AR bedroom gun


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Jacob Staff
February 22, 2007, 11:49 AM
I am interested in useing an AR15 carbine as my primary home defence gun. I will add a light and maybe an Eotech and/or night sights.

My main concern is I have young children in the home. I could lock the AR in the safe during the day and take it out at night and lock the bedroom door but this is not a good solution for me.

I want to keep it locked up and have it somewhat readily available. I'm thinking a rack above the door that has a quick release locking system. Anybody know of such a thing?

Any ideas would be welcome.

Jake

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scurtis_34471
February 22, 2007, 12:31 PM
I plan to use my new AK that way too. I'm going to get a quick access handgun safe for the bedroom that will contain my primary pistol and a loaded mag for the AK. The rest of my guns and ammo will be locked up in a gun safe. That means I can safely leave the AK out, because there will be no means for anyone to load it without getting into on of the safes. Seems like a good idea anyway. I still have to implement on it.

BrainOnSigs
February 22, 2007, 01:37 PM
You are going to be shooting at BGs with an AR in a house with children in other rooms?

You plan on using frangible ammo?

SnakeEater
February 22, 2007, 01:54 PM
You are going to be shooting at BGs with an AR in a house with children in other rooms?
I'd hazard to say that most people don't load their home defense handgun with frangible ammo. You're aware that 9mm, .40, .45 etc. have greater penetration through walls than 5.56 aren't you?

Jacob Staff
February 22, 2007, 01:54 PM
I am still researching the idea.

I keep hearing that the AR is starting to replace the shotgun for home defense and that it will penetrate less than 9mm or .45 ACP with the right ammo (still looking for a credible source of this). A shotgun with bird shot may be better option.

The idea of a carbine is attractive because I have kids in the house. I will have greater percision than a pistol or shotgun.

Currently I have a electronic lock mini-safe by the bed for a pistol. A carbine may turn out not the be a good option. I would still like to find a way to lock up a rifle or shotgun and still have it relatively easy to access.

Jake

K-Romulus
February 22, 2007, 01:58 PM
The quick-access thing is tough. GunVault sells an electronic push-button bracket that you can use to lock up a "long gun," but may not fit AR's. See this THR thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?goto=lastpost&t=172730). You may need to go the route of scurtis_34471.

As for ammo testing, here is a good link to one guy's experiments. Very popular at AR15.com: http://www.theboxotruth.com/

scurtis_34471
February 22, 2007, 01:59 PM
I have seen quick access safes that mount in a standard wall designed to hold a single shotgun or rifle.

mattw
February 22, 2007, 02:02 PM
A shotgun with bird shot may be better option.


I'm going to save you alot of posts and just say that you are wrong. Never consider birdshot a viable home defense round. At the very least I would suggest No. 4 buck shot. If you are serious move up to 00 Buck.

JShirley
February 22, 2007, 02:07 PM
I keep hearing that the AR is starting to replace the shotgun for home defense and that it will penetrate less than 9mm or .45 ACP with the right ammo (still looking for a credible source of this). A shotgun with bird shot may be better option.

I tested several 9mm and .40 loads, as well as 50-grain Federal American Eagle .223 in water. The .223 penetrated less.

Any of the .223 lightweight varmint rounds should have low penetration in tissue, but don't take my word for it: go buy a few jugs of water, and test this yourself. You can satisfy yourself that this is the case for less than $10 in test media. (Penetration in water will be about 60% deeper than in ballistic gel.) Penetration should be at least into the second water jug to be deep enough to stop an advancing human threat- if not, look into another brand, and save the shallow-pen stuff for genuine varmints or punching paper.

Oh- birdshot is a bad idea.

John

billhilly66
February 22, 2007, 02:15 PM
Have ya'll checked out the www.theboxotruth.com?

Neat stuff on penetration.

michael_aos
February 22, 2007, 02:24 PM
Rifle Case (http://www.vlineind.com/html/long_gun_case.html)

http://www.vlineind.com/assets/images/rifle2.jpg

romma
February 22, 2007, 02:38 PM
45 grain JHP for less penetration and effective wound channeling! :)

Plink
February 22, 2007, 02:53 PM
Birdshot at typical home defense range is devastating. Ever see those old county road signs that some yahoo shot with a shotgun? It's invariably peppered with birdshot but not really damaged, then the yahoo decided to shoot closer and the birdshot puts a fist sized hole through the sign. Up close, birdshot acts a lot like a slug. Try shooting it at water soaked phone books or what have you, at the typical distances you'd encounter in a home. It's not good much farther than that, but up close, it's more than enough.

Personally, I tend to use low pressure rounds for anything indoor related. If you want a rifle, I'd suggest a carbine in .45 ACP. Same with a handgun. If you've ever touched off a high pressure round in an enclosed area, you understand why I make the recommendation.

Jacob Staff
February 22, 2007, 02:56 PM
Looks like Hornady T.A.P. comes in 55, 60 and 75 gr. for .223

http://www.hornady.com/story.php?s=149

Is the 55 gr. light enough?

No birdshot-check


So what do ya'll think about frangible ammo? In .223 just use a light bullet instead?

What about for pistols? Frangible or hollow point?

I need to find the balance between stopping a zombie and not going through a wall. Has frangible ammo gotten to that point?

BrainOnSigs
February 22, 2007, 03:56 PM
You're aware that 9mm, .40, .45 etc. have greater penetration through walls than 5.56 aren't you?


Not from what I can tell. I have seen them all blow from one end of a house to the other thru mulitple walls....only stopping at the cinder block. I have shot .223 thru several layers of pine and it zips right thru it. I know that 00 buck will not go as quite as far as the 9mm, 40, 45 and 223/5.56.

michael_aos
February 22, 2007, 04:01 PM
I'm no expert, but I do do have an AR-15 in the bedroom.

Based on my understanding, energy figures for a projectile are based on weight and velocity.

In the case of .223, a large portion of its energy comes from the velocity component.

When a .223 hits something, it dumps its energy into the object and slows down a lot. If it goes through the object, it's now moving a lot slower -- and has a lot less energy. Presumably that means it wouldn't do as much damage to the next thing it hits.

That's my $.02.

Mike

scurtis_34471
February 22, 2007, 04:02 PM
I am personally considering a box of Glazers in 7.62x39 for home defense. Zero chance of wall penetration combined with good stopping power. Other than cost, I see no downside.

boerseun
February 22, 2007, 04:06 PM
Personally, I would just stick with a good shotgun and buckshot - but I have also heard that the .223 round has less penetration through drywall than pistol rounds - I reserve my personal opinion on this, however. I've seen .223 go through clay bricks with no issue - maybe the softer medium messes up the ballistics faster?

If you do go with the AR, I would agree with the above posters. Keep the magazine in a quick access handgun safe and the carbine next to the bed.
My personal setup may not be the best, but I have a "biometric" safe. It scans my boogerhook print and then opens up - no fumbling with codes. It is strong enough to keep the kids away from the handguns during the night. If I leave the house for longer than a day, all weapons go in the big safe.

Thin Black Line
February 22, 2007, 04:42 PM
My main concern is I have young children in the home. I could lock the AR in the safe during the day and take it out at night and lock the bedroom door but this is not a good solution for me.


Statisically speaking securing the weapon from your kids will be of greater
concern than penetration of your walls and accidentally hitting them.

I would recommend a handgun in one of those finger-button under the bed
safes.

michael_aos
February 22, 2007, 04:58 PM
Statisically speaking securing the weapon from your kids will be of greater
concern than penetration of your walls and accidentally hitting them.

I would recommend a handgun in one of those finger-button under the bed
safes.


I've always been of the opinion long-guns are "safer" with kids because it's harder to accidentally shoot yourself.

Mike

Jacob Staff
February 22, 2007, 05:04 PM
It looks like frangible .223, 55gr soft point .223 and 00 buck shot both went through 4 walls.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm

Bartholomew Roberts
February 22, 2007, 06:03 PM
If there is one rule of penetration you should remember, it is that you do not want to defend yourself from a potential threat of death or serious injury with something that won't penetrate two sheets of drywall.

Remember, you can always use Airsoft if overpenetration is your only concern. Unfortunately, in order to reliably incapacitate someone physiologically, you must penetrate deeply enough to strike the central nervous system or large blood bearing organs. If you are squared off face-to-face with someone, then maybe 4-6" of penetration is sufficient for that.

However, have someone turn sideways and what do you have in the way now? Arms. Have someone point a firearm back at you? Arms, wood, metal blocking most of the head and upper chest. What happens when a light shot load (like birdshot or Glasers) hits an arm on its way to the chest cavity. Well, the shot breaks up into tiny pieces that quickly lose momentum and most cannot overcome the elasticity of the skin on the other side. Only a few pieces of shot penetrate into the torso and they don't penetrate anywhere near enough to be useful. The arm wound will be nasty; but if they stop afterwards it will be because they wanted to, not because they had to.

The best way to handle penetration concerns is not to miss the intended target. Know your background within your house and plan around it now. If you are going to use reduced-penetration loads, keep in mind their limitations and have a backup plan.

arthurcw
February 22, 2007, 06:17 PM
as to storage...

American Rifleman had a small write up in this month's issue about the Vline Closet Vault.

http://www.vlineind.com/html/closet_vault.html

Very similar to the one already listed in this thread. It goes in between studs for a more flush fit.

ctdonath
February 22, 2007, 09:58 PM
Anyone else have that "closet valut"? Looks pretty good. Biggest concern is installation.

ctdonath
February 22, 2007, 10:03 PM
I thought long about a HD gun. Finally settled on a Colt 6933, sporting an 11.5" barrel capped with an AAC Omni silencer and fed hot 77gr ammo: overall compact enough for indoor maneuvering, quiet enough to shoot indoors without severe hearing problems, still gutsy enough for reliable terminal effects, and relatively minimized wall penetration.

http://www.donath.org/M4LE_Omni.JPG

Now need that closet safe to stick it in.

possum
February 22, 2007, 10:22 PM
I'm going to save you alot of posts and just say that you are wrong. Never consider birdshot a viable home defense round. At the very least I would suggest No. 4 buck shot. If you are serious move up to 00 Buck.
+1 great advice btw i have "00" in my 870!

js
February 23, 2007, 02:17 AM
I have a Rock River Arms AR15 and have thought about (in the past) making it a primary home defense choice... but, 12ga 00 Buckshot just seems to make more sense as for "more bang for the buck". With 00 Buckshot you're releasing 9 or so pellets at a time...compared to just one 5.56mm rd. Also I think you need to think about the size of the firearm and the amount time it's going to take you to get to or pull your weapon of choice in a defensive situation. This is where a handgun may be a better choice as well... oh, decisions, decisions... :)

But while you're thinking about it, let me go ahead a firmly plant the AR seed with a picture of mine... ;)

http://www.handgunforum.net/images/new_grip_1.jpg

Thin Black Line
February 23, 2007, 09:17 AM
I've always been of the opinion long-guns are "safer" with kids because it's harder to accidentally shoot yourself.


For small kids, yes. For older kids horseing around, not so good. This is
where lack of securing the weapon, lack of supervision, lack of education,
and just general dumbassery among 14 y-olds can come into play. I would
secure my car keys and the long-distance phone from them as well.

When small kids shoot themselves with handguns it has always been due to
the factors above and the fact that during their exploration of the moving
parts they only have the strength to pull the trigger with their thumbs. The
position the firearm will be in when this happens will be likely toward their
own body. Side note: another good reason not to keep a round chambered
in a mag-fed handgun since most kids (even some adults) can't rack the
slide.

When you're not in possession of it, secure it. There's no perfect substitute
for that.

shark3-1
February 23, 2007, 09:30 AM
I see shotguns as a very poor self defense choice. They are long guns with less than 10 rd. capacity, most being pumps, so you need to manually cycle the action. Any good shotguns should pattern buckshot like a slug in the distances found in your home. I find that a pistol would be a much better choice as it will provide you with more rounds and quicker follow up shots.

The best choice IMO is a short barreled rifle as it has a large magazine capacity less penetration than the pistol or shotgun slug rounds while being very accurate and providing much quicker follow up shots. If you have family members in the house, you need to KNOW that the shots you place are going to be accurate. Under stress hitting a target is far easier with a rifle than with a pistol. Also, when shooting a pistol with your arms stretched out, the short barreled rifle will extend about the same length from your body. Also, if you learn to short stock the weapon, it becomes more compact still. I keep mine on my bedside table when I go to sleep, and I keep it locked up during the day.
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/shark3-1/mrp003.jpg

I think that most people think that the shotgun is going to be a death ray that you just point in the general direction of the target and it will destroy everything in a 5 ft. cone of death. I don't know how that rumor got started. It will inflict a lot of damage when you do score a hit, but you better hit the target on the first shot because the follow up shot is going to take a little while due to the recoil and having to chamber another round.

I'm not saying that it doesn't have it's place as a CQB tool, it does: shooting doorhinges and doorknobs, but I don't think that you'll need to do that for home defense. I'm sure that some have a very different perspective, but that's my $.02.

JShirley
February 23, 2007, 09:44 AM
Training.

Properly held long guns won't extend appreciably further than properly held sidearms.

I don't believe shotguns are the ultimate! home defense tools, but they're better than sidearms. There's a reason they're called SIDEarms.

John

scurtis_34471
February 23, 2007, 09:55 AM
I still think locking up the rifle itself is less of a priority than locking up the mags and ammo. If all the mags and ammo are in a gun safe somewhere, the rifle is by the bed and a loaded mag is in a quick access pistol safe by the bed it seems like both safety and accessibility are covered.

Thin Black Line
February 23, 2007, 10:43 AM
Yes, scurtis, that would be an option as well. LOL, you just have to know
your teens. One day it's "Hey, guys, my dad is gone check this out." A
week later the entire family comes back from vacation and you notice something
missing....

Essex County
February 23, 2007, 01:17 PM
It seems to me overpenetration my be a problem with anything that might be effective. The other problem is securing the weapon. If you do too good a job how effictive will you be at 3 A.M., Groggy and disoriented? Sadly I don't see a clearcut solution....Essex

scurtis_34471
February 23, 2007, 02:31 PM
Yes, scurtis, that would be an option as well. LOL, you just have to know your teens. One day it's "Hey, guys, my dad is gone check this out." A week later the entire family comes back from vacation and you notice something missing....

I would definitely put the gun in the safe if I was going to be gone more than a few hours.

up_onus
February 23, 2007, 05:00 PM
That is one EXPENSIVE home defense gun.
Its just me and my humble opinion, but I would rather have a pistol or two, and maybe a shotgun or two rather than ONE AR...

michael_aos
February 23, 2007, 05:09 PM
EXPENSIVE

That's my biggest reservation about a house-gun AR.

You could probably find something like a Cavalry Arms Scout in the neighborhood of $700 though. Still a lot more expensive than a pump shotgun.

http://www.cavalryarms.com/scout.jpg

Eyesac
February 23, 2007, 05:27 PM
I like the idea of the AR for Home defense, but I just don't feel like it's handy enough. Opening doors and turning on lights is a little harder, doable, but harder than a pistol. my .02

davek
February 23, 2007, 06:56 PM
I've got two magazines of 75 grain Hornedy TAP for home defense, but to be honest, I suspect that if goblins ever did break into my house, I'd probably be too busy with other stuff to "fight my way" to the AR.

http://www.fototime.com/{2DB79BEF-EF29-4624-93EA-1726A7A99B33}/picture.JPG

Tallship
February 23, 2007, 07:25 PM
I think all you need to consider something here. You are not trained in urban combat, and even if you are, the after-effects of putting a few rounds of 223 ammo into a person inside your house are not something you want to contemplate. What you really want to do is get the guy out of your house as quickly as possible. And what you need to do that is an 18 1/2 inch pump shotgun. There is no other sound in the world like a pump gun being racked, and most of the bad guys know what it sounds like. And if by some remote chance the guy is high on drugs and doesn't immediately head for the next county, your chance of hitting him with the first shot is much greater than any other weapon.

davek
February 23, 2007, 07:30 PM
There is no other sound in the world like a pump gun being racked, and most of the bad guys know what it sounds like.

Meh. I hear that a lot, but I've never once heard anything anecdotal to back it up.

And if by some remote chance the guy is high on drugs and doesn't immediately head for the next county, your chance of hitting him with the first shot is much greater than any other weapon.

Certainly not great enough to make any real difference at the ranges inside my house.

Eyesac
February 23, 2007, 07:41 PM
I will never pic a defensive weapon because of the way it "sounds" when charging. That's pretty silly in my opinion, and nothing about a shotgun makes it easier to hit someone in HD ranges.

Tallship
February 23, 2007, 07:58 PM
An 18" barrelled shotgun has a spread of about 10" at 5 yards. That means you have a 20" range of hitting the person with at least one ball of 00 buck, which will do some pretty good damage. And you're buying the gun because it makes that sound, which alerts the intruder that you are armed. 99% of bad guys don't want anything to do with an armed homeowner.

davek
February 23, 2007, 08:18 PM
An 18" barrelled shotgun has a spread of about 10" at 5 yards.

Mine doesn't. :scrutiny:

That means you have a 20" range of hitting the person with at least one ball of 00 buck, which will do some pretty good damage.

And where did all those other balls ov 00 buck go?

And you're buying the gun because it makes that sound, which alerts the intruder that you are armed. 99% of bad guys don't want anything to do with an armed homeowner.

I can honestly say that when I bought my HD shotgun, "The sound it makes" didn't even cross my mind.

js
February 23, 2007, 08:29 PM
I can honestly say that when I bought my HD shotgun, "The sound it makes" didn't even cross my mind.

+1 :)

ctdonath
February 23, 2007, 08:53 PM
That is one EXPENSIVE home defense gun. Dang straight.
(OK, you probably weren't talking about mine, but it cost about the same.)

If I have to grab a gun "for real", that price tag will be cheap.
The infinite value of life, be that life my wife or my own or my dogs, aside...
My dogs cost me more than that.
My wife's immigration papers cost more than that.
Our home cost a couple hundred times more than that.
And so on...just for "invoice".

Of all my guns, that one and my G26 must go bang every time. They must handle as well as practically possible indoors. Terminal ballistics must be reliable. Ammo must not run out.
Less importantly, but still big, hearing and vision must be preserved, avoiding the "flash bang" effects.
Cool and collectible helps too.

Next time a gun malfunctions in your hands, think "what if this was 'for real'?"
I've had red-dots go dark, shells fail to extract, magazines fall apart, slides lock up, light taps, failed primers, etc. - don't fail me when it matters.

ctdonath
February 23, 2007, 09:00 PM
What you really want to do is get the guy out of your house as quickly as possible.I don't know why he's there.
I don't know what weapons he has.
I don't know if he'll flee or fight.

It takes time to "get the guy out of my house as quickly as possible."

If he's in my house unbidden, he has already overcome many fears, and has already replaces "stay out" with "go in".
He has already justified being there.

While the question of what exactly I will do remains until that moment, I absolutely want one option:
Stop him. Instantly.

I'm not relying - at all - on legends of fear-inducing sounds.
I'm relying on my unilateral ability to end the threat he poses.

CWL
February 23, 2007, 09:11 PM
I see shotguns as a very poor self defense choice. They are long guns with less than 10 rd. capacity, most being pumps, so you need to manually cycle the action. Any good shotguns should pattern buckshot like a slug in the distances found in your home. I find that a pistol would be a much better choice as it will provide you with more rounds and quicker follow up shots.

Let's see, my Beretta 1201fp holds 6+1-rounds of 9-pellet 00 buck = 63 projectiles. My Glock17 holds 17+1 rds of 9mm = 18 projectiles. 2 trigger pulls of shotgun = 18 trigger pulls of pistol. Am I doing the math wrong? :rolleyes: Lots of documentation of people surviving multiple COM handgun rounds at close range, I don't think there are any survivors of COM shotgun blasts...

An 18" barrelled shotgun has a spread of about 10" at 5 yards. That means you have a 20" range of hitting the person with at least one ball of 00 buck, which will do some pretty good damage. And you're buying the gun because it makes that sound, which alerts the intruder that you are armed.

The same Beretta 1201fp can shoot palm-sized patterns of Federal Reduced-recoil 00 buck out to 17-yards. I have trained to take head-shots against hostage targets because I want to understand the capabilities of me and my gun. At 5-yards, the spread would be smaller than your fist. Obviously you do not understand that the purpose of a SD shotgun is to dump the greatest amount of energy into your target via multiple projectile hits -it is not to send out a cloud of pellets in hope of hitting BG with one of them.

CWL
February 23, 2007, 09:29 PM
Oh, here's my 4-forgery home-defense rifle. Deployment will be 3rd place (after shotgun and M1911 .45ACP) Holoscope is co-witnessed to iron sites and white-light on forstock centers POA at 15 yards for quickfire drills.

Ammunition will be Lake City NATO because if anything survives 12ga. and .45ACP, I will have justification to seriously unload on it.

davek
February 23, 2007, 09:44 PM
Ammunition will be Lake City NATO because if anything survives 12ga. and .45ACP, I will have justification to seriously unload on it.

Anything survives 12 ga and .45, I'll be shooting whatever I got left over my shoulder while I'm running the opposite direction.

meef
February 23, 2007, 11:13 PM
Tallship:What you really want to do is get the guy out of your house as quickly as possible. And what you need to do that is an 18 1/2 inch pump shotgun. There is no other sound in the world like a pump gun being racked, and most of the bad guys know what it sounds like.You say this from personal experience, I take it?

Otherwise - why do you say it at all?

:cool:

meef
February 23, 2007, 11:15 PM
ctdonath:I'm not relying - at all - on legends of fear-inducing sounds.
I'm relying on my unilateral ability to end the threat he poses.Spot on.

js
February 23, 2007, 11:49 PM
Anything survives 12 ga and .45, I'll be shooting whatever I got left over my shoulder while I'm running the opposite direction.

I think I'd have to agree with that statement...

Bartholomew Roberts
February 24, 2007, 12:42 AM
I think all you need to consider something here. You are not trained in urban combat, and even if you are, the after-effects of putting a few rounds of 223 ammo into a person inside your house are not something you want to contemplate.

What after effects are you talking about and why do you think they are so severe that we wouldn't even want to contemplate them?

selector67
February 24, 2007, 01:07 AM
I prefer to use my Yugo AK underfolder for home defence, and my 45 as backup, I live alone and the houses around here are spaced pretty much apart where I dont have to worry about collateral damage. Nothing wrong with a 12 gauge or a 223 for home defence. I have 2 ARs., an A1 and an A2 model. If I was going to use a 223 for home defence I would prefer my mini-14 GB over the AR because of what I call the quick pull factor. I find it quicker, and easier to chamber a round in a mini-14 or an AK than an AR. You may find yourself in a situation where the intruder is already in your house, and every second counts. I find the charging handle on an AR to be a bit slower, but thats just my personal experience with the guns I own. Now if you keep a bullet in the chamber :eek: thats a different story. As far as the shotgun is concerned, I prefer not to use it since I have pet parrot in the house, and I dont think he would appreciate buckshot or birdshot going his way.:D

JShirley
February 24, 2007, 03:50 AM
You are not trained in urban combat, and even if you are, the after-effects of putting a few rounds of 223 ammo into a person inside your house are not something you want to contemplate.

Since a reasonable percentage of THR are either active service, veterans, or current or former law enforcement, your first assumption is not a very good one. Why would we not want to contemplate all aspects of self and home defense? We want fire extinguishers, insurance, at least one good firearm, lights, an exit plan...why the hell would we NOT contemplate what will happen after we choose not to be the victim of a violent attack?!

Sometimes you have to improvise, but you should always, ALWAYS, have a plan.

John

sacp81170a
February 24, 2007, 07:45 AM
Shark 3-1:

I see shotguns as a very poor self defense choice.

???? Why? Because they're inexpensive, effective and the manual of arms is so much simpler than an AR? Or is it because so many more people own them? You raise some valid points in favor of an AR or similar weapon, but do nothing to support your bold assertion that a shotgun is a very poor self defense choice. It may be a better or worse choice depending on circumstances.

Not everyone can afford a $1500 tricked out M4gery with a $400 optic and a $250 light, but I bet a lot of people can afford a $200 pump shotgun of whatever flavor.

As for me, I fit the weapon to the circumstance. An AR is a good choice for me, but for my wife it's a Mossberg 500 youth model in 20 ga. Works fine for her, much better than an AR she's uncomfortable with. YMMV. ;)

shark3-1
February 24, 2007, 10:22 AM
I don't think a shotgun is very effective because of the time spent to get back on target due to recoil and/or having to manually chamber a round. Either way it will take longer to get a second shot off with a shotgun than it would with a pistol or AR.

I am trained in CQB and have used those skills many times in combat. I know how to use my AR. I think that you should be proficient to use any weapon that you employ in your defense. I wouldn't hand my wife/girlfriend/kids a frickin water pistol if they didn't know how to use it, there are too many factors that could make that go incredibly wrong in a real world situation. The best weapon in any situation is one that you can actually employ effectively.

To the guy that said:
"An 18" barrelled shotgun has a spread of about 10" at 5 yards. That means you have a 20" range of hitting the person with at least one ball of 00 buck, which will do some pretty good damage. And you're buying the gun because it makes that sound, which alerts the intruder that you are armed. 99% of bad guys don't want anything to do with an armed homeowner."

You can't be serious, our issue 14.5" shotguns didn't group that large. Also, why in the hell would you keep an unloaded gun for self defense, so the perp can know where you are? Or is it because you want it to make that sound so that everyone in a 3 block area starts running?

People look, it is no easier to hit a person with a shotgun than it is with anything else. The damage that a high powered rifle does to a person at HD ranges is just as catastrophic as a shotgun, maybe more depending on several variables (trust me on this I've seen both). The idea isn't to scare the intruder, the goal is to end the threat. Sounds that a gun makes won't help.

There is no such thing as the "one shot stop" round. I've seen people survive 50 BMG hits and certaintly I've seen people survive shotgun rounds. The key to winning a gunfight is to be able to get the maximum amount of power downrange faster and more accurately than the bad guy. Anything worth shooting once is worth shooting until it quits moving. The AR excells at this, the shotgun does not.

If you don't believe me, take your "hammer of thor" (shotgun) and an AR to the range with a timer. Mark off the distance of the farthest shot you will take in your home. See how many rounds you can get on paper in 5 sec. with both weapons. Then you'll understand.

357wheelgunner
February 24, 2007, 11:05 AM
The only AR I'd ever consider using in the house would be an SBR 9mm. Actually that's a good idea, I think I'll look into it. I could hook it up with all the tacticool crap I've been itching to try, but still be able to shoot it at the local indoor pistol range.

My wallet hates you guys for making me think such things......

357wheelgunner
February 24, 2007, 11:52 AM
"There is no such thing as the "one shot stop" round. I've seen people survive 50 BMG hits and certaintly I've seen people survive shotgun rounds. The key to winning a gunfight is to be able to get the maximum amount of power downrange faster and more accurately than the bad guy. Anything worth shooting once is worth shooting until it quits moving. The AR excells at this, the shotgun does not. "

The 5.56mm AR is a terrible house gun IMO, unless your family members sleep with ear plugs on. You'd have a whole deaf family, all because daddy lit up the badguy with 30 rounds in 5 seconds that, although they killed the badguy 15 times, ruined the family's hearing for life. There are better ideas

What you aren't considering with the shotgun is that each round of buckshot is the equivalant of 12 or so rounds of 9mm, and if you can put one round where it counts the fight should be over. Also, if you can fire your shotgun 3 times in the span it takes the AR to fire 30, the round count is the same.

I'll take my shotgun, or a short barreled pistol caliber carbine in the house thank you.

tallpaul
February 24, 2007, 12:02 PM
" Lots of documentation of people surviving multiple COM handgun rounds at close range, I don't think there are any survivors of COM shotgun blasts..."


Uh well yes there are a few. Actually a surprising number of LE officers over the years have been unpleasantly surprised when a 12 ga did not render the subject to immediate inactivilty. At least that is what I have always read growing up. No weapons system is 100 percent - period
personally I have both types in rotation. The sad fact that if you are involved in a shooting generally means that the gun used to defend yourself will be lost. At least for a while if not forever. I have a hard time using my uber toys verses good standard cheap guns for home defense, I will hate to loose any of thm but to loose a 1200.00 or more gun to LE is as much of a crime as the other. I really want a shorty ar with a suppressor for such use but...

Truthfully a good argument can be made for the carbine as well as the shotgun. Personal choice brothers- that is what it is all about.

That and the fact that if ya can't handle the carbine use a shotgun :neener:

HorseSoldier
February 24, 2007, 12:47 PM
I don't think a shotgun is very effective because of the time spent to get back on target due to recoil and/or having to manually chamber a round. Either way it will take longer to get a second shot off with a shotgun than it would with a pistol or AR.


True enough, but let's also be realistic about terminal ballistics -- putting a full spread of 00 Buckshot into someone, center of mass, at home defense ranges is about the same as putting nine rounds of 9mm into a chunk of his torso that can be covered by a human palm or two. A shotgun with buckshot is about the only weapon that (assuming you hit what you aim at) does not inherently demand controlled pairs to produce reliable stops, as a half-dozen or more .25-.36 caliber pellets into the chest is it's own controlled pair.

If you don't believe me, take your "hammer of thor" (shotgun) and an AR to the range with a timer. Mark off the distance of the farthest shot you will take in your home. See how many rounds you can get on paper in 5 sec. with both weapons. Then you'll understand.

If each round fired with a shotgun puts 8+ holes in the target, and each round fired with a rifle or pistol puts one hole in the target, I'm thinking the equation at the receiving end is, at best, balanced, even with the recoil of the shotgun in the hands of most folks, if it does not, in fact, favor the shotgun.

Now, don't get me wrong, like you, I've been trained to use the M4, and that would be the weapon (or a civilian M4gery) I'd be most comfortable with if I ever happened to find myself in a home defense situation. But, I think you're really selling the shotgun much shorter than its capabilities at very close, inside-a-building sort of settings actually warrant.

shark3-1
February 24, 2007, 12:59 PM
A pistol caliber long gun is better than a 5.56????????? In what way? 9mm typically has much more penetration than a 5.56, and the 9mm isn't comparible at all to the damage 5.56 will do. Pistol rounds of any caliber cause what is called crushing wounds, basically meaning that the temporary cavity made by the round (FMJ or expanding) is almost non existant. The primary wounding mechanism is the permanent cavity that is caused by the tissue that the round displaces when it travels through flesh. With high powered rifle rounds, there is a substantial temporary cavity that is the primary wounding mechanism due to the fragmentation of the round. What occurs is the tissue surrounding the fragmenting bullet is torn, ripped, stretched and basically destroyed. The shotgun with 00 buck has basically the same wounding mechanism as the pistol, the temporary cavity. There will be several .32 caliber projectiles creating a permanent cavity through flesh. The buckshot does not have enough velocity to fragment or cause a significant temporary cavity.

Here's some illustrations of the rifle rounds wounding mechanisms taken from 10-8:
(the shaded area is the permanent cavity)
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/shark3-1/40049-556_68_762_comparison.jpg
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/shark3-1/39621-STGvs68mm.jpg
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/shark3-1/40050-556_68AKmag.jpg

There is a good reason that the shotgun and SMG have fallen out of favor with many of our best SWAT/.mil people as primary weapons. There are simply better tools for the job.



As to the noise, get one of these:
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/shark3-1/mrp006.jpg


Since fragmentation is the key to the wounding mechanism of the high powered rifle, my rifle and silencer pictured above are chambered for 6.8mm. I have opted to only practice with 5.56 because ammo is plentiful and cheap and I typically shoot in excess of 1,000 rds a month. While this is a fairly expensive setup to use for home defense, there are much cheaper ways to obtain something that will perform similarly. Also, I don't like putting a price tag on me and my families safety, I simply want the best tool I can find to defend myself.

Different strokes for different folks, but I use my 5 shotguns to kill birds, not anything else.

dstorm1911
February 24, 2007, 01:23 PM
LMAO!! O.K lets see one trigger pull of the AR equals 1 (one) .22 cal hole the same trigger pull of ANY 12 ga. loaded with 00 buckshot equals 9 (nine) .32 cal holes......... gee I can see where the AR out performs the 12 ga every single time......

ALOT of armchair commandoing, tell ya'll what why don't some of ya explain for me WHY when it comes to close quarters the military since WWI always went with a 12 ga pump gun? Vietnam tunnel crews were armed with a 1911 .45 or a sawed off 12 ga the M-16...... it stayed outside the tunnel because when ya don't have time to shoulder a rifle, the space to shoulder a rifle or the TIME to sight a rifle the .45 or shotgun was the best and prefered choice by those men entering a tunnel looking for the AK armed vietcon...... First gulf war what did we use for securing bunkers? uhhhh ohh yea it was a 12 ga Mossburg the M-16 again stayed outside pointed at the entrance..... uh what do we use in Iraq today for entry teams? ohhh yea a Benneli 12 ga semi auto I spose though that even as EVERY police cruiser in America has a 12 gaug either semi auto or pump gun onboard and a 12 gaug is ALWAYS the first thing through the door on felony warrant service all of the military and law enforcement in this country are dead wrong those soldiers who CHOSE the 12 ga for close quarters are all idiots and should have consulted THR pro's before ever actually entering a tunnel after an armed (with full auto AK47) guarila! What a bunch of idiots them tunnel rats were to pick by their own choice such an ineffective weapon.

Not to mention EVERY police SWAT team in the country sendin in a SBR 12 gauge as the first guy through the door as SOP!!! a bunch of fools I tell ya!!

AS far as penetration...... I can put a load of 00 shot through a 1967 chevy p/u windshield while the driver is doing 50 mph trying to run me and several others down at a range of 15 yards while 4 M-16s emptied their 20 rnd clips with zero effect (most rounds bounced off the safty glass) and 2 9 MM S&Ws had lil effect........ the Autopsy showed that the individual died from 5 double ought pellets to the upper face/head 2 pellets removed a 3" chunk of skull................. Happened in Salem, Oregon in sept 1983, 7 officers attempting to serve a fellony warrant on a Meth dealer found themselves under fire from the house while the suspect literally drove his custom 1967 pu right through the garage door attempting to ram his way through the officers stationed there........... the result of the incident cause the state of Oregon re-evaluate the effectivness of the 5.56 cal they went back to .308 chambered M-14s for a number of years as a result and the 00 loaded 12 ga Rem 870 has ever since been a mandatory piece of equipment in every cruiser even SWAT members have one to suppliment the M-16 in the trunk, the 12 ga rides in the passenger compartment ready for fast acess.

GunnySkox
February 24, 2007, 01:34 PM
I use my AR for my bedside gun, because I suck like a champion with my 1911, and because my shotgun beats me up (and I suck with it). Incidentally, I also suck with my AR, but not as much.

~GnSx
Suck-shot extraordinaire!

JShirley
February 24, 2007, 01:35 PM
The 5.56mm AR is a terrible house gun IMO, unless your family members sleep with ear plugs on. You'd have a whole deaf family

I've been present, over my 30-something years, for a .270 and a .44 Magnum ND inside. Not pleasant, and not good for hearing, but suggestions that a .223 going off inside= instant deafness are just ignorant.

why don't some of ya explain for me WHY when it comes to close quarters the military since WWI always went with a 12 ga pump gun?

Easy- that's not a true statement. :p The infantry primarily uses the 12 gauge for breaching.

John

redbone
February 24, 2007, 01:37 PM
To step back on topic for a bit:

IN ORDER TO KEEP KIDS OUT OF FIREARMS, YOU MUST LOCK THE GUNS UP!!!

Locking up the rounds and mags is great... until they figure out that a single round can be loaded with out a mag. Do you have control of every single round in the neighborhood? Think about it. You've got to lock up the firearms.

The wall safe looks like a good idea. Keep a loaded mag inside with the AR or wahatever you choose. Learn how to unlock it as fast as possible.

Get a dog. That will give you a wake up and buy some time. You'll need it to get the safe unlocked.

I speak from experience here. I used to get into my Dad's guns when the folks weren't around. He thought he had them hidden in the bedroom closet. When my kids were little, everything was locked up. If they wanted to handle them, out they came, under my supervision. Nothing hidden, no mystery, and I got to drill them with the safety info everytime they handled the firearms. It worked for me. They are grown, have their own gunsafes, and we all survived. (And, they are now better shots than me).

IN ORDER TO KEEP KIDS OUT OF FIREARMS, YOU MUST LOCK THE GUNS UP!!!

Good luck, and stay safe.

RBH

shark3-1
February 24, 2007, 01:41 PM
"LMAO!! O.K lets see one trigger pull of the AR equals 1 (one) .22 cal hole the same trigger pull of ANY 12 ga. loaded with 00 buckshot equals 9 (nine) .32 cal holes......... gee I can see where the AR out performs the 12 ga every single time......"
See illustration above, learn what projectiles do before you state things like that.


"..... uh what do we use in Iraq today for entry teams? ohhh yea a Benneli 12 ga semi auto"
We used shotguns to shoot doorknobs and hinges, not people. It is an entry tool, not even a secondary.


"Not to mention EVERY police SWAT team in the country sendin in a SBR 12 gauge as the first guy through the door as SOP!!! a bunch of fools I tell ya!!"
Not someone driving a shield armed with a pistol????? Are you sure about that


Also, I find it quite insulting to be called a keyboard commando. You don't know me.
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/shark3-1/thwilsonandme.jpg

dstorm1911
February 24, 2007, 01:50 PM
John,

troops weren't useing em for breaching in the trenches of WWI nor WWII nor were tunnel rats breaching tunnels in Vietnam nor were we useing 12 ga for breaching bunkers in Desert Storm, The reason the Germans threatened death for any US Soldier captured with a 12 ga had nothing to do with opening doors but rather its devistating effect in close quarters, SWAT Entry teams load 1 breaching round the rest are 00 for after the door is opened. My Nephew curently (and has been for 2 years now) stationed in Iraq doesn't use his Benneli for breaching him and his fellow Marine's drop the M4 to sling and enter with the 12 ga leading the way into buildings etc... were time to accuratly aquire multiple targets that are fireing at you is very short..... Maybe in Aphgan they needa breach caves? The 12 ga isn't the best choice for open terrain combat and thats not where its intended to be used its intended for very close quarters such as those encountered in a HD situation and under those conditions it always gets picked first when available. The AR shines best at medium to extended ranges when time for proper target aquasition is available...

dstorm1911
February 24, 2007, 01:56 PM
shark 3-1 show me any 5.56 that can make a 3" entry hole and dump the same energy as 1 oz of 00 does and seldom exits the target.

I do know a lil bout projectiles... just a lil

shark3-1
February 24, 2007, 02:11 PM
"troops weren't useing em for breaching in the trenches of WWI"
They were originally intended to be used for shooting grenades out of the sky before they landed in the trench. The pumps had better ergos than the bolt guns in close quarters,and that is the reason that they were used, not better ballistics.

"SWAT Entry teams load 1 breaching round the rest are 00 for after the door is opened."
Why not the typical three that we are trained to use for every breach? Most just use buckshot to breach anyway:confused: .

"him and his fellow Marine's drop the M4 to sling and enter with the 12 ga leading the way into buildings etc... were time to accuratly aquire multiple targets that are fireing at you is very short"
Why, to use a slower weapon when time is short?

"its intended for very close quarters such as those encountered in a HD situation and under those conditions it always gets picked first when available."
It ALWAYS get's picked? By who?????

JShirley
February 24, 2007, 02:17 PM
used its intended for very close quarters such as those encountered in a HD situation and under those conditions it always gets picked first when available

Hm. Let's see: you, who I don't know, versus what I have seen with my own eyes. In my old infantry unit, we were issued Mossberg shotguns, which I helped the armorer install in folding stocks. These shotguns were used exclusively for breaching- the team or squad leader still carried his M4, as well.

When I was at Camp Phoenix, there were a few who carried shotguns on patrol- for dogs, since the range of shotguns is so much less than a 5.56mm.

Where I am now, I'm around the real-deal "high speed" guys, who have a wide variety of weapons they could use. I personally don't make any such claims- I'm just a regular infantryman- but I've seen what "operators" carry when hitting houses. Not shotguns! :p

John

tallpaul
February 24, 2007, 02:27 PM
Since fragmentation is the key to the wounding mechanism of the high powered rifle, my rifle and silencer pictured above are chambered for 6.8mm. I have opted to only practice with 5.56 because ammo is plentiful and cheap and I typically shoot in excess of 1,000 rds a month. While this is a fairly expensive setup to use for home defense, there are much cheaper ways to obtain something that will perform similarly. Also, I don't like putting a price tag on me and my families safety, I simply want the best tool I can find to defend myself.

Will you feel as good when the weapon and silencer are confiscated as evidence and MAY never actually come back to you? Just curious really. I have to make similar choices.

shark3-1
February 24, 2007, 02:29 PM
"shark 3-1 show me any 5.56 that can make a 3" entry hole and dump the same energy as 1 oz of 00 does and seldom exits the target."

I do know a lil bout projectiles... just a lil
Well if you actually took the time to observe the above illustrations, you would understand:

A shotgun at typical HD ranges will actually group to about 1 1/2 inces and the pellets will exit with holes around 1/3 of an inch, all six of them. With rifles, the temporary cavity will be 4.3" with 5.56 and with 6.8 (what I use) the temporary cavity will be 5.7" with typical penetrations of less than 13". Most of the time your target is thicker than 13" and the round will deposit it's energy within the target. So if you want to use the argument above, you would have 2" of exit wound with your combined BB's, while my rifle round will have a cavity of destroyed tissue around 4.5-5.5" around.

JShirley
February 24, 2007, 02:30 PM
Well...one could always pull the suppressor off and put in on a shelf before 5-0 shows...

shark3-1
February 24, 2007, 02:55 PM
"Will you feel as good when the weapon and silencer are confiscated as evidence and MAY never actually come back to you? Just curious really. I have to make similar choices."

Yes, I will feel fine. Guns like that are completely replaceable, life is not. I just want the best tool for the job.

hceptj
February 24, 2007, 03:46 PM
I have a closet vault. Put it in about 5 months ago.

I live in a 2 story house and installed it in my office closet upstairs. Took me about 30 minutes to install. Basically you just find the studs and cut one large piece of sheetrock out. Installation is simply running 3" wood screws into the studs. It comes with a key for the 2 locks and a pushbutton type quick release, sort of like the locks you see in buildings with the push buttons.

I keep a 30-30 lever action, 12 gauge pump, and 38 special revolver in it. I also keep a box of ammo for each item in it.

I wanted something for upstairs, a just in case kind of thing. I decided on the closet vault because it leaves the space pretty much unchanged (it sticks out an inch or so beyond the sheetrock) and is quick to access in a hurry. Push 3 buttons and turn the knob. I do keep stuff stored in the closet and didn't want to take up any more floor space than I already have.

I like it for its purpose and wouldn't have a problem recommending it to someone. I don't think its CA approved though, so if you live there check first.

Don't Tread On Me
February 24, 2007, 04:08 PM
I don't have any advice to offer as far as storage is concerned, especially with children around. It is a major problem a lot of us deal with in trying to store a fast-response firearm while still maintaining safety. The best solution would be to get a safe, and while at home, keep it open since you can supervise who's around the house - but that requires discipline in that you must never forget to leave it open and unattended. There's the out-of-sight-out-of-mind approach. What they don't know about, they won't look for. That will only work if they are young enough not to be able to climb, and you store it out of sight and up high.


I will note this though. I would not use an EOtech on my primary home defense gun. I have a few AR's and they are all tacticool with Aimpoints and all that fun stuff. But, when I sat down a while back and had a little serious conversation with myself and reflected on what is reality and what will I need and be most comfortable with - I've come to the conclusion that all I want is the most dirt simple firearm I can get and use. For me, that's a Saiga rifle with iron sights. Just pull back the charging handle and rock n roll. No gadgets, no lights, no electronic sighting.

I might change out the front sight post for an tritium illuminated sight post. That would be as far as I would go. An AR-15 outfitted this way would make an excellent HD rifle also. Iron sights, with optional illuminated front post.


Simple, fast and easy. You just won't have the time to fiddle with anything more. When the chips are down, I want reliable + easy and fast. Everything else is a range-toy.

sacp81170a
February 24, 2007, 07:43 PM
Yes, I will feel fine. Guns like that are completely replaceable, life is not. I just want the best tool for the job.

I got no problem with that, as long as what you think is the best tool works for you. As for recoil and follow up shots, I take it you've never fired a shotgun with a Knoxx industries SpecOps stock installed? Tames recoil quite well. I took my 12 ga. Mossy to a CCW class and had a gal who was 4'11" and weighed a whopping 102 pounds try it. She loved it and could rack off all 7 rounds (56 projectiles) in just under 6 seconds. Nearly had to fight her to get it back.

(She looked real good shooting it, too, because of the way those 102 lbs. were distributed, but, I digress. :D )

What's best for you may not be best for a 75 year old grandma, or a 250 lb. karateka who can bench 375. And saying that a shotgun is "a very poor choice", well, that's your judgement from your perspective. Don't dump on those who can't afford or can't handle the tools you think are best. Ask me if I'd rather get shot by a 12 ga. with 00 or a 5.56 and my answer will be the only rational one. Neither.

357wheelgunner
February 24, 2007, 08:25 PM
It's not a SILENCER it is a SUPRESSOR! I call "arm chair commando" here, most anyone with any form of firearms knowledge knows what a suppressor is. You can't "silence" a rifle, you can only "suppress" the sound. It's like calling nitrous oxide for your car "NOS". That garbage has only been popular because of the Fast and the Furious movies, real gearheads will always call nitrous oxide "nitrous".

As far as rifle rounds exploding like little grenades, I could care less if the bullets do that or not for HD. All I care about is smashing the guys brain or spinal chord, rendering his body inoperable. It's easier to do with a shotgun than a pistol, and I don't want to put up with a rifle in the house due to the noise issue. I'll take the gimpy "crushing" wound of a shotgun.... well all 12 of them thank you.

There is also a huge difference between the police pulling up and seeing some crazy mall ninja with his tacticool M-4gery and 30 shell casings scattered in the house, and them pulling up to see a wood stock equipped shotgun with one empty shell on the hallway floor.

Also, as was previously mentioned, not all of us have $2000 to waste on crap to hang off our rifle to make it suitable for house use.

Shotgun>Rifle for HD

Oh and who the hell told you that shotguns were originally used to shoot grenades out of the air? I almost peed my pants laughing at that!

shark3-1
February 24, 2007, 09:12 PM
This was my exact quote:
"They were originally intended to be used for shooting grenades out of the sky before they landed in the trench. The pumps had better ergos than the bolt guns in close quarters,and that is the reason that they were used, not better ballistics."

I read that about the model 97 in a winchester history book. I'll try and scan a copy of it. The intended purpose was that, but that use was not very practical in the real world. As I stated it was preffered to the bolt actions in close quarters due to the better ergonomics. But that may be a more obscure fact than I thought, but it just goes to show you that people not on the ground have almost always been in charge of weapon selection for those who are.

The reason that I said the shotgun was a poor choice isn't because I have a mall ninja gun that I think is better than whatever you have, it is because one of the choices of the OP was an AR. I listed my reasons that the AR would be better in that role. An educated person can READ through my reasons and make their own conclusions.

Silencers, suppressors, cans, mufflers, all these are names for the same things. I guess you should let the company that makes my silencer know that they are supposed to call it a suppressor, because the TM specifically says:
TM M4 SERIES
OPERATION AND MAINTENANCE OF SILENCER MODELS
M4-2000 & M472000
Oh, I guess you would also have to let the guys on the FN SCAR R&D team and the HK416 end users, and all the SPR end users know that the thing sticking off of the muzzle is for mall ninja's because it's a silencer and not a suppressor. While you're at it let those guys at the patent office know that Hiram Maxim, who invented the silencer as well as patenting (patent 916,885) and trademarking the name, is a mall ninja too.

And to the people that want to keep refering to me as a "keyboard commando". I served proudly in northern Iraq in '03 to '04 as an airborne infantry soldier much like our MOD Jshirley. I don't make any demeaning statements like that about anyone that I don't know, why would you? If you have a logical statement that you would like to contribute, go ahead. But let's not stoop to making personal insults, that's how I argued in the third grade.

357wheelgunner
February 24, 2007, 09:45 PM
"If you have a logical statement that you would like to contribute, go ahead. But let's not stoop to making personal insults, that's how I argued in the third grade."

You are right, that was definately not very "High Road" of me. I apologize :(

shark3-1
February 24, 2007, 10:18 PM
Oh, and I know that rifle is expensive, but it is no where close to the amount of money I have in shotguns. My Belgium Browning Lightning is worth twice what that AR cost me, and my Super Blackeagle costs just about as much as a baseline suppressed SBR with the both the tax stamps. I also have a great 590 that I think the world of as a all round beater gun that cost me all of $300. My point is that I have a great amount of love for the shotgun and I own several. Some of my guns I see as tools, some I see as works of art, and some I see as mementos. I like my tools for my defense to be the very best I can have.

I see my MRP as a HD tool.
I see my Black Eagle and my 590 as game getting tools.

Why does the amount of money that I spend on a rifle make it less effective in it's HD role?

I don't think that the shotgun is a bad weapon, I just stated that it was the poorer choice when compared to the AR as a HD tool and stated why I felt that way. YMMV.

shark3-1
February 24, 2007, 10:19 PM
Who is gunkid??


"You are right, that was definately not very "High Road" of me. I apologize"

No hard feelings, I just don't see the point in acting that way. We're fine. I am just trying to prevent people from getting more "info" from the errornet about HD weapons. Most have pretty radical misconceptions about military firearms and the roles they actually fill as weapons. Take the M107 for a prime example, there's another deathray that you just have to look at and it will blow your body into 15 pieces, why......because the internet told me. If anyone would like to learn more about ballistics, I suggest that you read material from Doc Gary Roberts, he posts quite often on the more technical/training oriented gun boards. But just know that most of it will deal with actual scientifically tested and real world examples of what your HD weapon of choice will actually do, this may be hard to stomach for some. YMMV.

Geno
February 24, 2007, 10:36 PM
In a couple of the Advanced Tactical courses that I have taken, we studied home, auto, parking lot, etc. defensive positions. We did live-fire practice using M4s with 6-position stocks.

When sweeping the home for bad guys, you do not want a full-length stock...it's a bear! You will want a 30-round magazine, or at least a 20-round. Forget the 90-rounder. I suggest forward rails for an M6 laser/light. Also, an ACOG on the receiver. On the carbine, you will want a vertical grip and a sling for certain. Keep the weight low.

Better yet, you may want to consider an AR pistol. Consider the same features minus the vertical grip forward...illegal. Also, no armor-pierce bullets in a pistol either. The wall safes shown here are nice, but get a quick open/access whatever you get. Reaction-time is paramount! For what it is worth, post #11 in this thread is a great choice. With regard to quick access, you should practice opening the safe under pressure. Some people freeze under pressure and can't recall their combination! You want near instant access for you, but not others.

Above all else, know your other-side-of-the-wall background. Other people, buildings, animals, etc. Don't want jail time for negligence.

Doc2005

sacp81170a
February 25, 2007, 11:06 AM
Shark 3-1: (Is that a call sign? Mine used to be Badger 5.) ;)

I don't think that the shotgun is a bad weapon, I just stated that it was the poorer choice when compared to the AR as a HD tool and stated why I felt that way. YMMV.

I hear ya. It's just that you said "very poor choice" and I took that to mean that you didn't think a shotgun was good at all. No sweat, I understand what you meant now. FWIW, my primary HD rifle is my AR, and I use it for that purpose for precisely the reasons you outline. My wife can't seem to get the hang of an AR so for her a pump shotgun works quite nicely. We both know the capabilities of our weapons and she's been to classes on both. (I have my training in nuclear security, GLCM, ABGD in the USAF, civilian law enforcement, and professional training outside the military and LE.)

A huge consideration in favor of the AR is the fragmentation effect you get at close range with sufficient muzzle velocity. It causes horrendous wounds and is comparable in effectiveness to a 12 ga. slug or #1 buck. The one area where it would be more effective is if the BG happens to be wearing a ballistic vest, in which case I'd say the 5.56 is the better choice.

Thanks for your service. I've got quite a few friends over in the sandbox and a few that have recently come back.

XavierBreath
February 25, 2007, 11:14 AM
On the shotgun vs AR debate........I have to speak. I am a diehard 00 buckshot for self defense in the home kind of guy. The reasons for my choice are my own, and they don't warrant elaboration here. Suffice to say, I've BTDT in my own home. That, however, is not what this thread is about. The OP asked:
I want to keep it [the AR] locked up and have it somewhat readily available. I'm thinking a rack above the door that has a quick release locking system. Anybody know of such a thing?This is an important question. It should not be overlooked or obscured by irrelevant debate. Start another thread for that stuff.

About a year ago myself and several other bloggers discussed this very issue. Here is my response (http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2006/02/house-guns.html) with links inside it to the responses of others.

We should all be careful calling those we do not know armchair commandos. At THR and on other forums, soldiers are posting from the field. They are blogging as well. None of us know everything, but we must make our own choices. We live by those choices, and we may die by them. With those stakes, it is wise to analyze as much information as possible.

While I prefer a shotgun for my own reasons, in the near future I see this as becoming the next Glock vs 1911 debate. There is wisdom to be gained from the old fuddy duddys like me, and new knowledge to be gained from the young bucks out there in the arena now. Let's keep this in the proper perspective and keep the respect mutual.

If anyone wants to know my reasons for the shotgun, the search engine is your friend. If you are too lazy to use it, just click here (http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2005/09/home-defense-shotguns.html).

Oh........Who is gunkid??Please don't ask. Search (http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2006/07/goodbye-gunkid.html) my friend, search.

nemoaz
February 25, 2007, 01:36 PM
An 18" barrelled shotgun has a spread of about 10" at 5 yards.

You need to pattern your shotgun. It will be a couple of inches at best.

Eyesac
February 25, 2007, 01:45 PM
Shark 3-1, I agree that if you're kicking doors down 16hrs a day, there's no other gun I'd have than an AR. I just think for the civilian like my self, opening doors and turning on lights in my house is a lot easier with a pistol. I realize the disadvantage of the pistol vs rifle round, but ergonomics wins for me...

If it came down to a shotgun or AR I'd pick AR again for above reasons, my AR is a lot easier maneuvered indoors. Just the act of keeping a firearm pointed on target while reaching for a door handle is a big factor for me.

shark3-1
February 25, 2007, 06:08 PM
When I do have my girlfriends nieces and nephews at my house, I still keep my rifle in a safe during the day, but place it in the recessed area on top of my armoire in my bedroom at night. It cannot be seen but is still handy and well out of the reach of the curtain crawlers. Sometimes the simplest solutions are the best.

I'm not exactly positive, but I believe that this is the Winchester history book that references the Model '97: http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0832905038&id=T-Irz4qHwsQC&pg=RA3-PA50&lpg=RA3-PA50&ots=-XeQVAk1Q9&dq=history+of+the+winchester++97&sig=VrhVnd1Q6ANZBKHtErO-Wf_Ld-0 I'll try and photograph the page in my grandfather's book that I found the reference. He is an avid collector of Model 97's.

Speaking of safety in HD situations, I think that a HUGE safety issue that hasn't been addressed in this thread is the flashlight. It won't matter if I use an AT-4 or a Red Rider if I can't see the target. Why? Target identification is THE #1 SAFETY RULE WHEN ACTUALLY USING A FIREARM FOR DEFENSE!!!!!!!! You can get very cheap and durable lights for any weapon that you use. Please for the love of Almighty God don't shoot at something that you can't see. I'm not advocating putting every tacticool doo-dad that you can afford on the rifle. I am saying that for whatever weapon that you choose to use for HD, make sure that the only thing that you buy besides ammo is a light of some sort that you can easily use while still having the weapon in your control. I can't even count the reasons why.

heypete
February 27, 2007, 12:27 AM
It's not a SILENCER it is a SUPRESSOR!

Really? That's not what it says on my Form 4, nor does it say anything about "suppressors" in the NFA. Legally, they're called "silencers", even if they technically only "suppress" the sound of a shot.

See attached image, scanned from my Form 4.

nemoaz
February 27, 2007, 02:26 AM
Birdshot at typical home defense range is devastating.

There have been quite a few threads on this in the last few months alone.
It makes a devasting wound that is a few inches wide and a few inches deep. I've seen quite a few of these, including several head shots. None incapacitated the bad guy. Maybe you've seen one that would. Not saying it cannot happen, but the odds are against it.

Only the ignorant (lacking knowledge) would use birdshot. It penetrates only a couple of inches and won't penetrate a skull. The only reasonable hope of an incapacitating wound is trying to put that two inch pattern in the bad guys neck or eyes. Now I know that some bad guys are going to stop if you put a CB in his foot, but some aren't going to stop until the physiologically must.

There is also a huge difference between the police pulling up and seeing some crazy mall ninja with his tacticool M-4gery and 30 shell casings scattered in the house, and them pulling up to see a wood stock equipped shotgun with one empty shell on the hallway floor.

It depends on where you are and, frankly, who you are. You can seem like an out of control blood thirsty killer who was waiting for a chance to strike with either weapon. I think you're right that the shotgun makes a more favorable first impression, though.

even as EVERY police cruiser in America has a 12 gaug either semi auto or pump gun onboard... Not to mention EVERY police SWAT team in the country sendin in a SBR 12 gauge as the first guy through the door as SOP!!! a bunch of fools I tell ya!!"

Maybe thirty years ago. Not today that I've ever seen. With most departments, shotguns have gone the way of the wheelgun.

putting a full spread of 00 Buckshot into someone, center of mass, at home defense ranges is about the same as putting nine rounds of 9mm

Not at all. The shotgun is firing lightweight non expanding pellets with only a fraction of the energy of a 9mm with it's many times heavier expanding bullet. I could do the math, but it's too late.

The only AR I'd ever consider using in the house would be an SBR 9mm. Actually that's a good idea,

Can't even imagine a reason to do that unless you were intending to suppress the thing. Or have a stash of 9mm mags (are those stens?) or 9mm ammo. 9mm penetrates a bunch and the 147 grain crap is guaranteed to through and through unless the bad guy looks like Charlie Weiss.

The 5.56mm AR is a terrible house gun IMO, unless your family members sleep with ear plugs on.

It wouldn't be pleasant but it certainly wouldn't deafen anyone. The military shoots M4 out of short barrels indoors every single day!

There is no other sound in the world like a pump gun being racked, and most of the bad guys know what it sounds like.

People react to racking a round on an M4 also. I can't say that either reaction was much different.

Cannot find the quote now, but to whomever was recommending the EOTech, foregrip and other such foolishness. Do you really think that is necessary to hit a target across the room? People must have much bigger houses than I do. And that vertical foregrip is the most useless tacticool crap ever invented.

Also, as was previously mentioned, not all of us have $2000 to waste on crap to hang off our rifle to make it suitable for house use.

Me either. That's why I have a shotgun at home. But given a chance, I take an AR over a shotgun every time for any situation (night/day, inside/outside).

swingset
February 27, 2007, 05:25 AM
Shotgun>Rifle for HD

That's your opinion, but all weapons have strengths and weaknesses. There's no "best", only the best for a particular circumstance...one often times out of your control. Many of the leading firearms trainers, experts and LE/.mil folks in the country have gone against your opinion, btw.

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