[cajun47]

i have a ruger 9mm, s&w 9mm, ruger .45acp, s&w .44 mag revolver.

i went hog hunting with my .44mag, shot at one three times about 50 yards away while it was running. i thought i missed cause it never seemed to be effected until it dropped 70+ yards later. the federal hydrashocks i used worked well and went through tearing up all its insides but i didn't see any "stopping power".

i had a huge dog come up to me barking and looked like it wanted to kill me so i shot him in the chest with my .45acp. he ran away and died a few streets later. again where is the stopping power?

i gator hunt legally. i have shot gators with both 9mm and .45acp in the scull. they both penetrate the scull well except one time i shot a 12' gator with the .45acp and the bullets didn't go completely in.

im wondering where is the proof that a .45acp has that much more stopping power than a 9mm? i don't see either round knocking a man down. i know the .45acp and .44mag will make slightly bigger holes than the 9mm but in most cases the 9mm has 15+ rounds at the pull of the trigger compared to my .45acp's 7 rounds.

am i missing something?

[cajun47]

and where can i find a balistics chart for handguns and rifles? fps, energy, ect.

[cajun47]

bump?

[Franco2shoot]

This one goes on and on.. I asked the question about a year ago in reference to my 1911 and the .45 acp round. I referred to the old story about stopping a charging Moro in the Phillippeans and how the Army switched to the .45 as a result.

Unfortunately, Hollywood has given us this image of people being knocked backwards. They go so far as to wire a cable to an actor and jerk the stuntman backwards, and I believe this is where the notion of stopping power really comes from. In real life, I THINK it is a little different. A charging bear/hog/human may crumple as a result of massive internal damage and that is indeed an impediment to forward progress ie Stopping power.

So you are left with which round does the most damage as it makes it's way through. And even after that determination you're gonna be left with the commercial advisory, "Your results/milage may vary" or if you are running away from one of the aforementioned, "Images may be closer than they appear in Mirror".

KKKKFL

[CJ]

A good start to reading is on Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stopping_power

To quote a decent introduction from there: "Many ballistic and forensic experts claim that "stopping power" does not exist, especially with handgun bullets. Stopping is caused not by the force of the bullet, but by the damaging effects of the bullet which are typically a loss of blood, and with it, blood pressure."

As for experiences with animals, each physiology is going to have different criteria for what will stop it. Typically, not being a hunter, the 'stopping power' discussions I've seen are regarding humans. Complaining that a reputed 'stopper', such as a .357 magnum round, failed to stop a moose isn't really a fair comparison.

As for charts, a rather rudimentary one is on http://www.recguns.com/Sources/VIIE8.html and most manufactureres also have some sort of charting available on their sites.

[strat81]

I am not an expert, but my view is: worry less about stopping power and worry more about shot placement. Shoot a grown, healthy man in the leg with a 9mm, he'll probably live. Shoot him in the head through the eye socket, death is pretty much guaranteed. Shoot a doped up meth-head or skell on PCP center-mass, he'll probably still run around. Central nervous system shot will bring him down. Shoot a deer in the leg with your brand new .308, it'll limp off and die a few hours/days later from blood loss or infection. Shoot it through the heart/lungs, it'll go down pretty quickly.

Remember that shooting a few months back in NYC where the cops unloaded into a car full of guys, killing the groom the day before his wedding? One of those guys lived after sustaining multiple shots. Don't get hit in a vital organ, artery, or vein and get medical attention quickly, you'll probably be ok.

Shot placement: it's what's for dinner.

[highlander 5]

Stopping power is theoretically the ability of a firearm,most a likely a handgun to stop aggressive behavior in the fewest number of shots preferably one. Handguns are not the best choice for this theory. As stated previously humans and animals react differently to being shot. There is a book by Ed Sanow and Evan Marshall on the subject but I'm not sure of the title but I do know it deals with handgun/pistol cartridges. If you want stopping power carry a shotgun but since this is not very practical handguns are the only alternative. Supposedly the 357 mag and 40 S&W have the best "one shot stop" rate of all pistol and handguns.

[GeorgiaGlocker]

My wife sometimes shoots my Glock 19 in the "family jewels" area at the range. That may qualify as a man stopper. :what:

[mljdeckard]

There are those who have come to the conclusion that stopping power coming from the actual impact of the bullet hitting the target doesn't exist. It is the temporary cavity, created from the bullet expending energy in the target, and the cavity trauma, which is all the tissue damage caused by the bullet making a cylindrical cavity through flesh, nerves, and blood vessels that do all the stopping. They back this up with studies and gelatin block pictures.

HOWEVER,

This means that a bullet, which has enough energy to break your ribs and damage organs through a vest, doesn't have enough kinetic energy under any circumstances to knock a man over. I don't buy that.

Also, I have seen deer hit broadside with a .223 at negligible range, and deer hit broadside in the same circumstances with a 45-70. The one hit with a .223 wasn't visibly injured at all, it ran away and bled out from a critical hit. The one hit with the 45-70 was knocked off its feet and crumpled inward. I have been told, this was my imagination. No bullet can physically knock something over. I don't buy that either.

The truth is that bullets do unpredictable things. None of this science is so reliable that you want to bet your life on it. Whether you believe in knockdown power or cavity trauma, or both, you will have the best results with larger bullets. Larger diameter/expansion means more cm3 of cavity trauma. Larger heavier, slower bullets mean that more of the bullet's energy will be soaked up by the target, either in the form of a temporary ballooning cavity or the bullet pushing against the target, and thereby minimizing or eliminating energy leaving the target. (Wasted energy.)

Whether you are using 230 grain hydra-shoks, 115 grain 9mm fmj, or 147 grain jhp, whatever, remember that putting that bullet in the right place is more important than how many cm3 of tissue damage it causes, or how hard it is hitting the target. Also, anything worth shooting, is worth shooting twice. (At least.) Whatever the likelihood that the bullet you are using will do the job, that likelihood is multiplied by how many good hits you get.

And remember, the guys on Mythbusters are not actually scientists.

[shadowalker]

There are two equally important things needed, penetration and shot placement. Placement without penetration does you no good nor does penetration without placement. It is a balancing act to find the bullet that you can place accurately that has enough penetration to get the job done.

I'd suggest googling for terminal ballastics, there is a lot of information out there, some good some bad so read as much as find until you aren't interested anymore. You can also start at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_ballistics and take a look at Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness at the bottom of the page.

Basically handguns cause damage by penetrating and destroying tissue. The bigger the bullet the more likely it is to contact vitals rather than passing them by, the heavier a bullet is the better it penetrates. They do not travel fast enough to inherit some of the effects of rifle bullets, the only thing you can depend on is the permanent wound cavity.

There are still plenty of times expanding bullets don't expand, a larger bullet such as a 45 ACP starts out about as big as a fully expanded 9mm bullet. Expansion decreases penetration so expanding bullets in calibers that already have limited penetration capability might not work very well.

Light bullets are more likely to not penetrate or be deflected or destroyed by bones. So for the same reason a lot of people heavier bullets for Elk than for Deer a heavier handgun bullet can be more likely to penetrate sufficiently.

Also don't buy the argument "more people have been killed by X caliber than X" the reasoning is flawed, the argument could be made the more people have been killed by rocks than guns so rocks are obviously a better tool for self defense. Or that X brand of car is less safe than Y because more people have been killed in X, never mind that there are 5 times more X cars on the road than Y car.

[DogBonz]

I would just like to add:

1. Your examples are on animals. Most Animals are not aware that they should lie down and die or seek medical attention if shot.

2. Your observation about 9mm and 45 ACP in gator skull dosen't surprise me at all. The 9mm moving faster with a higher sectional dencity should penetrate further. The 45 having a larger frontal surface area should do more damage in soft tissue.

[Geronimo45]

It's hard to compute 'stopping power' - with handguns - because they usually don't want people doing live-fire tests with human beings.

The Marshall-Sanow results have been discredited - not sure exactly what they did, but the consensus is that the figures aren't true to life.

If we gave Jerry Miculek (sp) a 9mm and you a .45, and sent you both against Zombie hordes, you'd probably find that 9mm is the best stopper.

No conclusive proof, that I'm aware of, that .45 trumps 9mm. It's a heavier bullet at lower speed - but does a lighter bullet at higher speed do more damage? I couldn't say.

My idiot's guide to ballistics (written by me for me) would seem to indicate that a slower, heavier bullet hits things at a slower speed - and would mean that there would be more tearing of the target surface, while (again to idiot's guide) a higher velocity round - generally with a more spire-like tip - would tend to cut through, in a more knife-like fashion.

That may be the case, and it may not be. I have no idea and no ballistics knowledge.

[tnieto2004]

shot placement> "stopping power"

[MechAg94]

I think the 9mm vs. .45 is highly dependent on what type of ammunition is used. If FMJ is all you use, .45 is likely much better, but when you start using JHP's and such, 9mm can do lots of damage as well.

I do agree that shot placement and accurate shooting under pressure is the key. Can you shoot fast and accurately under pressure?

[CountGlockula]

i went hog hunting with my .44mag, shot at one three times about 50 yards away while it was running. i thought i missed cause it never seemed to be effected until it dropped 70+ yards later. the federal hydrashocks i used worked well and went through tearing up all its insides but i didn't see any "stopping power".

Hog dropped dead.

i had a huge dog come up to me barking and looked like it wanted to kill me so i shot him in the chest with my .45acp. he ran away and died a few streets later. again where is the stopping power?

Huge Dog died.

i gator hunt legally. i have shot gators with both 9mm and .45acp in the scull. they both penetrate the scull well except one time i shot a 12' gator with the .45acp and the bullets didn't go completely in.

Shoot the gator a couple more times, then it'll stop living.

am i missing something?

Stopping Power=threat or life has been Stopped. Just my thoughts.

[rolltide]

***I was typing while CountGlockula was posting, this is kind of an extension of what he said.***

"Stopping Power" is not "Dropping Power." There are often big discussions about this when people are really talking about 2 different things. "Stopping Power" as discussed by Marshall and Sanow seemed to mean making an attacker "Stop" the attack (i.e. your shot on the dog was a "stopper," it made the dog stop attacking you even though the dog ran for several blocks.) The Fackler crowd usually seem to mean physical incapacitation, making an attacker "drop." These two things are not the same, and hence the source of endless debate from 2 different perspectives that are really talking about 2 different things as though they were the same. No wonder these 2 different camps never agree. In a personal defense situation against either man or predatory animal, the main thing you are looking for is to make the attacker break off the attack. In looking at real world shootings in the news or from crime reports or whatever, it seems most attacks are "stopped" long before the attacker "drops," but not always (a person can be so affected by drugs that they do not feel pain and cannot think clearly. That person would probably require physical incapacitation to make them stop an attack. A teen just out mugging defensless victims for fun money might run away if shot by a 22, or even confronted by one. His motivation in the attack is fun. When it is no longer fun, he is done. He may be "stopped" before a shot is ever fired.)

A "dropper" is always a "stopper," but a "stopper" is not always a "dropper," and the debate goes on.

Against animals, hunters are usually looking for physical incapacitation or "dropping" the animal so they do not have to track it, especially on dangerous game. That can be done 3 ways, by dropping blood pressure enough to cause immobitlity (almost impossible to do instantaneously on wild animals), taking out the CNS, or taking out the running gear. Most settle for a heart lung shot that might not drop the animal instantly, but will drop them surely and usually within a short space of time and distance.

On charging dangerous game, the concept of "turning" (eqivalent to "stopping" a human attack) comes into play. Here again the main thing is to stop the attack before the shooter is injured. Most professional hunters will tell you that it is nearly impossible to shoot a charging animal through the brain or spine CONSISTENTLY, even though they train continuously and are prepared to keep their nerve in such situations. What they do is carry enough gun to inflict so much damage with just one solid hit so as to make the animal "turn" away from the shooter if they do not "drop" immediately. The 458 Lott shooting a "tomato paste can" size hole straight through a living creature, man or beast, at about 2500 fps will USUALLY instantly change their mind about attacking the shooter, even if it does not instantly incapacitate them. Short of carrying a 458 Lott, we better be prepared to deal with some degree of uncertainty in the situation.

Roll Tide

[cajun47]

"As for charts, a rather rudimentary one is on http://www.recguns.com/Sources/VIIE8.html and most manufactureres also have some sort of charting available on their sites."

thank you thank you thank you for that link

[rolltide]

Here is the most comprehensive collection of ballistics for factory ammo that I know of. Just select a handgun of long gun cartridge and it will display the info.

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ballistics/?url=%2Fballistics%2F30_06.html&x=10&y=9

[EricTheBarbarian]

how do you get to hunt gators and how expensive is it for a permit? Thatd definetly be worth the drive way down south.

[cajun47]

thanks for that gun n ammo chart too!

the state of louisiana grants gator tags to land owners. the land owners say who gets the tags. my brother works for a major land owner and thats how i get a few. its extremely hard to get the tags.

im looking at my chart and it looks like i was getting close to $50 per foot for the smaller gators(5' to 6') and closer to $40 per foot for the 10' ones. i didn't realize this. its opposite of what it used to be.

anyway the land owner takes 30% of the gator sales. i get 70% but im on my own with expense. gas is expensive plus i had to buy a new lower unit for my yamaha 115 and my boat trailer needs work. i have to buy bait, rope, hooks. when its all said and done i guess i get around $20 per gator foot. :banghead:

[tnieto2004]

http://www.users.qwest.net/~cm42/images/AKpistol1a.JPG

Try one of those for stopping a gator .. :neener:

[texas bulldog]

since the first question really was not about the value of so-called stopping power, but just "what is it...", here is the marshall report that has been alluded to in a couple of previous posts:

http://www.neiassociates.org/caliber.htm

i was not aware that it has since been discredited. at the very least, though, it explains the concept of stopping power. buy into it if you wish, or don't. i think some of it makes sense, particularly the effectiveness of various rounds within a particular caliber. certainly, sample size or methods of selecting data could play a large factor in results as well. it seems marshall tried to address these issues, but he also admits that he doesn't have as much data as he'd like to have had. it's also interesting that he ultimately concludes [B]that there is not a significant enough difference between 9mm, 40S&W, .357, and 45ACP and that you should choose the gun that you shoot best [e.g. shot placement].

however...
i have to disagree, rolltide, that marshal is really talking about "stopping an attack" as opposed to "dropping". from his definition for a successful stop:

A stop was defined as the assailant collapsing within 10 feet.

he then goes on to discuss ceasing any attack that they were engaged in, but that first sentence seems to clearly indicate a "drop".


anyway...i will agree that shot placement greatly trumps "stopping power", if such a thing even exists. it never hurts to look at data, but it doesn't provide the "answer" either.

$.02

[rolltide]

Thanks Texas Bulldog for the link to the Marshall data. I stand corrected about my definition of "stopping power" according to M&S. I had overlooked the part about collapsing in 10 feet. This makes the Marshall data even more impressive to me. The Marshall Data has only been discredited if you believe the spin of Fackler and others, but I certainly will not argue that point as it has been argued countlessly over the years. I think you have stated some excellent points about the value of the Marshall Data, and I for one still consider it the best real life study done to date. Like you, I will let others use it or ignore it as they will.

Roll Tide

[texas bulldog]

roll tide,

i only knew where to find the marshall report because i had read it fairly recently. i'm not real familiar with the fackler counterpoint, and i'm always open to hear the dissenting opinion. do you know where i could find more information on that?

thanks.

[ravencon]

Something to keep in mind for perspective are the experiences of men like Bill Jordan and Charles Askins of the Border Patrol who frequently had deadly encounters at close ranges with bad guys. Even well placed, multiple rounds of large bore handguns, shotguns and rifles will sometimes fail to quickly stop amped up humans.

[rolltide]

Texas Bulldog,

The Marshall article you listed was a very condensed version of the data from several of his books. I had not seen that and appreciate you posting the link.

The following post should give you tons of reading on the Anti-Marshall side of things. Scroll down the page to the "Closing the book on Marshall Sanow" section. This site actually has some great information outside of their fallacious attempts to discredit the Marshall data. They have collected some "testimony" from people who claim this or that did not happen like Marshall said (just a bunch of "we said/they said" kind of stuff if you ask me.)Their major point is that the Marshall data is not a scholarly statistical anaylsis. Marshall never pretended it was, but simply because the situation does not lend itself to classical statistical analysis (too many variables), doesn't mean some very useful information cannot be gathered. I believe Marshall has taken time to gather more useful data on actual shootings than anyone else and I accept it for what it is and use it to my benefit. Anyway, here is where you will find the Anti-Marshall stuff.

http://www.firearmstactical.com./tactical.htm

This site actually presents a ton of great data on physiology in respect to trauma and incapacitation. The only bone I have to pick with them is that they seem to ignore the fact that almost all fights end long before the attacker is actually physically incapacitated. That is a significant fact and anything that contributes to the ending of the fight the fastest should be considered, even if it cannot be neatly measured and categorized. They do a pretty great job of measuring and categorizing everything that lends itself to that kind of analysis, and I appreciate their effort in that regard.

[rolltide]

Ravencon makes an excellent point. Many combat veterans can share similar anecdotes from what they have seen people take and still keep coming. There are very few certainties in life, and that is especially true for self-defense situations. My best advice is to live accordingly.

Just my 2 cents,

Roll Tide

[mr.trooper]

IMO "stopping power" is largely a myth that most shooters use as an excuse to try and make up for poor shot placment.

The reality of it is that almost any mainstream cartridge will serve you fine for self defence if you place your shots correctly.

Even so there may be other mitigating factors; like drugs for example. Sometimes people are so hopped up on adrenalin they dont even know theyv been shot. This is true of every caliber.

[texas bulldog]

thanks, roll tide.

you're spot on when you say it's a lot to sort through, but it looks like there's some good stuff in there. i'll take some time to run it all through the BS filter when i get a chance.

[Feanaro]

i'm not real familiar with the fackler counterpoint, and i'm always open to hear the dissenting opinion. do you know where i could find more information on that?

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=65038
http://www.firearmstactical.com/afte.htm

Like rumps, everybody has an opinion. Mine is that M&S's info is too dubious to be of any use to me. They did characterize stopping power very well though. "Stopping power in an illusion."