Best .375 H&H for the dollar?


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MCNETT
June 5, 2003, 01:20 PM
I am going to purchase a .375 for moose this season. That being said, I want to know the consensus on which rifles are favored and which one I should shy away from.
-Mike

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BigG
June 5, 2003, 01:26 PM
Look at the CZ550 Magnum.

TABING
June 5, 2003, 01:31 PM
Without a doubt, a CZ 550 Magnum is the best option, better than most other commercial rifles and less than half the price. I got a 416 Rigby and it's great! Controlled feed, Mauser action with a BIG reliable claw extractor and as extra bonus, a set trigger that lets off at a crisp1 1/ 2 pounds.

I have 3 CZ rifles and am very satisfied with all of them.

MCNETT
June 5, 2003, 02:01 PM
What should I expect to pay for the CZ?

Atticus
June 5, 2003, 03:46 PM
I've seen them selling recently between $688 -$749. Gunsamerica has a few NIB on their site in .375 and .416.

B27
June 5, 2003, 04:04 PM
A thread I started recently when I bought a CZ 550 in .375 H&H...

http://sigforum.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=674608412&f=9666031561&m=64560911

Mike Irwin
June 5, 2003, 05:51 PM
Damn, for that price I should pick one up.

Not to hunt with, as I really don't hunt much anymore, but more to have...

Wildalaska
June 5, 2003, 06:24 PM
Hi I would go with the Winchester Model 70 in stainless..

1.Cost max about $749
2.Stainless steel
3.More versatility in scope mounting
4.US made

WildimhoAlaska

B27
June 5, 2003, 06:38 PM
Mike-
That's why I got mine. i have no intention of hunting with it. Haven't hunted in decades.
I just wanted a big belted magnum size bolt action around to mess with. :D

Atticus
June 5, 2003, 09:24 PM
If I had $700 to spare I'd placed an order with these guys a week ago. The local High School team is "The Lions". Good enough reason for me to own one.

A little online confession: I was trying to sell my AR15 a few weeks ago so that I could buy one of these. I was ashamed to admit that this Ohio boy wanted a .375 H&H. I ended up trading AR's with a co-worker that wanted to upgrade. Now I have another AR and enough cash to by two or three boxes of .375 ammo. What can I say...it's a start.

http://www.impactguns.com/store/cz_safari_mag.html

cdbeaver
June 5, 2003, 10:50 PM
Friend of mine took a Model 70 Winchester in .375 H&H Mag to Africa last year. Bagged 11 animals with 15 shots (some were taken with a .30-06).

Included in the bag was a one-shot kill of a cape buffalo. He was very pleased with the .375. Might take it to Australia with him this fall. Hear the 'roos are really tough to put down.

By the way, the trophy fee just to shoot at a cape buffalo is $7,000. I prefer prairie dogs, myself.

B27
June 5, 2003, 11:00 PM
Yeah but going in the holes after the wounded ones gives me the jim jams.

PJR
June 5, 2003, 11:15 PM
The .375 is probably more than you need for moose but better too much gun that not enough.

The CZ is very good advice but were I so inclined, I'd get a Ruger #1H. One shot should get the job done and they are very neat rifles.

ACP230
June 5, 2003, 11:26 PM
I shot one of the CZ .375s a few years ago.
I liked the rifle, but not the set trigger.
I don't think they belong on a rifle that might be used on dangerous critters. Give me a smooth three pound regular trigger instead.

I shot a Colt Sauer .375 the same afternoon. I had always disliked the way they looked, but handling and shooting one made it look a lot better.

B27
June 5, 2003, 11:36 PM
The single set trigger on mine, when used un-set, is indeed right at about 3 or 4 pounds. When set it feels like maybe 1 1/2.

Glamdring
June 6, 2003, 04:21 AM
My pick in the Ruger No. 1 it is the next hunting rifle on my list. I've already started buying ammo.

nextjoe
June 6, 2003, 09:16 PM
I'll join the chorus praising the CZs. If you don't like the set trigger, all you have to do is either A) ignore it or B) disable it. Nothing to lose sleep over :-D

I don't think you can get a better rifle without spending at least 2 or 3 times as much. My CZ .416 Rigby is my favorite rifle, by a wide margin.

As much as I like the Winchester Model 70, I'd have a VERY hard time trusting a current-production one.

Best,
Joe

Gordon
June 6, 2003, 10:39 PM
Well Dane Burns convinced me Wild Alaska IS correct in selecting the Win mod 70 as it takes $700 or more dollars EXTRA to make a CZ 550 into the perfect choice. The Win Mod 70 is pretty good to go, for the $.:cool:

Atticus
June 6, 2003, 10:58 PM
Dane Burns would tell you it takes a grand to make a BHP, 1911 or Glock any good.

nextjoe
June 6, 2003, 10:59 PM
Gordon,

While I respect Dane's opinion, I have to disagree here.

First, I'd like to know what exactly needs to be done to the CZ to make it "perfect", and why it costs exactly $700. Mine worked perfectly fine out of the box. It didn't NEED anything extra, other than bedding. I went ahead and had quite a bit of custom work done to make it exactly what I wanted, make it "perfect" FOR ME, but only the bedding job could really be considered necessary. "Perfect" is a pretty subjective thing. For some people, "perfect" comes right out of the factory box. For others, "perfect" means a gunsmith bill that could buy a good used car.

Second, Dane Burns, as a custom 1911 smith, probably makes a good portion of his income from replacing MIM parts with "real" parts. A lot of people, myself included, don't want any MIM in our guns. Winchester, in the past couple of years, has switched three of the most critical parts of the Model 70 (trigger, sear, and extractor) to MIM. A failure in any one of those parts is BAD news. If I went with a new Model 70, those would all be round-filed immediately and replaced with "real" parts, including a spring-steel extractor. Not "good to go," at least for me.

USRAC/Winchester quality control has also been spotty lately. Several sources, including "Gun Tests" magazine, reported on Model 70s in belted magnum cartridges that wouldn't feed reliably. There was a quiet recall of stainless Model 70s last year for defective safeties. Then there's the relatively common problem of the receiver bridge being machined improperly, with the result being a scope that runs out of adjustment before it can be zeroed.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Model 70 *design*. I have some problems with the current *execution* of that design. For my money, the CZ is MILES ahead of the current Winchesters.

Best,
Joe

B27
June 7, 2003, 12:30 AM
The CZ design, which eliminates separate bases by machining them directly into the receiver itself, strikes me as a big plus right there.
There's four less screws to fail at a really embarassing moment.

Gordon
June 7, 2003, 12:56 AM
Dane mentioned the bedding as being deficient, but also said the trigger position in th guard was too far forward , the sights were not good and the bolt needed some work . Now the reason he said this was I suggested the CZ550 to somebody looking for a .375. I have a custom SS700 Rem that is pretty light and it has served me in Alaska and else where for 5 years. My first .375 was 25 years ago with a high grade custom FN mauser that is now a retired safe queen. But I said if I was buying the CZ looked good. Now Dane has several beautiful CZ's with his .505 wildcat about purrrfect DGR in my book with 21"barrel , nice fiberglass stock and major metal work so he does like CZ's and has used them. However he said the mod 70 Win .375 with syn stock was USEABLE as is (obviously one without defects) and convinced ME of the wisdom of his choice. Also this choice is echoed by Mad Dog, who is not a big fan of Dane's . So I think there might be some truth here.

BusMaster007
June 7, 2003, 02:24 AM
Gordon,

You're the first one I've seen here post about a Remington 700 / .375.
Please tell me to what extent your Remington 700 is customized.

I'm likely to use the 700 as that's what I've been accustomed to, but, I'm attracted to the A-Bolt II for the unusual features of the detachable magazine and BOSS.

You may have seen my post re the Browning A-Bolt II in .375 H&H, which I'm leaning heavily towards at the moment.

I'm going to get one or the other in this cartridge.
I've just got to get the intel to sway me toward a 'Tactical' 700 or a 'Semi-Custom' A-Bolt II.

I'm interested in the confidence you have or have not in the 700.
Others on the board here may find your comments very useful, as well.
Thanks.:)

Wildalaska
June 7, 2003, 02:28 AM
Winchester, in the past couple of years, has switched three of the most critical parts of the Model 70 (trigger, sear, and extractor) to MIM. A failure in any one of those parts is BAD news. If I went with a new Model 70, those would all be round-filed immediately and replaced with "real" parts, including a spring-steel extractor. Not "good to go," at least for me.

I have yet to see a failure in any of those parts...under the most severe conditions...how many have you actually observed..

USRAC/Winchester quality control has also been spotty lately. Several sources, including "Gun Tests" magazine, reported on Model 70s in belted magnum cartridges that wouldn't feed reliably.

Sorry, again I have yet to observe that....and Win 70 375s are very prevelant up here... How many have you seen? How many guns did Gun Tests test?

There was a quiet recall of stainless Model 70s last year for defective safeties.

Glock has had a recall, Blaser had one, Remington...Winchester had about a three day turnaround up here as I recall, on thier recall. So what? .

Then there's the relatively common problem of the receiver bridge being machined improperly, with the result being a scope that runs out of adjustment before it can be zeroed.

Ive never seen one on a Win 70 375! How many have you seen? I have seen numerous problems with scope zeroing on integral mounts like the Ruger and the CZ...

For my money, the CZ is MILES ahead of the current Winchesters.

Guess thats why you see so many Win 375 stainless rifles here in Alaska, and so few CZs.:D

nextjoe
June 7, 2003, 02:28 AM
Bedding is probably going to need work on ANY big-bore factory rifle, and the CZs are no exceptions.

I don't really understand what's "not good" about the sights on the CZ. it has a three-leaf express rear sight dovetailed into an integral base on the barrel and a replaceable bead on a banded ramp up front. It's the classic sight setup for a big-bore, and it works very well, being quick and extremely rugged.

The Winchester actually had a pretty poor rear sight at one time (I don't know if they still use it) that was held on by only one screw.

The trigger is far forward because of the set feature. You need to be able to put a thumb or finger behind the trigger in order to push it forward to the set position, so there has to be some room behind it. The set trigger itself is a pretty debatable feature, at least for the magnum rifles. I'd actually prefer a Model 70 style trigger instead, but the one CZ uses is safe and reliable, and the set feature can be disabled if you really can't stand it. Ted Blackburn is or was working on a replacement trigger assembly, which would be really nice. Mine will probably get one if Ted produces them.

I'm not sure what he meant by the bolt needing work. It can be smoothed up by careful stoning (mine's now VERY smooth), and the factory bolt handle is a bit ugly. Still, it's totally functional right out of the box.

No, the CZs aren't perfect... But by my yardstick, you'd have to move up to a Dakota 76 action or a Granite Mountain action to get a better basis for a big bore, and you're talking what, 4 or 5 times the cost of the complete CZ for a bare action? At that price level, the darn thing had BETTER be perfect! :D

Best,
Joe

nextjoe
June 7, 2003, 02:51 AM
WildAlaska,

I'm not claiming that the Winchester is crap and the CZ is the greatest gun in the world. They're very closely related designs and I like both. But if I had to buy one of the two I'd trust the CZ more than the Winchester. You apparently disagree. That's fine.

Taking your questions in order...

I haven't seen a failure of any MIM part in a Model 70, nor did I claim to. I said a lot of people, myself included, don't trust MIM in their guns. I especially don't trust it on the most critical components of a gun that may be needed to save my hide someday.

First-hand observations of belted mag feeding problems? One, a Model 70 Classic .375 I saw at the range. Two reports on Accurate Reloading. The Gun Tests article. Gun Tests tests individual guns, as we all know, and we all know that everyone makes a lemon now and again. Still, that's enough to make me leery.

As for the safety recall, to me it shows a lapse in QC on Winchester's part. They've been making Model 70 safeties, with some variations, since when, 1937? They should have the bugs worked out by now [sarcasm].

The receiver bridge problem: I've seen pictures of one and heard from two gunsmiths and the people at Talley that it's not uncommon, at least for one run of guns. I'm sure you can call Gary Turner at Talley and ask him about it. Again, a lapse in QC. And again, something they should have the bugs worked out of by now:)

I've heard (but not seen) one or two reports of problems with the CZ integral mounts, and have experienced problems with Rugers. I never said that CZs were perfect, just that some Winchesters had a problem.

Regarding what people use in Alaska, well, it seems like most people there want stainless guns, which CZ doesn't make. So if you want stainless, you're stuck with having to settle for a Winchester [sarcasm again].

Again, I LOVE THE MODEL 70, especially my Featherweight Pre-'64, I just have some doubts about how well they're being made right now. I don't like seeing cost-cutting on guns. I feel the same way about Smith & Wesson (leaving aside the whole "agreement" issue).

Best,
Joe

Wildalaska
June 7, 2003, 03:01 AM
The receiver bridge problem: I've seen pictures of one and heard from two gunsmiths and the people at Talley that it's not uncommon, at least for one run of guns. I'm sure you can call Gary Turner at Talley and ask him about it. Again, a lapse in QC. And again, something they should have the bugs worked out of by now

Well I can assure you that the bugs are worked out...I reiterate that I havent seen it and I am sure I have seen as many Winchester 70s as the guys as Talley have,,,,

And by the way, the Winchester is lighter, the rear sights have better adjustment, the actions are slicker and having shot both, the Win 375s are more accurate.

And I am a fan of CZ rifles I might add....

Gordon
June 7, 2003, 11:18 AM
This is a good thread and everyone polite so far. My Stainless Rem 700 has a Brown Precison Stock bedded by them and cut to fit me with a Pachy Decellarator pad. Since its not a varmint rifle I did not have them square the barrel to action . It shoots sub moa with the right load anywhooo. I jeweled the bolt to smooth it like glass and did the trigger to be a 3.5 lb icicle. I am very familiar with models 600/700 and have never had a failure with one in 30 years. I think the controlled round issue is largely BS but I still am a Mauser fanatic thank you and like I said I have one of those if I want to haul 3 more pounds of blued steel and figured Circassian around. The SS 700 .375 has a Gentry quiet brake cut to 22"and at 7.5lbs with Talley mounts and Leupold Vari=X 3 1.5x6 heavy duplex ..I have found at least to mid 90's Rem 700s to be bullet proof. Save the detachable magazines for the Assault rifles!:)

nextjoe
June 7, 2003, 11:27 AM
And by the way, the Winchester is lighter, the rear sights have better adjustment, the actions are slicker and having shot both, the Win 375s are more accurate

Yep, the Winchester is lighter. Pretty hard to argue with gravity :) Not a big deal to me, though.

Is that rear sight still held on by one tiny screw? It was on the last one I looked at. Pretty flimsy, compared to the dovetail on the CZ.

Actions are slicker? I don't know, I can't do a side-by-side comparison of new-in-box guns. Mine runs like it's on ball bearings since it was stoned, but it was pretty smooth right out of the box.

I've never seen or heard of an inaccurate CZ, the .375 has a reputation as an inherently accurate cartridge, and I've never seen ANY .375 that wasn't more than accurate enough for its intended use. Not a whole lot to argue about there.

I'd still go with the CZ :D

Best,
Joe

BusMaster007
June 7, 2003, 01:27 PM
:D Thanks, Gordon.
Now, I'm really confused!

With all the information, I've got to let it simmer for a while as I make up my mind which way to go with this .375 Project.

For you Winchester fans, I'll have you know my initial choice YEARS ago was the Model 70 Stainless...but, that was before I had MANY rifles and NOW most of them are Remingtons!

This is such a fine sickness we have, isn't it?;)

BigG
June 7, 2003, 06:29 PM
Geez. 20 bucks worth of AcraGlas is worth $700. That beats the stock market all to hell!

Volpe
June 8, 2003, 12:36 PM
You know I saw this thread and I just had to ask. I see how polite you guys are here so I'm hoping not to get "hammered" with this question.

Next year I'm going to Africa (plains game) 10 day hunt. I bought a new custom shop remington 7mm mag (mt. rifle with grey stock). At my age I really appreciate the reduced weight. Anyway, I was thinking of taking a second gun. One I have used for this purpose is a t/c encore because its plenty accurate enough and breaks down. Now I see where they offer a .375 H&h barrel for it for about $235 or so. I was thinking about getting this barrel for it. Any thoughts?? TIA....

Wildalaska
June 8, 2003, 02:33 PM
Is that rear sight still held on by one tiny screw? It was on the last one I looked at. Pretty flimsy, compared to the dovetail on the CZ.

Yep still there, but never seen one break.

WildandcheapertofixthanstoningtheactionandbeddingtherifleAlaska

BusMaster007
June 8, 2003, 02:39 PM
A link for the CZ fans here:

http://www.hunting-rifles.com/

BigG
June 8, 2003, 04:40 PM
Looks like AHR reinvented the 400 Whelen with their 411 Whatsis. Elmer Keith would love it! :cool:

nextjoe
June 8, 2003, 06:40 PM
Took me awhile to find this... It's from Jim Wisner, American Custom Gunmakers Guild member and producer of replacement parts for old Winchesters:

The current USRA extractors are made using the MIM process, This is powdered steel poured into a oversize mould. Allowed to set and then moved to another pressing set of dies. Where the part is compressed to size. It is then heat treated. Most of the time everthing works ok. But this part has a lot of thin areas that take stress. Thus the part breaks. I have seen them break in as little as 14 shots. I have also seen them last now for 8 years of use. The part is either soft, just right, or too brittle.

Just FYI. Personally, I won't have one on one of my guns.

Best,
Joe

H&Hhunter
June 8, 2003, 09:08 PM
One more vote for the win mod 70. And I do agree they have gone down the tubes in QC lately. Whats worse they seem un willing to fix it.

I own 6 Model 70 stainless rifles five 3 older ones and the rest newer.

the older ones are a 375H&H a 458 Lott based off of a .375 stainless and a 243.

The newer ones are a .300wsm and two .375H&Hs that are currently under going a sex change to 458Lott.

I must say that I was shocked and disgusted with the new Model 70's first and foremost they have these tinny P.O.C. followers with a spring that doesn't capture to anything and second both rifles had the recievers drilled out of line. USRAC is taking the worlds best rifle and plasticising it.

With that being said it's still one of the best .375 buys on the market given it's utility and basic design.

Oh and just by the way I think that the CZ would really be cool if it was made in stainless synthetic. And if they put the real safety back on it. I have seen a CZ 602 .458 jam tighter than a welded joint at the wrong moment. Just goes to show you real good ain't bullet proof.

TABING
June 8, 2003, 11:52 PM
H&H hunter

Which goes to show you that if you follow the 4 rules of gun safety, you don't need to use a safety.
1. A gun is always loaded.
2. Never point a gun at something you don't plan to shoot.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your eye is on the target.
4. Be sure of your taget, AND what is behind it.
You can never recall a fired bullet. If you've ever had a negligent (accidental) discharge, you probably have this burned into your brain.
End of sermon.
I find it a good policy to never rely on mechanical safeties on rifles.

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