[Solinvictus70]

A local gun-and-pawn just got in a ton of new EAA (Tanfoglio) Witness pistols in 9mm, .45 ACP, & .40. Does anyone have any experience with these? I know they are CZ-75 knockoffs. Thanks.:)

[SoDFW Jason]

I was wondering the same thing myself.

[Sean Smith]

I had one of their 10mm guns, which is based on their large-frame .45 (or vice versa?).

The old ones had some bad mags shipped with them, which should be a non-issue now. Mine was reliable and had nice ergnomics, but accuracy was so-so and the trigger was mediocre. I'd suggest you are probably better off with the CZs they are a copy of, but they aren't bad guns.

[Sisco]

I had a full size carry-comp in 45acp, really nice gun. The only problem I had was that it would'nt feed semi-wadcutters, but that's really no big deal.
I put 1200-1500 rounds through it before I sold it to finance a new Kimber, but I wouldn't hesitate to buy another if one came along.
If you search the archives at www.thefiringline.com you'll find lots of info. The one major complaint is that their customer service isn't very good.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid41/p50205ea2cf12be5216a5e45d99336b14/fcf75eb3.jpg

[Tropical Z]

Dont just believe everything you read about EAA's "poor customer service".Ive dealt with them twice and both times received prompt courteous service.Enough people have read about their poor service without actually USING IT to pass it around as the gospel.I like the witness series and am considering one in 10mm.Ive read that the witness series is actually an improvement on the CZ's in some respects.

[iamkris]

I've had two Witnesses. One polymer framed compact model that was a problem child (FTE, slide lock back in middle of mag) and a TacII (compact slide on a full size frame) that I currently own and is turning out to be a pretty good pistol.

Technically it isn't a CZ knockoff. Tanfoglio "borrowed" the design from CZ back in the Cold War days. No IP enforcement over the Iron Curtain. They have made several improvements to the design. (Not putting down CZs)

The Wonder Finish is next to perfect. Tanfoglios are very popular in Europe for recreational and speed shooting. They have a reputation for being very accurate. Fit and finish is a little below CZ. Better caliber choices. Ergonomics are pretty much perfect for me. EAAs customer service is spotty (I have used it twice...one good result, one bad).

Pretty good bargain all around.

[Rob Pincus]

I have two 10mm, one compact one full size. One is "wonder finish" and one is blued.

There have both been good guns. They are heavy and they have some sharp eges (sights esp.), but you can't beat them at their price level!

[Snowdog]

I bought an EAA compact Witness in .40S&W with Wonderfinish a few years ago. An attractive pistol that scores high on ergonomics. Too bad it doesn't function properly.

This pistol never feeds the last 3 rounds in the magazine. It's been sent back to EAA for repairs three times (yes, three times!) with the same "test fired-OK" response sent back with the pistol.

Nope, not "ok"... it still chokes on the last few rounds.


My experience with EAA is that they are not rude as much as they are incompetent.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid41/pb7d52dc9e0e11604e612ef2d6bfa51f2/fcfb60c7.jpg

[TODD3465]

I've owned one of their .45's and never had much of a problem with it. Except it ejected hotter loads better than moderate ones. Never jamed but just barely ejected the lighter ones. Wish I still had it.:(

Now I'd like to get one of their 10mm's as mentioned above it seems that the large frame gum was made for a real heavy load.:D

[boogalou]

Have a full-size .45 Witness with wonder finish. The pistol has been stone cold reliable with hardball & SWC's after a little polishing of the feed ramp. Gun is just as accurate as my Springfield, the finish is nice, the steel is harder then hell, and it cost me a grand total of $270. I don't think you can find a better .45 auto for the money.

Also, should you so desire, you can get the a 10mm or .38 super conversion kit for around $225. Get the .40 S&W barrel with the 10mm kit and you're shooting 3 calibers out of one gun for around $300.

The only bad thing about mine is the weight & size. They are not small.

[Big Mike]

I had a full size .45 blue. I sold it to a fellow TFL'r to finance something else. I never had a problem with anything I shot through it. I was a flawless performer and deadon accurate. I too had a few deficient experiences in asking EAA CS questions. After that I always went through Tanfoglio in Italy.

IF the AWB does sunset, I think their full size 10mm (14 rds?)would be a serious consideration for purchase. I would say buy. For the money they are not bad and the grip is something to behold. Have fun. Mike

www.tanfoglio.it

[cratz2]

I currently own one and have owned three others... Minimal problems. Never had a 45, but if the right deal came along on the right one, I'd take it. In general, the CZ guns, which I've had a few of, are definately better finished but I haven't noticed a marked difference in reliability and not a whole lot in accuracy.

In the new market, the CZs are roughly $50-ish more than the EAA but used, I've seen some really good prices on the EAAs. The CZs tend to keep their value a bit better. Or so I've seen.

This one's been 100% reliable and while I've never carried it, 16+1 rounds of 40S&W and no joke! ;)

http://photos.imageevent.com/cratz2/guns//DCP_0793.jpg

[michiganfan]

I have a full size 45 and a full size 10mm. I really like both of them a lot. Both of them have been good to go right out of the box. Would reccommend both guns.

[Nick96]

Check out the "CZForum.com - Clone Club" website:

http://pub105.ezboard.com/fczechpistols82792frm35

Everything you'd want to know about CZ's and their various clones (Tanfogilio/Witness) can be found there. The pistols are all based on the Chech CZ-75 design. This is basically a Browning operating system design (i.e. Browning Hi-Power Hi-cap 9MM) - with the major diffenance being the slide rails are internal (like the SIG 210) - rather than external (like S&W, Ruger, Glock - and Browning HP).

I've got an older Tanfoglio (the actual Itallian manufacturing company) model. The pistol is very accurate, easily handled, reliable (with proper maintenance & ammo) and is of superior ergonomic design to many popular auto loaders. Tanfoglio supplies finished pistols or major components to many manufacturers & importers who have produced such pistols as the EAA Witness, Bren 10, TZ-75, TA-90, Sphinks, IMI Baby Desert Eagle and Springfield P-9.

These are very popular pistols in Europe and Asia, and have a considerable following in the USA in competition shooting. Worldwide, they are probably second only to the Colt 1911 design in terms of popularity and custom accessories available to build whatever type of auto pistol you may desire. The EAA Witness "brand" pistols are most comonly found in the U.S., though variations have been imported under the names of F.I.E and Excam in previous years. They are available in a number of different calibers & configurations. Base prices tend to be very reasonable (under $400).

In my personal opinion, these are very good "race gun" platforms - and good for those who desire a comfortable and accurate out of the box plinking pistol. As a personal defence weapon though - they are very tight (which helps with accuracy) - but are less tollerant of poor maintenance, lubrication and inconsistantly loaded (cheap - bulk - reloaded) ammo than the more "service" oriented Ruger, S&W and Glock semi-autos.

In summary, if you are going to bet your life on a fairly low maintenance, knock around service auto pistol - get a S&W, Ruger or Glock. If you are looking for a casual plinker - are willing to keep up with ongoing cleaning & lubrication for CCW - or looking for a base platform gun for competion shooting - they are hard to beat.

[Wild Bill]

My experience with the guns and the company have been great. Have two – a full size blue-steel 45, and a compact “wonderfinish” 40.

Shot the 45 in IPSC stock class for a few years. Thought it was a dud at first with a FTF issue caused by a very rough feed ramp. Sent it to EAA for a polish. Came back in mere days performing like a wonder gun and has done so ever since. Paul Richter was the VP at the time. Took the time to call before the work was done and follow-up after. Great guy, great service.

The compact 40 is a bit heavy, but serves me well as a primary CWP unit. I’ve experienced no problems at all with this piece. Only thing I would change is to trash the factory sights for a lower profile set.

CZ knock-off ? Sure. Maybe not quite the same quality? Ok. Atypical experience? Maybe, but count me in as a satisfied customer.

[nvrquit]

Well, I'll weigh in once more on this topic. As for actually "USING IT", I can say without fear of contradiction(based upon multiple dealings with EAA), that EAA can be VERY non-customer friendly when they choose to be.

I won't waste the space or time here, but will recommend a compound search be performed on this forum and on the old Firing Line forum. Perform the search using EAA and my nom-de-plume. Doing so will return several posts; read the ones that have the most returns and use the links to find posts on other forums. As one will read, I was not alone in the treatment received from EAA.

To those that have not experienced the "spotty", rude or otherwise inconsiderate CS that I and others have experienced in dealing with EAA, I'm glad that you didn't. However, to those that doubt it really has happened, I can(and would) testify that it most certainly did!

[Handy]

The $300 Wonderfinish .45 carry-comp I had was the most accurate factory recoil operated gun I had ever shot. It was nicely built, had a mirror polished feed ramp and a good trigger. The chamber was tight, so it didn't like reloads. Really nice gun, though.

[jem375]

My 10MM Witness Compact shoots great............

[Bren]

I have the limited run 10mm ported "target" that I got from CDNN for $329 in wonder finsih.

My buddy has the 45 and 22kit and they all work perfect. I'd strongly recommend the wonder finish which has a nice color (for a silver gun) and is very durable.

They actually are a simplified CZ with a shorter strut hidden in the frame. The triggers could use some work but since CZ doesn't make a 10mm, (their loss) and the price is so good,,, it's really a no brainer. :D

[PCRCCW]

Im a well known for "things CZ"....and of their clones. The witness is a great gun and is the most popular of the Tan Copies.

As far as an Improvement over the CZ...if my be in theory but the application leaves a little to be desired. EAA guns arent quite up to CZ spec in reliability and mechanical smoothness...............

At the CZForum...the Clones club can verify this.......its one of our most popular club.........
When they run right...which is most of the time...the run great.

Shoot well

[makdaddy03]

I really didnt like mine. It was a 40cal. Jammed on nearly every round. I wanted one so bad because "Ayoob" kept praising them. Take my advice and buy yourself a real CZ.;)

[Walt Sherrill]

I think the Witness *might* be an improvement on the CZ design, but (as PCRCCW said above), the actual implementation sometimes leaves something to be desired.

And I think they've made a strong effort to improve customer service, but personally know of a horror story or two from a few years back that scared me away, until I got one (mentioned below) in trade for a .22.

(The Witnesses do the same basic stuff as CZ, and do it very well, with fewer parts. This allows faster and simpler manufacturing and, in theory, lower costs. There is also a lot of after-market stuff for Witnesses, and just a little for CZs.)

I've got a Witness Sport Long Slide in .45 and it is suprisingly accurate and pleasant to shoot. And after a lot of work getting the trigger where I wanted it, it is now one of my favorite guns, along with a CZ-85 Combat and a Browning Hi-Power.

[makdaddy03]

Maybe the "Higher Priced Raceguns" But the $300 Witness that I had sucked. The Witness not even comes close to my CZ75.

[nvrquit]

I've attempted to keep my ear "to the tracks" in relation to the mentioned improvement in EAA's customer service. From what I have gathered in conversations with local owners of Witness pistols, the situation has improved, but only to a small degree. The feedback still seems to indicate that if a particular situation requires multiple returns of an EAA supported product to correct an issue, then EAA's tolerance and handling of the situation becomes.... strained. I say this as the information indicates that other EAA supported products are sometimes handled in a manner similar to what some Witness owners have experienced(some good, some fair, others.. well, very bad). From the feedback and web research it appears that the improvement is on the 10% to 15% order. Any improvement is good, but some at EAA are still terse and short with some customers.

In the end, it would appear that it comes down to expecting to get what you pay for. That being that a $300 to $350 firearm that has had a history of some spotty QC and CS is a value ONLY if it works well from purchase or requires very minimal support. Good luck to anyone that requires a deeper assist from EAA's CS staff, as they still appear to have a limited understanding of the issue.

When they work, a Tanfoglio Witness pistol is a joy to shoot. When they don't, hope that EAA's mood is good when you contact them or that you happen to have the right person pick-up the phone when you call.

Shoot safe, shoot well!

[HBK]

I had an EAA 10mm. It was a POS so I traded it in, but the 10mm Bren spoke of seems to be much improved from the one I had. I'm always looking for a good 10mm. $329 is a steal, if the gun isn't a POS.

[Pumpkinheaver]

I had one in 9mm. It was reliable, fairly accurate and fit my hand like a glove. In a moment of stupidity I sold it to my uncle. I would buy another one in a minute.

[Herk]

OK, stupid question.

Is this pistol like some 1911's where holstering it loaded with one in the chamber requires the gug to be in the cocked and locked position? I think it's called condition one? Is it DA, DAO, or SA?

I like the cheapness of it, but have been scared off so far since I have heard of very bad customer service if something is wrong with it.

Thanks,
Raul

[Marcus]

Herk,it`s DA with the option of carrying it cocked and locked if you like.

I have a 10mm full sized Witness. Pretty nicely made gun,not quite as nice as my CZ. The trigger wasn`t all that great but has smoothed out nicely. It`s suprisingly accurate. Reliability is as issue though,it`s okay with milder loads (up to Hornady and Blazer level) but it tended to lock the slide open on a partially full mag with the HOT Corbon 180gr. hunting loads. I swapped in some Wolff springs and did a little tweaking and it`s fine now.

VS. my CZ? The CZ is made a little nicer. The grip frame and especially beavertail tang of the Witness are even more comfortable than the CZ to me. The Witness safety can be engaged any time unlike the CZ which has to be cocked. The CZ has a slight edge in accuracy and is reliable as the sunrise.
I wish the Witness mags had flat steel baseplates. Of course I also wish for hi caps! :) Marcus

[nvrquit]

Herk,

The Tan Witness line can be carried Condition 1(cocked & locked) or DA hammer down, safety on or off(the Witness line has a firing pin safety, pretty common these days). The only thing that some people don't like about the Witness is that to go from cocked to DA, the pistol must be decocked manually. With practice this isn't an issue to some, however for others, manually decocking a loaded cocked pistol is a "hair-raising" or nervous experience, regardless of how many times they may have performed it. Once decocked, the Witness is then DA/SA and the safety can be placed in the "On" position, unlike the CZ's which can not.


Marcus,

Had the same problem with my 10mm Compact Witness from the start. EAA corrected that problem after two trips back to them, for that and multiple other issues(read my aforementioned posts on other forums).

S.E. PA, hmmm?!? Do you compete in IDPA? Perhaps some day we'll meet on a range..., small world!

[Marcus]

I don`t but I`ve been meaning to try it. Easton Fish and Game isn`t too far from me. If it ever stops raining long enough for me to get some serious practice in (I don`t want to look like a *total* idiot ;) ) I may get over there to try it out. Marcus

[nvrquit]

Marcus,

Yes, do give the gang at Easton a try. I'm pretty sure that you'll be given a warm reception by Ted and his staff. Don't be offended by the "shepparding" that they give those new to IDPA, as it's done to insure safety for all. Another thing is, I've never seen any range "nazi's" or the like at any IDPA match to date.

I missed today's match, as a best friend's father recently passed this week and he's in from the left coast to take care of matters related. I'm there for him as he was for me years back when my father passed.

IAE, if you get up to Easton some time, drop a line and I'll welcome you to the fold! Shoot safe, shoot well!