CZ 75 Design Flaw?


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synapse
June 5, 2003, 11:21 AM
I may of discovered a design flaw in the CZ-75. After about 300 rounds of shooting, I have noticed that you have to take out the extractor and clean it thoroughly if it is not to stovepipe and/or fail to extract. NONE of my other pistols are so finicky.

I spoke to CZ-USA about this matter and they have indeed agreed that a thorough cleaning of the extractor is merited.

Yes, I know it is herasy to say anything negative about the CZ line, but I think I have a good point as none of my other pistols get so clogged up so fast.

Any thoughts?
Regards,
Synapse

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Handy
June 5, 2003, 11:31 AM
This has not been my experience with CZ clones, nor do many report stovepipes (and you can bet there are some dirty extractors out there).

Next time you have it apart, look for dirt trapping sharp edges and examine the way it holds the case when dirty, then clean. A minor flaw might be contributing to the problem.

CZ-75
June 5, 2003, 12:37 PM
Haven't I seen this before on TFL or the CZ forum?

IIRC, it generated more heat than light from the numerous CZ owners w/o this problem, who doubted there ever was a flaw.

I've never had it and would ask for a new extractor from CZ were I having a problem.

I would also polish and break any roughness that might be present on the hook where it contacts the rim. Dirt/residue won't stick as well to a smooth surface.

George Hill
June 5, 2003, 12:41 PM
So if the same thing is true of the AR-15 Bolt and bolt carrier assembly, can we then call it a Design Flaw as well?

:evil:

TreeSquid
June 5, 2003, 12:56 PM
Design flaw? Maybe you should use more than one CZ-75 before you declare something a design flaw :P My friend's 75BD had no extractor problems, and my PCR has none, either. I'm inclined to think you just got unlucky. Or are using filthy ammo in just that gun :D

Walt Sherrill
June 5, 2003, 01:20 PM
Design flaw? Probably not.

Assembly problem or part flaw, perhaps.

I'm on my fifth CZ, with 7+ K plus rounds through one of them, without the first extractor problem.

The extractor design does lend itself to dirt and grunge building up behind the extractor, so that it doesn't close as tightly as it should.

Preventive maintenance (ala cleaning with spray cleaner) will make it a non-issue.

MoNsTeR
June 5, 2003, 02:10 PM
I have a 75B and an 85 Combat, neither of them have this problem. I can shoot much more than 300 rounds without cleaning the extractor, with no failures.

PCRCCW
June 5, 2003, 02:24 PM
Funny a design flaw is usually merit for a recall or sending out new parts with a warning....I havent heard of this yet.....:evil:

And out of the 9 Cz's Ive had....all with extractors...I havent had to take one out for a thorough cleaning yet....One of my compacts did get finicky a while back but it wasnt an extractor problem.

I have EASILY over 20K rounds through these guns without removing an extractor nor had a FTE of any kind..................

I think some information may have not been conveyed correctly or the likes. We talk to Mike, Chris, CJ @ CZUSA etc on a weekly basis sometimes more. No problem of anykind on a consistant basis has EVER been brought up regarding the extractor...........................
CZ thus far has had:
A small run of slide stop problems...corrected.
Extractor/spring problems..again corrected.
The latest snaffoo is the plastic trigger on the SA.....
Just a piss poor trigger design by my favorite gun company.

And if somethings really wrong with the gun...its not herasy to bring it up. CZ's arent perfect by any means unless you ask me!

They have as many problems as HK's and Sigs do :rolleyes: :D
Although they do have more problems than typical movie gun...which has 500 rnd flush mounting mags and shoot without fail everytime :neener:

Shoot well

mainmech48
June 5, 2003, 02:49 PM
My EAA "Witness" CZ 75 clone has had over 7.5K rounds through it with no extraction failures. That includes one weekend DP class where over 900 rds went through it without cleaning at all.

My CZ 97B .45 is at 3K, and has been as reliable as gravity, with the notable exception of one lot of 230 gr. TC lead bulllet reloads that wanted to hang up on the feed ramp. Five minutes with a felt bob and jewelers rouge on the ramp fixed that.

If a good look with a 5-10X loupe doesn't show any obvious burrs or damage, I'd call Mike at CZ-USA. Their CS dept. is first-rate.

From my own experience, and what I've seen and read on the CZ Forum this is anything but common. Calling it a "design flaw" when it's most likely ammo-related is a bit of a stretch, IMO.

BevrFevr
June 5, 2003, 03:18 PM
I shoot the gun relatively dry for 500 or so rounds without cleaning the entire gun let alone the extractor. A tap and a rack and it's going again.

Mine will often only see a bore snake for many many rounds. It doesn't like after factory mags too much but they work.

-bevr

Jim Watson
June 5, 2003, 03:20 PM
I am with Synapse, although I think the fault was as much in execution as design.
My CZ75 "pre B" starting demanding frequent cleaning under the extractor to avoid malfs. Then it got to where it didn't matter whether it was clean or not. I replaced the extractor and spring and it now runs like a champ for many hundreds of rounds between cleanings under the extractor. It still needs to come out every once in a while, though. I suspect just a new stiff spring would have been enough but did not want to take a chance on a gun I shoot a good deal. Both were only $13. They might give you a set on guarantee, but at the time I did mine they had just had a rash of calls where everybody blamed everything on the extractor and wanted a new one for free.

Call CZ USA and talk to Mike.

Dirt under the extractor is a problem with any auto and I think the new generation of 1911 derivatives with pinned in external extractors will require extra attention to cleaning. And it takes tools to remove, with a teeny spring and pin to keep track of.

DougB
June 5, 2003, 04:13 PM
I've got two CZ75s (a full-sized and a PCR), and a good friend has a PCR. They've all been shot quite a lot over a period of years, mostly with inexpensive ammo. They are rarely cleaned. We haven't had any extractor (or other) problems. I don't doubt that individual guns may have specific problems, but I don't think this is a design flaw.

Doug

firestar
June 5, 2003, 04:17 PM
The MAJOR design flaw with the CZ-75 is that DA trigger. It is too far away for shooters with smaller hands to index properly. I would have a CZ-75 if it weren't for this problem. I had a CZ-40 that had the same problem. It works great for my friend who has longer fingers than me.

BevrFevr
June 5, 2003, 06:11 PM
actually if I pick something as a design flaw it would have to be the safety. It sits too far forward for my stubby little thumb. I deal with it of course but I think I would suffer in IDPA. I may see if they will put one of those other race gun safeties on for me.

The trigger is no 1911 or S&W 686 but it beats the hell out of many others. I think the real key to happiness with the trigger is using the right lubricants on the right surfaces.

-bevr

Walt Sherrill
June 5, 2003, 08:14 PM
actually if I pick something as a design flaw it would have to be the safety. It sits too far forward for my stubby little thumb. I deal with it of course but I think I would suffer in IDPA. I may see if they will put one of those other race gun safeties on for me.
Be wary: if you do get a race-gun safety installed, you'll have to compete in the Enhanced Service Pistol Division -- which is the toughest division. (See the rule book, page 11.)

MoNsTeR
June 5, 2003, 08:24 PM
If you're using the thumb safety at all, you're in ESP already. In SSP you have to start DA.

Walt Sherrill
June 5, 2003, 08:36 PM
Hah! Brain fart on my part.

(Unless you're shooting a Witness CZ-clone, which allows safety on with hammer down <grin>. Several guys on the CZ Forum, in the Clone area, claim that's the way they carry... That would still be SSP. <grin>)

The thing I'd like to have, and its absolutely not allowed, is an oversize, extended mag release...

Someone suggested that the long trigger reach was a design flaw. Nope. It is what it is.

If it doesn't fit your hand, you find one that does. Lots of folks don't shoot Berettas 'cause they're too big. But that doesn't make the "bigness" a design flaw.

But the fact that the CZ can be shot cocked and locked offsets the "flaw" a bit.

euclid
June 5, 2003, 09:06 PM
I don't know if this is an isolated case but my P01 will NOT extract the Win bulk pack 9mm ammo. Everything else seems to extract ok. I compared the extracted brass from the bulk pack ammo to other brands of brass (i.e. Speer, Rem, etc.) and I notice that the extraction groove on the WW bulk pack stuff is not as deep as the extraction grooves found on the other brands of brass I examined. My only conclusion is that the extractor on my P01 is not tuned well enough to handle the shallower extraction groove found on the WW bulk pack 9mm ammo. That's too bad because I bought the P01 to shoot cheap factory ammo and that WW stuff is about as cheap as it gets.

Run a search on CZforum.com and I think you'll find that I am not alone; the WW bulk pack 9mm ammo seems to give many CZ's fits.

poof...

Chris Rhines
June 5, 2003, 10:01 PM
Strange - I've run thousands of rounds of Winchester White Box 9mm through four different CZ-75s, and had not a single FTE.

- Chris

Shmackey
June 5, 2003, 11:18 PM
Your gun is flawed because you have to clean it?

Tom B
June 6, 2003, 06:31 AM
I have owned 3ea CZ75B Mil Turks, 1ea CZ85 Combat and 2ea CZ75B SA. Thousands of rounds and never removed the extractor for cleaning.

caz223
June 6, 2003, 07:20 AM
Maybe try different ammo?

PCRCCW
June 6, 2003, 08:31 AM
Mind you this isnt a design flaw either......:what: :fire:
Win white box doesnt agree with certain GUNS...the relief cut out for the extractor is a different shape than even other packages of the WWB. You may have gotten a run of rnds that just dont agree with your gun...maybe not. You have the same extractor I do on my PCR.....its done thousands of rnds of WWB in the 100 rnd boxes....
shoot well

HSMITH
June 6, 2003, 09:00 AM
My buddy has a 75B that is creeping up on 6K rounds without one single hiccup. Seriously, NOT ONE. It has never been taken down more than a field strip, and the ejector certainly has never been cleaned anymore than wiping from the outside.

New_comer
June 6, 2003, 09:44 AM
What ammo were you using? What sort of dirt were you getting?


Too much oil, perhaps? :confused:

JohnBT
June 6, 2003, 09:59 AM
I've had a Military model for 3 years. Maybe I should learn how to take the extractor out? Nah, if it ain't broke... ;)

John

Pilot
June 6, 2003, 10:04 AM
No gun is perfect, but my Three CZ's have been. I've owned a CZ-75B since 1996 and have added a PCR, Kadet Kit and 97B over the past few years. I go through several range sessions and hundreds of rounds before I even think of cleaning them and no problems here.

Caseless
June 6, 2003, 05:15 PM
I agree with the original poster that my CZ 75B has a big flaw. Not the extractor though. The flaw is that this gun is burning a hole in my pocket book. I need to stop myself from bringing a whole case of Winchester white box each time I go to the range with the 75 and Kadet combo.;)

synapse
June 7, 2003, 07:49 AM
I did some research on the czforum.com last night. It appears as though extractor woes are not unheard of on the cz75. In fact, many have claimed a dirty extractor has been the culprit in numerous failures to extract.

It just seems to me that a design that lends itself to this would be a flaw. Perhaps not a flaw of 'recall' proportions as it can be remedied by a good cleansing, but nonetheless, a flaw that should be noted.

Regards,
synapse

Walt Sherrill
June 7, 2003, 08:05 AM
Not unheard of. Agreed.

Design flaw? Who knows? For as I said above, I've put thousands and thousands of rounds through my CZs without the first extraction problem.

Should the design be such that cleaning shouldn't be required?

I put 2,000 rounds through my CZ-85 Combat once, just for the hell of it, without cleaning. No extraction problems.

I suspect there may be problems with specific extractors, maybe made NOT exactly to spec.

Is that a design flaw? Probably not. Is that a quality control problem? Perhaps. But its not a problem that is unknown to other guns, etc.

If it'll make you feel better, call it a "design flaw."

But I think if it were a design flaw it would be far more common.

I'm one of the moderators on the CZ Forum. We have several thousand registered users, and many, many more participants.

The extraction issue has come up a number of times (TENS, not HUNDREDS, of inquiries), as have problems with premature lockback (again, TENS, not HUNDREDS of times).

The guns have remarkably few problems, otherwise. This is especially amazing since many of the shooters on the CZ Forum are relatively new to semi-auto pistols, which generates a lot of VERY BASIC questions and problems.

I've had SIGs, Glocks, Berettas, S&Ws, etc., I prefer my CZs. They just fit me better. I can understand why others might feel differently.

Stealthfixr
June 7, 2003, 10:35 AM
And, I've shot over 2000 rounds with the CZ-75BD that I bought last December. I love the gun--it shoots until I quit, accurate, never a malfunction.

ojibweindian
June 7, 2003, 07:06 PM
I have about 1K rounds through my CZ75 without any extraction problems. I haven't had any problems, for that matter, other than running out of ammo at the range!

7677
June 8, 2003, 10:23 PM
I've had two problems with my CZ 85 since I bought it in 1990. The first problem I had was with some Commie steel cased ammo that I was shooting broke the extractor just after I bought it. Ten years later and just over 20,000 rounds the extractor broke again. The new extractor does not like CCI blazer for some reason. Other then those two problems my Cz85 has given me 13 years of reliabilty. It seems like extractors tend to break in most types of pistols as I've replaced broken extractor's in Glocks and SIGs also.

drannor
June 9, 2003, 06:33 PM
I read this thread on Saturday and mostly agreed with the folks who expressed doubt about the possibility of any design flaw in the CZ. My CZ75BD has been almost flawless in operation. Yesterday I went to the range and ran 200 rounds of Winchester White Box through it.

3 stove pipes.

I was unpleasently surprised. I probably have around 2500 rounds fired with this pistol. Never experienced this kind of problem. Taking the cleaning comments about the extractor to heart I went at it with my spray can of CLP. I cleared out some noticable gunk (bad on my part I know) but am not satisfied.

Does anyone have instructions for removing the extractor? Is this difficult? Advised? I'd like to make sure I really give a good cleaning. Help!

I love this pistol, easily the best value of any of the firearms I've purchased. I highly recommend the CZ75 to newbies (with the Kadet conversion) looking for a great multipurpose piece. In fact I've been jonesing for one of the nice Champion or SA type CZ's for a while now.

CZ-75
June 9, 2003, 06:40 PM
Does anyone have instructions for removing the extractor? Is this difficult?

No. Drive pin out from the top, just until the spring pushes extractor loose (use a punch with a long shaft to avoid potential marring). Remove and clean. Seat spring place extractor in place, using another punch or pin to hold in place while driving the original pin back in place from the bottom, using a much larger diameter punch than it took to remove it, until flush. Use original punch to make adjustments in pin depth/position.

drannor
June 9, 2003, 06:45 PM
Gracias. I'll work on it tonight and report if I see undue gunkage or less likely a warped or obviously defective part. Figuring it's the former right now.

CZ-75
June 10, 2003, 01:44 AM
Polish it up with a dremel, felt tip and jeweler's rouge (this removes bluing, so just do the back side of the hook), or 1000 grit sandpaper and elbow grease.

BTW, you'll need three hands to put the extractor back, or a vice with thick leather pads to secure the slide.

rhoggman
July 7, 2009, 07:56 AM
I have a CZ75 BD Police with FTE problems right not. I was told the pistol only had 200 rounds through it at the time I purchased it. Pistol looks brand new.

I got my first FTE after about 15 rounds of WWB. The case being extracted actually seperates from the extractor before it touches the ejector.

I did find out that the original owner decided to put an 18lb recoil spring to replace the 14lb factory spring, but this does not explain the problem I have.

It almost looks as thought the round at the top of the mag causes the case being extracted to cant upwards slightly, which in turn causes the case to become detached from the extractor and whala... I have a an unreliable hunk of metal.

I have ordered a new extractor spring, and factory strength recoil spring from Wolff.

And don't start hating on me because I traded a fairly new XDM 9mm for this CZ 75 BD Police w/ night sites.... I'm already regretting it.

Pilot
July 7, 2009, 07:59 AM
Own three CZ-75 variants with thousands of rounds through them. Never had to take apart the extractor for cleaning. :confused:

Ash
July 7, 2009, 08:06 AM
It's mechanical, so it can happen. My guess is the extractor is out of spec in some way. I have shot CZ's for 13 years now and have not had the problem myself. And, given the lack of similar experiences, one can assume it isn't a design flaw but rather an aberration. Cleaning it then polishing it sounds like the best advice.

Ash

Norinco982lover
July 7, 2009, 10:52 AM
I never had any problems...

Matrix187
July 7, 2009, 12:36 PM
HOw much different is the P-01's extractor compared to the CZ 75 (non p-01)series?

easyg
July 7, 2009, 12:58 PM
I used to own a CZ75B SA .40 and it would frequently fail to extract the spent brass, even when it was clean.
I had two different gunsmiths attempt to fix the problem, but they could not.

I eventually traded to a guy who thought that he could solve the problem.
The last time I talked to him he had decided to send it back to CZ.
CZ makes good products, but every company has at least one bad one slip through the QC process.

Handyguy
July 7, 2009, 01:04 PM
Good luck with resolution of your problem Synapse.

Trebor
July 7, 2009, 02:06 PM
Good luck with resolution of your problem Synapse.

Well, I bet in the six years since he started this thread, he's managed to either resolve the problem by now or at least learned to ignore it.

BlindJustice
July 7, 2009, 02:28 PM
I've got 1700 or more through my CZ 75B in 9mm Luger
it's never had a FTE - extractor has never been removed.
mine left the factory Jan '08.

My shooting buddy had an FTE with his
Glock 19 the other day, he blamed it on his
handloads.

Poster never said what ammo he was using

Shrug

Randall

CZF
July 7, 2009, 03:49 PM
Back from the dead thread. There have been a few here that are seeing new CZ owners with the problematic extractor springs that show up every once in a while.

NO gun or product is perfect. Yes, even a Glock can have problems.

With most CZs, it involves Winchester white Box or in my case..
Blazer ammo.

tipoc
July 7, 2009, 06:29 PM
Not trying to be a smart ass but wouldn't it be better to start a new thread than to resurrect a 6 year old thread?

tipoc

rhoggman
July 7, 2009, 09:09 PM
It was relevant.... still is. You would think that all of the people who complain about not searching for old information before starting a new thread would be on here praising me. Instead, someone complains about not starting a new thread. I guess there will always be someone discontented with something.

BigJakeJ1s
July 7, 2009, 10:07 PM
300 rounds through one pistol, and suddenly all CZ-75's have a "design flaw"...?

Several thousand rounds through mine with nothing more than routine cleaning (not paying any particular attention to the extractor), and mine is fine.

Andy

wilkersk
July 8, 2009, 04:50 AM
I've said this on another thread. But, My CZ 75B was very finicky for about the first 1,000 rounds. It wouldn't feed Speer Gold Dot at all. I had occasional FTEs of various other factory loads.

But, I have not had ANY malfunctions in a while now. I use this pistol for IPSC Production Division competition. Its dusty, sandy, or muddy, sometimes in the same match. My CZ is a tack driver. It beats the pants off my XDM 9, much to my dissapointment!

A few people I've talked to recently swear by putting "grease on the slide rails. This seems to me one possible way of getting excess grease to gunk up the extractor. I've never put grease on the rails of an auto pistol.

I've always just rubbed a light coat of machine oil on the mating surfaces and a drop or 2 in the usual spots for springs, then wipe everything down with a well seasoned gun cloth.

I've got a '64 Army National Match 1911 thats been cared for this way for 45 years now. Its still a very tight little pistol.

chriske
July 8, 2009, 09:38 AM
I never encountered that problem with my CZ mod 75-B. Admittedly, I seldom shoot more than 200 rounds per one range session, let alone 300.

tipoc
July 8, 2009, 12:40 PM
rhoggman,

I wasn't criticizing you for resurrecting an old thread per se, just this old thread. See you've come with a particular problem with your gun. That problem is an interesting one and deserves attention on it's own. But you placed it at the end of a thread which was about whether there is a design flaw in the extractor of the CZ75. So folks will read over a couple of pages about that, and maybe comment on that based on the title of the thread and it's major content, and your particular question may be overlooked. So I was suggesting that because your problem is interesting that it deserved a separate thread rather than be tacked on the end of an old thread on another subject. That's all.

The 50 round boxes of WWB is pretty good stuff. The bulk ammo packs are sometime questionable.

A stronger recoil spring is useful when a fellas firing +P or +P+ ammo but a stronger spring can cause problems in some guns when shooting standard velocity ammo. This could be part of the problem. It could also be the extractor. Could be a mag problem.

So ammo, spring, extractor and last the mag. Isolate the problem.

You can also call CZ their service dept is quite helpful.

tipoc

gopguy
July 10, 2009, 12:10 PM
Hardly a flawed gun the CZ-75 has an excellent track record world wide. THR's own Stephen Camp has written a wonderful piece on this classic pistol.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/CZ75.htm

Keep her clean, if it continues to have problems send her back to the good folks at CZ USA for a look. Occasionally a imperfect gun gets through. I have a CZ75B that had problems with the magazine catch and they fixed it to my satisfaction. 1000 rounds later no problems.

V45C
July 10, 2009, 12:28 PM
this is more than a 'minor' problem , in fact , its becoming very common ...
my new 75B 40 did this from the first box of ammo thru it and was immediatly disposed of...
had i done a search on the CZ board i would never have bought it...
13 flawless cz's , then i got that pos, never again...

tipoc
July 10, 2009, 06:13 PM
this is more than a 'minor' problem , in fact , its becoming very common ...
my new 75B 40 did this from the first box of ammo thru it and was immediatly disposed of...
had i done a search on the CZ board i would never have bought it...
13 flawless cz's , then i got that pos, never again...

Hmm. This deserves close reading and some thought.

A shooter owns or has owned 13 CZs over a span of time and all ran flawlessly. A record any manufacturer would be proud of. Then the shooter buys his 14th one and that hiccups some. Now rather than find the problem and repair it, or return it to CZ for repair, he disposes of the gun (passing the problem on to another shooter maybe). He then swears off all future CZs.

Worth some thought.

tipoc

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