Pistol carbines for HD?


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silent knight
February 24, 2007, 02:38 PM
Anyone own one? Would they be a good HD weapon? What's the advantage of owning a pistol-carbine?

Reason i ask this is because i've been reading and hearing around that the AR/223 is the best way to go as far as home defense.. i'm confused now. The other day on the Personal Defense show they said that the AR is a better choice than a shotgun or handgun for HD.. i've also read this on some magazines.. they said that there's a bigger risk of over-penetrating with a handgun round!? Is this true? Or did my ears mess with me because i could have sworn that's what they said.

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The Deer Hunter
February 24, 2007, 02:48 PM
One might argue that low recoil and having the same ammunition as your handgun(and maybe even the same magazine) is an advantage.

JShirley
February 24, 2007, 02:53 PM
Very high-speed, lightweight expanding ammunition will tend to penetrate less deeply than much heavier, slower ammunition.

telomerase
February 24, 2007, 02:59 PM
they said that there's a bigger risk of over-penetrating with a handgun round!?

Yep. Try it; put two-liter bottles of water in front of a couple of boards. Now shoot one with a 45-grain .223; the bullet will be little pieces in the boards. Then shoot .45 hardball into one, and it will just keep going through everything.

Of course the .223 will blow the :cuss: out of the bottle, you'll get wet within ten feet. But it won't penetrate after... probably one reason why the Viet Nam grunts didn't come to see it as the perfect solution to all tactical problems in the underbrush. But it's pretty cool if you live in a drywall and styrofoam crackerbox.

telomerase
February 24, 2007, 03:03 PM
Anyone own one? Would they be a good HD weapon? What's the advantage of owning a pistol-carbine?

They're quiet; no hearing damage or deafness during a confusing situation. They're less powerful than a .223, but more powerful than a pistol. They may reduce the penetration of the pistol ammo, because it will overexpand, but that might be good for reducing the danger after it goes through walls.

They don't penetrate body armor. Everyone keeps telling me this is OK... I've been seeing cycle punks with body armor since 1975, but maybe I just see smarter punks :confused:

Jenrick
February 24, 2007, 03:06 PM
Check out: http://www.theboxotruth.com/ there's several sets of tests on rifle/pistol ammo versus dry wall. Basically either is gonna over penetrate. Rifle rounds will just have less mass doing so. So regardless make sure of your backstop.

-Jenrick

telomerase
February 24, 2007, 03:07 PM
Anyone own one? Would they be a good HD weapon? What's the advantage of owning a pistol-carbine?

Oh, and you can train newbies/female shooters with them. And some of them are shorter even than M4geries.

All that said, most of the time a real carbine would be better. It would always be better if we could all afford suppressors.

Trempel
February 24, 2007, 03:09 PM
When I still lived in San Francisco, we were facing a possible handgun ban in the city. We couldn't have "normal" AR rifles and Mini-14's 5-round mags didn't inspire confidence. I bought a Ruger PC-9 just to have around in case I had to send my SIG out of town. PC9 uses the same mags as Ruger pistols and those are easy to find. I also found out that with a pistol caliber carbine, I could hit targets with much more percision than with a pistol. Being shoulder fired and with a longer sight radius, it seriously extends the envelope of a 9mm round. At my old apartment distances, I could place a bullet with laser like accuracy. At longer distances, it also shined. I could reliably hit silhouette targets out to 75+ yards. Other benefits are that 9mm ammo is cheaper to practice with and you could shoot it at indoor ranges that don't allow rifle ammo.

After moving to a free state, I switched to a 5.56 AR carbine for HD. I think it's a more capable round at short range and I like the pistol grip and the extra capacity. I still wouldn't feel under gunned with a 9mm carbine.

telomerase
February 24, 2007, 03:11 PM
Basically either is gonna over penetrate. Rifle rounds will just have less mass doing so. So regardless make sure of your backstop.

Good advice, and planning your possible shot angles is a good idea. But it's better to have a 45-grain .223 wobbling sidewise into the neighbor's wall instead of a 230-grain .45.

Shadan7
February 24, 2007, 03:41 PM
I've got a Kel-Tec Sub2000 (http://www.kel-tec.com/sub2000.html), not so much as a HD weapon, but as something tucked away that's got more power, range, and accuracy than a pistol - while still being a lot easier to handle than any of my 'real' long guns. Put in a 33-round Glock mag, and I can be sure of having sufficient ammo for almost anything...

Plus it folds up into a briefcase. And I paid $315 for it new. :)

So, yeah, they're OK for HD. Short, with a sling you can use it single handed if need be. Is it ideal? That's your decision.

7

Trempel
February 24, 2007, 03:52 PM
A note on the 9mm carbine "having more power". I'm no ballistic expert, but I doubt that a 9mm case has enough poweder capacity to take advantage of a longer barrel. There're special loads for sub-guns that are hotter and maybe use different powders to make the 9mm gain velocity out of a longer barrel, but regular pistol rounds would probably perform about the same. Maybe they gain 50fps, but is that really enough to make a difference?
Now, certain .357 Magnum or .44 Magnum rounds out of lever guns gain some substantial velocity. I think the main advantage of a 9mm carbine over a 9mm pistol is controlability from a steadier platform and a longer sight radius, which gives 9mm more range, but it doesn't turn it into a true rifle round.

rustymaggot
February 24, 2007, 03:55 PM
m1 carbine is the king of pistol caliber carbines.

Don't Tread On Me
February 24, 2007, 03:58 PM
In order to save hundreds of words, and pages of debate or searching dozens of long threads; here is the truth:


Anything which is not a penetration threat, or is a low penetration threat to interior walls etc is not sufficient for self defense as the terminal performance is unacceptable according to most standards (most being LE standards).

Anything that is sufficient for self defense, which exhibits the proper amount of penetration and terminal performance against a threat is going to be a penetration danger through walls etc.


In short, you can't have your cake and eat it.



As for weapons. The AR-15 is superior to a shotgun or pistol for a number of reasons. An AK is even better than the AR for a variety of reasons.


Some people argue that police use X bullet and they should too. All I can say to that is that a person determining self defense needs should not try and mimic the police or the military, as they have FULL AUTO rifles and part of the effectiveness equation/solution for them takes that into consideration. If you can't get exactly what they get, or fight in the numbers they do, or use their tactics - you shouldn't necessarily choose the same tools. Everything works together as a system.

TargetTerror
February 24, 2007, 03:59 PM
I recall reading an article not too long ago in a magazine that looked at some of the new 9mm uppers for ARs. I was very surprised by the velocity numbers they indicated - they were much lower than I would have suspected.

As they said in the article, "a 9mm round is still a pistol round, even out of a rifle." You gain control and aiming precision, not stopping power with a carbine.

Shadan7
February 24, 2007, 05:15 PM
Trempel, you're right - the 9mm round doesn't get as much benefit from a short rifle barrel as a true rifle round would. But I get better performance out of the carbine than the 2.9" barrel on my pocket pistol...

And TT, yeah, don't mistake a pistol cartidge for a rifle round. BIG difference.

7

MMcfpd
February 24, 2007, 07:02 PM
While I don't think I'd want to shoot a lot of $1.60/round ammo for practice, I don't mind spending a little on my HD load.

So what do y'all think of the MagSafe .45 ACP that comes in 96 and 68 grain? They don't give data for carbines, but the pistol data shows muzzle velocities and muzzle energy of about twice that of a 230 gr. .45 round.

grendelbane
February 24, 2007, 07:19 PM
So what do y'all think of the MagSafe .45 ACP that comes in 96 and 68 grain? They don't give data for carbines, but the pistol data shows muzzle velocities and muzzle energy of about twice that of a 230 gr. .45 round.

I don't care for them in a pistol, and even less so in a carbine. In my .45 CavOly I like the 230 grain JHPs quite well. In spite of what some people state, the 16" barrel does produce a useful increase in velocity.

AK103K
February 24, 2007, 08:59 PM
9mm +P+ in bursts from a short, handy little gun, whats not to like? :)

I never understood the worry of over penetration. I always thought it was a good thing. Still do.

Clipper
February 25, 2007, 01:00 AM
I load 115gr silvertip HPs in my Hi-Point carbine for HD... A reflex sight and 4-cell, touch switch tac light make a handy, accurate package.

geekWithA.45
February 25, 2007, 01:08 AM
What's that old saying? Any man with a rifle can outshoot any man with a handgun?

From my training days, the targeting priorities were always "left to right, front to back, but get the guys with the long guns first".

Srigs
February 25, 2007, 02:54 AM
I use a Hi Point Carbine 4095 (40 S&W) with a light on the front.

Works good and very accurate.

M2 Carbine
February 25, 2007, 11:27 AM
It's more important that you are proficient, than what gun you use.

A pistol, Carbine, shotgun or short rifle will all work for HD but only if you can use them effectively.

A pistol Caliber Carbine will do the job just fine for HD, if you do your job.

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