[chaim]

I've been doing a lot of thinking about this lately and I'm curious about where other THR members may be on this issue.

Initially, I was in the shotgun group. Long guns are very forgiving for sleepy eyes or under stress for accuracy. The 12ga is very powerful, especially when loaded with buckshot. When loaded down with birdshot it is still pretty effective and it proves to have less overpenatration issues than most handguns. Also, you can get a quality, brand new, pump-gun for used revolver type prices. However, there are still some overpentration issues with the buck, with bird you lose a lot of stopping power (and needed penatration), and either way there is a lot of recoil and blast.

Now, I'm not totally there but I'm leaning towards a .223 carbine as a perfect home defense gun. It is a rifle caliber so it has a lot of knockdown power. The .223 is a very well designed round for urban fighting so they actually have proven in testing to have less overpenatration than many handgun rounds. They too are long-guns which are very forgiving when tired or under stress for accuracy at home defense ranges. So far, birdshot shotguns and .223s sound pretty comprable, but the .223 has a major advantage in capacity (though it isn't likely you'll need a 20rnd AR mag for home defense, but at home where I'm not likely to be able to retreat I like the ability to overcome most possibilities) and its recoil is far less than any shotgun loading (faster follow-up shots if needed). It also will likely be easier to find someplace to practice with your defense loads with a rifle/carbine, and practice ammo is cheaper, both leading to more skill with your home defense weapon.

I'm leaning towards the .223 but I'm not totally decided. Where do you stand?

I'll probably be buying a 12ga or a carbine for home defense duties in a few months and I could use some help in deciding (both might not be an option before I get to graduate school).

[Ala Dan]

12 gague- Make mine a Remington 870 Marine Magnum!

Chaim, after careful thought maybe I need to explain
why I choose the shotgun? After year's of pounding
the pavement as a former LEO, I have virtually seen
grown men cut in half with a single blast from a 12
gague shotgun; and it really did not matter what
type of buck-shot was used, so long as it was #4
and above. Likewise, I have seen many folk's KIA
with a blast of 7-1/2 shot to the head area.

So, for short distances the shotgun works well;
especially if you encounter multiple would-be
assailant's. It's my first line of home D' ; backed
up of course with the .45 caliber SIG-Sauer P220
and a 6" Smith & Wesson 686-5 .357 magnum L-
frame. I don't think I can go wrong with either
choice!

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[CZ-75]

870, in 12 gauge. Use #4 buckshot if you worry about overpenetration.

[Feanaro]

I like shotguns better so I might be biased. I have never heard of someone surviving two 12 gauge buckshots. ;)

[Nightcrawler]

The .223 is a very well designed round for urban fighting so they actually have proven in testing to have less overpenatration than many handgun rounds.

Most of the people that have conducted such tests have been people who are selling .223 carbines, like Olympic Arms (http://www.olyarms.com).

Dave3006, back on TFL, went to an abandoned house and did tests with the mythical fragmenting .223 55 grain FMJ. According to his observations, the FMJ rifle round moving at 3100 feet per second easily slid through mulitple walls.

Who's suprised? I'm certainly not.

You don't have fragmentation in your assailant to worry about. What if you miss? How many walls will your round go through?

12 gauge #4 buck or birdshot won't go through many, and makes a MUCH larger/nastier wound than a single .22 caliber projectile could hope to.

Frankly, I would have to see the results of firing .223 rounds of various types at mockups of walls, plywood, plaster, drywall, and sheetrock, before I'd feel comfortable firing a rifle in my house. Especially since the houses on my block are so close together that my neighbor's house is literally 10 feet away...

[Andrew Wyatt]

my mini-14 points better than my mossberg 500. recoil is light, and there are 20 rounds on tap. on the other hand, the 500 is basically a repeating tower musket. tower muskets have panache.

I'd not feel unarmed with either.

[glockten]

There's another option: a semi-auto or lever rifle in a handgun caliber.

There are several semi-auto carbines chambered in 9mm, .40S&W, or .45ACP as well as several lever-action carbines firing .38 Spl, .357 Mag, .44 Spl, or .45 Colt. These would serve very well as HD weapons. Recoil with these calibers is negligible and muzzle blast is less than a 12 gauge or .223, with the possible exception of the .357.

A Marlin 1894P loaded with .44 Spl 200gr Silvertips, a Winchester 94AE Trapper with Federal .45 Colt 225gr LHPs, and a Marlin Mdl. 45 with 230gr Hydra-Shoks constitute my HD rifle battery.

[Nippy]

I think shotguns have better stopping power. But beyond 25yds I'd go with a carbine type weapon.

[Cliff]

A shotgun is what I use for my home defense. Of course I have other options,but considering the layout of my house,who and how many would be in my house at any given time of the day or night,location and distance of my neighbors houses,and other variables I have to consider,a scattergun with buckshot is my first line of defense.

[Oracle]

I think that it's pretty much 6 of one, half-dozen of the other. I think that it's good to have both a long gun and a handgun available, though, because a handgun is much more maneuverable and much less likely to be able to get grabbed while moving through a house, if you have to flee. For stationary defense (like in a safe room), I'd choose a long gun. Personally, I use a Mossy 590 and a Glock 17.

[FN74]

Hey Oracle, good to see you here! I just signed up.... Sorry to hijack the thread...

[280PLUS]

but i like 20 gauge instead of 12, not so much blast.

if you are talking exclusively in the house i suggest the YOUTH CUT ,,, the barrel is only 20" and the stock is shortened, it is lighter and much more manuverable (wow, i can't believe i spelled that) in close quarters. also easier for momma to handle if she needs to

i think i paid $169 plus tax for mine

i also suggest birdshot for overpenetration issues, at the short distances involved with shooting in your house, birdshot will have hardly begun to spread and will act more like a slug, this is why i think 12 ga is probably overkill but i'm sure we could all argue about that for a while, you may consider a couple of #4 rounds in the magazine first so if the birdshot dont drop em, you got a little more in store for a follow up if you need it, aim for just below the breastbone

oh, lastly, i understand the most feared sound amongst the criminal element is the sound of a pump action shotgun being racked up, which in itself is quite a deterrent

but lets not forget the lady who chose the .357 cause the guy was in the kitchen and she didn't want to tear up the new counters with the shotgun...

a yappy dog will go pretty far too (about 60 yards if you punt them right) (just kidding, just kidding)

:D

[Snowdog]

With my Mossberg 500A and S&B 00B, I believe the firearm would only discharge once before 911 gets a call (unless others that may be involved don't get the not-too-subtle hint).

I have full confidence that a 12ga with the proper loads and responsible training will defuse just about any home-invasion situation.

I've always had a special respect for buckshot.

http://www.remington.com/images/ammo/hevishot_buckshot_big.jpg

[45King]

What glockten said. I keep a Winchester M94 Trapper AE loaded with Blazer 200 gr. HP .45 Colt at my bedside. My 1991A1 is there to back it up.

[12GA]

<------------ with buck shot. :D

[Hazwaste]

I keep a selection readily available next to the bed. 20 gauge w/ #3 buck, AK clone w/ two 30 round mags, Kel-Tec P11, and Taurus .357 mag snubby for wife for her defense of our downstairs bedroom (Alamo).

When we've had "things that go bump in the night" I've usually gone for the AK. The shotgun only holds 5+1, and it seems that home invasions over the past few months have involved three or more bad guys. I don't want to be outgunned.

Oh, I forgot, my 13 year old son keeps a Henry lever action .22 w/ 17 rounds upstairs in his bedroom. He's under orders to grab it and his sister, escape out the window, and go to the neighbors' house if he hears gunfighting downstairs.

In short, I like a carbine for home defense. It's also good to have a plan for escape. Much the same as having a plan in case of fire.

[Quantrill]

12 Guage, #4 Buck Quantrill

[cslinger]

Were we seperated at birth or what. 1st we agree on the SIG 220 and now the 870 Marine Magnum.

I am of the different tools for different jobs kind of mindset. I have a carbine with loaded mags ready to go. I have a shotgun with 6 rounds of 00 buck ready to go. I most likely have a handgun on me or very near by.

So that being said. If I hear a suspicious noise but chances are it is from a benign source then it is the handgun.

If I am reasonably sure it is a bad guy then it is the shotgun.

If it sounds like multiple people breaking down the front door then it is the AK/AR and 30 round magazines.

If I could only have one for all around home defense it would be my Marine Magnum hands down. There is just so much versatility of what you can shoot not to mention good capacity, sheer power and the psychological effect of having to stare down the barrel of a 12 gauge. No matter how dangerous an AR15 is, you are still just looking down the barrel of an over glorified .22.

Chris

[TRIDENT]

12 guage results in spagetti sauce inside a house. Not good to be on the receiving end of a heavy goose load inside of 25 yards. Not good at all.

[Edward429451]

a .223 carbine as a perfect home defense gun. It is a rifle caliber so it has a lot of knockdown power.

This is highly debateable. I've read reports that our military guys have to shoot guys 3 or 4 times to get them to drop. Consider carefully...



I think shotguns have better stopping power. But beyond 25yds I'd go with a carbine type weapon.

This makes perfect sense, but is 25 yds home defense? Maybe if you have an 8000 sq ft house!

I like 223's, I have 3 of em. But if a HD situation cropped up I'm grabbing the Remmy 870.

280plus makes good point on the 20 ga youth model. We got one of those too and its most excellant. BTW 280, my 870 12 with police trade in barrel and factory stock is ever so slightly shorter than the 20 ga youth...:D

[gharsh]

I agree with all the shotgun votes. I have an 870 also and am looking at putting the extended magazine and shorter barrel on it to use as a home defense gun. I'd refit to go hunting. Too much versatility with a pump gun to go with something else. Not to discount the handgun, but I feel the shotgun is a much better choice; especially if you get a pump. As has been said, just the sound might be enough to stop an intruder in his/her tracks.

[B Coyote]

This is highly debateable. I've read reports that our military guys have to shoot guys 3 or 4 times to get them to drop. Consider carefully...

These reports are usually because of:

1. Use of the M855 (62grain) 5.56mm load in the M4 Carbine at ranges in excess of 100 meters.

2. See No. 1.

The M855 is slower than the older 55 grain M193, so it reaches the 2600 to 2700fps fragmentation window much quicker. Add in the 14.5" barrel into the equation and you have a much less effective round. In the 20" M16A2 and M249 SAW, the round works as it was intended to. THIS (http://www.ammo-oracle.com/) is the best site I've ever seen regarding 5.56mm/.223 ammo questions. Enjoy the read.

I'm a 5.56mm carbine guy. I like the way the carbine handles, points, carries and shoots. I also live in an apartment, so it's going to be a secondary weapon. A handgun is much handier in the confines of my dwelling. If for some reason I NEED a long gun, it's the Bushmaster I reach for.

YMMV,
bc:)

[cordex]

I'm in the carbine camp. I keep an AR with 20 rounds next to the bed. I figure 20 cartridges can get me across the room to the ammo can with the rest of the mags.

Wouldn't feel undergunned with a shotgun, though.

Whichever you are more comfortable with.

[MLH]

Welcome to THR! Feel free to join in the conversation. These other guys are too busy yapping to say hello so I'll say it for them. I think you'll enjoy this place. Lots of good folks and good advice. :scrutiny: :D

[Penforhire]

It is an interesting comparison, even knowing reports like Olympic's are biased. I suppose the best of both worlds would be an o/u combo gun. How about a 12 ga upper and 223 (or pistol caliber) lower? The 12 should stop 'em and the 223 is there for extra ammo, without having to switch weapons, only triggers.

[Skunkabilly]

No .223 carbine for me. Between my M1A Scout and my Benelli, I guess I'd grab the Benelli :D

[chaim]

Most of the people that have conducted such tests have been people who are selling .223 carbines As I recall the original tests were FBI, and they aren't selling anything. Yes many more have been done by those companies but the results are pretty consistent with each other and other independent tests- doesn't sound like doctored and falsified results to me.

As far as the TFL thread, I remember it very well. Shooting through nothing into wall materials to see if a bullet will penatrate, especially with no control (i.e. shooting 12ga at it to see the same), proves nothing. Any projectile powerful enough to kill a man, be it .223, .45acp, 12ga or even .22lr, is easily going to penatrate sheet rock, plaster board, whatever, with little or no problem. The overpenatration I'm more worried about is the likelihood that it might go through walls and into other people after going through the body of the invader.

There's another option: a semi-auto or lever rifle in a handgun caliber. Well, Glockten, I'd agree that those make wonderful home defense weapons, but I don't think they are quite as good as either a .223 or a 12ga. Even in a long-gun they won't have the stopping power of the shotgun or real rifle round and some of these pistol rounds (.357 and .44mag for instance) have real overpenatration issues out of a handgun, add a foot or more to the barrel length and get the resulting velocity increases and well... In the auto calibers the longer barrel gives no stopping power advantage (velocities seem very close to handgun velocities) but there still are the other long gun advantages (accuracy under stress).

I do have a Hi-Point carbine (no laughing please) and I intend to buy a .357 or .44 lever rifle and I'd be more than willing to use those from time to time or as a stop gap if I get the lever gun before the .223 or 12ga but I don't consider them ideal- just good.

I think that it's pretty much 6 of one, half-dozen of the other. Oracle, I think you are probably right, and I'll probably switch from one to the other and switch camps once or twice a year because the advantages of one v. the other are so close.

and the psychological effect of having to stare down the barrel of a 12 gauge. No matter how dangerous an AR15 is, you are still just looking down the barrel of an over glorified .22.
Good point. It is a bad idea to bring out a gun to try to intimidate (potential legal issues if you didn't quite need deadly force, and if you do need deadly force and you hesitate because you are hoping they'll stop you might get killed). However, if just taking out the gun does stop the threat and they have a movement in their pants all the better. The 12ga would have a bigger psychological effect than just about anything (what caliber would 12ga translate to, about .70 or so?).


a .223 carbine as a perfect home defense gun. It is a rifle caliber so it has a lot of knockdown power.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



This is highly debateable. I've read reports that our military guys have to shoot guys 3 or 4 times to get them to drop. Consider carefully...

Well, there are a few issues here. First, as already mentioned, this is with one specific type of ammo and at very long ranges. At shorter ranges the .223/5.56 can put a man down quite fast. As a general use military round the 5.56 is somewhat controverial and there are arguements both ways, for police or self defense use (urban use) the .223/5.56 is very effective.

Also, remember this is a gun not a death ray. Back in WWI and WWII plenty of people survived and even stayed in action after being hit with the 8mm Mauser, .303, 30-06 and 7.62x54R that were the primary infantry calibers of the time. I know of one local shooting where the bad guy had to be hit multiple times with both a 12ga and a .45acp before he went down. There are many factors, not only caliber, that go into whether or not a particular person being hit will go down right away or not.


FN74

Welcome to THR!

[mons meg]

Look, guys, there's room for compromise here. The 12 gauge is for defending your home from the inside, while the .223 is good for defending your home from the outside.

Just be sure to cut back the trees in a 300 meter or so radius to make a good kill zone. :D

Seriously, though, I don't understand why there is any debate over over-penetration between these two weapon types...

[chaim]

Seriously, though, I don't understand why there is any debate over over-penetration between these two weapon types... Another very good point considering that both, with proper ammo selection (i.e. birdshot or maybe very lightweight buck for the shotgun), have virtually no overpenatration problems.

[Nightcrawler]

The overpenatration I'm more worried about is the likelihood that it might go through walls and into other people after going through the body of the invader.

So you've never considered the possibility that you might miss?

[chaim]

So you've never considered the possibility that you might miss? Um, like I said in the post you responded to, if you miss it doesn't really matter what you are using since even .22lr will go through wall board, insulation and aluminum siding. If a round powerful enough to drop a person (including shotgun buck and bird shot) misses it will go through most construction materials used today (except brick, maybe). The only way to prevent penatration through walls if you miss is to set up backstops behind likely and preplanned fields of fire (lots of books and magazines are useful for this).

[Nightcrawler]

Actually, Chaim, I have personally witnessed a shotgun discharge into a plaster/drywall wall, birdshot, at a range of about 5 feet. Made a large, unpleasant hole in the near side of the wall, but it didn't go clean through.

Hence that's what I keep in my HD shotgun.

[CMichael]

Shotgun. I like that it's so versatile.

It's good for short distance and for longer distance you can use a slug.

[280PLUS]

:D

just when i thought i had the best gun,,,

what i really like is shooting skeet with it , it really frosts some of the guys when i outshoot them and their pricey shotguns with it

its a pretty fast gun and i was doing pretty good at the doubles with it when i was shooting clay

the stock is a little short for me though...

it also makes shooting them with a 12 ga seem like a joke cause you got so much more leeway with it than the 20.

if you want to get good at birds, use a smaller ga shotgun when you practice

:D

[Edward429451]

I know just what you mean 280! When I took them kids up skeet shootin with the youth 20, I was splainin to em how they'd have to get on it quick cause in no time them birds'd be out of range for a 20. They showed me! They was hittin them birds way out past what I thought would be 20 ga range. Blew my mind. My one son even picked up a double with a first shot miss, could've been a triple.:D I was wrong, but I was proud. Know what I mean?:D

(I'm sure them Remchokes helped on the short barrel.)

20 Ga. is extreemly viable as an option.

[Trisha]

I'm a shotgun girl, and so is Susan:
We've been having a bit of trouble with a prowler/stalker the last couple months, and when we react, it's with both of us in our favorite shoulder rigs and one of us with the HK FP-6 and the other with the Coach Gun.
The Coach Gun is only two shots, true - but it's a devastating close-range defensive weapon with 00buck (and it should flush any surviving goblin my way); and Susan will clean up with her pet .45acp.
The FP-6 is point-of-aim accurate with slugs to 50 yards (a basic part of monthly training is tac drills/transition shots at that distance), and I carry two reloads each of slug and buck.
Hon, a real part of defensive tactics is the psychological factor - and a shotgun ably weilded is a final and resolute statement to deter/end any aggression in my opinion.
The .223 enters the equation for us as a longer-range defensive firearm - but when it's time to strike decisively at distance, make ours DSA'a SA-58 carbines (.308), for we are focused only on terminating a threat, not wounding. . .

Trisha

[Nightcrawler]

but when it's time to strike decisively at distance, make ours DSA'a SA-58 carbines (.308), for we are focused only on terminating a threat, not wounding. . .

Hell yeah! :D

Women of such discriminating taste are indeed a rarity in our society today.

[Erik]

Make mine a Remington 870 please, the close quarters trump card of choice for so many for so long, and with good reason too.

[Browns Fan]

Quote:
Now, I'm not totally there but I'm leaning towards a .223 carbine as a perfect home defense gun. It is a rifle caliber so it has a lot of knockdown power. The .223 is a very well designed round for urban fighting so they actually have proven in testing to have less overpenatration than many handgun rounds.


A lot of knockdown power? If you have read "Blackhawk Down" (I am almost finished reading it for the 2nd time) at least one of the Delta operatives in the Battle of Mogadishu were cursing the .223 (or 5.56, whatever...) for it's lack of knockdown power. After seeing Somalis walk/crawl away after being shot, sometimes with multiple hits, he said he wished for a 7.62.

[B Coyote]

I've read Blackhawk Down, as well....twice.

How much ya wanna bet the Delta Operators were doing the following two things:

1. Using the M855 (62grain) 5.56mm load in the M4 Carbine at ranges in excess of 100 meters.

2. See No. 1.

Oh, FWIW, the 7.62NATO round isn't perfect either. I don't have the book in front of me, but I recall seeing somewhere the 7.62's would occasionally fail to stop.

bc:)

[J-Man]

I'm all for the shotgun for home defense.

Shotgun= cheaper than an AR.
12 guage ammo= cheaper (unless you don't know how to shop).
Recoil= more (practice and this becomes a non-issue).
Versatility= way better (I like to keep the first round in my Mossberg rubber buck. Looks better in court that you used a "non-lethal" round first).
Reliability= better with a good pump and they are easier to clean to boot. Shoot, most pumps function perfectly with nearly any amount of gook in them!
Intimidation= an AR is mean but in the dark who's gonna see? Hear a rack from a 12 guage and a grown man will pee his pants.
Image= in court a shotgun will appear less evil than an "assualt rifle".

BUT, just use what you are most comfortable with (AFTER extensive practice with both). The .223 has its place but for home defense a shotgun as primary and a good handgun as secondary can't be beat.
;)

[Gewehr98]

http://mauser98.com/870trenchsmall.jpg

[Edward429451]

(I like to keep the first round in my Mossberg rubber buck. Looks better in court that you used a "non-lethal" round first).

Interesting theory...possibly tactically unsound, but interesting nontheless. Consider that we use guns for defense 'When in fear for your life or grave bodily harm' . The DA could twist your desire to not kill anyone into a proclamation that you weren't in fear for your life at all, hence used a firearm prematurely and illegally in the face of such altercation, which obviously was not a real life & death scenario or you would've used real ammo.

Kinda thin maybe. I'm no lawyer. But the potential is there for a smart shark I think. I'm gonna keep real ammo in my guns though b/c I'd only ever pull a gun if I was really in fear of death or grave bodily harm to me or my charge(s), and if that turns out to be the case, that they force me to pull a real gun to protect me & mine, I can't afford to take the chance to give them a break after they already forced my hand. I am not the military. I am a family man and as such can afford NO casualties to mine.

FWIW.:scrutiny: :)

[capt_happypants]

B Coyote, I suspect that Delta was using Colt Commandos with 11.5" bbls, which has a maximum lethal range of under 20 yards with '855.

FWIW, understand the advantages and disadvantages of shotguns vs ARs.

Shotgun Advantages:
Delivers a massive payload.
Wide variety of shot options
Intimidation factor
*Can* have less overpenetration danger (load choice is critical)

Shotgun Disadvantages:
Unwieldy to maneuver in closed spaces
Heavy recoil
Slow to reload
Difficult to diagnose and clear jams under stress

AR Advantages:
Lightweight
Better suited for close quarters work
Holds up to 30 rounds
Light recoil
Quick to reload
Excellent terminal performance (hint: M193 55gr FMJ)

AR Disadvantages:
High danger of overpenetration (very dependent on load choice/bbl length)
Requires regular maintenance for reliable functioning
Requires more range time to become familiar
*Can* jam easily
Possible legal consequences

It's all about trade-offs. I've shot ARs and shotguns in competitions, and I feel more confident in my AR as a defensive weapon than a shotgun. I accept the risks to myself and my neighbors. Research the subject and determine which system is best for you.

And for Trish's would-be stalker... you have NO idea who you are messing with, and just how much firepower resides up there.

[CZ-100]

12 Gauge Defiantly...

Gewehr98 Nice touch with the Bayonet :what:

[benewton]

Like my AR, and did my time with the A1.
Comfortable, old shoes feeling....

But I like my old A5 too, and at homestead ranges, roughly 30 yards or less, I also like big and slow against small and fast.

I've an 870 on the (much delayed) buy list, though I'll probably stick with the 2- 3/4 round, 'cause it's much more easily moved than the A5, and, of course, I've not been able to lay hands on a 18-20" barrel for the old weapon.

And the USPc is always at hand.

If I have to do a rifle, though, the "back door" weapon is one of those cheap Chinese AK's. 30 rounds, over twice as heavy as an AR's, and while the weapon's accuracy sucks at 100 yards, at 21 feet, with a red dot, how much accuracy do you need? Besides, it goes bang every time regardless!

[longeyes]

I recently promoted my Mini-14 to bedroom duty but that was less for home defense than for deployment in case of "homeland security" issues. Normally, I rely on a couple of Mossy 500s I alternate (one's 12ga, one's 20ga), both loaded with buck, and two handguns, my old trusty Colt Lawman Mk III loaded with 158g .38spls and a Glock, usually my G30 loaded with Cor-Bon 165g Pow'rBall. I think between carbine and scattergun the shotgun is the better home defense choice: safer for you and yours, more dangerous for them and theirs.

[12.7x99mm]

study balistic tests on both calibers and decide for your self. Make sure you see photos of what each of them do. Its pretty cut and dry which one most people would pick

[firestar]

A Mini-14 or a AR-15 will hold 20-30 rounds which is a lot better than 4-7 out of a 12 gauge. I have neighbors so a .223 or any rifle round is out. I don't want to shoot through too many walls!

I keep a Beretta 92 with a 15+1 capacity for home defense. If I went bigger, it would be my 870 with #4 shot.

[Bonker]

Edward is right. If you shoot, you'd better shoot to kill on every shot.


"with bird you lose a lot of stopping power"

Can't disagree more. Birshot is devastating at close range. I think it hits harder than buckshot personally. Ever heard of the "jackhammer effect"?

The .223 is an awesome manstopper. I've taken large deer with 12ga and with .223 and the wounds are about the same size. Both drop the deer very quickly. The .223 probably stops them slightly faster.

I've been considering paying the tax to get a Krinkov made for home defense but I'm not sure if I could handle the blast from a 7.62x39 round. I fired an AK indoors once without hearing protection and it knocked me loopy for at least a full minute.
So I'm also considering paying for a silenced .45ACP.
I wish someone made a 45 acp that held about 20 rounds :)

My 357 GP-100 certainly feels fine for now when things go bump in the night.

[HS/LD]

Having shot a feral pig (about 300lbs) with both .223 and 2 3/4" 9 pellet 00 Buck...

I use a 12 gauge.

Winchester Defender 1300 $239
18" barrel
2 3/4" magnum 00 buck (12 pellets)
8 shot capacity
Surefire forearm $174
6 shot side saddle $32
6 shot but cuff $16

Thats 20 12 guage shells and a flash light in one easily portable package.

Back it up with an H&K USP Compact .40

Regards,
HS/LD

[Fed168]

Either way you cut it, the shotgun is gonna penetrate more than a .223. I like the .223 for close in work, but would not hesitate to use a shotgun. I keep my HD load as birdshot. My second choice would be a BB load. At the distances we are talking about, those rounds work quite well.

[Solinvictus70]

Can you imagine the shred factor with a close in blast of #6 shot? Geez, the trauma of the wounds seems like it would be enough to kill.

[sw442642]

Having trained with a defensive shotgun and AR, I go for the latter. My reasons - easier to shoot, more rounds, stopping power is a tossup. I do have both loaded and regard the shotgun as backup.

As far as the legal issues - since GT is down, there was a heavily debate thread on this. Some folks think this is a false worry. Others think there is precedent to worry. From reading it, I think your best defense is to be perfectly clear about when to use a gun. It is an a screwed up situation where you weren't clearly in the right, that being a commando might look bad.

I also think that if you use a shotgun for defensive use, you need to train a bit with it. If you can't take a course, shoot an IDPA side match. It isn't that easy to manoveur with one of these things. It's easy to talk but you should try it. Do you practice clearance drills with your long arm? Pieing?

[Blain]

Nothing is comes close to rivaling a shotgun for close quarters combat.

Only thing you may want to consider is what to do if you are facing BGs with heavy body armor (like a SWAT team come to take your guns). In which case a 12 gauge would still be effective if you shot them either;

1. In the head
2. In the side: to the ribs, underneath the armpit, or to the uperarm/shoulder
3. In the Neck
4. In the body with an armor piercing slug like a copper solid or a 3" brenneke.

[Edward429451]

Only thing you may want to consider is what to do if you are facing BGs with heavy body armor (like a SWAT team come to take your guns).

Hmmm. If you're lucky enough to have any time to prepare before they do the dynamic entry in this case, I think it would be time to forgo the shotgun and break out the M1A's or /06's for the penetrative qualities. Sure a SG will get the first one, but the tactic is to get 4 or 5 guys in real quick with the MP5's and dust you. Sure, you get the first one, but the other 4 get you. If you start slingin 308's at em' you over penetrate and get more than one per shot. You pretty much gotta hold em in the kill zone at the door if you want even a half a chance.

Sometimes I think that 223's may be best employed with supressive fire in mind. Gives the SG'ers and M1A'ers time to work. Still chewin on that one. Flak vests for the flash bangs?

But for plain old run of the mill BG's, SG.

[Blain]

I don't know, I was thinking if a SWAT team busted through the front door, and I was aware of it, I was thinking about swooping down the 2nd story bedrom window (have a little awning there so the jump is not bad) and go through the front door behind them.

I do not think standing toe to toe with the SWAT team is a smart idea. Either try to surprise them through manuvering around them, or hiding from them and jumping out in surprise.

Or better yet, see if you can't sneak out of the house and start launching .308 fire at them while their still inside!

[Edward429451]

They always cover all sides of a home before giving the green light for entry. Bad idea to jump out a window. Dead man.

Going toe to toe with a SWAT team is NOT a good idea! But they chose to bring it to you, you didnt call em in! Best to have clever aces up sleeve to slow em down. Best not detailed on internet.:D

[Smoke]

Maybe I’m biased, uneducated or just stupid…..

I’ll never understand the choice for a .223 over a shotgun for home defense.

Over penetration? How far will that .223 go vs. 00 buck if your shot goes through a window? Under penetration of .223 rounds is very dependent on round choice and barrel length. I have an old house; I’ve done the test.

Temporary Cavity/Permanent Cavity? And your choice is?

9/13 .32cal pellets vs. one higher velocity .223?

Margin of error in aiming while geeked up?

Ease of Use? What’s easier than a pump shotgun?

Maneuverability? My 870 is no longer than my DMS profile AR

Stopping Power? A mythical measurement of firearms effectiveness. Stop it with “Stopping Power” already.

7 rounds in the tube is more than enough for home defense when backed up with a side arm. Give me examples of home invasions with more than 3-4 people. (post links please, or cite references) …and another thing….can anyone give me examples of a home invasion where the BG’s wore armor?

Smoke

[cslinger]

If you go toe to toe with any Swat team or reasonably large force of PD you are going to die....period.

You are not talking about an entry team of 4-6 guys. You are talking about the perimeter officers and all the other ancillary incident people. Not to mention the fact that if it all goes bad they have radios to call similarly minded and armed individuals.

Now if you decide you want to fight and die for RKBA that is your business and everybody will make that decision personally but make no mistakes about it you will die in the process.

May not be a popular thing to say or what people want to hear but thems is the facts. So unless you have an escape tunnel that exits out a few blocks away you are pretty much screwed should the local PD/Military decide you need to be brought in.

Chris

[Blain]

But personally, I would think it would be easier to kill one or two parameter guards guarding, say, one of the back doors and escape, rather than facing the full SWAT team + the extra officers out in the front.

Much like Captian Kirk in Star Trek II, I don't believe in the "no win" scenario. There is always a chance, depending on how clever, smart, determined, and just plain ruthless you are.

[Edward429451]

Oh I never said you wouldn't die against the gun grabbers. But to go down swinging is better than laying down to be raped. Of course they'll kill me. Thats no good reason to make it easy for them. Sure, I'll get 1 or 2 or maybe even 4 or 5 if I'm having a good day, then they'll kill me. Any volunteers on who's first through my door?:evil:

Oh my god, they'll kill me, I better give up and beg for mercy.:rolleyes:

Fat chance. Good thing our forfathers didn't hold the same views as you do or we'd all still be speaking english...

With all due respect, officer. :D

There is always a chance, depending on how clever, smart, determined, and just plain ruthless you are.

Well said. I'd add faith also.

[45R]

For HD go with a Shotgun unless you home extends out to 100 yards. Then its not home defense your worried about. Its trass passing.

[Kinsman]

Home Defense Issues:

Inside the home, a shorty 12ga. Almost any load is deadly.
Outside, the .223 I allus figured to use....but now that I
got my M1a, I'll probably reach for it instead. Ruger p90
goes everywhere.

Fighting JBTs

I'll take my chances in court.

[casual]

mons meg nailed it

20" barrel 12 gauge inside the home

keep the ar (preferably in .308) handy for longer-range threats outside


casual

[HankB]

Overpenetration: Most homes have sheetrock interior walls. At close range - like inside a house - even birdshot will blow right through. As will a .223. Or even a .22 rimfire. Face it, anything you're likely to use will overpentrate, unless you cut the power of your load so low it won't work when it has to.

Shotgun terminal performance: at point blank range, buckshot is good, as is large birdshot. (think turkey loads.)

.223 terminal performance: who says you're limited to FMJ for home defense? Why not use a softpoint? Or if you want to be ready for anything, alternate SS109 with softpoints in the magazine, and practice double taps.

Frankly, I think any serious caliber will get the job done. My personal 1st choice would be a short, silenced SMG, but given the going price and the hoops I'd have to jump through to get one & be legal, I have to settle for something else. For "inside" I have a handgun ready, as most rifles and shotguns are too long and bulky to be ideal for my situation.

[Russ]

Shotgun. The noise as you rack the slide should scare most people away unless they are deaf or really stupid.

[Blain]

Good thing our forfathers didn't hold the same views as you do or we'd all still be speaking english...

Samw views as me???? :confused:

[cslinger]

Pretty sure he was talking about me.

Chris.

And Kirk cheated if I remember correctly. Rewrote the program or something. ...........course I am not saying that is a a bad thing adapt and overcome and all that.:D

[HS/LD]

Don't bust me for the stats but doesn't the Justice Dept say something like... overall if you are shot you basically have a:

70% chance of surving a handgun round.
30% chance of surving a rifle round.
1% chance of surving a shotgun BLAST. (regardless of gauge or shot in their studies)

Seems that if this is even close to true....
the shotgun takes top honors as the HD weapon of choice

HS/LD

[Blain]

And Kirk cheated if I remember correctly.


Who ever said I planned on playing it fair? :D :cool:

[Edward429451]

Umm, sorry Blain. That was directed towards cslinger and not you. We've since conversed via PM and I realized I misunderstood the tone of his post. He was merely making clear to all that you prolly will die in a scenario like that. Being the passionate issue that it is, I thought I saw him on the other side of the fence and ran with it. :rolleyes: Apologies if warranted.:o :D

Back on topic. Get em both. A 12 and a 223. :D
If I lived on a chunk of land I'd prolly use a rifle though. Just preplan safe/fire zones with the fam. I think everybody should walk the property in&out with the presupposition of a beseigement or invasion and look with a critical eye on where the foes would be likely to take cover or concealment from you. Might give rise to some ideas...Nuff said.

[mussi]

12 gauge keeps perps away from your house, a rifle away from your front porch.

[Quintin Likely]

Prosecuting attorneys would love the idea that someone used an evil, people killing, black, tactical, semi automatic machine assault rifle to defend themselves against his innocent client.

A pump shotgun has the intimidation factor...ain't no worse sound anyone could hear in a dark house than a slide racking on a shotgun. And, if that didn't work, a shotgun, even with birdshot, has the bite to back up that bark at in-your-house ranges. And I think a shotgun would look more like an "average Joe Schmoe blue collar" kinda weapon to the courts.

My .02

[B Coyote]

A pump shotgun has the intimidation factor...

The rifle also has it's own intimidation factor. Ask the goblin who came knocking on my door one night, looking for my apartment's previous resident.

I wish I had a photo of that guy's face.:what:

bc:)

[Quintin Likely]

The rifle also has it's own intimidation factor. Ask the goblin who came knocking on my door one night, looking for my apartment's previous resident.

You answer the door with a rifle?

<note to self: Don't go to this guy's house unannounced> ;)

[Blain]

the Justice Dept say something like... overall if you are shot you basically have a:

70% chance of surving a handgun round.
30% chance of surving a rifle round.
1% chance of surving a shotgun BLAST. (regardless of gauge or shot in their studies)


Case closed. :D

[B Coyote]

Okay, I'll give you story behind WHY I answered the door with my rifle.

For the first two years we lived in this apartment, people would come a'knockin' at strange hours of the night. When I say knock, I mean pounding, kicking and shaking the door....demanding to be allowed entry. Knocking was usually accompanied with "I know you in there and I want my money." {expletives deleted by me}

This particular knock was accompanied with the threat of entry through our balcony. We live on the second floor and if you know the trick, you can climb onto the balcony. No, I'll not give away the secret.

Well, I'd already called the police by this time...and I knew he'd make it into the apartment before they got here. So, I figured "what the hell....". I told him to keep his pants on, I was getting dressed. I should mention this occurred at just after 3am.

I chambered a round in the Bushy, clicked the Aimpoint on....and flipped the dead bolt, stepping back so he'd open the door. Sure enough, he did. So, there's me in my boxers with a REALLY big rifle trained on his chest. His eyes did a :what: and he backed up. I told him the person he's looking for doesn't live here and that he'd be smart not to return. He agreed, and we haven't had any problems since. Amazing coincedence.

The police finally arrived and the officer was really cool....and confirmed my belief the apartment's previous resident was a drug dealer.

FWIW, we hope to move by the end of this year...if all goes as planned with our finances. :) I can't wait....this apartment complex it simply too ghetto for my liking.

bc:)

[Blain]

The nerve of some people. :fire: :cuss:

[280PLUS]

i had a real drunk nutjob banging on my door one night, not having a gun at the time i grabbed the next best thing (?) a ball peen hammer.

he's screaming "let me in or i'll break this door down!"

my calm reply, in a voice only he could hear, "you do and you'll die"

he changed his mind and went away quietly

about 2 weeks later the FBI swarms his place and hauls him away on murder 1 charges...

:what:

can you say, "close shave?"

:D

[Byron Quick]

about 2 weeks later the FBI swarms his place and hauls him away on murder 1 charges...

Why were the feds involved in this...that's a state charge?

I live in a brick house. The side of the house that has entrance doors does not have windows. The side of the neighbor's house adjoining is brick and does not have windows or doors facing my house.

I have shot the brick wall of a burned house with .223 at the same spot from a distance of fifty yards...20 rounds-none penetrated.

I've seen a wild boar shot with 00B...none penetrated his gristle plate...slugs killed him. On the other hand, people don't have a gristle plate though some wear armor. There have been some home invasions from non SWAT/police wearing armor.

I'm going with my Mossberg 590...20 inch barrel and a couple of bandoliers of shells...one buckshot...one slug.

[yucapote]

Bad Guy: "argghhhhhhh, I feel numb, where does the shotgun blast came from?!?!?!"

I: "Checkmate Fool"

[benEzra]

The .223 carbine for me--a Ruger mini-14 with Choate pistol grip stock, slightly shortened. I use light JHPs (Federal 40-gr) rather than FMJs to prevent overpenetration and reduce the risk of multiple wall penetration.

[280PLUS]

"why were the feds involved?"

i think he did the deed in another state and i believe (but i'm not sure) that once you cross a state line the feds get involved?

i wasn't privvy to all the details, i was just glad the (expletive deleted) was gone

besides, the neighbors told me it was the feds, i wasnt actually there, so,,,

[Waitone]

I recently read a report pertaining to tactics used in house clearing in Gulf II. Seems both Army and Marines did the entry thingy with everyone sporting skinny barrels.

Evidently there was a problem with getting the bad guy first when using skinny barrles. Shortly thereafter the call went out for 12 ga fat barrels. Don't know anything about the load. I just thought it interesting how fast they adapted to reality when reality and training didn't match.

[280PLUS]

m

[Blain]

I recently read a report pertaining to tactics used in house clearing in Gulf II.

Would you happen to have a link or pitureo this report? I sure would like to see/read it! It's funny if true that reality quickly showed that the 12 gauge is superior close quarters weapon than any carbine!

[E357]

If I can wear Kevlar and body armor when house cleaning with 4 other guys, I'll take a 12 guage. If I have to hide behind something solid and shoot at who knows where or what at close range - I'll take my 357 or 45. Of course responding to a known threat at the front door the "rack" is usually the end of the encounter.

Elliot

[Moparmike]

Yowser. Yall certainly seem to have a great deal of need for all those massive amounts of firearms. Dont get me wrong, I like firearms. I just havent encountered the need to have 4 of them at my bedside.

Personally, I would prefer a 12-gauge tactical. Maybe a mag extension as well.

Thus concludes my first post :).

Yall have a good one.