[Baba Louie]

Heard on NPR, that today, June 5, our Attorney General is "testifying" before Congress in order to expand the Patriot Act. It has a 2 year expiration limit and I gather he wants it lengthened in order to effectively fight terrorism.

Your thoughts? Pro and Con.

Anyone?

Adios

[cordex]

No thank you, Mr. Ashcroft.

[Chris Rhines]

Hey, this can't be right? I thought that Ashcroft was our best buddy because he's a Republican!

- Chris

[Marko Kloos]

There's a "pro" to the Patriot Act?

I think the administration is slapping their knees about 9/11. Just when the War On Drugs was losing steam, they got another bogeyman delivered to their doorsteps. War is the health of the State, and they wasted no time declaring war against yet another noun, a war that by any rational definition can never be declared "won".

You know how you fight terrorists? Dissolve the Department of Homeland Security. Ablish the Patriot Act. Restore civil liberties as recognized in the Bill of Rights. A nation cannot be free and totally safe at the same time. Take the money you've just saved by dismantling that huge bureaucracy, and split it evenly among all Americans. Let every law-abiding person in this country buy, own, and carry any sort of weapon they want. There's no defensive organization in the world like a bunch of pissed-off citizens defending their families and their bank accounts.

[TarpleyG]

There's no defensive organization in the world like a bunch of pissed-off citizens defending their families and their bank accounts.
You have a point there.

GT

[longeyes]

You're right on, Lendringser. Whatever happened to the "million points of light" concept anyway? Or GWB's great faith in volunteerism? Somehow this fades to black when national security and the 2A are concerned.

We on the Web understand the concept of distributed processing and many nodes, but the guys in D.C. want it all top-down. They will never give up Control--and that's both parties. We find ourselves with trickle-down freedom. They don't trust us, that's the bottom-line, and given who they are, they shouldn't.

[Leatherneck]

Ashcroft asking to expand Patriot Act
nonono nonono NO!

That damnable legislation needs to sunset along with the AWB. Talk about trading liberty for "security"--or the false sense thereof. Get rid of it!
:fire:

TC
TFL Survivor

[CMichael]

I'm glad for the Patriot Act and that President Bush is in charge.

The Justice Dept. has the responsibility of dealing with the reality of terrorism.

The measures are common sense and help close up holes that terrorists could use to attack the public.

What kind of liberty would people enjoy if the terrorists execute multiple terrorist attacks within the US and they are afraid to go outside?

[Ian]

Lol! Common-sense solutions to dangerous loopholes? You DO realize who you sound like, right? :scrutiny:

Seriously, what is liberty? Is a free person one who can do what they like or one who feels safe?

[CMichael]

Well Ian what is it that you want to do that is now constrained because of the Patriot Act?

[longeyes]

The core problem with the Homeland Security thrust is that it does not empower the American citizen. It is all about consolidated power, the "authorities," and the "experts." A centralized command is never going to be effective against infiltration of this kind. For that you need to develop "antibodies" in the millions and there are plenty of us who are ready, willing, and able to help with civil defense on all levels. Face it, we have a government that doesn't trust us and doesn't want us exerting meaningful power.

[CMichael]

Eyes individuals really can't stop terrorism.

How is someone with a CCW going to stop a truck full of explosives from blowing up a bridge.

The only way to stop terrorism is to get to the terrorists before they execute the acts. That can only be done via law enforcement.

[Leatherneck]

I'm not Ian, and I don't want to step on longeyes' good observation, but:Well Ian what is it that you want to do that is now constrained because of the Patriot Act?
All I want to do is send some milsurp ammo to a couple of friends, and it's turning into a nightmare of .gov forms, typewritten, in triplicate, sendable only from a few designated spots, etc. etc. All on account of "regulations since 9/11" according to UPS and Fed Ex. Not to mention the excessive burdens of faux security measures when travelling by air. And I don't particularly enjoy going about my business with the knowledge that the man-with-a-gun over there now has far fewer constraints on what he can legally do to me (or you) than pre-patriot.:fire:

TC
TFL Survivor

[Waitone]

The core problem with the Homeland Security thrust is that it does not empower the American citizen. It is all about consolidated power, the "authorities," and the "experts." And that is precisely my beef with the war on terror. It is a war fought by "experts." It is presumed your average Joe and Martha Sixpack have nothing to contribute. The only, I repeat, only way for Joe and Martha to contribute is to keep payin' them taxes. Insulting, arrogant, presumptious, disgusting.

Having said that, am I to conclude from the comments on this thread that there is NOTHING of value in the Patriot's Act?

[buzz_knox]

Extending the Patriot Act is just as wrong and short sighted as saying that the feds are jumping for joy (i.e. slapping their knees) about 9/11.

[Marko Kloos]

buzz,

I don't believe that anyone in the administration is literally joyful about 9/11, but I do believe that the President is glad that his administration was suddenly presented with a goal and a mission. Judging by the speed with which they immediately tackled civil liberties and created a gigantic new federal department in order to fight the new enemy, they wasted no time expanding federal power that they would never have gotten if it hadn't been for OBL.

[CMichael]

Leather that isn't the Patriot Act.

[buzz_knox]

I think that can be more easily interpreted as being a rather natural response to having 3000 citizens murdered, don't you? It's not about being presented with a mission; it's about being presented with an actualized threat and a legitimate expectation of more to come.

[Med 10]

Hey CMichael why doesnt the justice dept close the biggest hole in the security of this country right now!. I'm talking about the HUGE hole that an estimated 18,000 unaccounted illegal persons a month come through. You know, that HUGE hole in our national "security" called the Rio Grande.


What a bunch of hippocrites! They preach to the subjects about how we should give up certain liberties to ensure our safety in the interest of "national security" And then they are too cowardly to shut out the thousands of mexicans coming into this country that we have absolutely NO idea where they are located, HELL if I was a terrorist I would come across the border down south by the the hundreds then set up shop and at a predetermined time and date let em have it!

I just cant believe what a hippocrite the politicians are! Strip the subjects of their freedoms but OH NO! we cant appeat to be hatefull or "unwelcome" to the immigrants, afterall, their just looking for a better life! OH COMEON! I think I'm gonna puke!


Maybe the republicans are just courting the Hispanic vote. The Blacks are already in the pockets of the Dems, So the Repubs are just looking for their own token minority group for the votes!


I shall now go vomit.

[Chris Rhines]

Lendringser is being a bit too nice. Perhaps my current proximity to the District of Criminals is making me cynical, but I think that no small number of gov't managers and assorted media moviemakers really were jumping for joy in the days following 9/11. After the inital shock and horror wears off, I can very easily see John Ashcroft, or Robert Mueller, or any one of a number of SIS 'crats thinking, "Man, this one event has guarenteed my budget for the next twenty years!"

What, you think that the guv'mint really cares about us little people? Heh. Not as long as the tax checks keep coming in...

- Chris

[buzz_knox]

Being one of those evil federal employees, I'd initially responded. But now, I realize it's not worth it. I've got no interest in dealing with this crap.

[Chris Rhines]

I've rarely claimed to care about anyone other than myself, my family, and my friends, Buzz. That's no vice. But I don't dance in the blood of strangers, either. And that is exactly what the government did after 9/11, when it used the terrorist attacks to justify a whole new set of infringements on my rights. Perhaps some of the policymakers responsible for said infringements really had their hearts in the right place (you claim that you do, and I believe you), but I don't buy that the USA Patriot Act was the product of a benevolent mind.

Not that it makes much difference one way or the other.

- Chris

[CMichael]

I don't believe that anyone in the administration is literally joyful about 9/11, but I do believe that the President is glad that his administration was suddenly presented with a goal and a mission. Judging by the speed with which they immediately tackled civil liberties and created a gigantic new federal department in order to fight the new enemy, they wasted no time expanding federal power that they would never have gotten if it hadn't been for OBL.

Do you think that the US was caught with the biggest and the most devastating attack the US has ever suffered and trying to prevent more attacks, which the US didn't know were imminent or not?

Med I agree with you as far as illegal immigration from Mexico.

Once gain, no one here lost any liberty.

I think many should compare what the Patriot Act actually does and says instead of the compltely overblown hysteria pepetuated by some.

[Waitone]

Is it possible that on 912 we as a country faced a problem of incredible danger, one which was not going to be combated by individual efforts?

Is it possible, just possible over the years we as a country had slowly blinded ourselves to the point we could not see the danger much less combat it?

I prefer to think the US was truly fat, dumb, and happy after the fall of the Soviets and the coronation of Clinton. During that time some truly stupid provisions made it into our laws that prohibited us from combatting our new threat.

Like all human endeavors our reaction was good and bad. No doubt stupidity was put into the Patriot's Act. No doubt also PA did away with self-forged manacles (the wall between foreign and domestic intelligence comes to mind).

The good news is congress wised up and sunsetted the PA. . . .as all legislation should be treated.

Dogs bark, cats meow, snakes wiggle, government wants to get more powerful. . . . . what is so surprising?

[Baba Louie]

http://www.bridgertracker.com/default.htm

lendringser,

Of course there's a Pro side (tongue in cheek), every coin has two sides.

Someone IS making money off of the Patriot Act in a good old fashioned American Capitalist manner

I have found several manufacturers of software for tracking fellow human beings various computer related activities such as web site visits, banking, link to law enforcement systems, etc. Lots of money to be made, neh?

Makes ya feel safer, don't it? Abdullah and Ahab don't stand a chance, nor does Tom, Dick and Harry.

Kinda reminds me of the Police song that everyone seemed to want played at their weddings a while back (dolts liked the tune and thought it was sweet, when in reality it was about) "Every Move you make, I'll be watching you".

A Pink Floyd favorite, "Welcome my son, welcome, to the machine"

Adios

[owen]

Cmichael, what does the Patriot act actually do that is helpful to the fight against terrorism.

"They hate us because of our freedoms!" So lets give up our freedoms (AKA rights) to fight them? Good idea!

[Baba Louie]

So would you say that the Islamic Jihad has won a victory and forever changed America for the worse due to the restrictions now and to be imposed or is this just another little act in the history of the republic?
Looking back at the 20th century, each decade had some little (or not so) legislation which just "added to our greatness", didn't it? From "T. Rooseveldt/Meet me in St. Louis, Louis", WWI/Income Tax, Prohibition, Stock Market/Depression/Banking, FDR and all that, WWII/Atomic/Jet age, Cold War/Israel/Palestine, Vietnam/Peace Protest/Civil Rights/Welfare, Watergate/Carter, Reagan/Berlin Wall/Communism/Peace Dividend, Clinton/Peacekeeping... and now, brought to us by those we love to elect and a little old Arab in Afghanistan and our present administration (which we all helped elect... well most of us, maybe not Malone :D ) and our Patriot Act.

I guess thats progress.

Where are all of the Rand/Heinlein thinkers? Why aren't they coming to the forefront?

Adios

[rock jock]

they got another bogeyman delivered to their doorsteps
Bogeyman??!! Oh, that's rich. 3,000 people were incinerated in he WTC and the bogeyman is to blame. How much sand do you have to bury your head in to believe that?

[Delmar]

This patriot act is to me nothing more than a hyped up gun control law. Tell me when the last time was that an airport was hijacked?
The government is now aware we have enemies after the cold war, and are taking steps to take care of them, just like after Pearl Harbor.

I stay armed wherever I can and whenever I must.

Most of my gun collection is from individuals, so I don't have to put up with that nonsense.

The southern border is getting to look like a police state, and I write to those in power regularly to tell them I think they have their head inserted into their fourth point of contact.

I know my pistol may not stop a runaway truck full of explosives, but if I see something obviously illegal, I call the law. My cell phone can be a weapon too.

If we are to give up our personal rights as Americans, have the terrorists already won?

Why is Dubya enlarging a government which is already way too big? If he does not have the pants in the government family to tell these agencies to start cooperating or I will accept your resignation, I will look elsewhere in the next election.

[Giant]

The Constitution and the BOR are all the anti-terrorism law we need, in my humble opinion.

I have a copy of The Constitution and I have downloaded a copy of the patriot act. (lower case on purpose)

I have read the Constitution and BOR, and I have read the abomination called the patriot act - it allows Govt. agents to tap phones, look at computer records, break into homes, pick up citizens and hold them in jail without charges. All in secret, without the consent of a judge -- No warrent, nothing! They can pretty much do what they want, seize property, strip citizens of their citizenship, deport citizens, execute citizens. All without civil trial and in secret! Citizens deported, or held without charges! Not residents, but citizens, people born in the United States of America! Citizens innocent of commiting any crime!

Can anyone here who has in fact read The Constitution, The BOR, and the patriot act please tell all of America what is good about the patriot act? And! if you think the patriot act is good news for America, what is your agenda? Communist rule for America? Fascist rule for America? Perhaps a little of both and an American Government controlled by the United Nations and or The European Union? Perhaps the agenda is of no particular form, but simply raw power and greed, the unrestricted power of a dictator!

Giant

[Ian]

Well Ian what is it that you want to do that is now constrained because of the Patriot Act?
I don't want to be in danger of secret arrest. I don't want the government to be able to hold me without trial. I don't want the FBI to be able to look at my library records. I don't want to be defined as a terrorist for violating a gun registration law down the road. I don't want the government to steal yet more of my money to pay for all these things to be done to people either. Ask Mike Hawash if the Patriot Act is merely a paper tiger.

The only way to stop terrorism is to get to the terrorists before they execute the acts.
Think broader. The only sure way to prevent terrorism is to not give potential terrorists a motive in the first place. In other words, leave other countries alone! The Feds got us into the middle-eastern mess, and I have absolutely zero tolerance for them trying to fix it by taking more of MY rights away.

[jimpeel]

Mr. Ashcroft is, by a wide margin, the most dangerous man in America today; with the possible exception of those who would accede to his wishes.

[Zander]

I do believe that the President is glad that his administration was suddenly presented with a goal and a mission. --lendringser [moderator]Why?

Seems to me that the goal and mission were present before his inauguration...just ignored as inconsequential because the previous resident of the White House had other more pressing matters.

Spin all you wish, but the overwhelming majority of United States citizens are thankful that a real adult is in charge...

[Baba Louie]

Spin all you wish, but the overwhelming majority of United States citizens are thankful that a real adult is in charge...

for now.

Tomorrow?

ADios

[SteelyDan]

The Patriot Act goes against many of the beliefs I hold most dearly, since it expands the rights of the government at the expense of the individual. But at the same time, I have to wonder what I would do, or any of us would do, if we were the president after 9-11. Your single most important obligation is to protect the American people, yet you're suddenly faced with the realization that we have enemies who can kill us by the thousands and who want to kill us by the millions. I don't pretend to know the answer, but I'm pretty sure I'd feel compelled to do something in that situation, and that something would probably contain some elements of the Patriot Act.

Maybe I'm paranoid, but I believe there is a probability of a chem, bio, or nuke terrorist attack on the US mainland in the next 10 years, with the casualties running into the hundreds of thousands or even millions, along with almost unimaginable economic consequences. You can disagree with my assessment, but you better darn well not ignore the possibility. So, while my knee-jerk reaction is strongly anti-Patriot Act, I have to ask if those who deride the Act can suggest some realistic alternatives that will protect us against this new threat, without trampling on our rights? And by "realistic," I mean realistic; there's really no point in wasting bandswidth with "solutions" that, at least for now (e.g., until the smallpox epidemic starts...), are impossible for social, political, economic, or other reasons.

[CMichael]

Owen Cmichael, what does the Patriot act actually do that is helpful to the fight against terrorism.

It makes it easier to get warrants to do surveillance on suspected terrorists.

Dellmar I know my pistol may not stop a runaway truck full of explosives, but if I see something obviously illegal, I call the law. My cell phone can be a weapon too.

To my knowledge Dellmar the Patriot Act doesn't cover gun ownership rights. It's good you have that cell phone. Then you can alert the police after the explosion(s)

Giant I have read the Constitution and BOR, and I have read the abomination called the patriot act - it allows Govt. agents to tap phones, look at computer records, break into homes, pick up citizens and hold them in jail without charges. All in secret, without the consent of a judge -- No warrent, nothing! They can pretty much do what they want, seize property, strip citizens of their citizenship, deport citizens, execute citizens. All without civil trial and in secret! Citizens deported, or held without charges! Not residents, but citizens, people born in the United States of America! Citizens innocent of commiting any crime!

Giant i am afraid you should read it again because that is not what it says. It is a court that issues the warrants. It makes it easier to obtain them.

Ian I don't want to be in danger of secret arrest. I don't want the government to be able to hold me without trial. I don't want the FBI to be able to look at my library records. I don't want to be defined as a terrorist for violating a gun registration law down the road. I don't want the government to steal yet more of my money to pay for all these things to be done to people either. Ask Mike Hawash if the Patriot Act is merely a paper tiger.

Then I suggest don't fight with Al Qaida in planning terrorist acts against the US.

Perhaps you can cite examples of American citizens who have been held unjustly (in other words were accused wrongly)?

Think broader. The only sure way to prevent terrorism is to not give potential terrorists a motive in the first place. In other words, leave other countries alone! The Feds got us into the middle-eastern mess, and I have absolutely zero tolerance for them trying to fix it by taking more of MY rights away.

UBL and his ilk would like to the whole world to be ruled by a caliph. I don't believe in giving in to terrorist demands as it just encourages more terrorism. Also, I don't think I would be exactly comfortable being responsible to a caliph.

[Justin]

CMichael-
I've downloaded and read the PATRIOT Act. I seriously doubt that you, or I, or anyone else who's read it has an idea of what even 1/3 of it says. There's no way to make heads or tails of it unless you're willing to sit down and do a comparison between the PATRIOT Act and all of the laws that it modifies. So unless you sat there with a copy of US Code and did a compare and contrast, there's no way to tell what a lot of the PATRIOT Act says and does.

However, from my reading I can tell you two things:
The PATRIOT Act allows a person to be held by the government indefinately without being charged with a crime.
And
It redefines what the US gov't considers to be a terrorist. Hint: according to the PATRIOT Act a terrorist is pretty much anyone who holds views contrary to those of the feds. So, for instance, if a future Administration decides to repudiate Ashcroft's policy of the 2AM being an individual right, you now hold a belief contrary to the feds. Go to a pro-gun protest rally? That could easily land you on a 'suspected terrorist' watch list.

And that's just the parts I could understand. For any other insight, I readily admit to researching the matter through the filter of various legal experts (commonly known as 'lawyers') Guess what? They know how to read legalese, and they seem to be mighty troubled by the whole thing, and able to cite chapter and verse as to why.

[Justin]

UBL and his ilk would like to the whole world to be ruled by a caliph. I don't believe in giving in to terrorist demands as it just encourages more terrorism. Also, I don't think I would be exactly comfortable being responsible to a caliph.
Q) What's the difference between a caliph and your general, run of the mill totalitarian?

A) There isn't one.

I fail to see how giving up my individual human civil rights to the federal gov't is any different than giving up my individual human civil rights to some half-witted 3rd world theocrat, and you have yet to illustrate how this is better.

But the worst transgression of all is your continual assertion that the PATRIOT Act and other such laws have kept us safe. I'm sorry, but your reasoning is purely specious (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=specious) and devoid of factual supporting evidence.

[spartacus2002]

For those who point to the 3200 dead in NYC and the Pentagon from 9/11, I have this to say: Go back and relearn the principle of Cause And Effect.

Why did 9/11 happen?

Maybe because of our constant meddling in Middle Eastern politics? No, that can't be it.

Maybe because we have placed soldiers on land sacred to Muslims, who tend not to like infidels there? No, that can't be it.

Maybe because we support a small country who bulldozes Palestinian homes and shoots Palestinian civilians? No, that can't be it.

Maybe because we support despotic rulers in several countries over there that still laugh at the words "Human Rights"? No that can't be it.

Gee, I don't know, can somebody explain it to me?

[Thumper]

So what happens when Hillary the keys and gets to take the patriot act for a test drive?

[yucapote]

The now more powerful Big Brother is watching this forum. If you don't support the patriot act you could be marked as a terrorist.

:uhoh:OMG:uhoh: I replied to this thread, noooooooo..... did I just said BIG BROTHER :uhoh:

[rock jock]

Maybe because of our constant meddling in Middle Eastern politics?
Oh, the old "blame the victim" treatment, huh? Let me remind you of a few facts:

Our "meddling" has been a stabilizing precense in the ME and has almost certainly averted a major regional war between Israel and the surrounding Arabic countries that would have had a catastrophic and long-lasting impact on the world.

Our "meddling" prevented Saddam from controlling 40% of the world's oil reserves and from completing his WMD project well underway before Gulf War I.

Our "meddling" in Bosnia kept tens, or possibly hundreds of thousands of Muslims from being ethnically cleansed and from being completely pushed out of their homeland.

Our "meddling" in Somalia allowed thousands of Muslims to eat, at least until a few thugs decided our "meddling" was only helping the starving masses and doing nothing for their own power base.

Our "meddling" has led to diplomatic ties between Egypt and Israel, something most people assumed was impossible.

And finally, if a Palestinian state ever comes to pass, i.e., if Hamas and other terror groups do not derail the process for their own personal gain, it will only be because our "meddling" has facilitated the process.


You sir, have a very naive and simplistic view of the world which has led you to adopt a very twisted and pathetic form of Stolckholm syndrom.

[Giant]

CMichael

"Giant i am afraid you should read it again because that is not what it says. It is a court that issues the warrants. It makes it easier to obtain them."

Duh! Dear friend, I don't have to read the document more than once to reconize what it is! Of course it is a court that issues a warrent for Patriot Act actions. A secret court and a blanket warrent, allowing Govt. LEO to do just about anything they care to do, without restriction.

Your rhetoric in favor of the Patriot Act would lead nearly anyone to believe you are for stripping all americans of their rights under the Constitution, anyone who disagrees with an oppressive authoritarian government or the Patriot Act.

The system of laws we had before Patriot act, settled law are more than powerful enough to prosecute crimes against the people of the United States. A government of the people does not need or should it be allowed to do the business of the people in secret (yes I know settled law on wiretap). The Patriot act is nothing less than a shadow government, a government against the people.

You are asking one to trust the government! I don't!

Giant

[Mr. James]

CMichael wrote:

Giant i am afraid you should read it again because that is not what it says. It is a court that issues the warrants. It makes it easier to obtain them.

And Giant wrote:

Of course it is a court that issues a warrent for Patriot Act actions. A secret court and a blanket warrent, allowing Govt. LEO to do just about anything they care to do, without restriction.

Aye, sirs, and that's the problem. It makes it too easy to obtain them. And while to suggest the PATRIOT act is not a gun control measure may, arguably, be true today (I don't believe that's the case), I'm afraid I don't share your optimism that this same broadened discretion to go after the jihadists could not be turned against us, or against any other unpopular group. RICO, anyone?

Is it not possible to go after jihadistan without setting up powers which will, without fail, be broadened to cover other groups?

Does anyone really think we'll ever have a ticker-tape parade down 5th Avenue celebrating our victory in the "War Against Terror"

Ain't gonna happen, folks.

[rock jock]

Does anyone really think we'll ever have a ticker-tape parade down 5th Avenue celebrating our victory in the "War Against Terror"
No, but the flip side is certainly a possibility - terrorists holding a ticker-tape parade celebrating our demise.

[MJRW]

Where is this terrorism? What have we stopped? They keep talking about all this eminent terrorism but I have yet to be suicide bombed. And I highly doubt the fact that I haven't has anything at all to do with the Patriot Act.

[Seeker]

Well Ian what is it that you want to do that is now constrained because of the Patriot Act?

Live a private life, with Freedom from govt supervison.

I guess you're one of those folks that'll welcome govt agents into your home any time they want to "have a look around", after all if you have nothing to hide, why not let the govt search your home anytime they want. Folks like that make me sick!

The USA PATRIOT ACT should never have been passed! Those that voted for it, without reading it, should be impeached for treason.

[spartacus2002]

Our "meddling" has been a stabilizing precense in the ME and has almost certainly averted a major regional war between Israel and the surrounding Arabic countries that would have had a catastrophic and long-lasting impact on the world.

at the price of jeopardizing the safety of 290+million Americans who live in fear of terrorism, whose land of liberty is becoming a police state. Please define for me the impact you refer to.

Our "meddling" prevented Saddam from controlling 40% of the world's oil reserves and from completing his WMD project well underway before Gulf War I.

oil reserves he would have sold on the world market anyway. What was he going to do with 40% of the world's oil except sell it? Would he eat the oil? Use it to fry chicken? Keep his own car running and nobody else's?

WMDs? Gee, if WMDs are in and of themselves justification for getting conquered, I guess Israel, Pakistan, Russia, India, China, and maybe some other countries are who we're conquering next, right? Right after ourselves, right?

Our "meddling" in Bosnia kept tens, or possibly hundreds of thousands of Muslims from being ethnically cleansed and from being completely pushed out of their homeland.

our initial meddling included an arms embargo that kept those Muslims from getting arms with which they would defend themselves. You can't kill your parents and then beg for mercy on the grounds you're an orphan.

Our "meddling" in Somalia allowed thousands of Muslims to eat, at least until a few thugs decided our "meddling" was only helping the starving masses and doing nothing for their own power base.

NOTE TO SELF: don't ever cite Somalia as a success story.

Our "meddling" has led to diplomatic ties between Egypt and Israel, something most people assumed was impossible.

and why are these ties our business?

And finally, if a Palestinian state ever comes to pass, i.e., if Hamas and other terror groups do not derail the process for their own personal gain, it will only be because our "meddling" has facilitated the process.

Hmmm, let's see. How many nations on the globe stay out of the Palestinian state issue? And of those, how many are targeted by terrorists?

I don't care one way or the other whether Israel or "Palestine" ever do or do not exist. However, when it puts 290+million Americans at risk, I do have to ask for some justification why it is the US' business.

"America does not go forth in search of dragons to slay" was good advice then, good advice now.

[JDSlack]

My concern with TPA (and I think the title itself is somewhat Orwellian) is that I believe that it will become abused in the future.

I don't care what crime you are accused of,or suspected of, no citizen of the United States should be imprisioned without trial, Habeas Corpus, or access to a lawyer (not a lawyer fan, but they have their uses) ala Padilla. If any law enforcement agency thinks they have probable cause to arrest someone, bring 'em into court and convict 'em on the evidence. TPA allows the government too much leeway in denying basic rights, and I think that at some point in the future it will be used to pursue an oppressive path.

What happens if some less conservative administration gets into power in DC? Just think what Clinton and Reno could have done with this law. You can bet that Schumer and his ilk would love to bend TPA to include gun owners. I can just see it, "Why, the only reason they have .50 cal weapons is to commit acts of terror." Or, "...having 100 rounds of .223 ammo is evidence of evil intent."

When a governement, even in a great country like this one, gains new power over its citizens, it never willingly surrenders it.

[Justin]

Perhaps you can cite examples of American citizens who have been held unjustly (in other words were accused wrongly)?
Just because a law hasn't been abused yet doesn't suddenly make it all magically Constitutional. This is a patently stupid argument, because you're asking for an unconstitutional law to remain on the books until some innocent slob gets sacrificed on the alter of the state. Once that happens, will you then give credence to all who have been critical of the PATRIOT Act, or will you just close your eyes and chalk it up as an acceptable cost to remain free from terrorists?

[Ian]

Perhaps you can cite examples of American citizens who have been held unjustly (in other words were accused wrongly)? Yes, I can. Despite being secret, a few of the prisoners' stories have been discovered. Not that they were unjustly accused, though...because they weren't accused of anything!

http://www.freemikehawash.org/press/genfaq.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/04/06/60minutes/main548023.shtml

[Zander]

...because they weren't accused of anything! -- IanDidn't you hear?

"Hawash, who has been held as a material witness, was charged with conspiracy to levy war against the United States, conspiracy to provide services to the Taliban and al Qaeda and conspiracy to provide material support and resources to terror organizations, the Justice Department said." CNN.com, 24 April 03

Do a THR search, read the facts and give it a rest...

[Ian]

Crap, you're right - I was looking at dated info. After five weeks of detention, they did charge him. In seven months (assuming trial isn't delayed further) we'll get to hear the evidense they claim incriminates him. What a great justice system.

[Tamara]

Besides, who really needs a Sixth Amendment, anyway? The Second Amendment is the only one we care about!

[raveon59]

Hey Tamara, The 1st comes 1st but we need the 2nd to protect the 1st-just my opinion-but what do I now I'm watchin the BeeGees...

[dustind]

How many pages of laws were passed after 9/11? The patriot act was written a long time ago, and waiting under a rock to emerge. People have agendas, this was not written as a response to anything, it was pulled out and terrorism was the excuse.

I do not think we will see any abuses until after the sunset is gone, it would be dumb for them to not lay low and show how it wont be abused right now.

I cut a few irrelivant parts out to make it shorter.
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.

Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

Does the constitution not mean anything anymore?

"Well Ian what is it that you want to do that is now constrained because of the Patriot Act?"

Speak and act freely, my phone conversations can be recorded.
Serf the net freely, any websites I visit can be tracked, as can any communication of any kind.
My computer can be bugged.(do a search on software bugs that the FBI uses, scary stuff)
My home can be searched without my knowledge when I am not home, that actually may effect me because I research(and have working devices) electrostatics, Tesla turbines, and a few other things.
I would prefer to be able to spend the rest of my life outside of a secret jail.

Seriously, do some of you even care about the consititution, or do you believe that the patriot act, and possible even pa2 don't violate it?