Enfield no4 mark 2 at CAI


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Flyboy73
February 21, 2007, 04:32 PM
Got a email saying that Century has a small lot of enfiled No4 mark 2 in stock. I see on there web sites they are made in Pakistan. They want $170 for them.

Seems a little high for something from Pakistan. Or is the quality pretty good of these rifles?

Brion

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Trebor
February 21, 2007, 04:39 PM
The Enfield No 4 Mk 2 is different from the Pakistan built #2 and #2A. The #4 Mk 2 is a post war variant of the standard #4 Mk 1. The difference is the trigger is affixed to the receiver, not the trigger guard. The Pakistan #2 and #2A is a whole different thing. That's an Enfield built in .308.

Now, Pakistan may also have built #4 Mk 2's, but if they did, I'm not aware of it. Does Century say that these are specifically Pakistan rifles?

robvious
February 21, 2007, 05:08 PM
My understanding is that ALL No. 4 Mk 2 Enfields were made at the
Royal Ordnance Factory (ROF) Fazakerly (near Liverpool) England.

DMK
February 21, 2007, 05:36 PM
The Pakistan #2 and #2A is a whole different thing.Pakistan didn't make them either. Ishapore in India did.

It's very possible that No4 Mk2 Enfields were imported from Pakistan.

Flyboy73
February 21, 2007, 06:21 PM
from Century site.

"Product ID: RI1434 Condition: Good
Enfield No. 4 MK II Rifle, Cal. .303 British Details & Associated Product Family

World famous Enfield design produced in Pakistan. Comes with bayonet and scabbard. 10 rd. magazine. Curio & Relic. Barrel: 25.2, Overall: 44.5, Weight: 9.1 lbs "

http://www.centuryarms.biz/proddetail.asp?prod=RI1434%2DG

Brion

DougW
February 21, 2007, 10:26 PM
If it is a legit #4mk2, then is comes fro ROF Fazakerly in England. If it is a Paki copy, then it is not a #4mk2. There has not been any historic data published about India/Pakistan officially making the #4, only the #1's. DMK is correct.

It could be that since Century has a habbit of not really knowing what they are selling, that these are #4mk2's that were shipped to India/Pakistan from England years ago and have been sold on the surplus market, being bought up by Century. My Australian Lithgow 1942 #1mk3 has the Ishy screw from the Ishapore factory in India. It was not modified in any other way India, so it is still a Lithgow. I also have a #4mk1 Fazakerly that was Ishy screwed. Both came in to the US through Century.

The #4mk2 would be a good deal if they are not screwed. That tends to lower the collector value, including the bill board marking that has to be put on the weapons these days.

shooter503
February 21, 2007, 10:26 PM
Totally different animals. Indian No.2s are upgraded No.1s. The UK No.4 Mk2 is an updated No.4 Mk1.

The Indian rifle has the large curved loading clip bridge. The No.4 Mk2 has the smaller square loading clip bridge. No No.4 rifles were ever manufactured in India or Pakistan as far as I know. The problem was that the Ishapore factory only had tooling for the No.1 rifles at the beginning of WW2. Therefore they had to put that rifle into production even though it was out-of-date. It would have taken too long to retool for the No.4.

The quick way to tell No.4Mk1 from a No.4Mk2 is to look at the fore-end fixing pin that goes through the back of the fore-end about an inch or so above the trigger pivot. On the No.4 Mk1 this through pin is a rivet. On the No.4Mk2 the through pin is a screw. The difference is quite obvious.

Edit.
The photo on the Century site is correct for a No.4Mk2. It shows the old spike bayonet. I think the Mk2s were more likely issued with the blade version. On our graduation parade one of the cadets did the "right dress" to get the spacing and snapped his hand down onto his partners "blade" bayonet. The bayonet went right through his glove and through the web of his hand. To his credit he finished the parade with a glove full of blood. At the end of the parade we had to soak the glove to soften the congealed blood and cut it off.

By the way - a nice No4Mk2 joined the stable today. All matching numbers including mag and fore-end. Regimental marking 103 on the stock. Won't tell you how much - you would choke.

dstorm1911
February 21, 2007, 11:29 PM
There is alot of warnings in about every Enfield site on the web about Pakistani "Copies" of Enfield #4s they are and have been cloneing them for years, they are considered unsafe with questionable metal quality and most are not heat treated, Pakistan has a home brew gunpowder literally made from cellulose salvaged from old movie film that is very very low power equivalent to blackpowder that these guns are fired with etc...

There are tons of sites with tutorials on how to spot Pakistani copies just do a google search for Enfield no 4 etc...

Pakistani gun makers have cloned every Enfield ever released but they usually screw up on the stampings used etc... particularily on the no1mk3 clones...

copy/paste from

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee-Enfield


Khyber Pass Copies

A number of British Service Rifles, predominantly the Martini-Henry and Martini-Enfield, but also the various Lee-Enfield rifles- have been produced by small manufacturers in the Khyber Pass region of the Indian/Pakistani/Afghani border. "Khyber Pass Copies", as they are known, tend to be copied exactly from a "Master" rifle, which may itself be a Khyber Pass Copy, markings and all- which is why it's not uncommon to see Khyber Pass rifles with the "N" in "Enfield" reversed, amongst other things.

The quality on such rifles varies from "As good as a factory-produced example" to "Dangerously unsafe", tending towards the latter end of the scale. The ammunition used in the region is often underloaded, being made from a variety of powders -or even old film (which contains nitrocellulose, a key component of smokeless powder), and as such, Khyber Pass Copy rifles cannot generally stand up to the pressures generated by modern commercial ammunition.

It is generally advised that Khyber Pass made firearms NOT be fired under any circumstances.

Although there are a few collectors out there who have made extremely mild handloaded cartridges for their Khyber Pass rifles, this practice is not recommended, as there is nonetheless a high element of risk involved.

Khyber Pass Copies can be recognised by a number of factors, notably:

* Spelling errors in the markings; as noted the most common of which is a reversed "N" in "Enfield")
* V.R. (Victoria Regina) cyphers dated after 1901; Queen Victoria died in 1901, so any rifles made after 1901 should be stamped "E.R" (Edwardius Rex - King Edward VII or King Edward VIII) or "G.R" (Georgius Rex, - King George V or King George VI).
* Generally inferior workmanship, including weak/soft metal, poorly finished wood, and badly struck markings.

Trebor
February 22, 2007, 12:42 AM
Pakistan didn't make them either. Ishapore in India did.

Yeah, I knew that, but I still got it wrong. The original poster said, "Pakistan" so I didn't think it through.

Btw, I have a nice #4 Mk 2 still in the mummy wrap. I'm going to unwrap it and shoot it this spring. I'm looking forward to that.

Flyboy73
February 22, 2007, 01:16 AM
Thats what i am wondering, is it real mark 2 or a cheap paskistan copy.

Brion

robvious
February 22, 2007, 01:18 PM
as a side question for Trebor, shooter503, and anyone else
who collects and shoots "the old stuff".

I just picked up a numbers matching "Irish Contract" No. 4 Mk2 :D ,
any trick on how best to get the barrel and action Un-packed of cosmoline.
Spring fever has hit, I want to take it out to the range, but it is solid grease and I don't want to spend the whole weekend cleaning.

Just thought it might be useful information to share if you could.

Thanks in advance,

Rob (obviously)

shooter503
February 22, 2007, 01:24 PM
Flyboy
If you want to be safe take Century at their word and assume the rifles they are selling are made in Pakistan. Don't buy.

Unless you are familiar with the correct proof and other markings I don't really see how you would start to tell a real rifle from a copy. This is like distinguishing real antiques of any type from copies. Part of the answer is knowledge, part of it is "this just doesn't feel right".

There is no way you are going to be safe ordering by e-mail order unless you can examine and return if not satisfied.

One area I would look at is the rifle "type" markings on the left of the receiver. ROF Fazakerly had an odd way of marking (at least on the rifles I have seen). They used some sort of vibratory electric pencil, engraving by hand, that leaves markings almost as distinctive as a water mark on paper.

Hoppy590
February 22, 2007, 01:58 PM
robvious
just type cosmo removal into search and fine 100 differant ways, most will suggest taking down the rifle and using mineral spirits (paint thinner) to clean the cosmo off. others suggest gasoline (flamable!!!) some even make elaborate trash can ovens to get the job done

robvious
February 22, 2007, 05:36 PM
thanks hoppy590,

I will try to give a range report when I finally get there.

Flyboy73
March 6, 2007, 02:20 PM
Just an update on the NO 4 mark 2. I read in the Blue book of gun values that the Mark 2 was made at Wah Cantt pakistan on Ex-Fazakerley machinery.

Brion

Trebor
March 7, 2007, 02:56 AM
Robvious,

I didn't see your post until now, sorry.

I found the best way to remove cosmo is to make friends with someone who owns a parts washer. Talk to your mechanic.

mukluk
March 7, 2007, 10:58 AM
The BSA-Shirley plant sold thier No4 fabrication machinery to the Pakistani Ordnance Factory (POF) in the mid 1950's. Judging from observed serial numbers approximately 40,000 rifles were built there with a mixture of new manufactured and NOS or reclaimed parts from mainly British and Savage rifles. Manufacture dates of 1957-1960 have been observed. The POF No4 Mk2 is a quality rifle built to proper specs, do not confuse it with the Khyber Pass copies which come from Afghanistan.

david_the_greek
March 7, 2007, 01:52 PM
what you knowledgable gentlemen put the value of a cosmo wrapped no4 mark 2 at?. i've had one sitting in its wrapping in my basement for a while and have plenty of other toys to play with for now. just kinda wondering what they go for in unissued condition.

Flyboy73
March 7, 2007, 04:53 PM
I placed an order for one. However they are not in yet.

Brion

mukluk
March 7, 2007, 09:23 PM
The average going price for a still in arsenal wrap No4 Mk2 is in the $400-$600 range.

david_the_greek
March 7, 2007, 09:45 PM
wow thanks mr. mukluk. haha kinda funny because I still have to receipt for like $130 I think. Can't say I care for the bayonet though. not to practical outside of stabbing things with your rifle... haha I guess I should say its not multipurpose

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