Newbie looking for help with .223 ammo


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JimUCD
June 6, 2003, 10:35 AM
Hey guys. I've been reading this forums for a few days now, and have been really impressed with the amount of info you guys exchange on a daily basis. I thought you might be able to help me with an ammo question.

I just bought a friends Remmy 700 LTR in .223. I'm looking for cheap good ammo I can run through this gun until I get a good amount of experience with it. The barrel has a 1:12 twist rate, so I was assuming a 55gr round would do it. What are you suggestions for good cheap ammo I can use for gaining experience with this gun?

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Steve Smith
June 6, 2003, 10:48 AM
Try some 52 and 53 grain Seirra Match Kings instead. ;)

Atticus
June 6, 2003, 10:57 AM
http://www.georgia-arms.com/

Look under "Varmit Ammo"

These guys make some good ammo. Check the site off and on for specials.

762x51
June 6, 2003, 11:20 AM
I'll second Georgia Arms. Try their canned heat match ammo. Good stuff for the money.

ShaiVong
June 6, 2003, 11:36 AM
I would go more twords Wolf, or some other dirt cheap ammo. If all your looking for is practice, put as many rounds through it as you can, and work your shooting style. You can always bring your rifle up to speed later.

Al Thompson
June 6, 2003, 12:20 PM
The bulk .223 at Wal-Mart has gotten some good press here. Not sure where you are, but there should be a Wally world close.

JimUCD
June 6, 2003, 12:36 PM
I would go more twords Wolf, or some other dirt cheap ammo. If all your looking for is practice, put as many rounds through it as you can, and work your shooting style. You can always bring your rifle up to speed later.

What do you mean by, "bring thr rifle up to speed later"?

JimUCD
June 6, 2003, 12:39 PM
I'll second Georgia Arms. Try their canned heat match ammo. Good stuff for the money.

is the G223B here (http://www.georgia-arms.com/canned.htm) what you are refering to?

Al Thompson
June 6, 2003, 12:57 PM
Jim, I *think* what ShiVong means is that until you can shoot up to the level of what your rifle/ammo/scope is capable of delivering, no need for the high dollar ammo. Lots of high power shooters use less accurate ($$) ammo for offhand practice or other less accurate methods of shooting. Steve can expound on this.

That is the Georgia Arms ammo mentioned. Good stuff.

Be aware that every firearm can have it's likes and dislikes. No two are alike, even if they came off the assembly line right after each other.

What sort of scope are you planning to put on the LTR?

762x51
June 6, 2003, 01:10 PM
JimUCD:

Actually I was refering to the G223H, but the G223B would be good as well. The B is a general purpose FMJ where as the H is an accuracy tailored load with Sierra Matchking bullets. You may not be able to tell the difference unless you have been shooting for a while. I don't know your previous experience with bolt actions.

JimUCD
June 6, 2003, 01:13 PM
Al, the scope that will be coupled with the rifle is a Leupold 3.5-10 Vari X-III 30mm.

762x51, this will be my first actual bolt action. I've only used 22 auto loaders before now.

Bobarino
June 6, 2003, 01:16 PM
i could be wrong, but i believe that the PSS/LTR has a 1:9 twist rate. which would allow you to use heavier bullets if you wanted to. maybe up to 73 grains or so. Black Hills blue box ammo is supposed to be pretty good and fairly inexpensive.

Bobby

WalkerTexasRanger
June 6, 2003, 01:25 PM
The PSS and the LTR both have a 1-9 twist, no question, so you would be OK with the heavier bullets. I would recommend the Black Hill blue box ammo, try Georgia Precision, Tommy is the owner and is a great guy. You can call him and get better prices than posted on the internet, normally. He was in a stink with Black Hills, so thats how he works it now....

georgiaprecision.com

Good Shooting!!!!!

Steve Smith
June 6, 2003, 01:26 PM
The following is not intended to contradict my friend Al's comments.

Want me to expound? Ok, but I disagree wholeheartedly. In fact, none of the good shooters I know would go along with that line of thinking. I believe that you should practice with the best ammo you can because you can only point to yourself if you have a problem. If your ammo will ony hold 4 MOA and you can only hold 4 MOA you have an extreme group possibility of 8 MOA...but you wouldn't know that because you don't know how good your ammo is or when it is screwing up because of poor quality. However, if you have ammo that will hold 1 MOA or better, and your hold is still 4 MOA, then your extreme group is now 5 MOA, AND you know that if the shots are outside of a 1 MOA area, its YOUR fault.

A man would not be able to learn to golf if the head of his club were loose or broken.


Excellent marksmanship is not obtained with doodads. The rifle is not the point. The rifle (and ammo) is but a tool to enable you to get better. You will not improve without proper tools. Only after experimentation, study, and critical analysis of your performance, using proper tools, can you begin to improve.


Very few folks can afford to purchase quality ammo at the rate that I consume it. I reload in order to keep my costs down. Short of that, Black Hills makes a good compromise. Short of that even, RedLeg155 has had some good results with the Win white box. Each rifle is a law unto itself.

craigz
June 6, 2003, 01:54 PM
I'm with Steve. You've paid a good amount of money (I presume) for a high quality rifle. You should definitely shoot some of the best ammo you can find, to find out what the gun likes and what it is capable of. Then, if you want to move down a notch or two to save some money, fine, but don't bother with the bottom of the line stuff. You won't learn anything, and you'll shoot out your barrel in the process.

TODD3465
June 6, 2003, 03:14 PM
There's nothing wrong with shooting a few hundred rounds of cheap but reloadable ammo through his gun for practice.
I'm not suggesting to run it through the gun in one sitting.
I've gotten decent results with Rem-UMC in my AR-15. While not as tight a shooter as hand-loaded or commercial varmint ammo it will still do the job when punching paper.

:)

Shalako
June 6, 2003, 05:05 PM
To train in marksmanship, I try to make every shot count as if it was my last. Only match/varmint grade ammo lets me know if I did everything right. If shooting mil-surp, how would I know if my form is concise?

If you just like to make booms and explode targets, cheap ammo is fine.

Sir Galahad
June 7, 2003, 12:42 AM
Now, it depends on if the guy wants to just get the feel of handling the rifle and/or plink. Nothing wrong with Wolf in that respect. Wolf is also not as inaccurate as some think. Out of my CZ 527, it's hits exactly where I want it to. That's with iron sights as far as my eyesight extends.

TODD3465
June 7, 2003, 02:07 AM
If so called "military surplus" ammo can produce groups 2" or under at 100yds with an iron sighted semi-auto carbine(Colt M-4/6400c). Then it is more than adequate to use to study the groups one has shot with it.

JohnKSa
June 7, 2003, 11:44 PM
The 52 grain Match HP Black Hills blue box (remanufactured) .223 shoots 3 shot groups under half an inch in my Thompson Encore (1 in 12 twist).

At around $15 for 50 rounds, that's a pretty good deal in my book.

Cabela's carries it.

Steve Smith
June 8, 2003, 12:00 PM
If so called "military surplus" ammo can produce groups 2" or under at 100yds with an iron sighted semi-auto carbine(Colt M-4/6400c). Then it is more than adequate to use to study the groups one has shot with it


This is not an insult, but that is not accurate enough for me to study my groups.

Feanaro
June 8, 2003, 12:59 PM
As long as the ammo isn't total crap then I prefer the cheaper kind. It has something to do with being unemployed. ;)

Cheaperthandirt.com has Wolf .223 ammo for $2.39 a box, HP or FMJ. From what I have heard it's still fairly accurate ammo. For $119.50 you can get a thousand rounds. That's a lot of practice. I respect that some people use only the best ammo but I can't afford it. And perhaps this poster can't either. Or perhaps he can. It depends on your situation and tastes.

I stay away from surplus though. I hate the cleaning involved and the accuracy is bad.

ShaiVong
June 8, 2003, 03:07 PM
I just shot off 150 rounds of Wolf 40S&W yesterday, and it was more accurate enough for my purposes. It had no problem delivering head shots from ~50yds out of my Glock, although it did have one FTF.. Wouldnt use it for defence.

Nero Steptoe
June 8, 2003, 05:51 PM
I'm with Steve! You spend a lot of bucks on a really nice rifle, then run that steel-cased, filthy Russian crap through it? Doesn't make any sense to me! I don't shoot anything but my own reloads through my rifles, but I'd not hesitate to use GA Arms or Black Hills.

A rifle barrel only has "x" number of shots that are going to be fired through it before it degrades. Why waste any of those shots with ammo made by people with steel teeth?

ChairborneRanger
June 8, 2003, 05:57 PM
www.sportsmansguide.com, with a $5 SG coupon that you can look up on CouponCodes, will get you 1,000 rounds of Wolf .223 delivered to your door---either 55 or 62 grain.

Wolf is kind of dirty to shoot, but, works like a charm. My mil spec chambered Colt eats it like candy.

Relative to mil surplus, if you can find any of the Sout African battlepacks, at a decent price, you will be pleased with it!

Sir Galahad
June 8, 2003, 06:55 PM
"Ammo made by people with steel teeth"??? Any other generalization you'd care to make? Like all Irish being drunks, all Italians being mafiosa or all Polish being stupid? Most of the Russians I've met are decent, hardworking people which is a lot more than I can say for some Americans I see.

Just ran some WOLF .223 through my CZ 527 (a rifle made by more of them dirty ferriners) and it shoots fine.
FYI, Wolf Match Target .22LR ammo is THE best there is in lots of folks minds and you can check RimFire Central.com and see for yourself or come watch me put Wolf MT through my Remington 513-T and I'll prove it.
I think there needs to be a distinction made here. If you reload, fine. If you're shooting paper for tight groups, fine. But for the guy who just wants to plink or even casually target shoot or familiarize himself with a firearm, there is nothing wrong with Wolf. But to say that "Oh, you HAVE to reload and you HAVE to shoot this ammo" as a yardstick for everyone is kind of snobbish. Things like that tend to turn some people off to shooting. I've seen more than one guy out shooting his new Saiga and here comes this guy with a Weatherby or a tricked-out AR, laughing at this guy with a Saiga, insulting his "commie gun" and telling him to get a "real gun", blah, bah, blah. This is where I drew some of the inspiration for my "Gun Shop Goobers" threads over in the General Discussion forum. Not every shooter can afford the high-dollar ammo. Not every shooter NEEDS to buy high-dollar ammo. For me if shooting ceases to be fun, I'll wrap my weapons in cosmo and stash them away and spend more time shooting my bow. I don't care how much money you "save" reloading. Lots of shooters are in apartments and don't have room for it (or their rental/lease agreement forbids it.) Or don't have time for it. Or just don't care to. That's where milsurp and Wolf ammo comes in. If that ain't your cup of tea, fine. But that other people shoot it doesn't make them less of a shooter. They might not be punching a single hole in paper, but the point is, we need all the shooters we can get. Discouraging shooters is the wrong approach. Now, I do believe in spending an extra buck to patronize local gun shops to keep the shooting spots alive by keeping our suppliers alive. But keping the newbie shooter shooting is easiest done if they can pay $2.50 for a box of 20 Wolf .223 rounds and see how much fun shooting is. Later, they may seek to expand by shooting more premium ammo. But the key is to get people shooting and keep them shooting. People that don't have a lot of money to spend need to have access to Saigaa (which only a gun shop will carry, WalMart would never sell one) and Wolf ammo and there is nothing wrong with that. If a guy wnats to shoot Wolf out of his 700 or what-have-you, hey, that's up to him. He may have good reasons for doing so. So, let's not pull the "skeet club snob" song-and-dance on some folks.

JimUCD
June 8, 2003, 08:50 PM
So, I will not foul the bore of my LTR by using Wolf ammo (or alike)? Like I said earlier, I just want cheap ammo to practice with, and to get to know the rifle. After a few hundred rounds, I'll probably move up to some nicer match stuff.

ShaiVong
June 8, 2003, 10:06 PM
Sir Galahad, Ditto. ;)

org
June 8, 2003, 10:41 PM
Can't speak for any surplus but LC, but it's cleaner than Wolf, and in my AR more accurate. Smells better too.

Having said that, I shoot both, and reload too. Depends on what I want to do. Practice is good, no matter what's on the headstamp.

Selfdfenz
June 8, 2003, 11:18 PM
First,
Welcome to THR.

You might just end up reloading one of these days if you don't already BUT it always make sense in my book to know of one or two kinds of commercial ammo you and your rifle shoot well.

For me it's the 40 round boxes of 223 Varmet Win White Box at Walmart. Yes, I can reload something better, but it's cool being able to get 40 rounds of pretty "dang accurate" ammo for 10 bucks and shooting that sometimes too. I like Win brass to reload with my neck sizer after I emply it the first time. Not THAT ends up being some accurate stuff.
When I first got my 223 the first time I went to the range I bet I had a dozen different kinds of commercial and military ammo with me. Somewhere I still have the targets.

One of the great things about the shooting sports is experimentation!

Enjoy the new rifle and take care,
S-

Nero Steptoe
June 9, 2003, 12:03 AM
Why write 50 intelligent, to-the-point words,when you can write 1000 words of meaningless jibberish?? Darned if I know!

Sir Galahad
June 9, 2003, 12:49 AM
I'm sure you're a well of knowledge, Nero.:rolleyes: What with your astute, anthropological observations of ferrous-toothed Central Asians. Where did you learn that tidbit, anyway? The Leakeys?

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