reloads, he didn't think twice-just picked up a box of 158 grain lead and started banging away, with predictable results. I didn't know much about DE's until that day, and I'd like to buy it off him as its the old 357 on the smaller frame, but he has learned his lesson well and has since become a pretty fair pistolero.

[Johnny C. Kitchens]

Wildey actually purchased the rights to the Husqvarna design for his pistol...


On the idea of hydraulic buffers for guns, there was one offered in the 60's. Winchester even offered it as an option. They raved about how it worked, but it made the butt of the gun look weird...

[faustulus]

Dude,
Technically aren't all semi autos 'gas operated'? But I was going by the gas retardations system as being the closest thing in pistol form, at least to my knowlege. ;)

[dude]

methinks recoil/inertia would be the primary op-system for auto pistols

............with gas opertated stuff being like the AR, FN, G3 and Desert Eagle op system

[David4516]

"Off the top of my head, benefits would include fixed barrel, lower barrel axis, lighter slide, simpler manufacture, and looser tolerances equating to greater reliability"

They already have something like that, it's called a 'blow-back' design...

[faustulus]

methinks recoil/inertia would be the primary op-system for auto pistols
and what do you theorize creates that 'equal and opposite reaction? I know what you are saying and I agree, but the expansion of gases and newton's law are what allow a semiauto pistol to work.

[Vern Humphrey]

Which is why we don't need all kinds of plumbing to make the gas do what it already does.