Sad state of pistol caliber carbine selection


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braindead0
June 6, 2003, 03:26 PM
So I've been trying to figure out what pistol caliber carbine to get, and having one heck of a time. The choices seem to be mostly cheap junk (hi-point, no offense to those that like them) or way expensive (a grand is a bit much methinks).

The other options are of unknown quality, and I can't get my hands on one (or even see them). Stuff like Kel-tec, Cobray, Feather, soon to hopefully exist CX4... nobody's got 'em. Don't care much for the AR style, wife has problems with the controls...

Can't get an upper for my Taurus 92 (Until next year according to Mech-tech), don't want a 1911 or a Glock...

I stopped at a local shop just to see (off hand) what they might have this week. You could get a hi-point, or a USC....or a Thompson... Not much selection there.

It's like there's this whole void in the $300 - $600 price range that needs to be filled with quality products that are properly marketed and available.

Oh well, I'm holding off.. I need a carbine that both my wife and I can shoot (or I'll be buying two, and that's money that could be spent on more handguns ;-).. so it's important that we both get to try it out.

I just thought it was odd the huge gap in that stores (and every store I've been to around hereabouts) inventory.... Anybody got an engineering degree? :D

perhaps I'm just too darned picky.

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Destructo6
June 6, 2003, 03:44 PM
Have you thought about a HK-94 clone? InvestmentGradeFirearms was building up and ironing out SW5s for about $250 a build. Basically, you send him the parts you want from FAC or SW and he'll put them together. Out the door, it'll probably be $1200, which is a bit over your target.

Z_Infidel
June 6, 2003, 03:44 PM
Let's see...

Winchester
Marlin
Rossi

...oh, you mean you didn't want a lever gun? :D

braindead0
June 6, 2003, 03:52 PM
Hey, don't think I haven't been tempted to go with a lever gun. But I'm really trying to find something that both me and the wife can use effectively. She can't handle lever actions very well, and doesn't like 'em anyway.

rock jock
June 6, 2003, 04:19 PM
braindead,

I know exactly what you're talking about. I complained about this last year and ended up buying a RRA 9mm upper for my AR. Now I'm not sure if I did the right thing or not.

braindead0
June 6, 2003, 04:25 PM
I don't own an AR or other compatible rifle, so the upper isn't a choice. But it seems to me that combination tends to be a bit on the heavy side... At least every AR style 9mm conversion I've fired (we've got a lot in the club) has been oddly balanced and a bit heavy.

When you consider the Feather Rav-9MM weight 5 pounds....

Devonai
June 6, 2003, 04:29 PM
If matching the caliber with your Taurus isn't an issue, why not go with a M1 Carbine? The .30 Carbine cartridge has more oomph than a .357 and you can get pre-ban mags for a song. Replacement parts are plentiful and there are accessories out the yang.

braindead0
June 6, 2003, 04:31 PM
The .30 Carbine cartridge has more oomph than a .357

Not really, they are about the same with 110gr bullets. Much less flexibility with the .30 carbine. Not that I'm dissing it, just pointing out it doesn't have more oomph.

Where do you buy an M1 carbine for a reasonable price? I've seen service grade for $1000, might as well buy a USC at that point.

I remember years ago (probably 20 years at least), cases and cases of unissued M1's at a gun show, still covered in cosmo. He was selling them for $125 each.. I should have bought all of them!

Shooter973
June 6, 2003, 04:44 PM
What about the Ruger carbines, 9mm, 40S&W, or even 44mag. ? I have several of the Winchester pistol cal carbines and a couple of the Ruger 44's and like them all. I also have a Vollinteer(sic) Arms 45acp that is a cheap knock-off of the Thompsons and it works very well with Round nose ammo. :)

Z_Infidel
June 6, 2003, 04:45 PM
I think if I were in your position I'd wait for the CX4. I'm betting it will be a fine gun for its purposes. I've heard availability timeframes of June and September, but I have no idea if either is accurate. Not advice, mind you -- just an opinion.

Plus, since I have to wait for my Winchester .357 I think you should have to wait, too! :D

braindead0
June 6, 2003, 05:07 PM
The PC9 is a possible option, but I don't think I could adjust the stock much.

And yeah, as this point the CX4 seems to be the only thing that fits the bill.. But I doubt I'll buy one until it's been wrung out to dry for a while.

Kobun
June 6, 2003, 05:59 PM
Here are some other choices.
Probably passes your $1000 limit, but choices non the less.

http://www.remtek.com/arms/steyr/aug/aug9/aug9mm.gif
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=260826

K.

22x9
June 6, 2003, 07:47 PM
There's always the internet. That's how I got my Feather. Had it sent to my local FFL and tada, it was in my hands with a couple days.

Whereas I prefer to to go the local gunshops, sometimes you have to shop globally.

Devonai
June 6, 2003, 08:15 PM
Not really, they are about the same with 110gr bullets.

Perhaps, but by the time you end up outfitting yourself with a .357 Sig carbine you've gone above your price limit.

USGuns
June 6, 2003, 08:23 PM
Feather Rav-9MM:
http://www.featherusa.com/page3.html
Kel-Tec Sub2000:
http://www.kel-tec.com/prod03.htm
Ruger PC:
http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdResults?function=famid&famid=20

natedog
June 6, 2003, 08:23 PM
LIES! ALL LIES! It's time to dispell the thoughts that the .357 Magnum is more powerful than the .30 Carbine. Here is the information I have gathered:

Commercial Remington Express:


1990 FPS
110 grain soft point =
967 fp energy at the muzzle, or 600 fpe at 100 yards

Cor-bon .357 Magnum:

1265 FPS
180 grain BCSP =
640 FPE at the muzzle

.30 Carbine has 600 fpe at 100 yards, while the .357 Magnum has 640 fpe AT THE MUZZLE!

Mannlicher
June 6, 2003, 08:38 PM
Other than as toys, or play guns, there is no justification for pistol caliber carbines in the first place.

They are neither fish, nor fowl

Andrew Wyatt
June 6, 2003, 08:46 PM
the pistol caliber carbine is the ideal truck gun for urban work. why?

because it takes the same magazines as your ccw piece.


you can leave it in your car, and have it ready to go almost instantly by loading it with your relaod magazine. (you do carry a reload magazine, right?)

Devonai
June 6, 2003, 09:43 PM
.30 Carbine has 600 fpe at 100 yards, while the .357 Magnum has 640 fpe AT THE MUZZLE!

Ah, but what was the barrel length of this test? I'm betting it was nowhere near 18".

I, too sought to do a side-by-side comparison, but I could not conform my data to fit a control group, i.e. I couldn't find any data on the 110 grain .357 as fired from a carbine. Jack another 30% velocity increase onto that and then we can talk, but that's only a very general comparison of pistol vs rifle velocities.

braindead0
June 6, 2003, 10:05 PM
I've found several published 110gr .357 loads that exceed 2000fps, and all of them (except the wimpiest) are in the mid 1900's..

There are also 125gr 1700fps loads.. out of a 6" barell.

My main problem with Feather is that I can't get my hands on one.. I know of nobody that has first hand knowledge (expect a post on another thread, but he got his much cheaper than the best price I can find).

From what I can tell, the Kel-tec sub 2000 is no better than a hi-point at twice the price.. doesn't make any sense to buy a gun that you have to 'fluff and buff' in order to have it function properly.

The Ruger PC9 seems to be the only reasonably priced quality pistol caliber carbine in existance.. But the pull is too long for my wife.

Perhaps I'm looking for the carbine that doesn't exist.:rolleyes:

iamkris
June 6, 2003, 10:07 PM
Braindead0

I'm having the same problems but I'm looking for a 45 ACP. I don't want to spend more than about $500. Having the same caliber in a carbine and pistol rocks!

What caliber are you looking for? I'm assuming 9mm since you talked about a Mech Tech upper for your Taurus 92. If so, you have lots of choices available to you in that price range. Marlin Camp 9 can be had for under $400. Kel Tec and Feather RAV can be had for another $250 on top of that. Ruger PC9 too. In the $1000 range include the HKs.

I personally just ordered a Mech Tech for my 1911 frame. Can't find any other 45 carbines for a reasonable price. Even Camp 45s are going for over $500.

amprecon
June 6, 2003, 10:09 PM
Well, unless it has to be a pistol caliber carbine, I'd recommend an SKS, Mini-14, Mini-30, AK-47, Ruger PC series or even the .30 carbine.

I personally feel that if your going to have a carbine length gun why not have it in a more potent caliber unless there are other considerations such as over penetration in close-quarters or noise. Recoil is not even really a consideration in calibers built for carbines.

benEzra
June 6, 2003, 11:59 PM
A 40-gr .223 JHP penetrates less (both in gelatin and in wallboard) than a 125-gr .357 JHP or a 115-gr 9mm JHP. So overpenetration isn't an issue. Good point about noise, though.

jimbo
June 7, 2003, 06:57 AM
braindead makes an excellent point. There is a huge variety of firearms available in every category except pistol-caliber carbines. Full-size auto HG, revovler, snubbie, sub-compact, black rifles, bolt-action and lever. But the number of pistol-caliber carbines (not including levers) is less than 6 I think.

I guess there is light demand for them or gun manufacturers would have responded to the high demand. Maybe the Beretta Storm will change that. But right now, unless you get a lever gun, you have very few choices.

Good point, braindead.

braindead0
June 7, 2003, 07:43 AM
I guess my main issue is that I can't get my hands on anything in the 'reasonable' range... Seems gun stores just want to carry the bottom and top ends..

Of course, I'll be if I put a HK USC in my wifey's hands.. she'll fall in love and then I can justify spending $1000 ;-)

I wouldn't mind .45ACP.. then I have a reason to buy a .45 ;-)

Delmar
June 7, 2003, 08:21 AM
Well, so long as we're all a-wishin, I wish for an M-1 carbine styled rimless 454 Casull with 15 shot magazines!

mrstang01
June 7, 2003, 09:31 PM
iamkris, you can find Camp .45's for about $350-425, I see them on Gunbroker and AuctionArms for that all the time. I hunted fora while before I found mine.

Michael

Tommy Gunn
June 9, 2003, 02:54 AM
Why not a Thompsen?

It would go well with a 1911 pistol.

iamkris
June 9, 2003, 07:40 AM
mrstang01

Yep, probably just not looking in the right places. The last 3 I've bid on have gone for $450+.

The Camp 9's seem to go for less than 350.

I'll try the Mech Tech and see how she goes. I suppose I will get tired of not having a dedicated lower.

swingcatt
June 9, 2003, 07:56 AM
I do not own one of the Kel Tec rifles, but I got to shoot one at the range this weekend for the first time. I was ver impressed with it. It had a very tight construction and was very accurate out to about 50 yards (as far as we shot that day). I am not aware of any F&B job that was performed on the rifle prior to my shooting. The functioning seemed well thought to me and the size of it was impressive! It is so small! Then when you fold it up, it gets even smaller! Wow!


I have been thinking about one of the Ruger PC-9s but shooting the Kel Tec might have changed my mind. "Might" mind you because Ruger P-series Standard & Extended capacity mags are still cheaper than any other.

SC

braindead0
June 9, 2003, 09:07 AM
I went and picked up an 870 instead... and the wife made me buy her a new Glock 17....

Kharn
June 9, 2003, 09:41 AM
Do you have an AR15 lower laying around? Olympic Arms, Colt and Rock River all make 9mm uppers, Olympic uses cheap Sten mags while Rock River and Colt use Uzi mags. I believe Olympic and Colt also make the conversions in .45, but I dont know what magazines they use.

Kharn

another48hrs
June 9, 2003, 07:26 PM
Here's another option if anyone is interested. It's a FAL that is converted to shoot 45acp.

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=76896&highlight=fnc

Hand_Rifle_Guy
June 14, 2003, 12:00 PM
How about a Colt Lightning pump rifle replica? They're supposed to be coming out about now-ish.

Cowboy calibers, very slick action with a short FAST stroke, slam-fire capable, (The originals are, at any rate.) lightish and handy like a Winchester 94, holds a bunch of ammo, (13-14 typ.) the only problems will be finding them, and affording a price expected to run $800 or so.

Navy Arms and someone else are makin' 'em.

esldude
June 14, 2003, 01:08 PM
Well I have a Keltec Sub2000 and Ruger PC9.

Both have been flawless in functioning.

I think the Keltec is a non-starter for your wife. The bolt
to put one in the chamber is too stiff.

Ruger PC9 is a nice piece. You said the pull was too much
for your wife. I would think you might be able to saw off
the synthetic stock. And put another butt pad on it. Otherwise
all controls are fairly easy to operate. No real problems with
it I see. Is pretty well made and works. Well I take that back.
I too dislike the mag hanging out in the open. Wish it were
in the grip like the Keltec.

The CX4 looks nice and probably will be. But will also be
pretty expensive. Still more carbine choices will be nice.

The great thing about a carbine is the relatively small size
compared to a full rifle. Low recoil, and in defensive use
they are capable of being used very accurately and very
quickly. Much quicker and more accurately than a pistol.

355sigfan
June 15, 2003, 02:38 AM
Why?
Pistol caliber carbines are about useless. The 223 is better for defence and is more fun to shoot. The 223 has less repeat less risk of overpenetration in homes and people. The 223 has better stopping power. Pistol caliber carbines are extreemly underpowered rifles or oversized handguns depending on how you look at it.
PAT

russlate
June 15, 2003, 06:58 AM
Pistol caliber carbines have their uses, from 30 carbine, 9mm, 357, 40, 45, and 44 mag. Be they semi or lever.

They are light, can be shot more accurately, more easily, and generally show a significant boost in the cartridges performance compared to the pistols. best of all, they can, depending on design, be fitted into a smaller case. they can extend the fight out to 50 to 100 yards.

Pistol in close. Shotgun 15 to 40 yards. Pistol caliber carbines out to 100. Assault Rifles ( intermediate power ) 200 to 300. Full power battle rifles to 300 yards and more.

Useless? Take a 357 or 44 lever action of even a 30-30 or 35 Rem to New York or Chicago, where handguns are Verboten. Call the founder of practical pistolcraft, Jeff Cooper.

But the you've made your mind up. I won't bother you any longer.

Rottweiler
June 15, 2003, 08:14 AM
Marlin, If you're listening.... Bring back the camp carbine...and while you're at it...think .40S&W and .357 SIG

Handy
June 15, 2003, 12:29 PM
How about a rebarreled Mauser C96 (Broomhandle) with a stock?

esldude
June 15, 2003, 01:29 PM
I am not sure I believe the less over penetration stuff.
Having seen .223 blow cleanly through 1/4 inch steel plate
seems unlikely that sheetrock and plywood will stop it.
Yes, I know where the idea comes from I just don't believe it.

Just one widely known example: ever seen the taped footage
at Waco. Agents armed with .223 and residents armed with
.223. Agent climbs ladder goes in window, bullet holes start
appearing in the siding of the structure. Other testimony
is some agents were hit when Mini14's were fired through the
subfloor by the stairwell.

Also have seen target stands made of 1x2 wood shot to heck
by .223 with no evidence they were breaking up. So 1 inch
wood lets it through, but sheetrock doesn't? I don't buy it.

Finally indoors a .223 is lots louder than a pistol caliber in a
long barrel.

Pistol caliber carbines have their pros and cons like anything for
defensive use. The ultimate would be a hand sized weapon
with no noise, no recoil, and guaranteed one shot stopping
while aiming itself. Don't know of such a device being commongly
available yet.

You make your choices and take your chances.

PAshooter
June 15, 2003, 03:00 PM
Gotta cast my vote for the Camp9. Bought mine (used of course - there seem to be plenty of nice ones out there in the $300 range) on a whim. Seemed like it might make a handy short range back yard "critter gitter," ammo is plenty cheap, and I liked the fact that it shared magazines with my Smith 59-series. It's also nice to be able to play (I mean practice) year round at my indoor range.

Attached results were fired off-hand with the factory iron sights and my "almost 50 year old eyes" at 25 yards at my pistol range (first time out with the gun). Ten shot group BTW. I was very pleased... and the gun is definitely a keeper.

355sigfan
June 15, 2003, 06:38 PM
They are light, can be shot more accurately, more easily, and generally show a significant boost in the cartridges performance compared to the pistols. best of all, they can, depending on design, be fitted into a smaller case. they can extend the fight out to 50 to 100 yards.

END
Yes they are better than a pistol. WOW.

SNIP
Pistol in close. Shotgun 15 to 40 yards. Pistol caliber carbines out to 100. Assault Rifles ( intermediate power ) 200 to 300. Full power battle rifles to 300 yards and more.
END

Pistols are only for times when you can't carry a rifle. 223 carbines and shot guns work better in close than a pistol. 223 carbines work from 0 yards to 300 yards in the average shooters hands. Battle rifles are for defeating harder targets and for more range.

SNIP
Useless? Take a 357 or 44 lever action of even a 30-30 or 35 Rem to New York or Chicago, where handguns are Verboten. Call the founder of practical pistolcraft, Jeff Cooper.
END

In places that ban handguns and semi auto rifles give me a good 12 gauge pump shotgun over any pea shooter. Yes my mind is made up. But I did not come on the decision without thought.
PAT

355sigfan
June 15, 2003, 06:42 PM
On the penetration stuff. Here is a credible source the numbers don't lie.

The Call-Out Bag
by Gunsite Training Center Staff
A Comparison of .223 Penetration vs. Handgun CalibersThe .223 shoulder-fired weapon systems (e.g., AUG, CAR) have received some recent interest as indoor tactical weapons for special operations teams. increased power, longer effective distances, and greater tactical flexibility have been cited as positive factors of the .223 systems over 9me SMG-type weapon systems. Other authors (Fackler, et all) have postulated greater capa-bility for tissue damage and incapacitation of the .223 rifle cartridge over the 9mm projectile fired from handguns or SMGs. Negative considerations for the indoor use of the .223 weapon systems focus on over-penetration of projectiles and possible subsequent liability. Our effort was made to compare the penetration characteristics of various .223 bullets to various handgun bullets fired into test barriers representing indoor and outdoor building walls. We felt that the following test might mimic shots fired from inside a building, through the internal rooms, out the exterior wall, and into another similar building nearby. A comparison of wall penetration effects by a variety of handgun calibers versus the effects of .223 FMJ ball, .223 SP, and .223 HP, under these same conditions, was expected to substantiate other findings reported or provide new information to those interested in this area of ballistics. Two interior test walls were constructed using a wood 2x4 frame with standard drywall board attached to both sides. Two exterior test walls were made using wooden frames with drywall board attached to one side and exterior grade T1-11 wooden siding attached on the other (exterior) side. R-19 fiberglass insulation batting (Dow Coming) was stapled inside the two exterior test wails. To maintain test medium consistency, no wooden cross beams, electrical fixtures, conduits, or electrical wiring were placed in any of the test walls. The test walls were placed in the following sequence to mimic shots fired from. inside a building, through two internal rooms, out the building, and into another similarly constructed building: A. Interior wall #1 was placed 8 feet from the shooting position. B. Interior wail #2 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wall #1. C. Exterior wall #1 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wail #2. (Exteri-or side facing away from the shooter.) D. Exterior wall #2 was placed 15 feet beyond exterior wall #1. (Exterior side facing toward the shooter.) All calibers tested were fired from a position 8 feet in front of interior wall #l, so the bullet trajectory would travel in sequence through each of the succeeding test walls. Each caliber tested was chronographed and all firing results were videotaped for archive files. The following results were obtained: 1. All handgun calibers exited exterior wall #1. This means they exited the "house" after passing through two interior "rooms," then entered another "house" to impact into the berm. The handgun caliber which demonstrated the least penetration was .22 LR Lightning. 2. The only calibers which did NOT exit the "house" were .223 (5.56) soft point and hollow point loaded bullets. 3. All projectiles demonstrated directional changes in their trajectory after passing through the first interior wall. The greatest directional changes (10 inches+ yaw) were shown by 9mm and .40 S&W projectiles. 4. Directional changes in bullet trajectory appeared to increase in magnitude with each test wall the projectile passed through. The penetration characteristics of projectiles have long been believed to be primarily determined by a relationship of bullet mass, bullet shape, bullet velocity, and bullet construction. The penetration differences of .223 soft point and hollow point projectiles versus the effects from .223 full metal jacket may be due to differences in bullet construction. The differential effects on penetration due to bullet construction shown with the .223 are different and appear greater in magnitude than those encountered when handgun bullet construction is modified. Since .223 projectile velocities are threefold greater than those of handgun projectiles, the increased magnitude of bullet velocity might account for the differences in bullet trajectory and penetration distance. The deviated trajectory of hollow point handgun projectiles was also greater than the deviation found with full metal jacketed handgun bullets; again, possibly due to contact point deformation. The preceding study more than ever identifies the need for a personal emphasis of marksmanship and tactical fundamentals. The shooter is responsible for the bullets that go downrange. Practice, be aware, manage your trigger, and watch your front sight! Many thanks to Jack Furr, Ron Benson, Pete Wright, and Seth NadeI, U.S. Customs, for conducting and reporting this test.
.22 LR 40 gr Lightning 899 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
9mm 147gr Win JHP 948 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
9mm 147 gr Win JHP 1004 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.40 S&W 180 gr FMJ 941 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.40 S&W 180 gr Black Talon JHP 981 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.45 ACP 230 gr Win FMJ ball 867 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
.45 ACP 230 gr HydraShok JHP 851 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Fed FMJ ball 2956 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Rem SP 3019 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Fed JHP 3012 fps Captured in exterior wall #2





ALL OF THE INFORMATION IN THIS ARTICLE IS BASED UPON THE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE OF INDIVIDUALS WHO MAY BE USING SPECIAL TOOLS, PRODUCTS, EQUIPMENT AND COMPONENTS UNDER PARTICULAR CONDITIONS AND CIRCUMSTANCES, SOME OR ALL OF WHICH MAY NOT BE REPORTED, NOR OTHERWISE VERIFIED IN THIS ARTICLE. NOTHING HEREIN IS INTENDED TO CONSTITUTE A MANUAL FOR THE USE OF ANY PRODUCT OR THE CARRYING OUT OF ANY PROCEDURE OR PROCESS. THE WRITERS, EDITORS, AND PUBLISHERS OF THIS ARTICLE ACCEPT NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY LIABILITY, INJURIES OR DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY PERSON’S ATTEMPT TO RELY UPON ANY INFORMATION CONTAINED HEREIN.
.223/5.56 Penetration Tests vs.
.40 S&W and 12 ga. Slug
Overview The research on the penetration of .223 ammunition has been completed. In an effort to make research more meaningful, testing consisted of handgun and shotgun ammunition in the same testing medium. The final results were that the .223 demonstrated less penetration capability than the 12 gauge slug and the .40S&W [handgun round]. Testing Medium Type 250A Ordnance Gelatin was cast into blocks, 6"x6"x16". The process used is that which is recommended by Col. M. Fackler, Director of the US Army Wound Ballistics Laboratory. This is a 10% mixture, 1Kg of gelatin to 9000ml of H2O. This type of gelatin accurately simulates human body tissue in terms of bullet penetration. A small piece of wall was constructed to duplicate the standard exterior walls found in [the Pacific Northwest] area. This piece of wall was sheeted with ½" wafer board, covered with a 2nd piece of ½" wafer board to simulate siding. This wall was built using a 2x4 frame and finished on the inside with ½" sheet rock. The interior [of the wall] was lined with fiberglass insulation. Weapons Used CAR-15, cal .223 Rem./5.56x45mm with a 16" barrel. Glock M22, cal .40S&W. Remington 870, 12 ga. Ammunition Used Federal .223 Remington, 55 grain HP. Winchester .40S&W, 180 grain HP. Federal 12 ga., 2 ¾", rifled slug. Procedure All rounds were fired from a distance of 12 feet. After each round was fired, its penetration was recorded and bullet performance noted. After a bullet was fired into the [bare] gelatin, another bullet of the same type was fired through the section of wall and into the gelatin. This was done in order to determine its penetration potential in the event a stray round were to hit the wall of a building. Results Caliber Testing medium Penetration Condition of bullet
.223 Rem. gelatin only 9.5" two pieces
.223 Rem. wall & gelatin 5.5" * fragmented
.40S&W gelatin only 13.5" mushroomed
.40S&W wall & gelatin 22" * no deformation
.40S&W wall & gelatin 22" * no deformation
.40S&W* wall & gelatin 19.5" * slight deformation
12 ga. wall & gelatin 27.5" mushroomed
* these measurements do not include penetration of the 6" wall. * CCI Gold Dot. Summary The 55 grain HP .223 has less penetration than any of the other ammunition tested. Based on the results of this testing, there appears to be no basis for concern regarding the overpenetration of the .223 [HP] round. In fact, it seems even safer in this regard than .40 S&W handgun ammunition. The hollow point cavity in the .40S&W round filled with material when shot through the wall. This caused [these bullets] to fail to expand when they entered the gelatin. As a result, they penetrated 8.5" farther than when shot directly into the gelatin. When the .223 [HP] was shot through he wall it began to fragment and as a result penetrated the gelatin only 5.5". Because the .223 [HP] begins to break up on impact, it has less potential for damage or injury than the 12 ga. in the event of a ricochet. The .223 [HP] is obviously safer in an urban environment than the 12 ga. with slugs or buckshot. Additional testing conducted proved that the .223 would penetrate a car door or glass. The .223 rounds fired into windshields began to break up after entering the glass and did not retain much energy. In most cases these rounds split in two. ALL OF THE INFORMATION IN THIS ARTICLE IS BASED UPON THE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE OF INDIVIDUALS WHO MAY BE USING SPECIAL TOOLS, PRODUCTS, EQUIPMENT AND COMPONENTS UNDER PARTICULAR CONDITIONS AND CIRCUMSTANCES, SOME OR ALL OF WHICH MAY NOT BE REPORTED, NOR OTHERWISE VERIFIED IN THIS ARTICLE. NOTHING HEREIN IS INTENDED TO CONSTITUTE A MANUAL FOR THE USE OF ANY PRODUCT OR THE CARRYING OUT OF ANY PROCEDURE OR PROCESS. THE WRITERS, EDITORS, AND PUBLISHERS OF THIS ARTICLE ACCEPT NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY LIABILITY, INJURIES OR DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY PERSON’S ATTEMPT TO RELY UPON ANY INFORMATION CONTAINED HEREIN.

esldude
June 15, 2003, 07:31 PM
355sigfan,

Two problems with the test you posted.

The listed result after the first part show all bullets captured
or exited 2nd exterior wall. The text states one of the .223
didn't exit the house. But it isn't listed in the results. I see
no big difference there.

2nd problem, 2nd part, the pistol bullets were fired from
pistols. Fired from carbines they would have more velocity.
Which would make the HP's at least open more and penetrate
less. Whether or not that is enough to also make them expand
after passing through a wall and getting the HP cavity plugged
I do not know. I would guess not, but the main point is the
test for complete pertinence should include pistol round fired
from longer barrels.

Interesting result though for sure.

George Hill
June 15, 2003, 09:08 PM
Marlin camp carbines can still be found for reasonable prices.

And you forgot the Uzi... which is mainly a Carbine these days.

Tommy Gunn
June 15, 2003, 10:46 PM
http://tommygun.com/images/1927A1.gif (http://tommygun.com/)


The perfect mate for a 1911 pistol! :cool:

Sylvilagus Aquaticus
June 15, 2003, 11:13 PM
I'll throw in agreement on the Marlin camp Carbines, particularly the .45. I've had the pleasure of firming both the 9 and 45 flavors; never had a failure or problem, nor have the owners of said carbines. Yes, it'd be nice if they would reintroduce them in say, .40SW, 10mm or .357SiG....but what they had was fine, really.

Uzi's are pricey for what it is, really, and I've seen some fun little conversions on M1 carbines to .50AE and .45 Win Mag.

Regards,
Rabbit.

George Hill
June 16, 2003, 12:54 PM
Tommy Gunn - nice 25 pound carbine there...

Ledbetter
June 16, 2003, 01:44 PM
I bought mine for $350. Walked into one of my two favorite gunshops one day and bought it then and there. Being familiar with the gun, would I pay $500 for one if I didn't have this one? Probably so.

Unless some other manufacturer steps up to the plate with a similar weapon using 1911 mags.

ChairborneRanger
June 16, 2003, 02:42 PM
The M1 Carbine, in addition is being cute to look at and having a great manufacturing 'history', is an absolute joy to shoot and collect. The .30 Carbine cartridge is fine as a defensive round, however, in my view the .223/5.56 is a much better all-around cartridge----much more available, much better priced, many more variations available----if someone is going to buy only one or the other, it is certainly hard to beat an AR15-A2 in .223 as an all-purpose, all-around rifle.

Paniolo808
June 16, 2003, 08:47 PM
How come nobody has mentioned the old ruger 44.mag carbine?
That gun is on a steady rotation behind the seat of my truck along with an old m1 carbine and a marlin 30-30. I have the old style with the tubular non detachable mag but i love that gun. I havent had one dog or pig escape from its wrath yet. Small, light and fairly cheap to shoot. Its a winner in my book. Thanks!

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