[MattB000]

I apologize in advance for my own ignorance, but what exactly makes these guns so expensive?

[News Shooter]

But decided this would be better. This is a $3K Rizzini

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b240/notrevo/CondoMisc009.jpg

Engraving
Wood
Fit
Feel
Balance
Quality

[JohnBT]

And this is a new Remington that didn't sell for $300-and-something.

http://nas4.atlanta.gbhinc.com/GB/065431000/65431761/pix2083885268.jpg

The answer is attention to detail. The quality of the material and the fit of the parts.

A $2400 Guerini Woodlander 28 ga. O/U:

http://www.hunt101.com/img/306934.JPG

Where's that thread on expensive shotguns?

John

[SkunkApe]

Also barrel alignment adds cost. More expensive shotguns usually feature two barrels that center their patterns at approximately the same point. With cheap shotguns, barrel alignment tends to be hit and miss.

[JohnBT]

Here's one of the expensive shotgun threads. Some of the pictures that were posted are still available: www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=195294&highlight=rizzini

For $50k and up you can get a working gun that's a work of art as well. From David McKay Brown:

http://www.griffinhowe.com/gunpics/mck7820.jpg

[RNB65]

Lower dollar guns are forged then mass fabricated using CNC machines with just the absolute minimum amount of hand fitting needed to get the parts to fit together. They typically feature plain wood stocks and little or no engraving on the receivers.

High dollar guns are forged then completely hand fitted. With a hand fitted gun you get much more metal on metal contact which evenly spreads recoil energy around and results in a more durable gun. Toss in custom fitted stock, high grade wood and fancy custom engraving and the cost goes through the roof in a hurry.

p.s. $5000 is pretty cheap for a high end shotgun. An English made Purdey SxS will cost you $50,000+. Even a standard Krieghoff K80 sporting clays gun is $10,000+.

[Smitty in CT]

You can spend more than $5,000 on the wood alone......

Smitty

[00-Guy]

MattB000,

Welcome. New Guy buys the beer.

The following thread will give you some of your answers:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=197395

It is from back in the spring.

Paul

[rkh]

For that kind of money you get a pretty wood stock and some sort of bucolic engraving.

There's no quantum leap in performance over low-dollar models, and unless you're an Olympic competitor, having the smoothest action on the block isn't going to improve your shooting.

[The Deer Hunter]

My $400 Wingmaster works fine.

[Zero_DgZ]

While I agree with the spirit of the above (rkh), it doesn't always work that way. There's something to be said for paying more for a shotgun that works well, shoots straight, and operates reliably than 200 dollar Wal Mart junk. But I fail to see much reason to pay even more for one that has doily patterns engraved all over it, fancy metalwork and woodwork that will devalue if scratched, or a back story involving some Welsh nobleman or other beyond "because I can." Which is a good enough reason for anything, but not one I'll engage in on this front.

Besides, you could buy a 1000 dollar shotgun instead, still have an outstanding chunk of firearm, and spend the remaining 4000 bucks on clays and ammo.

[Oldnamvet]

Consider a car. Something with just the basics and no style will get you where you are going. But there is a lot of pleasure just in driving something much nicer. You still get from A to B in some amount of time but the trip was just a lot more enjoyable. I see it the same with a shotgun. There is more enjoyment for many in shooting a piece of art even if you don't shoot it any better than the old beater Stevens double you bought at a pawn shop. The feel, looks, balance,.....,everything about it makes it more fun.

[AndyC]

Also the laws of supply and demand - you have a small, world-famous custom shop which has been in business for a few hundred years. You have a limited number of gunsmithing artists whose skills are in such high demand that there's a waiting-list for years... charge whatever you want ;)

[theCZ]

In my opinion there are two types of 5k+ shotguns. Type I are the extraordinarily incredible wood and engraving that are fitted for the customer and meticulously manufactured. Type II shotguns are made for competitors that will put hundreds of thousands of rounds through them and still have them function as well as the day they were new. I was watching a skeet video by Todd Bender and he's been shooting the same Kriegoff (sp?) for 30 years now. I don't know for sure, but I'll bet he puts at least 50,000 rounds a year through his gun. When you consider that he's probably never had a breakdown or serious malfunction with his gun, the $10k he probably spent on it seems like a decent price. How many cars can you spend $10k on and drive 200,000 miles a year and still have them shiny and new in 30 years?

For the record, my most expensive gun is a $1850 Over Under I use for skeet and sporting clays. If I was to get a lifetime over/under I'd probably pick up the base line Blaser F3 for about $5k, no engraving, decent wood, but it's put together very well.

[AndyC]

I hate having Perazzi tastes and a CBC income ;)

[RNB65]

I was watching a skeet video by Todd Bender and he's been shooting the same Kriegoff (sp?) for 30 years now. I don't know for sure, but I'll bet he puts at least 50,000 rounds a year through his gun.

Nothing last forever. Something little like a spring can break at any time on the most expensive shotguns. And even Krieghoff's wear out around 250,000 rounds or so. That's when it goes back to Krieghoff for a rebuild. It will come back as good as new.

[scrat]

one of the best in the world. most expensive too.


http://www.hollandandholland.com/home.htm


http://www.hollandandholland.com/showpic.php?file=uploads%2Ftx_p7gunlist%2F51126a.jpg&width=1000m&height=740m&bodyTag=%3Cbody%20style%3D%22margin%3A%200%3B%20padding%3A%201px%3B%20text-align%3A%20center%3B%20background-color%3A%20%23fff%3B%22%3E&wrap=%3Ca%20href%3D%22javascript%3Aclose%28%29%3B%22%3E%20%7C%20%3C%2Fa%3E%3Cbr%20%2F%3E%3Ca%20href%3D%22javascript%3Aclose%28%29%3B%22%3E%3Cimg%20style%3D%22margin%3A%204px%20auto%3B%22%20src%3D%22fileadmin%2Fgraphics%2Fbtn_close.gif%22%20width%3D%2258%22%20height%3D%2221%22%20border%3D%220%22%20%2F%3E%3C%2Fa%3E&md5=1cdbaf7c14759408fac0140e79d3d05f

London price 63005, so whats the conversion to U.S. dollars

[jeepmor]

:cool: way out of my league, I appreciate it immensely. Hot rod guns with the price of a luxury car or a real hot rod. I'm a jeep guy, none of this fancy stuff on the spartan jeep trail, these guns deserve better than that.

Cool stuff, love the craftsmanship as a former woodworker, and appreciate the art in the engraving. It would be tough to clean the muck out of it for sure. Still, not my thing, I live in the PNW and hunt out of a CJ7 in the rain and muck frequently, and miles of dust and bumpy roads on good summer days.

Shotguns are nice as works of art and function in the regards that field and clays guns can be in service for decades and not show much wear, if any, with simple care. Not so much from my bumpy jeep in those places few other rigs make it on the rainy days in the PNW. I own a few stainless guns on that note.

[pete f]

sure, some like wingmasters, but it is like KIA vs BMW vs Ferrari.

A kia will get you to work just fine.

A BMW will make driving to the club more fun.

A Ferrari will make driving to your estate home that much nicer....

And the points about looks vs function are there as well as the function vs enjoyment.

[brentwal]

sure, some like wingmasters, but it is like KIA vs BMW vs Ferrari.

A kia will get you to work just fine.

A BMW will make driving to the club more fun.

A Ferrari will make driving to your estate home that much nicer....

And the points about looks vs function are there as well as the function vs enjoyment.


But the guy in the Kia is a better driver.

[rkh]

I disagree with the car analogy. A high-end sports car opens up a world of motorsports that is simply inaccessable to cheesebox economy coupe owners.

While I don't competitively shoot shotguns, I would be surprised to learn that the competitive edge provided by a Krieghoff relative to a Wingmaster is in any way comparable to that of a Ferrari over a Renault.

A more appropriate comparison would be... say... any car versus a riced-out example of the same make and model. They both get you to where you want to go in the same amount of time, but the spinning rims, enormous spoiler, carbon hood, underlit chassis and other bling found on the latter demonstrates that its owner not only has a large amount of disposable income, but also (and perhaps more importantly) that he has game.

[JohnBT]

"My $400 Wingmaster works fine."

My $199.95 870 Express Magnum works fine too, want to trade? :)

But, you might say, a Wingmaster has real walnut and not painted hardwood, and it's polished and blued instead of beadblasted and blued. And you'd be right, but the Express does everything the Wingmaster does and even shoots 3" shells. Everything except feel quite right and look quite right.

Same thing with my black synthetic 1100 from Wal-Mart. Great gun for $328, but it's just not the same as a walnut and blue one. Doesn't handle the same, feel the same and certainly doesn't look as good.

Like the Filson catalog says "Why not have the best."

John

P.S. - I've been driving my dad's '06 Avalon and it's a surprising car. It's surprised a bunch of modded-import wannabe road racers. I didn't know it would do 0-60 in 6.5. Neither did they it seems. :D

[45auto]

One reason the prices are high is the devaluation of the dollar and most "highend" shotguns are O/U and not made in the USA.

But, in plain grade competition guns the handfitting, quality of materials, options and the "service" level is head and shoulders above the "production" guns...as is the price.

Prices have really "spiked" in the last several years IMO. From my "experience" over the years the Perazzi level was about 3 times the cost of a Browning, for example. I think that's about 4 times now and the Kreighoff is about 5 times now...offhand and from memory. kreighoff was always more expensive than Perazzi. Not because it was "worth more" IMO, simply because they could "get it".

Keep in mind, they don't sell many new guns each year either. There are a lot of them around because they are durable, rebuildable and can be a good used buy! Expensive to rebuild by the way!

[ialevy]

Why is it whenever the question of high-dollar guns comes up, there is always people chiming in with the fact that they out shoot people using $80,000 FerazziBMW shotguns with their $20 crap-stick.

I drive BMWs. Owning the car doesn't make me a better driver, it makes me want to be a better driver. I take driver's schools and track days that most folks that just use a car as a box to take them from point A to B never would. So, yes, I probably am a better driver than the average Kia owner:)

It seems we all want to be Hollywood - style lower class heros. Showing up the rich folks with their down to earth skills and knowledge.

I have shot with rich guys and their Perazzis (with my $1400 Benelli auto) and they were some of the nicest shooters I have met. I did not feel like the odd man out.

Jealousy is NOT The High Road

[Dave McCracken]

Our species has prettied up its weapons since chipped flint was the state of the art.

My B-gun is the most expensive firearm I've ever bought. It's also Beretta's entry level O/U. It has the same action as the $4K models, just not as pretty wood nor engraving. It'll last just as long.

I handled a Blaser F 3 the other day. Another Pure D competition gun. List on that is about $6K. It's about the most expensive non blinged O/U around. After that the money goes for esthetics.

Some stuff isn't for use. More for looks and braggin' rights.

Were I to hit the Megamillions or answer all of Alex's questions I'd probably squander some shekels on pretty firearms. But, all of them would be using guns, not collector's trophies.

[Cesiumsponge]

I have always wondered why so many people seem to put down CNC machines as devices for "mass production, low quality". CNC devices are much more precise than human eyes or hands can ever be. They are computers and do as good/bad as the programmer and tool selection will allow it to. If something is streamlined for high quantity production, the product will obviously be rougher than a program and tooling for a more refined part. Even entry level commercial CNC machinery is good to 0.0001" . A sheet of paper is 40 times thicker than that.

I can see the point behind warmth, craftsmanship, craftsmen, and hand fitting/made items and why people pay high dollar for such pieces (often considered high art) but I see CNC put down a lot; it really bugs me for some reason.

[45auto]

High end guns manufacturers do use CNC machines. But, they add a lot of handfitting also. At least, Kreighoff and Perazzi.

[Smith357]

In a word;

Craftsmanship

To get real old world Craftsmanship you need to spend about 35-150k. :)

[00-Guy]

Heh Cesium,

What 45auto said is correct. For example, Ljutic uses CNC for the production of their guns. Check out this thread, http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=2337062#post2337062 I talk about my visit to the Ljutic factory and their use of CNC.

Enjoy,
Paul

[koja48]

It's all part of a conspiracy to keep my drool reflex working & my dreams
lofty . . .

[Cesiumsponge]

Thanks for the link to the factory tour, very cool! Looks like I'll have to travel southeast and pay Ljutic a visit some time! I have still yet to do any firearm factory tours here...I know of at least one other I'd like to visit (Olympic Arms)

Like I posted before, I understand the premium when it comes to handmade and I've even paid premiums for handmade stuff before. It just seems to me that in general, CNC is frowned upon. Maybe I feel especially strong about it because I work around CNC stuff and I hear a lot of people in different consumer industries throwing the term around a lot for the wrong reasons. Anyhow, great stuff, need that hand applied craftsmanship to remove tooling marks anyhow rather than throw it in a cheap and easy vibroburr.

[scrat]

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a155/scrat36/b265a5d8bc.jpg


63005 euros. or london price. who knows the conversion on that.

holland and holland 12 guage

[billp]

First time I had my Charles Daly 20 gauge sxs 26 in m/f to replace my stevens 311 sxs 28 in shotgun chukar hunting, I stook on large round rock on the bank of the snake river after hunting chuckars (http://www.prosefights.org/msd/chukar/chukar.htm).

The rock rolled.

And I put a horrible gouge in the stock.

Welcome to the real world.

[4fingermick]

shoot an entry level Beretta sporter for everything. It is a nice gun and is pretty well engraved for a reasonably priced O/U, althought the wood looks like plastic and the butt plate is plastic.

I got to handle a $15,000 Beretta, the action looked the same, but that's where the similarity ended. It felt different, sorta sat in the hands reallllll nice, closed up like a vault door and was a lively gun on the point. I could see where the money went. The wood was out of this world and when the guy bought the gun, the stock was a block and the pistol grip was roughly shaped. Once sold they carve the stock to suit the new buyer. Nice. Out of my league, but nice.

I used to pan Mercs before I got to drive one on a regular basis (worked one day per week as a rep for my friend, used his car). The door, closed with a satisying chunook! Everything was firm, sound. It was a pleasure to drive and I shut up, I could see where the moeny went.

[zinj]

The major appeal of high-end shotguns is prestige, and that the gun is built for the owner's taste.

The main practical differences are that a high-end gun is going to be fitted to the owner out of the box, unlike an off the shelf shotgun. The gun will withstand more shooting between tune-ups, and some guns have modular parts that can be replaced in the clubhouse (an important feature for very serious competitors, who cannot afford to have a gun go down in the middle of a shoot).

For most owners, however, I think it is the apogee of their gun collection. For example, most clay shooters start with a pump or automatic. After a while the lure of the O/U becomes too strong and they buy one of the base grade B guns, and at some point they upgrade to a competition B gun. Eventually they want to have the "best," and order a high-end gun. Most of the people I have seen shooting high-end shotguns are 50 or older, and are veteran shooters. The K or P gun is kind of the end of the road.

EDIT:
I can't resist commenting on the "I beat those snooty guys with $5000 guns with my $50 single shot" stories.

The shooters I have seen who own P or K guns are going shooting at least 3-4 times a week, 100-200 targets a time, and have been doing this for years. They are almost always shooting at least into the 20's in trap, and most are shooting straights.

I wouldn't say that everyone spouting about how they can beat the big guns is lying, but there sure are alot of fishing stories out there.

Which is not to assume that there aren't excellent shooters using production O/U's or automatics, or even pumps. Rather, anyone who drops 5k or more on a shotgun is pretty serious about their sport.

[sm]

Interesting how over the years the monies spent for something continue to be debated.

Folks used to save up and buy one firearm, and for many that is all they had to use.
Pocket knives the same thing occurred. Lot of money when one figured what a day's pay bought, a $2 pocket knife was a lot of money.

I remember thinking as I looked at my paycheck , after all the taxes, withholding and all -
"If could get a raise from $1.50 an hour to $1.65, why I would be doing REAL good!"

"$85 a week, wow, thanks for the raise!"

"$100 a week? Wow, this is a lot of money!"

Funny how gas quit being 17 cents a gallon during a 'gas war' , sorta liked that over the 22 cents a gallon.
$3 meant I could put gas in borrowed car, take that good looking Brunette out for a Burger and Malt, and take in a Picture Show.

Funny how glass soda bottles brought me 2 cents each and as soon as these brought 3 cents a bottle, my .box of .22 ctgs went from 15 cents to 18 cents.

$5000 for a shotgun? It is relative. Pride of ownership, Quality Craftsmanship, Attention to detail has always cost a bit more. Always will.

Remington 1100 I used to buy for $159. Marlin 60 for $34.95. Ruger MKI sold for $24.95 and one could order it using a post card from the magazine and the Postman delivered to your house - even C.O.D. if wanted.

My Colt Combat Commander 1911 brand new I bought myself for a HS graduation gift in '73 best recall was a lot of money, $165 was a lot of money back then.

I sure miss them Nickel Coca-Colas , in that little red ice box with a cylinder that spun when you raised it. Those 6 1/2 oz Cokes always had ice in the neck of the glass bottle.
I still say those tasted better than the Cokes of today.

Bread 29 cents a loaf, Five huge homemade hamburgers for $1 down at the Mom&Pop drive-in, McDonald's was not even a franchise. Them 15 cent hamburgers McD's were "dinky" and "not homemade tasting", cup of coffee for a nickel, banannas 7 cents a pound...

What did you pay for a candy bar today?

All Relative.

[PJR]

Sitting at a friend's house one afternoon we were chatting about guns and he asked me what I'd paid for a certain gun. When I told him he was aghast. "You paid THAT much for a gun?"

I looked into his front yard and asked how much that fancy snowmobile had cost him. I knew it was about 50 per cent more than my shotgun. Then I asked him how often he used it and what it was worth on the resale market.

Case closed. :D

[koja48]

No kidding . . . my Daughter still gave me funny looks over a high-dollar fly rod purchase ("It's just a fishing pole!" NOT! I suggested trading her fine over/under for a used & "well-charactered" JC Higgins pump . . . she saw the light). A passion, when pursued within one's means, is a fine thing, a rare treasure, and as the years go by, we have earned that option.

[scrat]

nickel coca colas. i remember those. wow

[koja48]

In bottles & on a hot summer day, with beads of sweat the size of cherry pits on the bottle when you took one out of the cooler . . . what a treat!

[huntsman]

The truth is when you buy a high value gun your getting quality; quality in materials, quality in workmanship.

Also high dollar guns tend to be a SXS or O/U
Because it just costs more to make them and the folks who spend the money want this type shotgun and are willing to pay for it.

When you consider what people pay for high quality stereos or televisions, I think $5000. For a quality gun is cheap .After all if taken care of, it will last for generations give pride in ownership, protection, food and entertainment.

What each of has to decide is at what cost or "price" are we satisfied with the quality of our guns.

To some it's an 870 express to others maybe a citori or other B gun, or Merkel or K gun, at some point most folks will say I'm comfortable owning this "model" at what I paid for it.

[dpote]

"When you shoot it, you will know where that extra money went"

Holland and Holland (http://horseandcountry.opusstream.net/Sports_and_Pastimes/noplugin). The link is to a movie about how their guns are made, and not the H&H website.

I'm trying to get my eyeballs back into my skull.

Dave

[Ian Sean]

The wood on that David McKay Brown shotgun is absolutely awesome, how beautiful.

Some of this thread reminds me of a conversation I had a while back on some celebrity or whoever that had a $300,000 wedding or some such.

Joe Schmo was saying jeez can you believe spending THAT MUCH on a wedding...my reply was hey, it is their money...to do with as they please, and not only that look at where the money goes, the caterer, banquet hall, limo drivers, entertainment, florists....in other words right back into the economy.

It all equals out for the most part.:)

Bobs Gun Company....makes 200 shotguns a month for $250 = $50,000

Fancy Shmancy Arms...makes 10 shotguns a month for $5,000 = $50,000

Oh and yes, if I had the disposable income I would have some high dollar works of art myself.;)

[The Deer Hunter]

The best trap shooter at my club uses the 870 Wingmaster he got on his 18th birthday. (its like 30 something years old).


Just becauase you payed $5000 for a shotgun doesn't mean jack. The proof is on the range, in the field and on the dinner table.

[4fingermick]

Scrat, that's a bit over $US83,000.00, a bit of of my league.

[JohnBT]

"Just becauase you payed $5000 for a shotgun doesn't mean jack. The proof is on the range, in the field and on the dinner table."

I know for a fact that I enjoy missing with a good looking gun more than I do with an inexpensive one. :)

IOW, it certainly hasn't hurt my shooting any.

John

[seatofmypants]

I shoot a KX-5, and two months after I purchased the gun the stock broke, right at the tang. The wood was very dark, and broke on a black swirl that went from the tang to the trigger. I called Allems guns (Nancy wasn't very helpful at all) and thought I was going to have a big problem on my hands. The next call was up to Krieghoff, and was told to bring er' up so that they could look at it. The gunsmith there told me he could attempt to pin the stock, which I wasn't really thrilled about since I had picked the gun out of 8 others and the wood was beautiful. So I agreeded, and they gave me a loner stock so that I could keep shooting. Two weeks later my stock came in the mail from Krieghoff crack and all. I attempted to put the iron back in the stock and that damn crack opened up (less then a 1/4 inch long, and a hair width wide). I called up to Krieghoff slightly more irritated this time, and told them I would keep the stock, but I wanted them to know that it was still cracked, and if it broke in two I would appreciate it if they would stand behind it. She agreed and hung up the phone, and I went outside to do work around the house. When I came back in there was a message to send my orginal stock back so that they could find a replacment. I did the next day, and two months passed before I heard anything. Then I recieved a call, and they sent pictures of the wood to me to approve (talk about customer service). I liked the wood and took the gun back up to ottsville for a second time to have it fitted. They replaced the forearm and stock no questions asked and no charge (which they should of). The motto of "you get what you pay for" is still true and I really love that damn gun. I used to shoot a BT-99, and my average was around a 93. The new Krieghoff is around a 98, and the reason for the increase is adjustability. The point of impact, comb, and trigger all adjust to make the gun fit. Honestly, I didn't believe that a $5000 gun was worth it, untill I shot it. Believe what you want, the gun doesn't make the shooter, the shooter makes the gun!

Mike

[Gord]

While I don't resent the fact that a good shotgun can be spendy to the tune of several thousand dollars, there's a line that most of these guys are way over, simply because they can be.

Why does a shotgun cost $20k? Human nature and no other reason whatsoever.

They charge what they can get away with.

[redneck2]

I wonder why some people get so torqued up about the way I spend my money...

as in MY money....

as in MY money

these are the same people that go to the casinos every week end, or spend $10,000 on stereo equipment, or drop $200 in a bar on Saturday night, or whiz away $40k on a car that they'll sell for 10k a few years from now

[JohnBT]

"Why does a shotgun cost $20k? Human nature and no other reason whatsoever."

Can you tell the difference between an original Rembrandt and one of those poker-playing-dogs painted on velvet? Is it human nature that one is worth more than the other?

How about between a Ferrari and a Cavalier?

Okay, where's that video about Holland and Holland shotguns. I'll find it and post it if it hasn't been posted already.

John

[dpote]

It's on post #42.

Dave

[JohnBT]

HA!!! I thought I'd seen it on shotgunworld, but had to resort to google to find it. Oh well, too late, it's got it's own thread now and it deserves it.

John

[Gord]

How about between a Ferrari and a Cavalier?

But I'm not paying $12 million for the Ferrari, am I?

A shotgun is mechanically simple to manufacture and build, therefore you are paying for aesthetics and hand-fitting - which is fine, my point simply being that you are paying a ridiculous amount for aesthetics and hand-fitting. The thing may be cobbled together entirely by a wizened seventh-generation gunsmith with a hand file and a cold chisel, but it's still not going to have $20k worth of hand labor invested in it.

There is a point where you stop paying for the product and start paying for the prestige. $20k shotguns seem to be fine examples of that.

[MCgunner]

Why is it whenever the question of high-dollar guns comes up, there is always people chiming in with the fact that they out shoot people using $80,000 FerazziBMW shotguns with their $20 crap-stick.

I drive BMWs. Owning the car doesn't make me a better driver, it makes me want to be a better driver. I take driver's schools and track days that most folks that just use a car as a box to take them from point A to B never would. So, yes, I probably am a better driver than the average Kia owner

It seems we all want to be Hollywood - style lower class heros. Showing up the rich folks with their down to earth skills and knowledge.

I have shot with rich guys and their Perazzis (with my $1400 Benelli auto) and they were some of the nicest shooters I have met. I did not feel like the odd man out.

Well, I made less than 35K last year. I don't drive no Beemer, don't ride no beemer, and I sure the heck don't own no 50K gun. I do have one of those 300 dollar Remington Spartans and it shoots just fine for me.

I love beautiful doubles, but some of us are not endowed with Exxon-Mobile executive incomes. I sure enjoy the pretty pictures, though, and drool on 'em in collections, but I can't afford such a gun. My home is modest, my car's a Toyota Echo, and I have been racing motorcycles for nearly 40 years because I couldn't afford performance cars back in the day and never could. My current street hot rod is a Suzuki SV650S, bone stock except for suspension, fast enough in a 70 mph world. But, my lap times are pretty good at the track. I've raced superbikes and 250GP stuff as an AMA pro, 25 years ago. Now days I'm just an old has been, but still dabble in mini racing, all I can afford anymore, and the main reason I still do it is that all my friends do. Can't afford a new GSXR1000 superbike prepped every season and can't afford the medical bills if I goof up. Been there, done that.

So, if you think you're better'n me with your Purdy and you're Beemer, hey, great. No sweat off me. Knock yourself out with your self importance and ostentatiousness. Not directed at the poster, particularly, but any guy who thinks a Mossberg is junk, etc, etc, for the lower class, whatever. If I did own a 50K shotgun, it'd never get fired. Hell, for the last 15 years I've refused to take my Winchester 1400 Ranger into the salt marsh to hunt ducks, didn't wanna mess up the pretty finish and nice machine cut checkering on the walnut stained Birchwood stock. ROFLMAO! sm convinced me to wax it up with paste wax and USE IT FOR WHAT IT WAS INTENDED, not just dove hunting in clean environments, so I have begun to do that. I like its light recoil considering my Mossberg 500 alternative.

I'm sure glad they do build affordable shotguns, even double guns, 'cause I wouldn't own one if all that was available were 50K shotguns for the elite, rich, and famous. I'd still be using my old Iver Johnson 16 gauge single shot my Uncle gave me in my youth, I guess. It'd still kill ducks, though, if I could find steel shot in 16 gauge. It's at LEAST 60 years old now, were discontinued in 1947. I sincerely doubt it was hand fitted with any care, anyway, and I can't hope to guess how many rounds have been put through it. It ain't worn out yet, tight as my brand new Remington Spartan.

Yeah, I love to look at a beautiful double, especially an English side-by-side. I think they're beautiful works of art and awesome to admire. But, I don't hunt with such guns and wouldn't if I owned one. One spec of rust and I'd be loony tunes!:banghead: The difference here might be that I ain't impressing people at the skeet range, I HUNT with my shotguns, not into skeet/trap. Ain't no body, but me and the ducks out in the marsh to impress and my old Mossberg has made some impressions, let me tell ya.

[billp]

A nice sxs or o/v with lots of shells to practice with may be a better idea than a really expensive shotgun?

Old [45 days younger than saddam] bird hunter (http://www.prosefights.org/kansas2006/kansas2006.htm) opinion.

[The Deer Hunter]

my $400 870 WM still works just as good as these $5000 ones.

[billp]

First day I was out on the snake river breaks with my new shotgun I returned to the bank of the snake. Totally tired.

I stood on a large rock.

It rolled. And I put a huge gouge in the stock.

Welcome to the real world.

[The Deer Hunter]

Another good thing about my 870, its easy to find wood :neener:

[scrat]

an 870 is easy to find wood for. but its still a manufactured gun. guns like holland and holland where they are tailored to you. thats a big difference. kinda like a moss 500 defender. i was at the range over the weekend. this guy with a moss 500 was shooting just on the plinker area kinda funny. as i took out my NEF single shot 12 guage. long barrel fired a couple of rounds waiting to trap shoot. any how he made a dumb comment. qute toy. i looked at him and said ya i guess that 500 is kinda qute. i hope that plastic stock didnt set you back too much. he laughed then said you cant shoot with that. i said i can shoot more and better with this than you with yours. he said right. i then tried to explain the difference but just said lets go shoot some clay. i went up and first 3 clays up shot down. I then stopped and let him give it a shot. he launched up 4 clays missed all of them.
So ya the 870 may be cheap on wood my NEF may only fire one round at a time so does the holland and holland. but when your hunting in the fields or sport shooting in competition. its all about one shot at a time.

[skeeter1]

Here's a Winchester Model 21 Grand American for sale:

http://daverifflegunsales.com.phtemp.com/21.htm

Asking price -- $130,500. If you're filthy rich and can afford it, this is the one to have. To think that 40 years ago, I could have bought one for $6K (as if I had $6K back then. That's all I made in a year.) Oh well... :(

[JohnBT]

"my point simply being that you are paying a ridiculous amount for aesthetics and hand-fitting."

Ridiculous to you maybe. To each their own. It's all a matter of priorities. It's not like it would be my only gun.

I was perfectly happy driving my 5.5-year-old Forester-S until my father decided it was time to move an assisted living facility and gave me his '06 Avalon with 4500 miles on it after I'd taken 5 weeks off from work to take care of them (mom has Alzhiemers.) I'd forgotten what a nice driving car Toyota builds, especially one with a 360-watt JBL 12-speaker stereo and XM radio. Dern thing has a limiter on it - it'll only go 138 mph, I hear.

It's only money and you can't take it with you.

Should I keep the low-mileage Forester, sell the Avalon and buy a $30,000+ shotgun? You think I'm kidding, right?

John

[MCgunner]

http://daverifflegunsales.com/gom.jpg

Beautiful, just what a guy needs out in the salt marsh...:D

It is pretty, but 130K? God, that'd buy me a nice 100 acres of land around here! Well, 75 anyway, depending on location of course.

It's only money and you can't take it with you.

Hey, John, yeah, but I'd like to be able to eat while I'm still here. ROFLMAO Priorities? Well, survival and financial security have always seemed to top my list of priorities, but that's just me. I've managed to make it, but without a lot of discretionary income. A gun like this Winchester ain't a hunting weapon anyway, it's an investment in steel and wood, like Microsoft stocks, but a whole lot prettier. If I had THAT much money to invest (don't, only about a little over double that and it's all in mutual funds) I'd make such an investment. If I'd been a wealthy investor when that M21 was made, look at how much I would have returned on my investment! And, all those years, I'd have gotten to look at that beautiful work of art.

These are the reasons guys like me envy the upper classes. Unfortunately, I ain't in that level, but sure would be nice.

Should I keep the low-mileage Forester, sell the Avalon and buy a $30,000+ shotgun? You think I'm kidding, right?

John

John, you need to tune in to Dave Ramsey's radio show, maybe call in and ask him about it. ROFL. Well, so long as you ain't borrowing for it, he might approve, actually, especially if it has the possibility of appreciating at the rate this M21 did!:what: I listen to that show when I'm working in the shop. He has my cheap arsed attitude on life. Well, if anything, he's cheaper. LOL But, guess what, he could afford this Winchester if he wanted, pocket change. :D Self made rich didn't get that way by spending frivolously, I reckon.

[JohnBT]

"John, you need to tune in to Dave Ramsey's radio show, maybe call in and ask him about it. ROFL."

I could have written the stuff he sells. I SHOULD HAVE. :)

Dave Ramsey - "I formed our company in 1988 to counsel folks hurting from the results of financial stress."

HA!! I haven't had a car payment since 1987 and no house payment since 1999 (like that $345 a month was killing me.) And I'm the big spender in the family who likes to fly to the islands and hit the casinos a few times a year. I have a cousin worth a million who won't even buy a lottery ticket because she thinks too much of the dollar it would cost.

A $30k shotgun is going to be worth more in 5 years than a $30k car. Don't even think about keeping the car 10 or 15 years.

Maybe I'll keep the Avalon and spend the cash I've saved for a new Forester on a gun or two. Dang, I keep forgetting the old car is still worth about $10k or so. What to do, what to do?

Old habits are hard to break, like being thrifty and living like a starving student.

John...always collect interest, never pay it.


P.S. - If anyone had told me in 1966 that I'd ever have some discretionary income I would have laughed at them. I was working at McDonalds for $1.15/hr. hauling 100# bags of Idahos up out of the basement and making fries. Then I got into tree service work and that paid $2.35 plus overtime.

[seatofmypants]

my $400 870 WM still works just as good as these $5000 ones. (haven't figured out how to quote yet)


I own an 870, and no they arn't as nice. Not talking down, just telling the truth. In fact the Krieghoff kx-5 is about $5,000 nicer!

[MCgunner]

John, you and I think a lot alike.:D I have never shook the "poor student" attitude in all the years. Of course, I had to work my way through school, parents being working poor. My biological father contributed $100 a month, but I had to make the rest, held as many as three jobs at a time, but I got out of there with no debt. :D OTOH, Ramsey always shuns home mortgages, talks about paying cash for a house, living in a dump with in the projects 'til you can afford it. Heck, I'd rather pay a mortgage than rent! Rent is WASted money! Anyway, yeah, I have no debt, paid off the house early in 97 and it was $300 a month, sounds familiar. LOL!

But, my gun investments have always been in milsurp junk, like investing in an 80 dollar milsurp hoping it'd double in 20 years in value. ROFL! I can surely see a fine double side by side being a worthy investment if you have that much to invest. JUST DON'T TAKE IT HUNTING. LOL! It's no different, as I see it, in investing in artwork by Picasso or someone. I much prefer gun art to paintings, personally.

[Guntalk]

There really is a difference.

If you have not picked up, swung, and (if you are lucky) shot a fine double (side-by-side) shotgun, it's impossible for someone to describe the difference.

The first time I picked up a Lebeau-Courally 16-gauge sidelock, the thought that hit me what that after 35 years of active shooting, and having access to pretty much any of the new American guns for the last two decades, I had no idea a shotgun could feel like that.

Is it important? It is worth the money? I don't know. That's an individual call.

But there are fine shotguns available for under $5,000. That's not expensive in that world, where many new guns start at Lexus prices.

Even if you have no plan or possibility of buying one, everyone should treat himself or herself to at least getting exposed to these fine guns. Find a shop which has some, and just handle them, mount them and swing them.

Sure, they are pretty, but it's the FEEL that is the difference.

Less so for the over/unders, in my opinion.

[MCgunner]

But, unless the gun is hand fitted to the individual, wouldn't it still have to have generic measurements? How could it swing any better than my old Spanish built side by side I got for a hundred bucks on a going out of business sale in 1971? Just asking. I mean, I can understand the custom fitted thing, sure. I'll bet a gun built to your measurements exactly is pure pleasure in the hands. Maybe it's the balance that makes the higher dollar gun better? Heck, I don't know. I'm a shooter, not a gun builder. If I ever have a chance to handle such a gun, I'll give 'er a swing, ain't gotta twist my arm on that one! :D

BTW, I noticed on your site your show is on Corpus 1360 Sunday afternoon. I'll have to give it a check. :D If you came weekday afternoons, you could take Dave Ramsey's place on the shop radio, LOL.

[JohnBT]

www.shotgunreport.com/Reload/ReloadApr02.html

Look about 2/3rds of the way down at 'THE TECHNOID PERFORMS A BALANCING ACT...'

"You can hang a brick on each end of a broomstick and make it seesaw where you will, but you could not call it properly balanced. Good gun balance is dynamic, not static."

"Look at the broomstick and brick example. If a brick were tied onto
each end of the broomstick, it would balance right in the middle, but
would be very hard to swing about due to having the weight at the
ends. This demonstrates high moment of inertia. That same
broomstick, with the bricks moved close together in the center, would
weigh exactly the same and balance in the same place. However, due
to the center weighting, the stick would have a very low moment of
inertia and would swing about with abandon.

Traditionally, the British game gun places the balance point and most
of the weight between the hands. This gives the gun a low moment of
inertia resulting in good speed and maneuverability, especially
suited for field shooting. Americans have usually opted for a
somewhat more muzzle heavy bias. This increases steadiness and is
generally thought better for clay targets, which do not change
direction suddenly."

"In 2001 Don Amos (an engineer specializing in tire rotation) wrote a
marvelous article in Shooting Sportsman Magazine on the accurate
measurement of moment of inertia.

He built a machine combining a turntable, bob weight and stop watch.
It actually measures feel. With the gun on the turntable at rest, the
bob weight provides the constant force to rotate the table and gun.
The stopwatch times the first rotation. This time can be compared.

A gun with weight at its ends takes longer to make the first rotation
than a center weighted gun of equal weight even though both have the
same balance point."

[MCgunner]

Compared to my American repeaters, my Sarasqueta (affordable side by side) is balanced between the hands. My new Remington Spartan with its coach gun length 20" barrels is practically balanced in the butt stock. LOL I'm a little worried about how whippy this gun is going to be, but it's just a matter of getting used to it, I reckon. A gun doesn't have to be $5000 to balance "between the hands", though.

I've always heard that a good bit of the expense of a side by side is properly regulating the barrels. I can understand this, but I've killed a lot of birds with that old Sarasqueta, can recall some fifty yard shots on high flying ducks, and in this day of laser alignment tools, I'd think that wasn't as big a chore anymore as it once was, but I could be wrong.

Anyway, compared to a pump or auto, it don't take much to get a double to balance less muzzle heavy. There's no receiver/action to lengthen the gun or tube magazine or gas piston apparatus or any of that, thus the balance is going to be more rearward by nature. It can be moved forward with thicker, heavier barrels. I picked up a 10 gauge double a goose guide was using, once. Christ, that thing was 12 lbs if it was an ounce!:what: The barrels were really thick on that thing. Of course, if it weighed what my Sarasqueta weighs (under 7 lbs) or my Remington SPR 20 gauge, it'd be unfireable. Well, I guess you could fire one shot out of it without resetting your shoulder. :what: :D

Waterfowl guns work better with a forward weight balance, anyway. Doves and quail off the flush, yep, a double can follow the bird and point quicker. That's another reason I wanted that SPR or at least something that could change direction quicker than my autochucker. But, hey, it wasn't anywhere near 5K.

Maybe I'm trying to be too logical about understanding this? :D For 5K, I would EXPECT a gun to swing better, I'm just not understanding where the 5K goes in this equation for FUNCTION. I can obviously understand the ornate engraving, the hand cut BEAUTIFULLY grained walnut, etc. I can see paying for the art, the cosmetics. I just don't see why you get more function in a generic fitted shotgun (as opposed to custom fit which I can understand).

Regardless, I will still view a 5K gun as an investment, not a field gun. Might just be me, a cheap person on a budget. I guess if I'd won that 370 million megamillions lotto last night, I might adopt another opinion, but I only matched ONE number...:banghead: :(

[Guntalk]

Pretty much what I said. If you haven't picked up one, I can't explain it.

Once you do, I won't have to.

[MCgunner]

Pretty much what I said. If you haven't picked up one, I can't explain it.

Once you do, I won't have to.

Let me guess, you own a Harley? ROFL! I've ridden Harleys and still don't get the infatuation. I will make a point of asking to handle such a gun if I get a chance.

[seatofmypants]

Don't just handle it, shoot it, this is where you will notice a difference!

[MCgunner]

If I find one, it'll likely be in a shop or a gun show. There's no skeet and trap clubs around here that aren't part of DuPont's employees perks and all the members of my gun club here, except for one, aren't rich and the rich guy is into benchrest rifles, don't know if he even owns a shotgun. So, my chances of getting to SHOOT such a gun are slim unless I buy one, and THAT ain't gonna happen.:(

[45auto]

I don't have a "feel" for SXS's, but I have several friends that do and it's a "calling" for quality SXS's to hunt with. I believe it's a big part of the enjoyment of hunting for them. The "fit and finish", regardless of the balance, is night and day from inexpensive, production shotguns. That's why there are "enthusiast" type "fan clubs" for guns, cars, etc, etc...the "uncommon" and "spectacular".

They take very good care of them and they won't lose their money if they sell them later on...probably. If they sell, they buy another though!

Now, if you are going hunting in the "marsh", the autos come out regardless if you have $50,000 worth of shotguns in the safe. ;)

[Guntalk]

You can get a very nice SxS for $3,000.

Consider . . . A top-line autoloader will run $700 to $1100.

A good O/U will run $1,000+.

The SxS will serve you for 70 years.

Each time you pick it up, you will be glad you spent the money. Each time you pull it from the case, your friends will notice. Each time you carry it afield, you'll get extra enjoyment from it.

Worth the money? Only the person spending the money can say.

It was about 15 years ago when I got to shoot one of these guns, and it was a total revelation.

Took me a while, but I finally bought a Spanish SxS. Love it. Then I found a WWII era J.P. Sauer at the Cabelas store in Mitchell, SD. Great little 12-gauge, but it turns out we can't bend the stock for my left-handed shooting, so it's going to have to go.

Now, I'm cruising the web for a 28-gauge.

www.fieldsportltd.com

www.champlinarms.com

I can't screw up the courage to buy one, but I do like looking.

No, I would not take one into a salt marsh. The pump will work just fine for that. I took an O/U into Matagorda Bay last fall and picked up some rust. Should have taken the old beater.

[MCgunner]

LOL, Matagorda Bay, or the Lavaca Bay extension of it, is just across the street from me.:D Do a LOT of duck hunting down here from Lavaca bay to the island to Guadalupe Delta. Neat thing about my Mossberg is the camo finish. You can't tell the rust patches from the camo from 3 feet away. LOL! It's in decent shape, though, considering the near 20 years of abuse. Buddy of mine has an air boat he's rebuilding (have the carb in the shop, dual float four barrel Holly, motor is a 505 Chevy gas guzzler:D ) and as soon as it's done, we're going to build a couple of blinds in the bay. I've got close to six dozen deeks, half of which are weighted keel, so we're gonna have a fine old time next season. When we hunt the bay, I'll definitely be Mossberg armed out of regard for the finish on my Winchester. I don't worry so much about it down at the delta where there's at least no boat ride and the water ain't quite as salty and real sweet when there's been a lot of rain, though it is on the upper end of Heinz Bay.

My uncle had a JP Sauer drilling he picked up somehow during WW2, brought home as a war prize. It was really cool, but not a fowling piece in the grand tradition, of course, what with the rifle barrel and the heft of the thing. Fine weapon, though. It was 16 gauge over 8x57JR (rimmed case and slightly smaller diameter, think .318" vs .323", than the 8x57S. My cousin has it and he has no clue how to feed it, doesn't handload, but I can't talk him out of it. :banghead: He ain't much of a shooter, anyway. I doubt he's ever fired it, but I have. I've fired both the shotgun barrels and the rifle. Cool gun. :D

[Guntalk]

MCgunner, we were hunting with Chris Martin at Bay Flats Lodge.

Really enjoyed the variety of the ducks there. Fished in the afternoons.

Six or seven species of ducks, plus reds, specs, and wading with the dolphins!

[MCgunner]

I know where the place is. :D Hunt all around there and fish, too. I love this area, been here 24 years now, raised not far up the coast near Freeport, but all my mom's family is from El Maton and Port O'Conner, so, you could say I grew up hunting here, too. :D If you want the BESTEST of the BEST duck hunting in the entire US, go to Laguna to the "land cut". HUGE populations of big bull sprig and nice variety of ducks. It's quite remote. Me and my buddy run down there and over night on the island (all state land) and hunt the potholes. There is a spring fed hole there, drinkable water, cat tails, etc. The ducks just WANT to be there. We don't even bother with decoys hunting down there. I have NEVER EVER in my life had such fantastic duck hunting as that. We're planning at least a couple of trips down there next season. It is nice to get a couple of boats going. If you have trouble down there, you're all alone. It's quite remote, no roads, only accessible by boat. the area is just south of Baffin Bay. I tell people about this place and they think I'm lying, but it has to be experienced to be believed. I take the call just to get 'em to zero in on a feeding chuckle with their wings cupped. :D Don't have to worry about hailin' 'em.

Not too many people on this board can relate to the kind of rust I put up with down here, LOL! My old Spanish Sarasqueta used to be a nice lookin' gun for a low priced double, hand cut checkering, nice wood, deep bluing, some engraving even with gold plate triggers and color case hardened receiver. But, 15 years in the marshes and riding in boats, well, the gun still shoots well and looks almost decent considering the abuse, but the ol' grey mare ain't what she used to be. That's when I got into Mossbergs.:D But, for anything, but marsh/bay hunting, I really prefer a double or my autochucker.

[Guntalk]

>>Not too many people on this board can relate to the kind of rust I put up with down here<<

I know what you mean. I told someone that you can HEAR the gun rusting!

[Guntalk]

Just thinking about this idea of a $5,000 gun.

Buy a $5,000 car, and what do you get? What's it worth in 5 years? 10 years? Fuggitaboutit.

Buy a $5,000 gun, and in five or 10 years, if you take care of it, it's worth at least as much as you paid for it. Maybe more.

For five grand, you get a junker car that won't last many years. For $5,000 you can get a really nice gun -- either a new one (Spanish?), or a historic gun from a great British maker. Either way, you have something you can be proud of, that you can always sell if needed, or that you can hand down to a family member.

Honestly, setting aside the not inconsiderable issue of purchase price, one could make a strong argument that a fine gun not only makes you happy, but it's a smart buy.

Or, you could have three or four EBRs. <grin>

[seatofmypants]

I dont know what it is (cheap steel I guess) but you can hear my BT-99 rusting if you look at it wrong!

[Pessimist]

My two favorite trap guns are a Beretta Silver Pigeon combo with fully adjustable stock (bought used for $2500 - probably close to $5000 for an equivalent new one) and a Remington 1100 Classic Trap (bought new for $850). I can shoot either about as well. I much prefer the Beretta because: I don't have to clean it as often or thoroughly; it's easier to manipulate the shells and save the empties, especially shooting doubles; it doesn't have all that distracting mechanical noise and monkey motion going on; and it just FEELS better in my hands. When you're shooting 10,000-20,000 targets per year, those things matter. As for whether the Beretta is really worth so much more money: that's strictly a matter of subjective opinion.

I have never noticed any competitive trap shooters "looking down" on the cheaper guns. Too many of them have been beaten by people shooting cheaper guns.