Transfer Fee Increase


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Ala Dan
February 17, 2007, 11:10 PM
Greeting's All- Per Clay Simmons, CEO Simmons Sporting Goods
2001 2nd Avenue North Bessemer, AL 35020 PX: (205) 425-4720

In keeping pace with todays society, Simmons Sporting Goods
of Bessemer, AL announces a new price increase on all tranfers.
Effective 19 February 2007 the price of all tranfers will be a flat

$50

For a long time, we have held this fee steady at only $25; but the need
has come for this slight increase. We hope that our patrons will certainly
understand, and many thanks for your co-operation.

If you enjoyed reading about "Transfer Fee Increase" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
zoom6zoom
February 17, 2007, 11:19 PM
Doubling the price is a slight increase?

GreenFurniture
February 17, 2007, 11:23 PM
Good for them!

Far too many "customers" take advantage of an FFL by abusing the ability to transfer out of courtesy.

I wish more brick and mortar FFLs would take this stance.

bogie
February 17, 2007, 11:25 PM
Heck, doing all the crap, and keeping track of the paperwork involved... I'm surprised you stayed at $25 as long as you did...

Ala Dan
February 17, 2007, 11:40 PM
Yep, zoom6zoom My Friend-

$25 is a slight increase considering the fact that someone might have a
$1600 Weatherby MK-V transferred into our shop. Heck fire, most shops
have had a $50 flat rate transfer fee for as long as I can remember~!;)

CU74
February 18, 2007, 12:12 AM
Check around with your local pawn shops. Many of them will charge less than gun shops for FFL transfers. I found one who only charges me $15.

Rotty
February 18, 2007, 12:27 AM
WOW, considering the paperwork only takes about 5 minutes, the forms are free....thats $10 per minute, wish i could work at a job and get paid that much.

Hemicuda
February 18, 2007, 12:31 AM
DANG... my local FFL charges me $10.00 for transfers... I think I'll give him my firstborn and my sister as thanks...

Ala Dan... I can understand the increase in price, but it is INSULTING to refer to a doubling of price as a "minor increase"...

look at it this way... you price out a new pickup, optioned the way you want it... 4 full doors, 4X4, diesel engine, CD changer, bedliner, and all the goodies... it is $32,432.21... kinda pricey, but you and the family are worth it, so you go to order it...

when it arrives, the salesman informs you of a SLIGHT price increase... to a MERE $64,864.42... still worth it?

the numbers there are HUGE, but are the same PERCENTAGE of original...

it is NOT the increase or the % of increase that is the problem foir me... it is the flippant reference to the doubling of price as "minor"... afterall, most of us work hard for our money!

GreenFurniture
February 18, 2007, 12:39 AM
WOW, considering the paperwork only takes about 5 minutes,

Actually it takes an average of 20 minutes to conduct a 4473 transaction.

the forms are free....

And someone has to get paid to order them and receive them and then stock them. Then file them.

Someone has to get paid to:

Send out the FFL.

Accept the package.

Inspect the package.

Log weapon in the Bound Book.

Assist you with your 4473.

Submit your information on the 4473 to NICS.

Complete your transaction.

Ring you up.

File your 4473.

Log out the weapon.

And that is before you take into account that someone had to pay the BATFE for the FFL, pay for insurance, pay rent, utilities, taxes and so on.

thats $10 per minute, wish i could work at a job and get paid that much.

You must be a union guy.

22-rimfire
February 18, 2007, 12:40 AM
I think $50 is too much. I could perhaps see a $10 increase in your case. You charge your regular customers this or just new customers?? Anyway, at $50, I would probably shop elsewhere for all purchases if the dealer wanted $50 and some do... and so I don't buy anything from them.

wooderson
February 18, 2007, 12:42 AM
20 minutes for a 4473? Not in Texas (except for Cabela's, where I think they've got a family of semi-trained chimps in back running the forms).

I don't blame anyone for charging as much as they can for transfers. It's too easy to go in, fondle what you like, order it online and get it delivered, cutting out the shop owner completely. I'd make it a two-stage deal, though - $50 for a new gun, $15-25 for a used gun or something the dealer just can't get.

If someone else is willing to go cheaper, that's their right (and good for you for finding them), but being a gun store looks like a tough enough battle to me without cutting your own throat on transfers.

thumper723
February 18, 2007, 12:55 AM
Here is my take on it..

The shop provides a service for a fee... That's fine.

But here is the thing I noticed, when I lived in a smaller town. (I don't know where this shop is).

The local shop was stupid expesive. They were "cutting you a deal" if they sold it to you for $20 less than MSRP. Nothing was ever in stock outside the most common stuff..

So a lot of guys started ordering stuff online, and getting it shipped there. Transfers were $20. Still was cheaper. And just as fast, since nothing was in stock. Then they upped it to $60. YES $60. Well, that made buying from them the same as paying the outrageous fee.

While it was a free market, it sucked for those of us there. Most of us just drove an hour to a better stocked store in the city after that..

So now, instead of making $20 per gun, he made $0.

Monkeybear
February 18, 2007, 12:59 AM
For the guy transfering a $1600 rifle its a slight increase. For the guy buying a Taurus of off Gun Broker for $300 its a huge increase. I guess they figure more people will pay double than will take their business elsewhere.

Personally I have never bought a firearm online, and have several times paid as much as $100-200 (I like to buy lots of cheaper guns, which I sell to fund other purchases) more just to support local businesses. I spent over $5,000 locally on firearms this past year, with prices being 10-20% cheaper online.

Every store I have been to charges either $20 or $25 for transfers. I wouldn't buy from a store that charged $50 for a transfer. Over here the market wouldnt support that high a price and it would seem insulting to me. Basically a sign saying "Not interested in doing your transfers". If your store was in Houston, and your prices weren't fantastic, I'd never go there again.

On ther other hand if in your area everyone else is charging $50, then I guess thats just your local market. If the cheap transfer fee isn't bringing people into your store then I can't blame you for charging what everyone else charges. Its all relative.

Cortland
February 18, 2007, 01:03 AM
My FFL charges $50 for NFA transfers, $25 for Title I transfers. $50 is justifiable for an NFA transfer, not so much for a regular transfer.

Busta Prima
February 18, 2007, 01:21 AM
They could be trying to discourage people from doing mail order. Sometimes it's tough to compete with mail order. I feel for the "real" stores. But this isn't the way to do it.

Or it could be that they don't want to be bothered. The best way to limit your clientele is to raise your prices. The overly loyal or rich will stay and pay and the rest go away. Everybody wins . . . well, except the rest that go away! :eek:

karz10
February 18, 2007, 01:29 AM
I can understand a tiered structure for gun transfers, based on weapon type, retail cost, new vs used, or that anyone can charge whatever they want.

I can also understand that a dealer would be irritated by a customer ordering something online that they could have bought locally, and that he feels he needs to recoup the money lost on the sale, or think they're giving the customer incentive to just buy from them, but it doesn't always work this way.

I hope dealers see some other sides of this story. If I look online, if I look at other stores, and do research to learn how much a particular firearm is *worth* on the open market, and calculate the cost of shipping, transfer, sometimes w/out sales tax, compared to buying locally, I would like to think that the local dealer can offer some concessions on his retail price, or throw in some value added services to warrant working with them locally, to bring the overall value closer in line to what one could get same elsewhere.

If they could get within $20-$30 on say a $500 purchase OTD, then I think most people would buy locally, or if they're $50 or more higher, if it's a range/dealer, maybe they could throw in free range time, or some ammo, or an accessory (magazine, holster, or something).

But when the OTD cost of getting elsewhere is $50-$100 less than getting from the local dealer, after shipping, after FFL, etc., (which seems to be the case in my area), then don't you think a lot of customers would have to consider that? Then, if you bump your transfer to $50+ (like some have here), you might get the less knowledegable guy and/or the impulse buy guy, but here's a couple other things that can happen:

1) The sale you did make, if they later think you steered them slightly wrong w/ the higher prices and higher FFL fees, and they learn they could have saved a lot of money on the gun or fees, they may not want to do business with you again, so you lost a repeat customer for future guns, accessories, ammo, etc.

2) The smart shopper never buys the first gun from you, thinks you're trying to screw him, doesn't want to give you the business, doesn't want to let you do the FFL, doesn't buy future stuff from you.

It's SO EASY (I own a business) to look at the tangible losses when faced with them, it's much harder to calculate the intangible losses that may be caused by our decisions.

IMO, if a dealer can't get a particular weapon at a reasonable cost, he should reevaluate his buying power, or cost of overhead to see if there's a better way to be competitive. Aside from that, if he's still not competitive in the customer's eyes on a particular deal, and can't offer other value added services mentioned above, you should still work to gain the customer's trust, tell em straight, and offer competitive transfer fees. Again, IMO, I think this would either A) lead him to buy from you anyway, because you were fair with him, B) go ahead and get that one deal from another dealer or online, but let you do the FFL, allowing you to further build a relationship with the customer, C) in either case, you get him in the store more, make a slim $ off the transfer, or the sale, likely get him at POS (Point of Sale) to buy additional accessories, training classes, range time (whatever is applicable), as well as potentially gain a customer for a long time.

Please someone tell me they see the logic in that. Otherwise, you might be shooting yourself in the foot, people become less trustful of the dealer, and go out of their way to buy online, or in my case a neighboring state, and use whatever pawn shop that offers the lowest FFL, it all becomes a commodity to them at that point, you know what happens to people who sell commodities, right? The margins only get slimmmer.

I offered a local dealer a deal where I would buy a handgun and a shotgun, one deal was $900+tax, one deal (more expensive HG) was $1,000, which would have been close to what I could have done the deal online, or out of state, but still more buying from the more convenient local dealer, they couldn't get within $100-$150 on that two gun deal, and they want to charge $60 for a transfer. Why would I ever have a reason to go back there?

My .02

Karz

Rem700SD
February 18, 2007, 01:36 AM
I think $50 is a fair deal. I know of one store in my area that charges 10% for transfers. I wonder how they stay in business, because they don't get mine!

Dan

dogtown tom
February 18, 2007, 01:51 AM
$50 per transfer? Any competitor you have gets my business- ALL of it.
Ammo, reloading supplies, whatever. And some FFL's wonder why we get C&R's and buy our ammo at Wal Mart. No one begrudges you making a profit, but keep this up and you'll keep Wal Mart in the gun business for a long time.

A service that can be done in MINUTES, requires no inventory, no investment of capital, no salesmanship ability, and will get folks INTO your shop should be a no brainer for any FFL.

I went looking for a FFL to do a couple of transfers last year here in the Dallas area. These guys are great:

Big Daddy's Guns & Supplies, L.L.C. www.bigdaddysguns.com offers firearm transfer services at the very competitive price of $15* per gun. So if you need to ship or receive a weapon to/from another dealer, give us a call at 214-364-1969 or email us at Sales@BigDaddysGuns.com for more information.

*Shipping fee is $15, plus actual postage per gun.
*Receiving fee is $15 per gun.

There are no discounts for multiple items.

CHL Holders receive a $5 discount on transfers.
NRA Members receive a $5 discount on transfers.

CHL & NRA discounts CAN BE COMBINED, bringing your transfer cost down to only $5 per weapon. So don't forget to bring your current NRA Membership card along with you!

Bob R
February 18, 2007, 01:58 AM
I am not sure what happens at my dealer before I get there. I know he has to do something upon receiving the gun.

But once I am there, I fill out the 4473, look at the gun, pay 25 dollars, ask how the hunting/weather/etc. has been. He doesn't have to make a phone call, my concealed license is my NICS number. I give him my 25 dollars, get in my car and drive home with my gun.

Would I pay 50 dollars to do the same, probably not, I would find someone else to do the transfer.

bob

spankaveli
February 18, 2007, 02:14 AM
I can't see how $50 can be justified. I pay $25 at a local pawn shop but I could drive 20 minutes and pay $10 but the pawn shop is so close to my house.

And I've never spent more than 5-8 minutes while they do paperwork and I walk out with my new gun.

craig
February 18, 2007, 02:47 AM
$50.00 does seem a little steep, but it does depend on what others in the area are charging.

one guy in my area charges $50.00. he gets none of my transfers, or any other business.

another charges $36.00. he got two transfers, and a little business.

the last guy charges $25.00. he gets all my transfers, and lots of my business.

bogie
February 18, 2007, 02:54 AM
No wonder the small dealers are going out of business.

Tell ya what... YOU pay for a storefront operation open during business hours.

YOU pay for the utilities.

YOU pay for the alarm service.

YOU pay to keep the place clean, etc.

Never mind all the stock that people paw, break, damage, stuff back to the back of the shelves, etc.

Then there's insurance, liability, FFL licensing, all that stuff.

He gets a $300 taurus, and that's the same hassle as a $3,000 benchrest rifle. Fine. But if either of them shows up damaged, or the customer decides to pitch a fit over something, guess who is stuck in the middle...

There may be a "hobbyist" shop in your area, and there you may be lucky. But he may not be there next week.

Sheesh... Most of you guys bitching about PAYING for some other poor fellow to deal with BATF inspections, etc., etc., probably wouldn't BLINK at paying it for something else. It's like you think boomsticks should be free or something.

vis--vis
February 18, 2007, 03:59 AM
One of the reasons I don't buy as many guns is because of the transfer cost (that and I have a crappy income). This happened with my last purchase. The cost of the gun was fine. The transfer almost broke me. But then it all goes back to the Gov't being at fault.

mrmeval
February 18, 2007, 04:15 AM
Thanks for that. I'll deal with a gun shop that thinks CEO is some sort of gun accessory and not a license to steal.

I've listened to the salesmen with FFLs saying it's going to break them. Tough. I'll deal with the guy that transfers in my stuff without a lot of noise or expense.

When I do it I'll remember them and since I'm already in the store I can pick up something I need if it's reasonably priced.

One of the stores I frequent does more in transfers than sales usually and is happy to do that. They make more profit on a transfer than most guns and they get people in the store and looking.

Oh, and a 30 dollar 03 FFL is for the stuff I can do myself. I have more guns because of it.

ArchAngelCD
February 18, 2007, 05:22 AM
Sorry if I'm repeating...

No matter what some of you have said it doesn't take more than 15 minutes to do the paperwork. @ $25 that's $100 an hour.

Raising the fee from $25 to $50 is a 100% increase, not a slight increase.

@ $50 the rate is now $200 an hour.

Sorry, but that's just ridiculous.

Delta608
February 18, 2007, 08:05 AM
I'm guessing your going to get a "slight" reduction in business as well....It sorta like tax cuts...Reduce the tax, increase revenue...

skipjack
February 18, 2007, 08:08 AM
How likely is someone who buys a gun online to purchase other items from my store?

"@$50 the rate is now $200 an hour."

You are joking, right? Do you have any concept of overhead, payroll, etc?

The customer who purchases new firearms online is likely to purchase ammo online, or at wally world. Who needs 'em?

I understand purchasing used guns online. That is a different scenario.

Some customers are such cheeseballs, that I am glad to see them "take all their business elsewhere".

Delta608
February 18, 2007, 08:16 AM
Some customers are such cheeseballs, that I am glad to see them "take all their business elsewhere".


And they are....:neener:

45Badger
February 18, 2007, 08:46 AM
Some customers are such cheeseballs, that I am glad to see them "take all their business elsewhere".

Sounds like MOST of the Maryland FFLs/shops I see at shows. Pricing very common used guns at what new guns regularly sell for, charging $40-60 for transfers, telling/scaring customers about how difficult it is to get that Glock 17.

All that is a BIG red flag for me as a semi-knowledgable comsumer. As a somewhat compulsive gun buyer (and seller, swapper, collector), I do not know how much I spend on guns annually. My wife is sure that it is too much, but I do my bit to keep the costs in line. I very rarely buy new guns (it's OK by me if someone else takes the depreciation hit) and I keep the transfer costs down.

My local FFLs charge $15, $20, and $40 for transfers. For that the first two get-
All my transfers
Me looking at their used guns every time I'm in the neighborhood
Ammo sales
Target sales
Used holster sales
Used oddball junk sales
Some reloading equipment and component sales
and a gun sale every now and then.

In the last (non-typical week), I bought $200 worth of soft goods from the $20 guy.

The $40 guy gets me cherry picking his used and consignment inventory for his very rare and occasional good deal. He has a brand new shop and range, very helpful staff, and probably lots of overhead. His costs of doing business are his problem, not mine. To date, the value proposition that he offers (at his price point) does not drive me to go there and dump money in his registers.

So, FFLs and shops are free to charge what they want. I think it is short sighted and foolish to whack somebody $40-60 for a transfer. It's the difference between killing a cow and milking it.

nelson133
February 18, 2007, 09:09 AM
Good luck to you but I would stop doing business with you.

Mannlicher
February 18, 2007, 09:11 AM
Even $50 is not unreasonable. Several years ago, when I was living in Miami, I was paying that for the service of buying non stocked products from my dealer.

Ala Dan
February 18, 2007, 09:13 AM
Ladies and Gentlemen-

I'm not involved in the decision making process, I merely pass
on information that I receive from my boss. YES, we discussed the possibility
of making some folks mad, and therefore losing some business. We are an old,
established FFL dealer that has served the public since the turn of the 20th
century at the same location. We are not going away~! We will walk
the extra mile too accomodate our clientile. We will not let $50
dollars stand between our friendship that we have established with you;
regardless if you are a first time buyer of a firearm, or an ole' fart like
myself that has been doing business with us for ages~! Guy's this is the 21st
century, and as my friend Green Furniture (and a few others) eluded too,
cost of operating expenses have multiplied two fold~! We are not out to
strong arm, or rob anyone~! Anybody, that has ever dealt with Simmons
Sporting Goods knows that we handle each transaction, one customer
at a time and with the utmost respect for each customer. We would
not have it any other way-PERIOD~! We offer the easiest terms in the
firearms business; such as a 90-day Lay-A-Way, or 12 months interest
free financing. For instance, if you buy a weapon (or any thing else for
that matter) from us and have placed it on Lay-A-Way- and you find
yourself unable too get it out on time; there in NO problem- simply
call us (or come by) and we will gladly extend the time period to
accomodate your needs- WITH NO QUESTIONS ASKED. We are very
nice people, just try'in too make a living- as we are family owned and
operated. As always, your patronage is always appreciated- and I'm
look'in forward to serving your firearms (or clothing) related needs.

Respectfully,

Rem700
February 18, 2007, 09:27 AM
$50 on your $1600 Weatherby might not seen to bad but on a used $200 Taurus its 25%.

hotpig
February 18, 2007, 09:27 AM
I do lots of transfers for 10.00. That is on the low side in my area. One thing that I have noticed not one custumer that buys guns online has ever asked me for my prices on ammo or any other item. They buy accessories online or at WallyWorld just like I did when I was a customer.

TaxPhd
February 18, 2007, 09:47 AM
Someone has to get paid to:

Send out the FFL.

Accept the package.

Inspect the package.

Log weapon in the Bound Book.

Assist you with your 4473.

Submit your information on the 4473 to NICS.

Complete your transaction.

Ring you up.

File your 4473.

Log out the weapon.

And that is before you take into account that someone had to pay the BATFE for the FFL, pay for insurance, pay rent, utilities, taxes and so on.

Quote:
thats $10 per minute, wish i could work at a job and get paid that much.
You must be a union guy.

Guess what? If the transfer wasn't being done, you'd STILL have to pay the guy. And unless 100% of his time is spent on revenue producing activities, there is excess capacity that can bu used to do transfers.

"@$50 the rate is now $200 an hour."

You are joking, right? Do you have any concept of overhead, payroll, etc?


Same analysis as before. Even if you don't do the transfer, you still have all of your payroll, overhead, etc. All of you people in business that spout off this same argument should have paid more attention in your Accounting Principles class. The marginal cost of a transfer is very low. Much lower than $50. Any amount charged over the marginal cost is pure profit.

But hey, what do I know?




Scott

Primersinmyshoe
February 18, 2007, 10:13 AM
$50 per transfer would not fly in my area. My local indoor range/gun shop charges $30/non members, $10/members. I work there part time, my transfers are free :)

Old Fuff
February 18, 2007, 10:14 AM
I'm not going to slam retailers for transfer charges, but I would like to point out that the folks on the anti-gun side of the coin often do everything and anything they can to increase the paperwork and expense of buying guns above the cost of the gun itself. The idea of course is to discourage gun buying in general.

On those relatively few occasions when I buy a new gun I get it from a local retailer - put simply I want to keep him in business. On the other had my interests are more directed toward what might be called "classic" older models, and these are seldom seen in local shops. They are around, but the owners are seldom interested in selling them.

So I have to go outside my own rural community and shop auctions and selected Internet dealers. This probably will require an FFL transfer. If I had to pay a $50.00 transfer fee on top of handling & shipping I would likely pass some buys because the total cost would exceed their market value.

One answer to my kind of buying would be to get a C&R license - something that's becoming increasingly popular.

In the present instance the increase in their fee will result in less business of all kinds, as potential customers seek out alternatives. The only ones who will be well served by this will be the anti's. Think about it. :scrutiny: :banghead:

MechAg94
February 18, 2007, 10:57 AM
Most transfer prices I have seen around here are $15 and $10 with a CHL. Not all dealers charge that, but I typically don't call a dealer to do a transfer.

I order bulk ammo and accessories online or get them at gun shows, but small lots of ammo or specialty ammo I buy at stores or gun shows. I prefer to buy bulk ammo at shows or stores, but stores never carry bulk ammo that I can see around here. If they do, they add about 50% to the price.

GreenFurniture
February 18, 2007, 11:08 AM
A quick rundown.


1994 there were 245,628 Type 1 FFLs doing business in the USA.

2005 there were 54,902 Type 1 FFLs.

Think about that. Roughly 190,000 less FFLs.

I am not against transfers. I am against gun owners doing every thing they can to run more gun stores out of business with their penny pinching and out of state purchases.

If you have a store who is doing you the favor of handling your transfers the least you can do is buy a box of ammo or a holster every so often.

DMK
February 18, 2007, 11:15 AM
Why do I get the vibe that transfer fees are a punishment tax because I don't like anything that the gun store happens to stock? :(

GreenFurniture
February 18, 2007, 11:21 AM
Why do I get the vibe that transfer fees are a punishment tax because I don't like anything that the gun store happens to stock?

You have three choices.

1. Learn some patience. Everything will filter its way into the store. Give the guy who runs the place a list of what you are looking for so if it comes in he can give you a call.

2. Tell the guy who runs the place what you are looking for. Maybe he'll order it for you.

3. If he won't do this take your business to another store in the area.

craig
February 18, 2007, 11:24 AM
run gun stores out of business by penny pinching and out of state purchases?

it depends on what the local store's trying to do to me.

example... 1000 rounds wolf 7.62x39 delivered to my door. $176.50. one local store wants $300.00 plus tax, another wants $195.00 plus tax. 1000 rounds bought online, 1000 rounds bought from cheaper local guy, because that's all he had.

example 2... 140 round s.a .308 surplus battle pack. $50.00 per pack at local gun show last week. local store wants $89.95 a pack.:fire:
he can keep that ammo.

i'm willing to help the local guy, but i'm not getting hosed like that.

DMK
February 18, 2007, 11:29 AM
1. Learn some patience. Everything will filter its way into the store. Give the guy who runs the place a list of what you are looking for so if it comes in he can give you a call.I live in a very rural area. My local stores are never going to stock things like FAL recievers, AR recievers, CZ-97s, Romanian PSLs, Tokarevs, etc. I'm very, very lucky when I come across the Colt CCO or S&W 25(blued, not SS) and if I do it's ridiculously expensive. Plenty of Remchesters and Rugers which I have no interest in.

2. Tell the guy who runs the place what you are looking for. Maybe he'll order it for you. Most of the stuff I want is used. If he'll order the new stuff, it's for MSRP or higher (like pretty much all the stuff in the shop).

I find the things I want on Gunbroker and the classifieds here all the time. I just look and drool. I'm not paying the high transfer fees. Luckily I have my C&R.

loumarch
February 18, 2007, 11:35 AM
I'm shocked that this thread isn't up to 6 pages yet!

This is a hot button topic, for sure. I think both sides make very valid arguments, both pro and con. However, some of you are looking at the situation the wrong way.

I own a retail business. My labor costs are basically a fixed expense, they might fluctuate slightly, but in general they stay the same week to week. In slow periods I can have the employees doing other non-sales work, it doesn't matter what they are doing, it costs me the same.

The business I own is a restaurant. If someone came in to eat but brought drinks or dessert from somewhere else would I allow it? NO WAY. Establishments with liquor licenses charge you a corkage fee if you bring your own alcoholic drinks because you are affecting their margin. Why should a retail gun shop help you save money on a competitor's product?

If it is a gun they can't get then it is fair to have a lower transfer fee. If it is a gun they stock or can order for you then you should pay more for the transfer because they lost the profit on the gun. If they charge $15 for a normal transfer and you transfer in a new gun that they would make $35 on then you should pay $50. It's their business and they should run it as they see fit.

The shop I frequent has a sliding scale for transfers and it works well for them. I have never brought a gun in that they would sell, to me that would be disrespectful. I buy ammo and reloading supplies there so that they can continue to keep their gun prices low. I know, that because of my continued patronage, that they are always treating me fair so I purchase as much as I can afford.

dcoop
February 18, 2007, 11:38 AM
"1994 there were 245,628 Type 1 FFLs doing business in the USA.

2005 there were 54,902 Type 1 FFLs.

Think about that. Roughly 190,000 less FFLs"


That is due to the Clinton Administration. FFL's went from roughly $35 to $200:what: Not to mention all the new stipulations and BS that comes along with it.

simulatedjim
February 18, 2007, 11:42 AM
"A quick rundown.


1994 there were 245,628 Type 1 FFLs doing business in the USA.

2005 there were 54,902 Type 1 FFLs.

Think about that. Roughly 190,000 less FFLs.

I am not against transfers. I am against gun owners doing every thing they can to run more gun stores out of business with their penny pinching and out of state purchases.

If you have a store who is doing you the favor of handling your transfers the least you can do is buy a box of ammo or a holster every so often."

That is because of the rule changes by the Govt for being an FFL. Don't think they went out of business by not having sales or making money.

???Where is the quote button????

CajunBass
February 18, 2007, 11:49 AM
Around here most transfer fee's are $35.00. I've heard of one shop that charges $25.00 but I've never bothered to confirm it with them. One of the $35.00 shops told me, "Frankly, we don't want the business." Which is ok with me, it's their business, and they can run it anyway they want. It won't stop me from buying guns and such from them.

I figure if I want something or other, one of my local dealers will either have it, can get it, or I probably can't afford it anyway. :D

DMK
February 18, 2007, 11:51 AM
The business I own is a restaurant. If someone came in to eat but brought drinks or dessert from somewhere else would I allow it? NO WAY. Establishments with liquor licenses charge you a corkage fee if you bring your own alcoholic drinks because you are affecting their margin. Why should a retail gun shop help you save money on a competitor's product?
Bad example. I am not forced by law to buy all my food through a local vendor. I can go to another state and if I see somethying I like, I can eat it there, plus take some home with me. In fact, I can order anything from cookies to steaks and have it delivered to my door. Imagine if you had to transfer all meats through a local restaurant and there was a call-in background check for cookies?

If I come across an SKS Para (which I have never seen locally) in another state, I have to ship it to a local gunstore and pay whatever he wants to charge for the transfer.

atek3
February 18, 2007, 11:58 AM
Just about every business that sells tangible goods is learning to compete effectively with the internet. Why should gun stores be any different?

Gun stores shouldn't try to get me to purchase locally by jacking up their transfer fees to prohibitive levels. They should get me to purchase locally by being fast, friendly, convenient, and priced reasonably. For example. If I want a 500 dollar rifle and a gunstore wants $700 for the same thing, I'll look long and hard for a cheap FFL to do a transfer. If the gun store wants $525 or $550, I'll probably go to the local store.

Don't try to guilt-trip people into overpaying for guns because your cost structure and strategy don't allow you to be competitive.

atek3

22-rimfire
February 18, 2007, 11:58 AM
Okay, $50 for a transfer on a mail order sale. I could live with that if I had to. But if $50 is not too much, why not $100 or $200 per transfer and have it mandated at the state or federal level like Title III firearms. Sounds like another way for the anti's to restrict access to firearms. I know, I took this to the extreme, but it was just to make a point.

hotpig
February 18, 2007, 12:18 PM
I have only been in the business for ten years. I will admit that I suck as a businessman. If I did not have a full time job and a part time job my family would be living on welfare.

I have learned some valuable lessons on this forum.

I have to sale everything at wholesale prices.

I have to be available to answer questions and accept orders 24/7. I have a web store with a secure check out and real time inventory.I also have a toll free number and toll free fax.

Customers call me at all hours of the day and night. I just love being called at 3am for a shipping quote on a box of 9mm ammo.

I have to take credit card payments. I can not pass any of the costs (2.7-4.35% plus fees depending on the type of card)on to the customer.

I have to charge 2.7-4.35% plus fees less than the actual cost of shipping.

I have to offer interest free layaway for 90 days.

I have to match my competitors advertised discounted cash price. In other wards if the competitor charges 3.5% for credit cards I have to beat his price by 6.2-7.85% plus fees.

The only thing that I'm not getting from this forum is how do I pay for this stuff?

45Badger
February 18, 2007, 12:20 PM
1994 there were 245,628 Type 1 FFLs doing business in the USA.

2005 there were 54,902 Type 1 FFLs.

Think about that. Roughly 190,000 less FFLs.

Reasonable (to the customer) cost transfers never put anyone out of business. Gun stores make money the same way every other retail location does. LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION. Provide quality goods and distinctive services. Price your items appropriately to have a balanced inventory turnover and return on invested cash. Maybe that means selling common items like Glocks for a low margin, but high turnover, and less common items with a higher margin and lower turnover. Again, not the consumer's problem.

I am not against transfers. I am against gun owners doing every thing they can to run more gun stores out of business with their penny pinching and out of state purchases.

Many gun store owners see this through a VERY narrow lens, and can get quite myopic when it comes to understanding and managing costs. A consumer should not be a victim to a retailer's inability to get a lower cost of goods. Improve your cost structure (and value proposition) to compete or die.

If you have a store who is doing you the favor of handling your transfers the least you can do is buy a box of ammo or a holster every so often.

Absolute common sense! First lesson my gunfreak friend taught me about gun stores when I was a noob. ALWAYS buy something.

I think the high transfer fee folks are gonna kill the goose. You'll end up with a few high end customers, who have high discretionary income. The "gun market" is not in place because you have an FFL and a shop. It is driven by demand, not supply. I do not see demand supporting $50 transfers. It just makes fieams ownership/collection more expensive and burdensome to the "average Joe", and in the long run will contibute to driving some folks out of the gun buying market. Won't the antis love that!

Like I posted earlier, I take my compulsive spending habits to places that don't rape me.

45Badger
February 18, 2007, 12:30 PM
I have only been in the business for ten years. I will admit that I suck as a businessman. If I did not have a full time job and a part time job my family would be living on welfare.

I have learned some valuable lessons on this forum.

I have to sale everything at wholesale prices.

I have to be available to answer questions and accept orders 24/7. I have a web store with a secure check out and real time inventory.I also have a toll free number and toll free fax.

Customers call me at all hours of the day and night. I just love being called at 3am for a shipping quote on a box of 9mm ammo.

I have to take credit card payments. I can not pass any of the costs (2.7-4.35% plus fees depending on the type of card)on to the customer.

I have to charge 2.7-4.35% plus fees less than the actual cost of shipping.

I have to offer interest free layaway for 90 days.

I have to match my competitors advertised discounted cash price. In other wards if the competitor charges 3.5% for credit cards I have to beat his price by 6.2-7.85% plus fees.

The only thing that I'm not getting from this forum is how do I pay for this stuff?

Again, not the consumer's problem. Free advice-

For starters, buy better. Negotiate better terms with your suppliers, negotiate better terms with your credit card processers, negotiate better terms with your bank. Are you a good valued/customer to these places? If you think so, see if someone else values your business even more.

I work as a sales manager for am obscenely large (@75B in sales) company, we are pretty efficient and frugal in out operations. Customers routinely (@ every three years) send out RFPs (requests for proposals) to all the major and minor players in my business. They are continously looking to lower their cost of goods and increase the service level and expertise that they get for the cost. I hate it, but it's the way of the world. To be fair to our customer base, the pressure they exert on our industry has resulted in taking millions out of the supply chain.

Nobody ever said it was gonna be easy.

hotpig
February 18, 2007, 12:47 PM
I have been working on the credit card issue. The direct companies offer better rates. Since I have a high risk business referred as MOTO because I never see customers and their credit cards I pay a higher percentage.

I thought that I had made a lot of headway this last week. My business looked good on paper. I look good on paper. I had never had a charge back, disputed charge, or fraudulent purchase. I was a shoe in according to the rep.Then they checked my web site.:uhoh:

Oh well back to square one.

Rotty
February 18, 2007, 03:41 PM
GreenFurniture....since you decided to direct something to me, I shall respond.
Are you in fact a FFL?
Have you ever heard of paying a reasonable fee for a service?
I am a FFL my business turned a profit after my second year, as both a gunsmith and FFL dealer.
I charge $10 for the average customer for a transfer, $5 for my repeat customers.
As a ffl doing the transfer I have the customer send the FFL to the dealer (they pay for sending the FFL) when they send there payment. (BTW I KNOW every one of my customers too)
when there firearm arrives I log it in, file the other FFL's info, (gee that took about 30 seconds)
customer arrives, as he/she is filling out the 4473, I am online doing the NICS check, I am usually done before he/she is. IF they need it I then help them complete any forms or answer any questions, if they don't need help I log the firearm out to them, they then pay me my fee and are on there way.
Like i said give or take 5 minutes for doing hardly anything, my pay and covering my expenses comes from my sales (which almost every one of my customers ends up buying from me more than once because i provide products and services at a reasonable price) and from gunsmithing, which again is appropriately priced.
I am not union, personally don't believe in them except when they are needed, which isn't very often any more here in the US, I am against them because they WOULD charge $50 for a F#@$*ng transfer then they would bitch about how hard it was to do.
So unless you know.........KMA:cuss:
my customers are happy and keep coming back, and I'm making a profit.
can you say the same?

CDignition
February 18, 2007, 03:56 PM
this is what the free market is all about..if ya don't like the price, go somewhere that has a better one..they are free to charge anything they want, but when they see a sales decrease on the books, they will likely switch back. If they don't, it is their loss, not anyone else's.

Cliff47
February 18, 2007, 04:54 PM
I had a local pawn emporium with a gun store in the back that used to charge a flat $20 on transfers, then it got raised, incrementally to $35. I went out and found another pawn shop that, little to my knowing, was still transferring for $20, and now advertises that fact.

I have transferred three pistols thru the latest shop, and even found a nice 12-GA pump for a song (even though I can't carry a tune in a bucket), just before the last transfer. The next step is for them to start carrying new firearms, rather than just pawned items.

I still go back to the first shop, because they carry accessories at a very reasonable price, and they can custom-order for me. It's all a matter of keeping the best deal in sight.

If both were to raise the transfer fee to $50, like in the first post, I would find another transfer dealer, PRONTO!

420Stainless
February 18, 2007, 04:55 PM
In the long, or perhaps even short run, if the price of transfer fees reaches a point where it is lucrative for individuals to make a good living off of doing nothing but transfers - the market may shift to a few large internet dealers with very high volumes shipping through individual transfer agents. I think the lgs is safe for now with a large portion of customers not sure of the specific model they want, and many older folks who aren't used to the notion of buying sight unseen. But as demographics shift ever more to people who are used to shopping online, that will probably change. As it is now, the closest dealer to me sells a good percentage of his stock on gunsamerica and through online auctions. He is happy to process transfers at a reasonable fee since he uses the system as a sales tool as well.

Koobuh
February 18, 2007, 05:28 PM
"I am not against transfers. I am against gun owners doing every thing they can to run more gun stores out of business with their penny pinching and out of state purchases."

No small business can afford to carry every item that every person could possibly ever want. It is not physicially possible. That is why ordering from catalogs was popular, and now, ordering through the internet is popular.

As a (former) business owner myself, I would have been absulutely tickled pink that the government had MANDATED that any out of state mail order business had to pass through the doors of a licensed proprietorship, such as I owned.

FFL transfers are FREE MONEY. Get that? FREE. You do a little paperwork, and you get $10, $25, whatever. Thats huge.

THAT'S YOUR PROFIT MARGIN ON A THREE FIGURE SALE, NUMBSKULLS!!!

For what? Receiving a piece of mail, and doing some paperwork.

You didn't have to order it, carry it as inventory, depreciate it, enter it into your accounting logs, dust it weekly, nothing; just store it in the back until your customer comes to pick it up, and possibly some other things as well while they were there.

What is wrong with you numbskull 'business owners'? FFL transfers are FREE MONEY! On a sale you most likely wouldn't have gotten anyway, because you can't afford to meet the discounts catalog sellers manage because of their volume! If you could get the item at all!
The government is effectively subsidising your business massively by fiat, and you have the unmitigated GALL to complain about it, and sometimes even charge unreasonably high fees if you 'deign' to deal in such?!

$50 is absolutely out of this world. I pay $20 for long-guns, and it's too high (C&R here I come). My average purchase is around $200, typically for military surplus rifles. I don't buy lazzeronis or engraved remchester commemoritives, and even if I did, I wouldn't be able to buy them locally, if even inside my state.

I'll tell you God's honest truth right now, my area SUCKS for finding military surplus or even used, current production firearms. There either just isn't a market for them, or there are a whooole lot of wealthy, stealthy collectors up here.

Which means, that if I want a particular piece, and a local shop either doesn't have it or is selling it at a gold-plated price, I'm buying it elsewhere and transferring it in. The gov says I must do it through an FFL, so I must- and give them some FREE MONEY for a few minutes of their time.

Anyone that wants to complain about getting FREEE MONEEEY -should- go out of business, because they ARE MORONS!



EDIT:
Greenfurniture, how do you justify your absolutely ridiculous statement, re: 'everything eventually comes through the store anyway', when that can't possibly be true for your store, however large and excellently established and lavishly financed; let alone for a small mom'n'pop in the Fourth Corner of Washington, which has trouble getting anything more esoteric than Mosin Nagant rifles?
Buying local is a good sentiment and one I follow if possible, but sometimes your needs simply cannot be met locally- in that case, if a local business can benefit from government regulation via a transfer fee, is it really such a big deal to have something shipped in?

Additionally, on new production firearms (for example, I'm looking at a varmint rifle), the price difference is often hundreds of dollars. It's nice to pay more to support local businesses, but for a lot of people, a couple hun represents -days- of work thrown away for sentimentality, or perhaps the utility of having it 'today'. In that case, a retailer could see the FFL fee, or nothing. Is nothing better than a little something? Clearly not.

GreenFurniture
February 18, 2007, 05:29 PM
GreenFurniture....since you decided to direct something to me, I shall respond.
Are you in fact a FFL?

Yes, yes I am. Type 07. What's yours?

Have you ever heard of paying a reasonable fee for a service?

Why yes I have. It's not that advanced of a concept.

I am a FFL my business turned a profit after my second year, as both a gunsmith and FFL dealer.

Well congratulations! In the current climate it tough for any type of stand alone business to make it more than one year. You really must have an uncanny ability to manage your time and your business. What gunsmithing school did you attend? Maybe you and I know some of the same people.

I charge $10 for the average customer for a transfer, $5 for my repeat customers.

That's great. I'm glad you have a loyal customer base. We charge a flat $35 for transfers. But we also pay for all background checks for our members.

As a ffl doing the transfer I have the customer send the FFL to the dealer (they pay for sending the FFL) when they send there payment. (BTW I KNOW every one of my customers too)

Yes, the customer sometimes will pay for postage, but we generally take care of that ourselves to save them the trouble as well as to keep our signed FFL out of the hands of someone who might have the best of intentions.

You know every one of your customers? How many are we talking about? I try my best to remember most of our regular customers and do my best to make first time customers feel welcome and at home in my shop.

when there firearm arrives I log it in, file the other FFL's info, (gee that took about 30 seconds)

Yep, it takes about a minute or so to track down the shippers information and another minute or so to log it in. The problem is that we are logging in about twenty or more guns a day so that makes the whole process a little more complicated than that of a one man gunsmithing shop.

customer arrives, as he/she is filling out the 4473, I am online doing the NICS check, I am usually done before he/she is. IF they need it I then help them complete any forms or answer any questions, if they don't need help I log the firearm out to them, they then pay me my fee and are on there way.

The online check really has saved some time for a lot of us. I'm just glad that we have a dedicated person to do all of our online background checks.

Like i said give or take 5 minutes for doing hardly anything, my pay and covering my expenses comes from my sales (which almost every one of my customers ends up buying from me more than once because i provide products and services at a reasonable price) and from gunsmithing, which again is appropriately priced.

Sounds like you've got one hell of a system there. Hey, do you have a price list of services you offer? I might be interested in some of your work.

I am not union, personally don't believe in them except when they are needed, which isn't very often any more here in the US, I am against them because they WOULD charge $50 for a F#@$*ng transfer then they would bitch about how hard it was to do.

You're right, and it would take thirty people to do it!

So unless you know.........KMA

Well it looks as if you're cross with me. For that I am sorry.

my customers are happy and keep coming back, and I'm making a profit

We do a good business. Our retail software just had to be upgraded for the fourth time since we have once again maxed out our customer data allotment.


can you say the same?

Well, I sure hope so since we're moving into two more markets.

JohnBT
February 18, 2007, 06:26 PM
"FFL transfers are FREE MONEY."

Maybe it's free if the store has an employee standing around doing nothing, but if that employee can sell a gun instead of fooling with a transfer the store stands to make more money. One local shop has 3 registers and the guys stay busy selling guns and ammo and stuff. They have 4000+ guns in stock and they move guns out the door day after day, year after year - seven days a week.

The last time I asked about a transfer it was $40 and they really weren't enthused by the prospect of making a whole $40. OTOH, they'll show you guns until you get tired of looking, scroll through the computerized inventory to identify specific models/variants still in the warehouse and then make the long walk to the back to drag them out for a look-see.

John

sixgunsblazing
February 18, 2007, 07:07 PM
I'm just glad I have several gunshops willing to do my transfers for 25 or less, and they get a lot of my business. New guns mean new ammo, holsters, slings, cleaning kits, ect. None of which I would buy from a shop like yours, but stuff I do buy from my local, low cost guy.

razorburn
February 18, 2007, 07:27 PM
He has a right to charge whatever they wish, it is their store. Customers also have a right to choose where they want to spend their money. Here's a listing of other dealers in his area who charge a fraction of what he does.

7.0 miles
Mark Hughes
Mark's Cop Shop
Hoover, AL 35226
email: Click here to email me
cellular: 205-365-3791

Hours: Mon-Tue. 9:00am-5:00pm
Transfer fee: $15.00 Click here to visit us on the Web

I am a private dealer. Please call during business hours (Mon.-Tues. 9am-5pm) for an appointment. Visit our website for some great deals on law enforcement equipment!

Approximate distance: 8.5 miles
The Gun Cellar
1777 Montgomery Highway Suite 105
Hoover, AL 35244
email: Click here to email me
phone: 205-987-9777

Hours: 10:00a.m.-7:00p.m. Mon-Fri, 10:00a.m.-6:00p.m. Sat
Click here to visit us on the Web



Approximate distance: 13.1 miles
Bill Dollar, Aaron Rheams
JoJo's Gun and Pawn
4612 5th Ave South
Birmingham, AL 35222
email: Click here to email me
phone: 205-591-7296
fax: 205-591-7297

Hours: 10:00am-6:00pm Mon-Sat
We only sell guns if we have them below wholesale. Best prices garanteed.

Approximate distance: 13.1 miles
Alabama Training Institute
Birmingham, AL 35222
email: Click here to email me
phone: 205-592-3004
fax: 205-592-3034

Hours: 10:00am-8:00pm Mon-Sat, 1:00pm-8:00pm Sun
Transfer fee: $25.00 Transfer Fee 9% sales tax Click here to visit us on the Web

Indoor Shooting Range, Training Classes, Accessories, Firearms, and much more.

Approximate distance: 14.5 miles
Scott's Jewelry & Pawn
873 1st Street North
Alabaster, AL 35007
email: Click here to email me
phone: 205-664-4032
fax: 205-664-4134

Hours: 9:00am-6:00pm Mon-Fri; 9:00am-5:00pm Sat
Transfer fee: $20.00 long guns, $20.00 handguns, plus $5.00 NICS and 8% sales tax

Approximate distance: 14.7 miles
Chris Street
Chris Street Guns
5051 Lee Street drive
Cahaba Valley, 119 area
Birmingham, AL 35242
email: Click here to email me
phone: 205-991-7025

Hours: Call for appointment.
Transfer fee: $15.00 I am a private dealer and do not have a shop. I sell from my home by appointment. Call for available guns and prices.

Approximate distance: 14.7 miles
Robert F. Smith
Original Magazines
4128 Sicard Hollow Rd.
Birmingham, AL 35242-5602
email: Click here to email me
phone: 205-967-1530
cellular: 205-903-7883

Transfer fee: $30.00 per item Magazines for pistols and rifles, specialty gun parts, Lugar restoration, rust blueing, quality shotguns.

Approximate distance: 21.7 miles
James Nicholas
XD-HS2000
2650 Sweeny Hollow Rd.
Birmingham, AL 35215
email: Click here to email me
phone: 205-681-2001

Hours: 10:00am-8:00pm Mon-Fri Central Time
Transfer fee: $10.00

Jerry L. Bell
The Gun Room
804 Northcrest Drive
Birmingham, AL 35235
email: Click here to email me
phone: 205-833-3677
fax: 205-661-6051
cellular: 205-919-1456

Hours: 4:30pm-10:00pm Mon.-Fri., (9:00am-9:00pm Sat.
Transfer fee: $20.00 (01 Transfers) $75.00 (Class III Transfers)


If I lived around his area, I may post these listings on the public street outside his shop.

Pa. Patriot
February 18, 2007, 07:36 PM
I charge $15
I don't have a gun store (gunsmith) but if I did I would charge $15... I would want as many people as possible to FIND my establishment (IE: get them in the door).
Charging $50 for a transfer is the wrong way to ATTRACT customers that might need ammo, accessories, other guns etc. etc. :)

45Badger
February 18, 2007, 09:52 PM
I charge $15
I don't have a gun store (gunsmith) but if I did I would charge $15... I would want as many people as possible to FIND my establishment (IE: get them in the door).
Charging $50 for a transfer is the wrong way to ATTRACT customers that might need ammo, accessories, other guns etc. etc.

BINGO!

One local shop has 3 registers and the guys stay busy selling guns and ammo and stuff. They have 4000+ guns in stock and they move guns out the door day after day, year after year - seven days a week.

JohnBT- What is shop name? I get to Richmond pretty often for work and would love to check it out. Thanks!

JohnBT
February 18, 2007, 10:31 PM
Green Top - U.S. 1 north of Richmond & south of Ashland

www.greentophuntfish.com/index.asp

They're so busy they don't even do internet sales. :cool:

John

solareclipse
February 18, 2007, 10:35 PM
Well my new dealer (old one moved) charges 30, which is way up there. But 50$ is just pushing it. :mad: :barf:

I can understand on "stamped" weapons and "special" steel but on non restricted items it's a robbery...

Lupinus
February 18, 2007, 10:50 PM
Happy customers are repeat customers, any succesful retailer knows that.

Ticked off customers who feel they are being analy violated aren't going to do their transfer there, aren't gonna buy the gun there, and wont buy anything else there. You can either take a slight per sale loss and make more money in the long run through repeat loyal buisness, or make more per sale loose sales and never see the customer agian.

I will take option A thanks. Rotty has the right idea.

Monkeybear
February 18, 2007, 11:25 PM
Some people like to bar hop on the weekends but I think most people just want to find that one good one to go to whenever they want a drink.

I think that what alot of us want is that one GOOD gunshop.

For the customer that one shop that has a good selection, fair prices, friendly service and friendly policies. Friendly policies are policies that don't make the customer have to look for another place to shop. Friendly service means not making me have to put up with crap because of some jerk you had to deal with eairler today, or last week or whenever; its not my fault. Fair prices are more difficult because fair is a two way street. Basically fair tries to make it easy for you to stay in business while trying to make it easy for me to buy from you. It's not wholesale and its not MSRP on a used gun and MSRP + 10% on a new one. A good selection means try to carry something other than Glock and Charter Arms. At least offer to try to order something if you don't have it.

For the gun shop that requires regular customer, customers that actually want to buy a gun, that have money, are friendly and don't have excessive expectations or demands. Excessive demands mean expecting everything to be sold at cost with a free box of premium ammo and some cash to cover gas for the trip. People always get mad when someone else makes a profit. Don't. Being friendly means let the guy at the counter know when you are just looking and when you are buying. Don't dirty up the glass on every single display. Don't ask to see 40 guns just for the hell of it: a gunstore isn't the Children's Museum. Be a regular customer, you don't have to have the absoulte best price on every single gun every time. If a store treats you right go back, bring money and buy what you want there.


In the end the problem is that alot of gunstore suck but then so do alot of customers. We can bash the guy all we want for his $50 transfer fee but without knowing what kind of outfit he is running we really don't know if its fair or not. If everyone else in the area is charging $50 why shouldn't he. I think some of us have had enough bad expierences with bad stores that we may be taking some of that out on this guy. I figure that if he is a High Roader I'll give him the benifit of the doubt and assume that he is likely running or working for a well run, fair and friendly outfit.

If we want better service and prices what we all need to do is try to be better customers that support our local stores; the good ones that is. Keep in mind that most private gunstores can't give you the best prices everytime and if you take business away from them just because they can't give everything away for a song dosn't mean they are doing something wrong. Everytime you snub a store for offering a fair price you just make it harder for him sell something at a good price.

Sorry if this turned in to a rant. I need some sleep.

Zundfolge
February 19, 2007, 12:11 AM
$50 would be too high for the area I live in and would be considered a "go away" price (in other words, go away, we don't want your FFL transfer business).

As for transfers being "free money" thats a little ridiculous. The dealer has to expend time and effort (and a little liability...these are BATFE forums after all). However too many brick and mortar gun shops see mail order as stealing their business.

Some states also charge for the background check (they're trying to pass that crap here in CO) so I dunno where Ala Dan is, maybe they have a charge like that there.

It would seem to me that charging too much for transfers would ultimately be counter productive.

So what is the competition charging?

GreenFurniture
February 19, 2007, 12:13 AM
Koobah stated:

EDIT:
Greenfurniture, how do you justify your absolutely ridiculous statement, re: 'everything eventually comes through the store anyway', when that can't possibly be true for your store, however large and excellently established and lavishly financed; let alone for a small mom'n'pop in the Fourth Corner of Washington, which has trouble getting anything more esoteric than Mosin Nagant rifles?
Buying local is a good sentiment and one I follow if possible, but sometimes your needs simply cannot be met locally- in that case, if a local business can benefit from government regulation via a transfer fee, is it really such a big deal to have something shipped in?

Like Tamara said to me a couple of years ago, "A gun store is the spider in the middle of the web. No matter what you want, if you give it some time it will come in." I too thought this was nuts, but she was right. I've watched very closely and if someone is looking for something it will eventually come in. If the shop keeper doesn't know you're looking for a specific item chances are they'll pass on it and you'll still be sitting in Nowheresville Washington lamenting your situation. Take some initiative, make yourself happy.


I'm not against transfers. I love them to be honest. But as a long time business owner it amazes me how stupid people can be about certain things.

How much is your time worth? How much is it really costing you to transfer in a gun you might be able to find locally and *gasp* even save a buck or two after you really sit down and add up your true cost associated with the purchase.

swingset
February 19, 2007, 12:51 AM
Horrible business sense charging $50 for a transfer. There's no justification for it that compensates for what you LOSE.

A small minded businessman sees this interaction as work on your part, or a missed sale because you're transferring instead of selling.

A good businessman sees this exchange as a chance to sell your shop to a customer. You've got him in your store, you've got his attention for a few minutes, and you've got the chance to make a connection with him and find out what he's interested in, how you can sell to him (even if it's ammo for his new gun), and what accessories he may need. You can even tempt him with a sale instead of going the transfer route the next time around. You have what all advertising seeks to achieve - feet through the door. And, I'll bet you think transfers aren't good for you??

If you make this small transaction $50 when a small shop will charge $20 (or less), you have not only lost $50, but the customer's face in your shop.

Business 101, and you flunked.

(my FFL charges $15, and loves doing them)

Flyboy73
February 19, 2007, 01:12 AM
I would like to throw my 2 cents to this thread, since i was thinking of starting one anyways.

I went to my FFL who had charged me $25 and this year went to $35. Since i went into the store for my first transfer i have bought a gun and ammo.

I also had a gun i bought off Auction arms and need a FFL.

I found one local who will do it for $15.

Guess who got the business. If they had not raised there price, i would not have went elsewhere. And may not come back to there shop at all.

Has the workload of a transfer increased? what the reason for the increase?

Are you trying to get rid of doing them?

Brion

dogtown tom
February 19, 2007, 02:21 AM
My dad (eighty in June) was in the grocery business with Safeway for 40+ years. Retired in 1984 having only had two employers- US Army and Safeway.

His position involved merchandising & grocery supply for a 100+ store division.

Did you know that grocery stores LOSE $$$ EVERY time they sell a loaf of bread or a gallon of milk? Why in the world would they intentionally price two of the most commonly used staples in any household below their cost?

In the grocery business it's called a "loss leader". Cheap bread and cheap milk will get you into the store. They are well aware that once in for only a loaf of bread you stand a better than 90% chance of buying one other item. An item that they do make a profit on.

Look at the newspaper grocery ads. Notice how the SAME items appear on special week after week?

Notice how they arrange the stores now? Produce, bakery, meat departments first and dairy is a winding walk to the back of the store? It ain't an accident, it's merchandising.

I don't have a lot of love for Wal Mart. But I give them credit for being masters of merchandising. If it doesn't sell they discount it below cost just to get rid of it and clear shelf space for something new.

I went to the gunshow this weekend in Mesquite. Lot of tables. Lots of guns. The dealer selling the most (as always) Jeff Schramm. From what I can tell he doesn't have an actual store. Must have a dozen people working the show- most are paper pushers handling the 4473's. His prices are fair, and his selection at each show is in the hundreds. Twenty feet away is another "dealer" with one table and a NIB .40 FN Hi Power marked at $600. He's been trying to sell it for about a year. I bought mine from Schramm's for $400. One satisfied with a small profit per gun via many sales. The other looking to make one great sale. Who's the better businessman?

Professor K
February 19, 2007, 02:59 AM
50 is too much, for NFA transfers, it's OK, but I wouldnt do over 30 for a FFL transfer. My gun shop rext next to my house charges 25, which is good for CT.

I dont know about your particular shop, but the 50 dollar FFL fee would put me off going there.

You're getting people in your store. You have a chance to make them buy stuff. "But all people who buy guns online buy everything else online", that's kinda BS first off, and second, you can change that! People still buy stuff from brick and mortar stores, where do you get most of your food and clothing from? And second, you can change that they buy everything online.

Here's how, by talking to people! Now, while you do the transfer, you can ask questions like, "you want any ammo for this? We have X special on X ammo." Or, you can just ask him about guns and products he's interested in and then direct him to stuff you have. It's called social skills, and it seems a lot of gunstores lack it, and just stare blankly or not talk instead of striking up a conversation with their customers.

You could ask them where they buy ammo, ect. They'll prolly say online if they buy online, they dont really got any reason to lie. Then, what you can do is ask how much they pay, surprise, you might have some good deals for him! I've heard stories of people doing transfers on guns, then telling the person that he had one cheaper.

For accessories, like say you sell Wolf 7.62x39 for....180 dollars a case of 1000. The online store he goes to sells it for 160 a case, but wait, there's shipping, 1000 rounds of 7.62x39 is some heavy stuff, so add 20+ dollars on for that. All he has to pay for you is sales tax which is like 7-10 dollars, and he can walk out the door with it that day. Just emphasize the fact that he gets it the same day and stuff.

Hell, if you need to, you could artificially extend the time it takes to get stuff transferred so you could talk to your customers. I mean, unless your customer is a true gangsta n1gg4 souljah who needs his gat to cap some foos, you prolly wont have much to worry about if you take a little longer to give him some time to look at stuff in your shop or talk to him.

Also, you too can use the series of tubes to your advantage! Gunbroker, GunsAmerica, you could put all your stuff on there for free. You could make a website, it costs 100 dollars a year for a Dreamhost server with 200 gigs of webspace and 2 terabyes of bandwith, you could even make money renting out your FTP space to other sites. What do you think the big bad horrible sites online are? Guess what, they're brick and mortar FFLs, too! I dont think too many of them are entirely online.

As for "oh, if you want it it'll come to the gun shop eventually, just have patience." Wow..... What if the guy sees like a 1911 GI bringback with a cool story behind it, or an NFA item or whatever? What if a guy sees an old rifle a relative sold 30 years ago end up on gunbroker, will all this stuff just kind of eventually float into the gun shop? There's a chance it might, but it's relatively small. Why should he just wait for it eventually show up at a later date when he can get it now?

The other issue with that, is that different guns, even though they are the same model, are different. Some guns may have trigger work done to them, some guns may have different springs, ect. I think most of it, though, is someone takes a picture of that particular gun, and you like his particular gun, and you buy his particular gun. Maybe there's nothing different or remarkable about the gun at all, but you want that gun.

I guess that's all. Sorry for the long rant, I guess just keep FFL transfer fees low, as there's no reason to keep them high, unless you are a bad salesman, or have bad prices and selection on your stuff.

karz10
February 19, 2007, 05:31 AM
Another thing about the transfer fee, gun dealers vs. online, gun dealers vs walmart, etc.

One of the things some opinions leaning towards the gun dealer seems to assume that the gun dealer is a good gun dealer offering a value added service.

I've had some of the problems some have mentioned, not having the gun in stock, not having a particular package in stock, and yes, while they 'can' order it, again, if they're ordering one-off like that, they're basically charging me for shipping, a non-bulk wholesale plus mark-up, in come cases, and above average mark-up at that, and sales tax on the inflated price.

Anyway, the other thing is that in some cases, the dealer hasn't provided me a whole lot of service yet. I've asked questions, handled some HGs, and sometimes it seems like they can't wait to end the conversation.

If they've had to say more than a couple sentences about a gun, or God forbid explain the difference between 2 or more HGs, they just get tired. So, not only can I not try out the weapon in most stores, unless it happens to be a range, and not only are you $50-$100 more than your online, or in some cases neighboring, competition on a particular weapon, and not only are you going to charge me an inflated transfer fee, but you can't even offer me any real help in choosing the best weapon for me? You expect me to just walk in and buy the first thing you put in my hand? Or you expect me to do all my own research at other ranges, online, or whatever, and then when *I* figure out what I want, then I should come in and buy your overpriced handgun, or pay your transfer fee that's double what someone else is charging a few miles away?

PLEASE remember I'm not referring to ANYONE specifically on this thread, as I know nothing about YOUR businesses individually, but I'm hoping to shed some light on my personal experience in my area, YMMV

Again, I own a business, I have been guilty of giving 'free consulting' to prospective clients, only to have them shop me, and buy something else from somewhere else, sometimes to their own demise, as they didn't make a wise decision. I've felt remorse after spending time w/ someone who didn't buy from me. But what am I supposed to do? Sure I want to qualify my prospects to see if I have a chance at the business, but at the end of the day, it's their decision who they want to do business with, and it's my job to EARN their business.

People buy from people they like, and in my case, I haven't felt much more welcome at some of my 'truly' local shops than at a box store, I haven't received expert consultation, I haven't received much personal attention, I haven't received reasonable pricing or transfer options, so of course I'm going to look other places. I did have a little more luck at a range/dealer across the state line, but they are at a disadvantage to sell me because of geography, as someone stated as a result of the laws. The fact that they were across the line, only offering modest pricing (not aggressive), and that I'd have to pay tax, shipping, and FFL from them to here anyway, it's cost prohibitive for me to buy from them, but I will use their range, and probably buy a shotgun (I can do that over counter) from them, since they helped me. If I lived a stone's throw across the line, maybe I would by their HG.

But the local ones on this side of the line haven't done anything to earn my business. They didn't listen to me, they tried to show me things that didn't meet my request, they tried to show me way overpriced used guns, and showed no price flexibility on the guns I wanted to become remotely competitive. I even called ahead of time, and went there twice to look at some gun cabinets, but each time I got there 'right after the (mysterious) guy locked up the warehouse' so I couldn't see them, mind you this was an hour before closing time on both occasions, and I drove 25 minutes each way to get there.

I'm just saying that in my case, this isn't as simple as $25 difference in an FFL fee, sometimes there are other factors contributing to the customer's dissatisfaction.

Karz

k_dawg
February 19, 2007, 06:30 AM
IMHO: the correct price is where the dealer has enough people coming in for transfers as he wishes.

Koobuh
February 19, 2007, 07:30 AM
"Maybe it's free if the store has an employee standing around doing nothing, but if that employee can sell a gun instead of fooling with a transfer the store stands to make more money."
You make an interesting point here, then (quite appropriately) tear it to shreds in your next paragraph. A transfer indeed uses less employee time, and is a certain sale. Unlike in-stock merchandise, which often must be hawked aggressively.

To the store owners and employees willing to turn down FREE MONEY in favor of talking with old farts and then running out to the warehouse to show off yet another item to a prospective buyer, who may in fact simply be window-shopping, I address the following.

Your fixed costs (location, marketing, power, phone, employee salary, etc.) do not increase if you do transfers. They do not decrease if you do not do transfers.
Your sunk costs (licenses, equipment, etc.) are sunk, and will not change whether you sell one old winchester lever-action a month, or transfer fifteen mail order guns a day.
It costs you as much in fixed costs to sit in your shop all day, as it does to sell your entire inventory, as it does to transfer guns all day.
If you are doing a transfer, a customer will not walk in, see you're busy, and walk out rather than buy something, if they had planned on buying in the first place.
Let me make this perfectly clear- if you're not being run ragged by customers every second of every day (in which case, get some employees, you happy fool), you DO have time to do transfers. Not only that, the money you make from doing them is FREE. There are no associated costs with doing transfers, that have not already been sunk into your business licensing and other non-merchandise costs. You pay absolutely nothing to generate that revenue.

Note also, your business is not a car repair shop. Your time is not billed by the hour, it is a fixed cost of your business. Your time will cost the business the same amount, whether you spend it BSing with old farts, dusting cabinets, using the toilet, or making FFL transfers. Which of these activities earns the business money in the immediate term?

Also, I don't know what in blazes some of you think an average gun shop makes on selling guns, but I can tell you right now, it's not much. Competition is tight, and you will only occasionally sell a firearm at list price- far, far below list is standard pricing for firearms in competitive markets. Sometimes they are sold as 'loss leaders' to get people in the door.
I know, it's a little hard to wrap your head around, but a lot of retailers (Wal-Mart for example) will set prices below their cost on -some- items in order to bring in customers, who then buy -other- items whose prices have been padded a bit. Maybe a cleaning kit, or some ammo, whatever; a lot of retailers make their bread and butter on accessories, rather than the readerboard merchandise.
Point is, guns aren't a profitable product a lot of the time. Volume is your friend in that regard, as is repeat sales, and, most importantly, word of mouth advertising; these are what keep a private retailer afloat when they are in competitive economic regions.
When you have the option of getting what represents your profit margin on a low-to-mid priced piece of merchandise with almost no effort, business sense REQUIRES you to take full advantage, if not also competing aggressively ($10 transfers, as an example) for that business.


I shouldn't have to explain this to business owners or their employees, it's common sense based on accounting principles (fixed costs vs. variable costs, etc.) and marketing fundamentals.
People often say that gunshop owners are usually hobbyists first, business owners second, and I guess that bears out. :scrutiny:

logical
February 19, 2007, 08:08 AM
Charge whatever you want...the market will decide if it is fair or not.
I know of only one FFL within 100 miles of me that charges over $25 and that is a very high end "hunt club" that charges $6.00 for a coffee.
A $50 fee simply means that you just plain don't want to do them...which is just fine...or that you mistakenly believe it will cause people to buy at retail from you instead.

PigPen
February 19, 2007, 09:07 AM
When all this red tape came about, the FFLs in my area supported it. I will leave you to guess why.

When their services are utilized, they are astounded!! Their firearms prices are horrid! Their service is questionable. They are anxious to find fault with the other dealer.

I have found it expedient to let my gunsmith (also an FFL) handle the transaction......for $25.00.

The feds have turned us all on one another........some more than others.


PigPen

Ala Dan
February 19, 2007, 09:19 AM
This is what constituted the increase of all transfer fees, let me say to
begin with that we are a Steyr (Rifle) Master Dealer; with means literally
that we have hundreds of Steyr rifles in house, in all assorted calibers.
Steyr seems to be leading the rifle market with their price increases. In
the past year, they hiked their prices considerably on all models in their
line. The largest jump, being their Camo/Stainless Pro-Hunter model. So,
quite naturally we had to "mark up" our prices on these firearms.

What we have run into, is the fact that a firearm I sell for nearly 1K,
CDNN is selling for $699. Persons are buying them in droves, and having
them transferred in to our store. Plus, whether or not its widely known
Steyr can't seem to maintain a U.S. distributorship; as G.S.I. no longer
accepts that responsibility. Also, Steyr located in Austria is the leading
supplier of large caliber assault weapons being sold to Iran; and there-
fore being used by insurgents in Iraq to kill American service personel.
So, all these factors entering into the equation our owners decided to
increase the cost of firearms transfers into our store.

CajunBass
February 19, 2007, 09:49 AM
Green Top - U.S. 1 north of Richmond & south of Ashland

They're so busy they don't even do internet sales.

John

I wonder how I knew that?

Man that place has gotten a lot of my money. :D

I drove down from Fredericksburg to buy a holster just the other day.

mrcpu
February 19, 2007, 12:17 PM
Check me on this:


Also, Steyr located in Austria is the leading
supplier of large caliber assault weapons being sold to Iran; and there-
fore being used by insurgents in Iraq to kill American service personel.
So, all these factors entering into the equation our owners decided to
increase the cost of firearms transfers into our store.


So, if this is really your position, it's OK for your shop to support killing American service personal if you get retail for it, but it's a moral outrage if it's discounted...

I think there's a word for that, let me think... Oh yeah, hypocrisy...

Ala Dan
February 19, 2007, 12:27 PM
Att: mrcpu-

With all due respect, you are inserting YOUR own ideas into MY text~!:scrutiny:
I did not say ANY such NONSENSE that you are stating. I simply quoted
what appeared recently in a UK News article; and what has been our
experience with CDNN. :rolleyes: You can believe what you like, but
I'm sorry it won't change our position; as we are of the same opinion
as most Americans- We oppose the killing of U.S. service personel in
all countries; but we do uphold the President of The United
States in his decision to declare "War On Terror". :) ;)

No we DO NOT charge a background check fee; if there is one,
we absorb the cost ourselves. But HOLD everything, as I don't
think there is a fee here in Alabama. Maybe, some of you folks
are gett'in ripped this way by YOUR favorite dealer; I dont know?

mrcpu
February 19, 2007, 05:10 PM
You didn't attribute your quote to anybody, how else was I to know that it wasn't your opinion? Your name was attached to it, not anybody else's.

mpmarty
February 19, 2007, 06:20 PM
When I want a new firearm (three or so a year) I go to my favorite gun store and if they have it in stock I check the price and they tell me if I want to wait a few days they can order one in for me cheaper. This is my choice and sometimes I wait and sometimes I buy what is on the wall right then. Used firearms (two or three a year) I go to the same gun store, get a signed copy of their FFL and send it to the seller and have the seller ship to my local gun store. When the gun comes in the local store calls me, does the paperwork and charges a total of $10.00 for the process. They also have to charge for the background check the state forces on ALL firearm sales a fee of $10.00 so the total is $20.00 but if I bought local from the gun store I'd still have to pay the state fee of $10.00. Needless to say, bullets, powder, primers, scope rings, cleaning stuff, ALL gets bought at this store and I watch their inventory and when I spot a neat used rifle or pistol that I think someone I know would like I tell them about it and encourage them to go look. Most times my matchmaking takes hold and the store makes another sale. I support this store and they seem to appreciate it.

bamawrx
February 19, 2007, 06:42 PM
Ala Dan,

Do what I did and find someone else to do your transfers. Simple as that. The free market will take care of the rest.

bamawrx

Lupinus
February 19, 2007, 06:54 PM
That's the dumbest business move I have ever heard of, no offense but really it is.

Consider this. How much profit do you make on that nearly 1k rifle? Ok good, more then 25 bucks so on that end it makes more sense to try and make them buy it from you. However, that is only considering half of the equation. You still have the other guy selling his rifles for 699. You think that people will pay your 300 dollars more to buy from you? Or they will shell out the extra 25 bucks when they can likely buy the rifle for 699 and have the transfer done elsewhere for cheaper. If you do the transfer for 25 you are at least getting them in the door and as others have said that is when you make your sales. Accessories, ammo, cases, scopes, etc. Now you don't have them in and they are buying squat from you. Less profit is better then no profit.

As someone else said many stores sell bread and milk at a loss. My job sells newspapers at cost, so when you figure in our time to stock and sell them we loose money on them to. But where do we make money? On the candy bar they buy, on the pack of smokes, on the bottle of soda and chips they get, etc. So we take a loss on the paper, and make money cause the paper got them in the door. They don't get in the door we don't make money.

MudPuppy
February 19, 2007, 06:58 PM
It does sound like it would be much smarter to order that same rifle for $699 and go somewhere to get a $10 xfer (instead of spending 1k).



(I do think it's a little sleazy to insinuate the killing of Americans is condoned by Ala Dan...)

Zundfolge
February 19, 2007, 07:10 PM
Charge whatever you want...the market will decide if it is fair or not.

Nail. Head. SMACK!

we are a Steyr (Rifle) Master Dealer...

What we have run into, is the fact that a firearm I sell for nearly 1K,
CDNN is selling for $699.

Chances are that firearm you sell for $1K that CDNN is selling for $699 cost you more than $699. That's a temporary situation. Steyr Arms liquidated its entire inventory (which means you're not getting any new rifles from them right now).

Steyr is an odd situation because the company is going through some stuff and you guys got the dirty end of the stick here.


At any rate, I point again to the post I quoted above. Its the market that will determine if this is a good idea or not ... in addition to what the rest of the market is charging, if your shop is coming up with innovative "Value Added" stuff then people will pay the $50 even if you're higher than others.

CDignition
February 19, 2007, 07:25 PM
I don't see why theres such a pissing contest here... Let them charge what they want...if its too high, they wont get the business.

Ala Dan
February 19, 2007, 07:33 PM
Hats off to Mud Puppy and Zundfolge

Many thanks for all the insight fella's, I appreciate the comments very much.
Yes, Steyr firearms will NEVER occupy a space in my safe; for the very reason
I quoted. And YES, they did dump their dirty laundry right in the middle of our
shop. However, we also are a Browning Medallion Dealer and also handle a
complete line of Remington, Weatherby, Ruger, and Tika (Sako), rifles. We
also have a few Benelli centerfire rifles. Plus, we are a full line Beretta dealer
as well. And, I won't even mention my favorite- The Handguns~!:scrutiny: ;) :D

If I slighted or overlooked someone, I apologize as I wrote this in
a hurry. Green Furniture is one I know of, and my hats off to him
as well. Maybe we will see the light, and reduce the transfer fee?

45Badger
February 19, 2007, 08:06 PM
Maybe we will see the light, and reduce the transfer fee?

That would be nice. Getting a nice model 15 IS nice at $300 delivered to FFL, and $315 out the door. At $350, it's OK, not as nice.

Maybe targeting your specific problem with a specific solution might be better for business all around. If a manufacturer refuses to maintain pricing discipline in its go to market strategy, they will KILL your business. I'd refuse Steyr transfers, dump my inventory, never buy another, and beat my distributor rep over the head for the grief he caused me.

As my 11 year old says, "Peace out, man":cool:

GreenFurniture
February 19, 2007, 08:19 PM
Here is a question.

How many of you understand the difference between someone who transfers in a Glock 19 and someone who transfers in a first generation Colt SAA?

If someone is coming in to transfer a firearm which is readily available in the store I say they should pay the premium (as well as have their head examined for missing parts).

If someone is coming to transfer a firearm which is an antique or no longer produced then by all means they should be extended a courtesy and charged a reasonable fee for the transaction. $25 or so.

The thing I think most people in this thread are missing is the huge number of people who transfer weapons to FFLs that they could have just bought there at the store and even saved a ton of money!

That's the problem.

thumper723
February 19, 2007, 08:33 PM
GreenFurniture,

I will reply to your last post. No I do not need my head examined, I just had my flight physical last month. They examined more than enough things, I assure you..

Gun in question: 4" Blued Ruger GP100 357 Mag.

Local Shop. After going back and forth on price $581 OTD, and I would have to wait. Not in stock.

Bud's Gun Shop: $398. Tack on $25 for shipping and $50 for an obscene FFL fee, and I am at $473. Still saving $108 by ordering and having it shipped.

How am I stupid or needing my head examined. I would pay $500 ($27 more) to have there and now, but not $108 to have to wait just as long..

JohnBT
February 19, 2007, 08:39 PM
"How many of you understand the difference between someone who transfers in a Glock 19 and someone who transfers in a first generation Colt SAA?"

Me!!! One of them has good taste in guns. ;)

Meanwhile, I keep reflecting on the fact that the cheapest blackjack game on the Atlantic City Boardwalk on a Friday is $25 a hand. Well, that's what it was the last time I was there - maybe it's higher now. $25 here, $25 there, pretty soon you'll have enough to take a date out for dinner and a movie. Now $25 will hardly buy you 5 cups of whatever it is Starbucks claims is coffee.

John

thumper723
February 19, 2007, 08:41 PM
Yeah, but to those of us who are not independently wealthy, $25 is couple boxes of ammo.

Nevermind the $100+ saved after all fees on my example..

GreenFurniture
February 19, 2007, 08:43 PM
So what you are saying that your time and automotive expenses are worth nothing?

thumper723
February 19, 2007, 08:49 PM
Not following you on that GreenFurniture..

GreenFurniture
February 19, 2007, 08:56 PM
Just asking what your time is worth.

How much time do you have invested in the purchase of the firearm?

Did you send in the FFL? Or did they?

How many miles to this FFL from your starting point (home,office)?

These are all very valid and important questions when figuring out how much you really paid for that transfer.

thumper723
February 19, 2007, 09:26 PM
Oh, in that case,

I gave the address. They have them on file. No need to send.

I was there to use the range anyways.

It is 3 miles out of my way if I am going to NAS Corpus, and on the way if I have to go out to Kingsville.

Maybe a 1/2 hour total time invested beyond normal purchase. Since I get paid a flat rate by .gov a month (military) My free time is spent how I see fit.

Oh yeah, my time is worth $200+ per hour..

Their FFL fee is $20, $10 for Military and LE.

They said if you can get it cheaper elsewhere, we will be more than glad to do the transfer. They can beat anyone on GLOCK and are damn competitive on Springfield Armory from what I saw. So if I have a need for one of those, I will buy local.

Also, the 8.25% tax is beyond their control, but they could not get within 20%

Ala Dan
February 19, 2007, 09:29 PM
thumper 723 said:

Quote:

"$25 is a couple boxes of ammo"~!:scrutiny:

I say, Sir it depends on what kind'a ammo? The high 20's might cover
one box of Remington Core-Lok in .270 or '06; but it won't cover the
the cost of a box of Hornady Custom or Winchester Silvertips.

GreenFurniture
February 19, 2007, 09:33 PM
Oh, in that case,

I gave the address. They have them on file. No need to send.

I was there to use the range anyways.

It is 3 miles out of my way if I am going to NAS Corpus, and on the way if I have to go out to Kingsville.

Maybe a 1/2 hour total time invested beyond normal purchase. Since I get paid a flat rate by .gov a month (military) My free time is spent how I see fit.

Oh yeah, its worth $230 and hour..

Their FFL fee is $20, $10 for Military and LE.

They said if you can get it cheaper elsewhere, we will be more than glad to do the transfer.

So you're saying that you invested roughly an hour of time and $30 dollars of car expenses to have a firearm transfered.

So, that's $260 + transfer fee.

Well, so you've really only lost $162 doing it that way.

But what does that matter to a guy who is making $478,000k + a year?

thumper723
February 19, 2007, 09:36 PM
Heck no I am not PAID at that much an hour..

I make $50K a year.

It is worth the 1/2 hour of my life to save ~$120.

$30 for car expensed? What the heck car cost $30 to drive 6 miles?

Not my F250, and definitley not my Motorcycle..

fog
February 19, 2007, 09:41 PM
ok so i read this whole thread and here is my 2 cents worth
i live in a very small town in the midwest
i got tired of getting treated like crap at the big town gun shop and how they knew more than i did and they knew what i wanted better than i did
so......
i got my OWN FFL !!
i started my own little part time gun shop no inventory of guns but i do carry some ammo and cleaning supplies and i do take a trade every now and again
my best customers are guys who dont want to go to the big city to get stuff
i usually try and get a group order to gether so we all can save on shipping

by the way i charge $25 over actual cost as my profit per gun(gun shipping & tax)
i charge $25 for transfers too. it costs here in illinois $2 a background check
so now i am making enough money selling and transfering guns to support my gun buying
just a different angle for some of you

GreenFurniture
February 19, 2007, 09:44 PM
Heck no I am not PAID at that much an hour..

I make $50K a year.

It is worth the 1/2 hour of my life to save ~$120.

$30 for car expensed? What the heck car cost $30 to drive 6 miles?

Not my F250, and definitley not my Motorcycle..

I'm just going on the information you posted and then edited to reflect a $30.00 an hour reduction and now you're claiming to only make 50k a year. Interesting.

The $30 figure is based upon the standard cost of vehicle operation. Seeing now that you have the same vehicle I have, an F-250 I would have to adjust the original number to be $45 since it gets about 9mpg.

If you're on your motorcycle, which I can only assume is a single piston dual sport based on your screen name, you're going to see a higher depreciation but lower fuel cost which would about equal out the equation.

Now if you're on a Harley, well, that would only cover the oil you lost on the way to wherever you were going! ;)

CZ 75 BD
February 19, 2007, 10:10 PM
Was that your photo in the Sunday paper, bro?

CDignition
February 19, 2007, 10:14 PM
AAH...I see now why the high fee... you want to stop folks from undercutting your sucky high prices by buying online for much less...you would rather have then come to your store and pay 30% more... the best thing a dealer like you can do is just stop taking any transfers at all.

Me, I like to not waste my time in driving all over town, getting frustrated at not finding what I want without getting raped by legal criminals, I would rather save that time and buy online and have it shipped in...no wannabe know-it-alls trying to sell me on something I don't want...

OR, you could try and charge a percentage of the book value of the gun that is being transferred..just think what money you would make on that first run SAA transfer..you could close early that day :rolleyes:

Ala Dan
February 19, 2007, 10:55 PM
ATT: CZ 75 BD My Friend-

Yep, that was yours truly in the concealed handgun article; but the text
quote was from my co-hort Jerry Sellers~!;) :D

GreenFurniture
February 19, 2007, 10:57 PM
You would rather have then come to your store and pay 30% more

Most gun stores don't have that high of a mark up on their new inventory.

My store's markup runs right at 6.3%.

22-rimfire
February 19, 2007, 11:17 PM
Green Furniture, I like your store. What seperates you from the others is that you carry used guns (read collector guns) and that makes all the difference to me. But I also shop at Legends and Benton Shooters. Their prices run about the same, give or take. The drive is nice too if there is nothing pressing going on. Runs out to Bass Pro are fun too. I always spend money there and rarely for firearms. Gander Mt, well, I enjoy looking. :)

You asked about the value of my time?? ZERO, just ask the IRS.

I don't get all bent out of shape on $20 on a $800 gun. But, $100 would push me somewhere else as long as I could buy it there. Stores that charge higher transfer fees are usually the ones that charge more for their firearms.

skinnyguy
February 19, 2007, 11:26 PM
I can't say how fair this price increase would be. I am not an FFL holder, so I don't know what kind of work goes into a transfer. I'm not in AL, so I won't be using this particular FFL dealer in any event.

But think about this, the dealer is raising their FFL fee as they see fit, and they are letting the public using their services know about it! This is treating their customer base better than any phone company, utilities provider, airline, cab company, grocery store, or ANY business I've encountered over my life.

If you don't like it, go elsewhere, if you like honesty and customer service, then support these people!!!

GreenFurniture
February 19, 2007, 11:30 PM
22-Rimfire:

Thanks for the kind words. We try to keep enough guns in stock to satisfy the appetite of just about anyone who might wander in.

We'll never charge more than what we charge currently unless the economy dictates. Hell, we wouldn't even charge $100 for an NFA transfer.

MudPuppy
February 19, 2007, 11:43 PM
The majority of my transfers are in the $50 to $80 range, so I really hate paying more than $5-10 bucks.

Ala Dan
February 20, 2007, 07:21 AM
Att: skinnyguy My Friend-

A tip of the ole' hat too you Sir; and many thanks for the kind words~!

We have always tried too run our business with lots of integrity, gratitude,
respect, and customer appreciation; just like the founding fathers before us.
We would NEVER do anything out of spite, bitterness, jealousy, etc. to
hurt anyone, or anyone's business. Thats just not our style. We have a
rather large fan base of support, that we have built through many years
of trust, sales, and service to our loyal customers. We have been in the
same location since the very early 1900's. We aim too please, as we take
each transaction to the heart.

BTW, where else can you buy a firearm and eat a bowl of HOT homemade
chilli with the owner? Fact is, its not an everyday occurrence but it has
happened several times over the past few years. Last occurrence was on
Saturday, 17 Feburary '07~!;) :D

redranger1
February 20, 2007, 07:48 AM
Im in the process of having an AR shipped to me and while i was looking for an FFL holder to do a transfer most of the guys offered it for $20. There was one shop that said it would be $90 or 10% of what i paid for the gun which ever is greater! :what: Thats the last time ill ever visit that shop! I realize that people have to make money but sheesh, no point in gouging customers. Honestly, its no wonder gun shops are becoming fewer and fewer.

GreenFurniture
February 20, 2007, 07:54 AM
here was one shop that said it would be $90 or 10% of what i paid for the gun which ever is greater!

How many ARs did he have for sale in the store?

eoR
February 20, 2007, 10:35 AM
My store's markup runs right at 6.3%.

If you arrived at the 6.3% using the same math you used to come up with a $7.50/mile "standard cost of vehicle operation", you might want to have someone else check your figures.

JD0608
February 20, 2007, 10:50 AM
i`m constantly amazed by dealers who try and get rich on doing a gun transfer. i charge a flat $15.00 transfer fee, no matter what you pay for your gun. 5 minutes to do paperwork that comes out to a pretty good hourly pay.
the way i see it if you start out treating your customers right it will pay off in the long run..

45Badger
February 20, 2007, 11:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by redranger1
here was one shop that said it would be $90 or 10% of what i paid for the gun which ever is greater!

How many ARs did he have for sale in the store?

Irrelevant, from many points of view.

1) Not the consumer's problem

2) Consumer won't have a chance to find out because the transfer fee scared/pissed him off

The ONLY party that this would have any relevance to is the dealer. The dealer in this case has NO leverage and has not demonstrated ANY value proposition. I guess relevance is purely his to enjoy as he looks at his inventory, and does not think about the consume he just drove off.

As the guy with the money in hand to purchase a gun, I DO NOT CARE if you have 1000 ARs in stock if they are not the ones I want to buy, or are not priced at what I (the consumer, with the money) think is a fair value. Those kind of fees chase me (and my consumer money) out the door, with little likelihood of returning.

Maybe you don't need my business, that's fine. The good news about a free market is that usually somebody will meet demand at a better price/value point.

Rant, rant, rant...... I guess this is why I buy mostly used guns:D

Headless
February 20, 2007, 12:35 PM
The only local place that charges 50$ for a transfer has some really great deals! Like...50 round boxes of cci blazer .40 for only 20$!!! 50 round boxes of 9mm magtech FMJ for only 14.95!!! 325 round boxes of .22 federal ammo for only 20$!!! Used beretta 96's for only 699$!!! Used inox 96's for only 799$!!! Geez i can't believe i don't spend all of my money there.

TL;DR prices on transfers usually reflect just how worthless the rest of a stores' prices are. Most people i know wouldn't even bother walking in a store that has a flat rate 50$ transfer per gun.

gyp_c2
February 20, 2007, 12:38 PM
...hellz bellz...what we really need to do is get rid of the damn transfers period...
suckstobe past '68...:scrutiny:

Pepper46
February 20, 2007, 07:44 PM
As a business owner, I also work hard for my money, and I spend a heck of a lot of it to make it.
I don't suppose you would tell your boss to keep a day of your pay because you didn't work quite as hard today as you did yesterday.
Everyting is relative, if you don't like the pay hike, use someone else who doesn't value their time, or doesn't have the overhead to support.
JMHO

punkkin
February 20, 2007, 08:46 PM
This all makes me happy my local ffl charges 15 bucks, and has for years.

Ala Dan
February 20, 2007, 08:54 PM
Way to go there my friend, my synopsis also~!;)

GreenFurniture
February 20, 2007, 09:14 PM
If you arrived at the 6.3% using the same math you used to come up with a $7.50/mile "standard cost of vehicle operation", you might want to have someone else check your figures.

I arrived at that because that's what it is.

As far as the cost for vehicle operation you're clearly not taking the tire wear, oil consumption, fuel cost and rate of consumption, depreciation of the vehicle for every mile put on it and the other tangible, real world expenses and costs.

cigolon
February 20, 2007, 09:20 PM
50 dollar transfer fee? heh. no thanks. that reminds me of the guy around here who tried to tell me he charges a 10% fee. i told him to have a nice day and went to the guy i've been with since. 20-25 is fair. it doesn't take long and it isn't a hassle.

50 bucks? heh. forget that. you dont do enough in the process to make it worth it for me. it doesn't matter what the gun is or how much it costs, that doesn't have anything to do with you. you aren't selling the gun or charging a premium based on the type of gun. you are providing a steady service of paperwork.

thumper723
February 20, 2007, 09:24 PM
As far as the cost for vehicle operation you're clearly not taking the tire wear, oil consumption, fuel cost and rate of consumption, depreciation of the vehicle for every mile put on it and the other tangible, real world expenses and costs.

So my 1999 F-250 Super Duty with 125,000 miles has cost

$937,590

to operate since it was new???

I assure you, with maintenance, tires, insurance, it did NOT cost me $8000+ to drive to Corpus Christi from Jacksonville..

GreenFurniture
February 20, 2007, 09:27 PM
Clearly Thumper doesn't understand basic economy.

Must be home schooled.

thumper723
February 20, 2007, 09:32 PM
Please explain how that $7.50 a mile is justified..

My parents own a trucking company. If we could GROSS $7.50 a mile loaded for a Semi, we would be doing VERY well. We get far less than that, and make a profit.

Please enlighten me as to how it costs $7.50 a mile to operate a normal personal conveyance.

cigolon
February 20, 2007, 09:33 PM
payments per mile is generally around .45 cents, not anything in the dollars. that includes general vehicle wear as it is prescribed by the IRS for governmental use. while thats the gov ceiling as of last summer 06' for reimbursement, it's not far above that in overall costs. thats actually quite costly if you consider how quickly it adds up.

ETA:
anyone who says its 7.50 a mile is being delusional.
https://secureapp2.hqda.pentagon.mil/perdiem/faqmilea.html

The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) establishes a tax ceiling on reimbursement for travel by car. The General Services Administration (GSA) then sets the mileage reimbursement rate for Federal employees and uniformed members at or below that ceiling. Currently the $.445/mile rate is at the ceiling established by the IRS.

thumper723
February 20, 2007, 09:40 PM
I got paid $0.15 a mile to drive my vehicle on PCS orders. Yes, 15 CENTS a mile. And it covers expenses..

Heck, for $7.50 a mile, I can damn near drop off anything that will fit in the cabin anywhere you need it with a SH-60B. At cruise speed that works out to $3.00 a mile for fuel, and we are talking a large twin engine turbine powered helicopter..

45Badger
February 20, 2007, 10:08 PM
Me thinks the gubmint rate is $.4450 per mile this year............

Soybomb
February 20, 2007, 10:29 PM
Far too many "customers" take advantage of an FFL by abusing the ability to transfer out of courtesy.
How is it taking advantage? I don't go to my gunstore for advice, buying help, or to fondle the guns. They are making $25 for a little time on paperwork. They can take it or leave it.

GreenFurniture
February 20, 2007, 10:35 PM
You're not taking a lot of factors into account.

I'm not here to give a lecture on economics, the tax code or anything else (but I might want to think about having a seminar for a few of you.)

scurtis_34471
February 20, 2007, 10:39 PM
The local gun shop where I just did a transfer charges $35 for new guns and $25 for used guns, plus $5 for NICS. There are some pawn shops that will do it for $25, but I know I can trust these guys and think that's worth the extra $10.

Kenneth Lew
February 20, 2007, 10:58 PM
Most gun stores don't have that high of a mark up on their new inventory.

My store's markup runs right at 6.3%.

How do you keep the doors open with such a low margin on products.

BTW, if every in my area starts charging $50 per transfer, I'll spend the money for a FFL and incorporate into my business (margin here is 20%-30%cost me nothing but my time, overhead already figured in and charge $25 and get all the business here.

cigolon
February 20, 2007, 11:06 PM
greenfurniture,

i dont know where the heck you're pulling this dream number of over seven dollars per mile on vehicle wear, but its crap.

http://www.aaapublicaffairs.com/Assets/Files/2006328123200.YourDrivingCosts2006.pdf

according the AAA the cost per mile of a large sedan with a low yearly total travel rate is still less than a dollar a mile. those numbers mesh pretty well with the pentagon's explanation of IRS costs so it seems like my numbers have some good backing to them.

thumper723
February 20, 2007, 11:28 PM
I'm not personally bashing anyone,

But if someone told me it cost $7.50 a mile to operate my pickup truck, when that number is insane. Heck, even if I "paid" myself $100 per hour, and figured that into the cost per mile, it would not even be close.

And the same person told me it cost me ~$190 dollars to save ~$100 by getting a pistol transferred through a local FFL for less than $50, I would seriously question their accounting skills..


WHAT THE HECK MATH DID THEY TEACH YOU IN SCHOOL?

And how often do you get audited by the IRS?

GreenFurniture
February 20, 2007, 11:40 PM
How do you keep the doors open with such a low margin on products.

Everything on the floor, including the floor have been paid for 100%. We finance nothing. We also deal in high volume, we are in the top 5 of dealers in the state. In addition we also offer several instructional courses, full line gunsmithing, custom coatings and finishing, an indoor range and we build custom weaponry for LEO/Gov't.

I started the company five years ago with $500 and a 19 year old rookie employee in an unmarked building on a side street of a small town. Business was good. Two years later we moved into the location of the oldest gun store in the area.

greenfurniture,

i dont know where the heck you're pulling this dream number of over seven dollars per mile on vehicle wear, but its crap.

http://www.aaapublicaffairs.com/Asse...gCosts2006.pdf

according the AAA the cost per mile of a large sedan with a low yearly total travel rate is still less than a dollar a mile. those numbers mesh pretty well with the pentagon's explanation of IRS costs so it seems like my numbers have some good backing to them.

Yes, yes, yes. I could pull up a number of links to support my case as well, but the basic fact is that many of them don't factor in many of the variable. My figure combines the true cost, which includes the average wage earned by those doing the driving, annual time spent driving and so on. It's quite easy to wrap your mind around it if you would only stop being so myopic.

I'm not personally bashing anyone,

But if someone told me it cost $7.50 a mile to operate my pickup truck, when that number is insane. Heck, even if I "paid" myself $100 per hour, and figured that into the cost per mile, it would not even be close.

And the same person told me it cost me ~$190 dollars to save ~$100 by getting a pistol transferred through a local FFL for less than $50, I would seriously question their accounting skills..


WHAT THE HECK MATH DID THEY TEACH YOU IN SCHOOL?

And how often do you get audited by the IRS?

This coming from the guy who claimed to make in excess of $450,000 a year and later backed down to $50k a year when confronted?

The cost to transfer your weapon, based upon the figures that YOU gave me proved my point that you actually LOST money on the transaction. This is nothing new and people do it every single day. My purpose it to educate these people so in the future they will have a gun store to buy from.

redranger1
February 20, 2007, 11:54 PM
GreenFurniture, the man did not have one AR in stock. And even if he did im pretty sure he was not going to sell me the gun i bought for a couple hundred off of msrp along with the 1000 rounds of ammo i also got in the deal. The sad truth is i believe that alot of guns shops are pricing themselves out of business. Ive always believed in selling a higher quantity at a better value then a less quantity at a higher price. And when you provide excellent service, word spreads, and fast.

Speaking of which i would like to thanks Paul Phillips at mscfirearms.com. He helped me with my first purchase over the internet and was top notch to talk to and deal with. I highly recommend him for anybodies transaction needs in the northern Illinois area.

GreenFurniture
February 21, 2007, 12:04 AM
he sad truth is i believe that alot of guns shops are pricing themselves out of business. Ive always believed in selling a higher quantity at a better value then a less quantity at a higher price. And when you provide excellent service, word spreads, and fast.

You are exactly right.

Flyboy73
February 21, 2007, 12:38 AM
My question is why are the shops raising the transfer cost? The place i Used to deal with(I will no longer shop there), went up to $35 from $25. I just found a place for $15.

Are they trying to get rid of people doing the transfers or just trying to squeeze a some more money out of people. I am sure the cost of the transfer hasn't changed. I can see raising the cost if your costs go up. But is is worth losing loyal customers over.

Brion

22-rimfire
February 21, 2007, 02:08 AM
The new gun business in East Tennessee is fairly competitive. I believe the 6.3% margin is probably correct on new guns. There are a number of stores that sell lots of guns and they do it with good customer service and moderate prices. I'm sure the margin is considerably higher on accessories since people don't scrutinize those prices so carefully.

eoR
February 21, 2007, 02:32 AM
So GreenFurniture, does the lack of integrity that you have exhibited here with your half-truths and misrepresentations extend to your business as well?



Thumper, don't waste any more of your time trying to have a rational discussion with GreenFurniture. Like the old saying goes: "Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."

JShirley
February 21, 2007, 04:16 AM
This entire thread was really off-topic, and it's done.

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