[1911Tuner]

This question comes up a lot, so I thought a thread may be in order. To slingshot or to thumb the release. The answer lies in studying the angles. I've often said that a careful and logical study of a design can often reveal the designer's intent. So le'ts have a look.

Notice that the rear angle of the slide stop is 90 degrees, as is the corresponding notch in the slide, while the front is roughly 60. Those 60 degree angles act as camming surfaces. Lock the slide manually, and then pull it rearward to see them at work.

Logic will dictate that when the thumb release method is employed against the two 90 degree angles at the rear, wear and radiusing of the corners will be a natural consequence. Over time, the wear at the front will have little effect on the function, while wear at the rear could possibly compromise the locking
operation.

So...What was the intent? It looks like the user was given a choice in the matter, depending on need. If the exercise is casual, and there is no pressing need for a fast return to battery, the slingshot release will prevent undue and unnecessary wear on the related parts. When the need for speed outweighs all other considerations, the thumb release is there.

Careful study of Browning's designs reveal that he was one
sharp cookie.

Counterpoints?

[BevrFevr]

What the hell are you talking about?

-bevr

[WJR]

1911Tuner,

Thank you for the insight. I often practice both methods, but find myself using the sling shot more and more.

Does anyone find any great benefit in using one method over the other in training? The only thing I have found is that if I have a failure to feed properly or return to battery, it will occur with the slingshot, not the thumb the release method.

Your posts are great food for thought.

Thank you,

WJR

[Chris Rhines]

My method of rapid reloading lends itself to a thumb release. After seating the magazine, my left thumb is resting right on the slide stop. Very fast, surer than a slingshot.

However, this is for me and my guns, maybe not for you and yours. Practice against a timer and see for yourself.

- Chris

[1911Tuner]

Please re-read...

So...What was the intent? It looks like the user was given a choice in the matter, depending on need. If the exercise is casual, and there is no pressing need for a fast return to battery, the slingshot release will prevent undue and unnecessary wear on the related parts. When the need for speed outweighs all other considerations, the thumb release is there.


Cheers!
T

[obiwan1]

Our agency teaches to slingshot only. The theory is that it is fully ambi and will work with any pistol--even pocket pistols without a slide release (like the PPK). This, of course, assumes both hands are functioning. "Officer down" drills are something else.;)

[1911Tuner]

Excellent point obiwan! Kudos...

T

[stevelyn]

What obiwan1 said goes for our agency too. Also it is the method taught and advocated by the Glock armorer class. The slingshot method helps ensure the slide falls fully into battery when chambering a round from slidelock.

[Old Fuff]

1911Tuner is right, particularly in his observations about John Browning. Anyone and everyone who uses the Government Model pistol (in whatever style) should study the histoy of its development starting in 1900. It will soon becomes clear that the inventor knew what he was doing, and when he did something he did it for a reason, usually a good one.

Today, in too many cases we load up our pistols with gadgets and accessories of questionable merit. Then one reads endless posts about how the gun is "unreliable."

1911Tuner has obviously done his homework. If someone doesn't understand what he is saying, some productive study on they're part might be in order.

Oh, and yes .... Browning expected users to usually use the "slingshot" method to drop the slide. "New Technique" users may not want too do this, but they need to understand the consequences of "thumbing the slidestop" and as a result early replacement of that part may be necessary.

[Handy]

I would suggest comparing the engagement surfaces of the slide and slide lock with the engagement surfaces or the sear and hammer hooks.


The sear hammer hook engagement is tiny, and receives friction wear on every shot.

The slide release is massive by comparison, and receives wear (if used as a release) once every 7 shots.


Is it really logical to conclude that a slide release should quickly wear out compared to other parts in the gun? If it does, what does that say about the relative construction of those parts?

[BigG]

I would like to quote Old Fuff's last post in its entirety as it is classic but this part tickled me as most appropos:

1911Tuner has obviously done his homework. If someone doesn't understand what he is saying, some productive study on they're part might be in order. That observation is absolutely the final summation on these mechanical operating principles threads. I am going to leave this one lie! :D

[1911Tuner]

Old Fluff...Seems that you and I may have had the same
homework assignment. It's been a hoot, ain't it?

See if you can find a way to explain to Handy the mechanics of
proper timing during the barrel linkdown. I've been trying to
plow the ocean on that thread...:rolleyes:

Take care, and come on up and drink some coffee with an
old man sometime.

Tuner

[Old Fuff]

I’ve been working on this particular “homework assignment” for over a half century, and yes, it’s been fun. Some of what I know came from books and the rest from hands-on experience. Of course I’m still learning, and your posts are both illustrative and informative.

As you probably know Colt had some problems with the slide’s slidestop notch penning and rounding at the bottom/rear corner. During World War Two so-called “soft slides” were spot hardened in this area. With the introduction of “hard slides” after the war spot hardening was discontinued, but the problem didn’t go away. I have inspected lots of pistols where the upper/rear corner of the slidestop had rounded off and was matched with a similar rounding of the lower/rear face or corner on the notch in the slide. If and when this happened, and the stop didn’t fully engage in the notch the slide would sometimes go into battery after the last shot rather then lock open. I see posts concerning this “failure to lock open after the last shot” with all kinds of explanations, but seldom any mention of the slidestop/slide notch condition.

Nowadays people install(?) “match barrels” that cam on the slidestop pin to lock into battery, or replace the standard barrel link with a “long one.” When properly done by a skilled and experienced armorer or pistolsmith this usually works, but if it’s done by anyone else the results can be catastrophic. I don’t know how you can explain these things to people who don’t have the foggiest idea of how the pistol works, how it came to be and how Browning and Colt developed it.

Jeff Cooper (who I count among my friends) once told me that they’re were a few (very few) modifications one should make to the pistol, cosmetic modifications, which one could make that wouldn’t interfere with the way the pistol worked but might better adapt it to a particular person, and a long list of things that should NEVER be done. I treasure his advise.

[1911Tuner]

I hear ya! It's been nearly 40 years for me. I've seen'em
do everything but stand on their hind legs and bark...
and you'd be surprised at the number of knowledgeable
people who don't have a full handle on how the thing works.

The "Area Hardening" that you mentioned is what caused the
GI frames to be two-toned...but you knew that already...Makes a
lot of folks thing that there's something wrong with the slide,
or that it's a rewelded unit.

Always good to talk to an old hand. Not many of us left.

Take care and keep your powder dry...
Tuner

[Penforhire]

One argument against slingshot-under-fire is the POSSIBILITY the stop does not retract as designed. I agree thumbing it causes stop wear but it also positively displaces the stop downward.

Years ago I got into the habit of the slingshot and that habit probably would have carried over into SD situations. I now look back on that training as a mistake.

[1911Tuner]

No question that the thumb release is both more positive and
faster...That's why the checkering or serrations are there.
During casual practice, it's better to pamper the old girl a bit though. Wear on the back of the stop can cause it to fail
to lock the slide...which isn't a big deal for me anyway, because
I stress-fire practice by reloading with the slide in battery.

Cheers!
T

[Old Fuff]

I believe, having been told by a well-known expert in the field and former high-ranking Marine officer - that one should practice exchanging a loaded magazine for an empty one while the last round is still in the chamber. This makes dropping the slide by any method a moot point. But gee, what do I know. The Old Fuff will now take his Teddy Bear and go sit in the corner ...

[firestar]

All the competition shooters I have seen use the thumb release because it is much quicker. It is good enough for them so how can I argue? I figure they put that lever on the gun for SOME reason! Why is this even a question?

[Rival]

Originally posted by Handy: I would suggest comparing the engagement surfaces of the slide and slide lock with the engagement surfaces or the sear and hammer hooks.


The sear hammer hook engagement is tiny, and receives friction wear on every shot.

The slide release is massive by comparison, and receives wear (if used as a release) once every 7 shots.


Is it really logical to conclude that a slide release should quickly wear out compared to other parts in the gun? If it does, what does that say about the relative construction of those parts?

The sear and hammer are made to be tougher than slide. The slide is much softer, and wears out easier.

[1911Tuner]

The Old Hand nailed it. The detachable box magazine gives
us the ability to reload the piece on a hot chamber.
I've always looked at an empty pistol with a locked slide
as a stoppage, and nothing more. Stoppages in a life/death
thing can get you dead...but as has been oft-noted by
those of us who have seen the elephant:

"Anything that you do can get you killed...and that includes
doing the right thing."

Semper Fi!
Tuner

[Chris Rhines]

1911Tuner -

First off, I should state up front that my pistol of choice is the CZ-75. I don't at present own a 1911.

I use the slide release to drop the slide both 'for-real' and during training with dummy rounds. Simple reason - do the same thing in training as I would like to do in a fight. Any additional wear that comes from this practice, I'm prepared to deal with.

As for reloading on a hot chamber - I have no illusions about my ability to count rounds in a gunfight.

- Chris

[Old Fuff]

Well the Old Fuff is going to roil the waters again. Those that have one of Mr. Browning’s Government Model pistols are invited to conduct a little experiment. First remove the magazine and make sure the chamber is clear.

Now, pull back the slide and lock it with the slidelock. Look through the ejection port and notice the distance between the back of the magazine well and the breechface. Next, pull the slide all of the way back and again note the distance between the magazine well and the breechface. If you don’t have a bunch of plastic do-dads on the recoil spring guide you’ll see there is a difference.

When you fire the piece the slide goes all the way back (or at least it should) and then “runs up” and boots the cartridge in the butt to drive it forward. When you drop the slide with the slidestop you eliminate some of this run-up and the cartridge is more “pushed” then “booted” – and this can slightly increase the chance of a failure-to-feed or stovepipe.

In Browning’s day the drill called for the slide to be locked back, a loaded magazine then inserted, and the slide pulled fully to the rear of it’s travel and let go. We call that “slingshoting.”

When practicing I make a point of reloading before the last round is fired. But if I goof (yup, it can happen) I tip the pistol to the left and pull back the slide with the left hand rather then drop it with the slidestop. Then as the slide goes forward I turn it back to vertical while regripping and pick up the sights. I like to think I don’t have to do this very often.

[9x19]

Browning's day called for the use of FMJ ammo too... :scrutiny: but most everything evolves... though perhaps old-hand 1911 tuners are exempt?

One must ponder the possibility...

:neener:

[Ryder]

I haven't had the 1911 all that long but loading and unloading as often as is required for dry fire practice and cleaning was showing me that 45acp was really susceptable to bullet setback within the case from hitting the feedramp.

Using either the slide release or the slingshot method didn't matter. It was bad (I've got a 23# spring in my little monster). I was getting obvious bulge rings on the case where the base of the bullet resides and it didn't take a micrometer to tell me they were becoming progressively shorter after each cycling into the chamber.

What I came up with to solve that problem was a modified slingshot method. I pull on the slide but don't release it to freely travel home. I hang onto the slide and follow it forward with the weight of my hand. Not exactly what I'd call slow motion chambering, but nowhere near the velocity of a freely released slide. Just buffering it a tad.

It took a bit of practice to make this work smoothly but I seat the cartridge into the chamber reliably now without bullet setback problems.

Of course I would not think this of any worth in a confrontation during tactical reloads, but it's a good deal for around the house or at the range.

[1911Tuner]

9x19..

Yes, things evolve, but sometimes not in the right direction.
Noted by all the reliability issues that come up on the 1911
pistol. If we keep in mind the engineering rule 1:

"Whenever something is changed, three other things must
be changed to compensate for it."

Not only bullet shape, but the time/pressure curve of the ammunition is figured in to the mix. Add to that the early
release magazine design that allows for hollowpoints and
semi-wadcutters can sometimes bring on other woes.
Magazine follower design also factors in...especially the
ones that don't have the dimple on the follower. 8-round
magazines are also out ot the loop.
The new-style magazines sometimes release the round too early and too abruptly...and the missing dimple can't control the
last round in the magazine adequately to prevent problems.

I can provide a more detailed description, but it will require
keeping an open mind and a logical approach in order to
understand. Just keep one thing in mind as you look at it...
Whenever something falls very far outside design parameters,
problems with functional reliability will evolve too. It's
inevitable.

So many people have been trying to outsmart JMB for so long,
they really believe that they have.

Regards...
Tuner

[9x19]

1911 Tuner,

'Whenever something is changed, three other things must
be changed to compensate for it.'

Nothing.... not one thing... has been changed regarding the slide stop/release's functionality since the days of my own 1914 Colt 1911, so that point is rather oblique in terms of your original premise.

I can provide a more detailed description, but it will require
keeping an open mind...

There's no need for you to try and open your mind just to explain it to me. :neener:

I already understand the beast quite well... I'm just less convinced than some that I am the only one that does. :scrutiny:

[1911Tuner]

9x19...I'm not trying to say that only I understand the beast,
but there are several that don't. I'm only trying to help.
While the slide stop has changed very little, other things around it have...and while nothing means everything...everything means
something. To address the question of change...please read on.

This evolution thing can probably be better understood by looking at the hot-rodding practices that many of us indulged in during our rite of manhood passage.

We got our first car, and wanted more. We wanted it to go faster...so we ran out and bought an intake manifold that would bolt-on in place of the wimpy 2-barrel design, and topped it off with a big Holley 4-barrel, all the while envisioning an instant transformation from grocery-getter to drag strip screamer. What we got was very little, if any increase in performance, and often we got less. Sometimes the dependability went away as well.

FIguring that the reason was that there was too much going into the engine, and not enough out...Headers! That must be it! 150 dollars and another Saturday shot yielded...not much.

Must be the camshaft! 250 dollars for a cam and lifter set and we had something that sounded like a race car, but fell flat on its face out of the gate, and this is assuming that we got lucky and didn't need to degree the cam.

Ignition system! Yes! Well, that helped a bit, but still no cigar. By now we had learned a little about advance curves, and we got a little return for our efforts....but as rpm's increased, we got valve float. Off to buy a valve spring set that was designed to go along with the camshaft. Now we're cookin!

Not quite...The power curve had shifted, and while the car pulled like a bandit at the right rpm level, it was slow outta the gate. Gears! Our local hot-rod barn gets another fistful of our money for a ring and pinion set, and it we had the expertise to actually install it correctly, we were in the game.

We had a high-revving, pavement melting Honest-to-God fast car! Trouble was that now we had to stay on top of it constantly to keep it sharp...and sometimes just to keep it running. Then one fine Saturday night, during an 8-grand blast, something turns loose...and the knock tells us that something is very wrong
in the bottom end of that engine. We didn't take into account the fact that the crankshaft, connecting rods, bearings, pistons and rings weren't designed to handle the load...and we were back to square one, wishing that we had left it alone. At least we didn't have to walk or bum rides from our pals while our screamer was dead in the water until we spent 15 hours fixing it.

Whenever a working design is altered...3 other things must be changed to compensate. No getting around it.

T

[9x19]

'tuner,

To address the question of change...please read on.


That's alright... I'm full-up on the philosophy of change lectures, and I think its unlikely to contain anthing remotely cogent to the discussion at hand.

Do cary on tho'... :rolleyes:

[BigG]

The car analogy is a good one. No such thing as a free lunch, magic bullet, etc. Of course, you did not mention the coolness factor! :D

[faustulus]

No offense 1911Turner, but I think you have over analyzed the mechanics. You pull your theory from angles, but other than 90 what other angle would reliably hold the slide back?

[1911Tuner]

No no! I wasn't suggesting that the angle was wrong...just that
it may be better to use a slingshot release except in a high-stress
situation to avoid undue wear...and that from looking at the
design, that the choice was there all along, and many didn't realize it, myself included.


As for "carrying on"....


I guess I need to apologize. I came here blind...didn't know many usernames. I've always held that an answer accompanied by an explanation is better recieved than simply a flat answer. Some folks want not only an answer, but they want to know why.

I was also operating under the assumption that the purpose of forums like this was for sharing and exchange of ideas, information, theories, new approaches, and helping some of those who don't understand something.,
but want to. While I never claimed to have all the answers, I've got more than a few, and sometimes a different approach can turn on a light for somebody else. How silly of me. Now I get it,
even though there are some few who actually appreciate the effort.

Regards all...
Tuner---------------->out!

[Handy]

Tuner,

I gave you a multiple of opportunities with a whole host of counterexamples, in essense, a ton of "different approaches" which you chose to not address. Instead, you ignored every example I offered and only sought to create "understanding" through your own examples and relating experiences that don't always apply.

Before you throw your arms up at the counter-intellectualism at THR, why don't you give people here credit for maybe having some insight and not talking down to them? I didn't debate you for two pages because I thought you were a fool, but that was how you wrote me off, both in that thread and in other, unrelated threads.

I suggest to you that it is possible that, despite whatever experience, sometimes an insight comes from forum members that is both counter to your experience, AND right. Reading and seriously considering what was said first may be of benefit to all.

[New_comer]

but other than 90 what other angle would reliably hold the slide back? Different gun...


The later HK USP models have the slide lock notches angled more (or is it less?) than 90 degs, which promotes a more positive engagement of the slide notch/slidestop to lock open. More like 75 degress 'hooking' on to the other at recoil spring force.


Needs quite a bit of downwards push at the 'very prominent' lever to release the mating parts. You could imagine that the slide has to move back a bit before it gets 'unhooked'...


That's the reason why I slingshot more often than I thumb it, to protect the parts from (imagined :D) wear...


In comparison, the standard 1911's slide stop is puny, so I think it doesnt lend itself to being used as a release lever in the first place.


Since we're trying to 'read' the fabled designer's mind when he designed the part, my 'read' is that it's a basic stop, nothing more. Evolved into the release lever later on... ;)

[1911Tuner]

Handy...I wasn't talking down. I was frustrated because I couldn't make you understand that the barrel and slide move together for a very short distance,
and then the barrel changes directions. The different axis is where the
problems start when the lower lug is wrong.

This wasn't theory. It was based on a bad experience when I first started building pistols. I overcut a lug radius...we didn't have the lug cutters in those days...and although I realized that the link position was out-of-spec, I thought that it would be okay. The pistol seemed to function fine, but the locking lugs were ruined quickly. A check revealed that the link position was 1.5 degrees overcentered. Not far out, but just enough.

I sought out an answer from somebody who knew...and that was the reason that I got. A second and third opinion netted the same answer. The barrel linkdown was delayed, and the slide crashed into the front of the locking lugs.

There. Now we can all be friends again...

[BigG]

Everybody who wants to be an expert should study the subject matter for themselves, formulate their own questions, and find their own answers. The questions/answers of one expert will not necessarily be the same as those of another expert on the same subject. We can all learn something new about any subject. :D

[New_comer]

I'm very poor with visualizations :eek:


To those like me, this might help:


http://www.m1911.org/locking.htm


NOW, let us form our own opinions! :D:D:D

[Old Fuff]

I rise to support "Tuner" again, with the observation that while the times and techniques have changed Browning's pistol hasn't - at least very much. This thread has revolved around certain mechanical considerations and how they may effect the function of the piece when things are done in a certain way. Everyone is free to do whatever they want, but the wise will consider the implications - good and bad. All the "old timers" have done is start the discussion, and experience over a long period of time is not necessarily obsolete.

[Dobe]

Speaking for myself,
I would like to see these discussions continue. If you disagree with someone on the post, there is no reason that you cannot restate your ideas for clarification. If your disagreement is not met with your satisfaction, then ask again.

But at some point, it becomes time to let the more knowledgeable explain. One of my mottos for self-improvement, is "If you don't understand, then do the research before you come back to the table (discussion)".

[9x19]

The dicussion? Yes.

The snide character assassination as in 'tuner's last post to Handy? Nope.

Handy and I have had disagreements, but he has shown himself to be a better man than 'tuner.

[1911Tuner]

aaaaaaaaaaa...Yer right 9by...It was inexcuseable. I don't
get my buttons pushed often...
I've edited the personal part of the post and left the facts....
with all due apologies.

Regards,
T

[Erik]

I used to only hit the slide stop. It was fast, worked, and that was all I knew.

These days I sling shot almost exclusively.

Though I still find myself using the slide stop from time to time when I perceive a pressing need for speed.

[Andrew Wyatt]

I'm reasonably certain this "undue wear" in regards to the slidestip being used as a release is nonsense, primarily because my dad's carry pistol has the slidestop used as a release 100% of the time, and shows no wear on the slide, excepting that the finish is rubbed off.


If my gun ever stops locking back because the notch is worn, i figure it'll be time to replace the slide due to other problems anyway.

[tech]

Color me crazy but Tuner's theory that using the slide release will wear the slide slide release and or notch in the slide more quickly than the slingshot method make's perfect sense to me. Can you, could you, should you = personal preference its your pistol. Either the slide or the slide stop is going to be softer, even with the same steel because of heat treatment and one or the other will eventually show the effects of wear. Thanks for a lively debate.

Mike

[gryphon]

I love my 1911 as much as the next 1911 nut, but did anyone ever think that maybe JMB, as smart as he was, could have just screwed up? Maybe everything that he has done, every little component may not be 100% perfection?

I'm sorry if I sound a little gruff, but a lot of these threads seem to be hinging on "mutual admiration society".

My 1911 is a tool that I use and trust because I shoot it well and it is reliable. To be totally honest I do not care about the science of barrel lockup and widget timing and whatnot. If we all cared about it as much as a gunsmith, then there would be no need for a smith as everyone could do all their work to their own firearms.

[Dobe]

Gryphon,
All due respect, I am very curious why you are monitoring this thread, if the gunsmithing and the "whys" is something in which you are not interested.

[DJL2]

Just as something to note quickly:

Using the Slide stop to realease the slide will ABSOLUTELY cause the part to wear more quickly.

It is a simple matter of the part being subject to wear in one condition and none in the other. The part is stressed when used a release, the part is not stressed when the slide is slingshotted.

The question is not whether the part will wear, or wear faster, but wether or not it is enough to make a difference. That's just simple mechanics.

Have to edit in a question:
Just out of curiousity would the lugs on, say a Glock or SIG, using a very different contour than those on the 1911 be less susceptable to damage if the barrel unlocks late? That seems as if it would be the case to me based on the geometry of the barrel.

[Delmar]

Other than those old thumbnail front sights, wonderful for young eyes, I can't see where JMB made a mistake on anything, at least for me. The pistol balances nicely in my hands, parts-when they do wear are easy to change, nothing particularly difficult to tear down-even the Series 80 with those few extra parts. True, there are some easier to tear down to the last bolt and spring and some are a nightmare, but it really comes down to your preference and how you plan to maintain it.

I still buy my vehicles from the standpoint of "can I work on this", and I buy my firearms the same way.

Some people do not want to get that far into their weapon and thats okay too-thats why gunsmiths exist.

I like the idea of being better able to understand the intricacies of this weapon and all weapons in a general sense.

My best friend loves his Beretta 84 and I understand the engineering in it, but it has more fragile parts and odd looking springs than a bordello mattress in a china shop, but when it is put together and lubed properly (read sparingly!), it shoots very well indeed. BUT-he better not ever bring another new toy to my house again in a shoebox after he attempted to tackle it himself!

[Handy]

I wish I could have seen the original, unedited post.

[Dorian]

It's called the "Slide Release Lever" on a USP!

If you're talking 1911 only, I don't own one, so I cant comment. I use the slide release on my USP religiously. Because thats what I learned on my M9 in MP school, and it's what I do with my USPs.

The only pistol I can't do it on is the glock. I have to slingshot that. But that's ok because I'm not a glock fan :)

[jungleman]

My Colt will chamber both ways.
My new Kahr PM9 with a FULL magazine will not chamber the first round by slingshot. It will chamber by slide release lever.
Other owners of the Kahr PM9 report the same.
I can see advantages of both ways. As often as I shoot my weapons I could do anything without damage. I guess a little common sense should prevail. If you use the weapon a lot you might be concerned about wear. My Colt .45 has only been shot around 300 times since 1979.

[Ky Larry]

I know there is a right way, a wrong way, and the Army way of doing things. What is the U.S. Army's position on slingshot vs slide release? They should have more experience with the 1911 than anyone else. What does the U.S.M.C say? Us Air Force types didn't fire the 1911.

[1911Tuner]

Insert magazine into in-battery empty pistol...rack slide
and release. Do not ride slide forward. Let it fly. Engage manual safety. Step up to the firing line. Disengage the manual safety. Shoot to slidelock, and insert fresh magazine. Thumb release down. Continue to fire to slidelock. Lay pistol down.
Don't shoot the Master Gunnery Sargeant. Don't shoot
yourself. Especially, don't shoot ME!

HOO-RAH!
T