The Roommate did something dumb today!


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vis--vis
February 27, 2007, 04:43 PM
The background of this is I decided to open carry my Glock today.

I was in the doorway to the Kitchen talking to my roommate Charles as he was doing the dishes today. As we were talking someone started grabbing hard at my gun and I jumped into threat mode. My arm clamped down in order to retain the gun and I moved to put him in front of me. It was my other roommate being 'funny.' When I did that he let go and I just said to him as seriously as I could, "Do you want to die?!"

I did not appreciate that and I am pretty sure he now knows that not only is that stupid and not safe, but that I could have shot him or he could have shot me! :banghead:

Anyone ever done that to you?

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ShackleMeNot
February 27, 2007, 04:45 PM
I'm not asking to be an ass but how old are you?

CountGlockula
February 27, 2007, 04:47 PM
Never happened to me but: Horseplaying (or playing grab arse) and guns don't mix.

GunNut
February 27, 2007, 04:52 PM
He won't do that again.:D

I'd watch who you open carry around, friends think it is funny to touch your stuff.

Steve

Geno
February 27, 2007, 04:53 PM
Even in my own home, I try to keep my pistols covered 24/7. Why? Several reasons. First, the don't potentially intimidate family. Also, others (guests) are unaware. Unfortunately, roommates will be roommates. People mature at different rates, and he was probably simply being light-hearted. For me, I feel that what people cannot see, they are not inclined to grab. Glad nothing went too far out of line. Bullets errantly-fired are a lot like words carelessly-spoken...once they depart the point of origin, they can't be put back. Glad everyones okay.

exar
February 27, 2007, 04:54 PM
Not to me personally, but I have heard that same scenario repeated countless times. I think it might possibly be the #1 "prank" to pull on someone who has a gun showing. Why? Anyone with reason and logic will never know. This is a real problem for anyone, but especially police. Police deal with many retards on a daily basis.

vis--vis
February 27, 2007, 05:02 PM
I'm not asking to be an ass but how old are you?

I am 23. Why?

Big Calhoun
February 27, 2007, 05:08 PM
No, no horseplay. I do open carry inside my home but it's only me and the wife. Outside the home or when guests are over, strictly concealed. It's not a topic of conversation, it's not a 'show and tell' moment....just drink your tea, shutup, and pass me the remote. :D

gunsmith
February 27, 2007, 05:53 PM
is an idiot.
Is he on medication?
being that you were doing dishes you should have clobbered him with the fry pan!
I'm serious, it's not assault if he was grabbing your gun.

JohnL2
February 27, 2007, 05:55 PM
If anyone did that to me there would be an extremely high likelihood that they would be belted in the face.

gunsmith
February 27, 2007, 06:00 PM
when people grab your gun , stab them in the hand.
They stop doing that.
invest in a good retention holster.

bogie
February 27, 2007, 06:01 PM
Guys, you need to EDUCATE the people around you. Given that most of the folks in the world, a lot of you guys included, have gained most of their information from television, we've got a long way to go.

Now put your pen... er... gun somewhere where they can't play with it.

MRIman
February 27, 2007, 06:10 PM
An elbow to the nose will do the job.
A broken nose,and a pair of black eyes go
a long way. He will not do it again.
Been thier,done that.

MRI

Geno
February 27, 2007, 06:10 PM
I frequently wear vests. I have some that are casual, some that are fancy! They come in cotton, silk, leather, you name it. They look great, are toasty warm and keep personal items like your firearms concealed. Being that youre in Kentucky, chilly, it wont look too out-of-place.

rustymaggot
February 27, 2007, 06:10 PM
why were you open carrying around the house with your friends there? and why do you keep friends like that around?

+1 on smacking him as hard as you can when he grabs for the gun. stabbing your friend is a bit much in my mind but hey, its your call.

vis--vis
February 27, 2007, 06:19 PM
He is 27 and we are all gun owners and all have been in Christian ministry. We tend to lean toward maturity and this was a rare slip for him in the area of anything irresponsible. He's a good roommate and so I'm not going to send him packing on this one. The threat of death was plenty for him, I believe.

Geno
February 27, 2007, 06:19 PM
Maybe I'm missing the intended jokes here, but in case I'm not, let me be a voice of reason.

Our friend, here, was wearing his pistol. Those who have encouraged inflicting pain on the roommate, at least in Michigan, if you are in possession of a firearm at the time you commit a crime, it becomes and instant felony...i.e. assault.

Now, if I am over reacting, I sincerely apologize. We need to exercise reason. I would hate for the antis to look in here and see us encouraging violence with carrying.

JMHO,

Doc2005

Mandirigma
February 27, 2007, 06:30 PM
Anyone ever done that to you?

Had it happen about a month ago at work. Had a guy at work decide it would be "fun" to sneak up behind me and grab my knife. All he got for his trouble, as the knife stayed in its sheath, was my heel stomped into his foot and an elbow to his throat (wasn't aimed, just thrown) and I spun with my arms raised to fight.

"Dude I was just playing" was the answer I got. I just looked him dead in the eye and said "Don't"

Just to make sure, I'm not condoning violence. What happened was an automatic response. Too many years of training, and a broken OODA loop. I didn't think about what I was doing, I just acted. I actually even dropped what was in my hands to free them up.

He makes noise whenever he is behind me now. Whats is interesting is the looks on peoples faces who saw what happened. A couple of them even saw him sneaking up on me. One of the girls got mad at me "Why did you have to hit him?" I just pivoted and showed her my knife. He went for that.

Baba Louie
February 27, 2007, 06:38 PM
Anyone ever done that to you?No

There is no horseplay when deadly weapons are concerned.
You know that.
I know that.
Now, even your roommate knows that.
I'd prefer to calmly discuss it beforehand whenever that's a possibility, but it sounds like he heard the short, quick version.

When you say "open carry" was it IWB carry w/ grip exposed or OWB?

Dorryn
February 27, 2007, 07:42 PM
I carry Condition 1. No friend I have would be so stupid to even joke about it. ;)

ShackleMeNot
February 27, 2007, 08:32 PM
I asked how old you are to get a gauge of your frame of reference with how long you have carried and the probable age of your roommate.

Many people think open carry is superior to concealed because they can access the gun faster and some like the statement of having an obvious gun on their hip.

Open carry also has at least one serious down side. Everyone knows you are carrying a gun and you need to be in control of what other people are doing around you at all times.

Your roommate needs to understand that he shouldn't joke around when it comes to guns but you also learned a cheap lesson that open carry invites stupidity that you have to be ready to handle.

Last, I dont think saying, Do you want to die?! has any value in a situation where you didnt really need to kill anyone. Were you really going to shoot him?

Aguila Blanca
February 27, 2007, 08:35 PM
Find new roommates.

Quickly.

The ones you have are irresponsible ... and stupid. Bad combination.

Standing Wolf
February 27, 2007, 08:39 PM
Find new roommates.

I'll second that.

toivo
February 27, 2007, 08:47 PM
Not to me personally, but I have heard that same scenario repeated countless times. I think it might possibly be the #1 "prank" to pull on someone who has a gun showing. Why? Anyone with reason and logic will never know. This is a real problem for anyone, but especially police. Police deal with many retards on a daily basis.I know that what you say is true, but I'm still astounded that anyone can think that grabbing a cop's gun as a "prank" is a good idea. Sounds to me like an invitation for the application of extreme Darwin Principle.

Aguila Blanca
February 27, 2007, 08:55 PM
Maybe I'm missing the intended jokes here, but in case I'm not, let me be a voice of reason.

Our friend, here, was wearing his pistol. Those who have encouraged inflicting pain on the roommate, at least in Michigan, if you are in possession of a firearm at the time you commit a crime, it becomes and instant felony...i.e. assault.

Now, if I am over reacting, I sincerely apologize. We need to exercise reason. I would hate for the antis to look in here and see us encouraging violence with carrying.
You're not overreacting, Doc, you're just plain wrong. Since when is self defense a crime, even in Michagan?

If I have a lethal weapon strapped to my body and someone is trying to take that lethal weapon away from me ... my life is in danger and I am entitled to defend myself using the degree of force necessary. Since the weapon being grabbed is a lethal weapon, I am justified in using lethal force to defend myself. A broken nose is nothing compared to what the idiot could get.

"Just horseplay" you say? Yeah, but suppose the idiot fumbles as he grabs MY gun out of MY holster. That gun is next to MY body, and I am as likely as anyone to get shot if the idiot happens to grab the gun by the trigger.

Sorry, but I don't think using force to retain control of MY gun would constitute assault. The idiot's grabbing my gun is the assault ... his action places me in danger of immediate death or serious injury.

Bobhwry
February 27, 2007, 09:00 PM
We are "leaning towards maturity", I don't think so!! What y:cuss: :cuss: ou did and what he did was stupid, moronic, and irresponsible! Grow up before someone get's hurt!!

gezzer
February 27, 2007, 09:12 PM
He did nothing wrong, give it a break. The roomate is an idiot.

Son you do need weapon retention training.

Geno
February 27, 2007, 09:21 PM
Several people have given excellent examples to resolve the problem, i.e. carrying concealed, and using a holster with a stop (catch) such as the police use. For me, I prefer a strapless holster, and so I carry concealed.

I will depart the conversation with these final thoughts. Regardless of what the laws in any give state hold, they are almost always open to interpretation by the LEOs who arrive on the scene. I prefer to seek a proactive solution on my own, rather than a defense position after-the-fact.

Doc2005

Anonymous Coward
February 27, 2007, 09:22 PM
Maybe your roommates just don't take you serious when you're open carrying a Glock while doing the dishes.

God knows I wouldn't, either.

bogie
February 27, 2007, 09:24 PM
The roomie isn't "dumb."

The roomie _is_ "ignorant."

And I don't think it was handled all that well. Threatening someone is not a good course of action. However, _explaining_ that your training and reflexes, i.e., muscle memory, is such that if you feel someone trying to acquire your weapon, you may just react, is a completely different story.

Now everyone can PLEASE quit the BS macho posturing.

ZeSpectre
February 27, 2007, 09:27 PM
I think a lot of you are missing an important part of this equation. The roommate was criminally stupid, you don't grab someone else's firearm PERIOD. No argument there. But since it happened as it did the OP needs to sit down with that roomie or friend or whomever (and any others who are there) and explain -why- it is so stupid.

-That a gun owner cannot and will not loose control of a deadly weapon to anyone.

-That an untrained person shouldn't be handling a weapon (and by definition someone who'd grab a gun out of another persons holster IS untrained no matter what they think).

-That one careless action in a situation like this could easily result in a life altering circumstance (I refuse to call it an accident in this case) for one or more people involved.

-That weapon retention training could have gotten the roomie hurt by reflex.

Now if I know human reactions, somebody is gonna get upset and defensive in a conversation and try to turn the responsibility for this situation back on you with some variation of "well why were you wearing it in the first place". Don't let this throw you. Keep problem ownership correctly focused on the fact that it doesn't matter why you were open carrying, it matters that NOBODY EVER grabs someone else's sidearm without permission PERIOD.

poor_richard
February 27, 2007, 09:34 PM
I think a lot of you are missing an important part of this equation. The roommate was criminally stupid, you don't grab someone else's firearm PERIOD. No argument there. But since it happened as it did the OP needs to sit down with that roomie or friend or whomever (and any others who are there) and explain -why- it is so stupid.

-That a gun owner cannot and will not loose control of a deadly weapon to anyone.

-That an untrained person shouldn't be handling a weapon (and by definition someone who'd grab a gun out of another persons holster IS untrained no matter what they think).

-That one careless action in a situation like this could easily result in a life altering circumstance (I refuse to call it an accident in this case) for one or more people involved.

-That weapon retention training could have gotten the roomie hurt by reflex.

Now if I know human reactions, somebody is gonna get upset and defensive in a conversation and try to turn the responsibility for this situation back on you with some variation of "well why were you wearing it in the first place". Don't let this throw you. Keep problem ownership correctly focused on the fact that it doesn't matter why you were open carrying, it matters that NOBODY EVER grabs someone else's sidearm without permission PERIOD.
__________________+1

vis--vis
February 28, 2007, 05:04 AM
I wasn't the one washing dishes. I was talking to a third roommate who was doing them. I did not know who was behind me that was grabbing at my gun.

Last, I dont think saying, Do you want to die?! has any value in a situation where you didnt really need to kill anyone. Were you really going to shoot him?

You would not use lethal force against someone fighting for control of your gun? The moment I knew someone was going for my gun, I automatically got into the mindset to prepare to defend myself. I maintained control of my gun. I turned and I identified what was going on/who my target was and I was ready to defend my life. I am glad it was my roommate. I am glad this was nonsensical horseplay and not some BG who came in through a window and had the balls to try and take on someone open carrying. As for the comment It was the first rebuke out of my mouth which I meant.

I think people are demonizing me for Open Carrying. I do not horseplay when I carry as I cannot afford to. I neither want to shoot someone, become egotistical and bold when I carry, or spend time in jail.

We are "leaning towards maturity", I don't think so!! What y ou did and what he did was stupid, moronic, and irresponsible! Grow up before someone get's hurt!!

Please sir, if you are going to call me "stupid," "moronic," and "irresponsible" I ask that you tell me specifically what I did wrong or any of you for that matter. And yea, we "lean towards maturity." There are times when we goof off and don't act like the stiff 25 year olds we ought. You might even say we horseplay. But when it comes to firearms safety, I for one prefer not to mess around. This time my roommate made a bad call. I fully intend to have a chat with him and the other roommate about expectations.

fattsgalore
February 28, 2007, 06:01 AM
My buddy tried that crap when i was at my house with my Glock. I head butted him, we got into an argument. But trust me when i say he wont do that agian. Are people crazy grabing a Glock, come on people no safety.

gunsmith
February 28, 2007, 08:29 AM
can kill you very quickly.

horseplay with loaded Glocks?
I know a 7 year old with more sense and maturity then that.

Open carry in your house is supposed to be a great idea, you know exactly
where your gun is and if the door gets kicked in you do not have to fight your way to the gun safe.

As some one who has been the victim of a home invasion, complete with stab wounds, I always have a gun handy in my home.

Originally Posted by ZeSpectre
I think a lot of you are missing an important part of this equation. The roommate was criminally stupid, you don't grab someone else's firearm PERIOD. No argument there. But since it happened as it did the OP needs to sit down with that roomie or friend or whomever (and any others who are there) and explain -why- it is so stupid.

-That a gun owner cannot and will not loose control of a deadly weapon to anyone.

-That an untrained person shouldn't be handling a weapon (and by definition someone who'd grab a gun out of another persons holster IS untrained no matter what they think).

-That one careless action in a situation like this could easily result in a life altering circumstance (I refuse to call it an accident in this case) for one or more people involved.

-That weapon retention training could have gotten the roomie hurt by reflex.

Now if I know human reactions, somebody is gonna get upset and defensive in a conversation and try to turn the responsibility for this situation back on you with some variation of "well why were you wearing it in the first place". Don't let this throw you. Keep problem ownership correctly focused on the fact that it doesn't matter why you were open carrying, it matters that NOBODY EVER grabs someone else's sidearm without permission PERIOD.

ShackleMeNot
February 28, 2007, 12:07 PM
You would not use lethal force against someone fighting for control of your gun? The moment I knew someone was going for my gun, I automatically got into the mindset to prepare to defend myself. I maintained control of my gun. I turned and I identified what was going on/who my target was and I was ready to defend my life. I am glad it was my roommate. I am glad this was nonsensical horseplay and not some BG who came in through a window and had the balls to try and take on someone open carrying. As for the comment It was the first rebuke out of my mouth which I meant.

Yes, I would use lethal force to defend against a disarm. Asking, "Do you want to die?!" after the fact is not something I would do.

SolaScriptura139
February 28, 2007, 12:21 PM
Asking, "Do you want to die?!" after the fact is not something I would do.

Well, chastising him for saying it isn't right either. The simple fact is that the roommate played with his life and didn't realise it. Vis a vis let him know that. It probably was a reactive statement anyway. I'm sure he explained that what his roommate did was stupid, although it should have been obvious afterward anyway.

Deavis
February 28, 2007, 12:24 PM
He's a good roommate and so I'm not going to send him packing on this one. The threat of death was plenty for him, I believe.


He made a mistake and your death threat was over-reacting. For all of you who advocate using deadly force against him, think again. If at any time the opposite party clearly withdraws their intent to continue, you are no longer justified in using any force against him. This has been covered by the USSC, sorry guys. Roomate stoped when confronted, force option is out the window.

My opinion, educate him instead of threatening him. If he is a good roomate/person, which you indicate, it will never happen again. People do stupid things sometimes without thinking, especially around people/objects they are really familiar with. I'm sure he can't explain why he did it and probably thinks it was very ignorant himself. His friendship with you probably clouded his judgement, he associated the action with you and not the weapon. It happens, anyone who says otherwise is full of it. Familiarity breeds mistakes. I believe, based on your story that this is one of them and is no different than neglecting to chamber check an "unloaded gun". You know better but your familiarity caused you to act before thinking.

Machismo BS isn't the way to handle it, despite the posturing here, and it isn't the most constructive. A few well chosen words about the dangers of such an action, not "I will kill you" but rather, "Do you realize what might have happened if I didn't realize it was you?" or "Do you realize that you could have caused a ND which could have hurt both of us?" will make him punish himself worse than you could ever do, if he is in fact the way you describe. If he is an idiot, then consider other options. I'm not condoning his "prank", which was not well thought out, but I'm not condoning your reaction either. There was, in my opinion, a better way to handle it, a rational way that didn't involve an empty death threat. Are you really going to kill him over it? Doubtful, so why use that as your means of educating him?

Lupinus
February 28, 2007, 12:25 PM
You did nothing wrong. You felt someone try to disarm you and you countered that by stoping it from happening, I have a hard time seeing where people find him in the wrong.

He said the first words that came to mind, words that had he not realized it was his roommate or even worse been an actual attacker been very true words. Could he have worded them better? Probably. But were they to the point and lacked a bit of better wording due to his mindset at the time. Big whoop.

Oh thats right he was open carrying. God forbid someone exorcise their prefered method of carry :rolleyes:

MilsurpShooter
February 28, 2007, 01:05 PM
Happened to me once on my way into work. Stopped at the deli to get a sandwich and the newspaper like I usually do. It's a hangout and a few old buddies from high school are usually in there. At the register, my wallet out and ready to pay when I feel the holster shifting. Hand clamped down on the gun, other hand grabbed the wrist, spun and just barely stopped my knee before it caught him in the stomach. Got the typical "what the he[ck], I was just kidding" comments until I pushed him towards the wall, and calmly, and loud enough for the others in the store to hear "If you value your life, never, ever, go for someones gun"

Never had a problem stopping in again and my buddy called later to apologize for a "bonehead" manuever. I think what it is is that some people just don't understand the magnitude of that simple action. To them it's like taking someones pen and moving it or hiding it

arthurcw
February 28, 2007, 01:13 PM
Lupinus +1

You did good Vis.

You should look at this as a training event.

You kept the gun. +1
You ID'ed the actor. +1
You used force appropriate to the circumstances. +1
You used words that COULD get you in some trouble in the outside world. -1.

It was a hot situation and once you ID'ed the person you let your emotions get the better of you. Words like that in a "social situation" could come back to haunt you. Learn to control your feelings Luke.

That said; I'm not sure I'd have been much nicer. We tend to let fly the tongue on those we know. Im sure I would have had a LOOOOOONG string of things to say that would not have looked good to a jury. Something for me to think about.

Oh... and I carry open in my home. I'm too slow to make it to the gun safe if someone comes through the door. I'm also a lousy guesser.

Travis Lee
February 28, 2007, 01:22 PM
"machismo"?

If anybody thinks that grabbing someone's gun from behind is "just a joke" I suggest you try playing that joke on a police officer.

He won't think it's funny.

You won't think it's funny either.

--Travis--

Nitrogen
February 28, 2007, 01:29 PM
I had something similar happen in my own home. A (male) friend of my wife went grabbing for my gun from the rear (basically asking to see it) and I elbowed him in the celiac plexus, knocking the wind out of him. Needless to say, he'll never do that again.

I took him out to dinner to smoothe things over, explaining what a bad idea that is, and he felt pretty stupid afterwards.

It's always a good idea to practice retension excersizes of some type.

Bazooka Joe71
February 28, 2007, 01:33 PM
Did you say your roommate was 7 or 27? Don't get me wrong, you did absolutely nothing wrong. Your words may have been over the top, but you were talking with your emotions....What kind of moron trys to grab a glock out of a holster?

joab
February 28, 2007, 01:46 PM
When I was your age I had two roommates and a cute little black pistol grip shotgun

Came home early one day and my normally locked door was open and I could hear joking and laughter coming from my room.

I heard one saying bang bang and something about Rambo
As I came into the room One room mate was holding the shotgun pointed at the other.
As he turned to me I grabbed the gun and baton smashed him hard in the chest with it, snapped the safety off and ejected the live round in the chamber.
He started to make a stuttering apology and I told him I had three more rounds ans he needed to leave now.
I moved out about a week later.

Your friend was simply being childish for a minute, mine were showing their disrespect for me and my property.

Those who have encouraged inflicting pain on the roommate, at least in Michigan, if you are in possession of a firearm at the time you commit a crime, it becomes and instant felony...i.e. assault.And what would the attempted strong arm theft of a firearm be?

Last, I don’t think saying, “Do you want to die?!” has any value in a situation where you didn’t really need to kill anyone. Were you really going to shoot him?I didn't read it as a threat of retaliatory violence but rather a "do you realize that you could killed doing that" warning. Can we get a clarification from the OP
Son you do need weapon retention training.If you read the post you will see that he instinctively reacted to the threat in a timely manner and maintained control of his firearm, why would you think that he needs retention training

Outlaw Man
February 28, 2007, 01:52 PM
The only thing you might have done wrong (and I'd be just as likely to do it) is saying anything to him. If it were a BG really going for your gun you don't owe him any words. Turn to a position where you can retain your gun and take up an offensive (not defensive) stance - draw your weak hand-carried knife if you have it - and make him fully aware of his choices: stop or die.

That's pretty much exactly what you did, only I don't think it's necessary to say anything to him. You'd already know his answer if he was a real attacker. Since he wasn't, it might have been better to wait until you were a little more calm to tell him why he made a potentially fatal mistake.

Again, I likely would have done the same thing. Unfortunately, words can be used against you in court, especially if your jury has a lot of bleeding hearts.

vis--vis
February 28, 2007, 02:41 PM
Lupinus +1

You did good Vis.

You should look at this as a training event.

You kept the gun. +1
You ID'ed the actor. +1
You used force appropriate to the circumstances. +1
You used words that COULD get you in some trouble in the outside world. -1.

It was a hot situation and once you ID'ed the person you let your emotions get the better of you. Words like that in a "social situation" could come back to haunt you. Learn to control your feelings Luke.

That said; I'm not sure I'd have been much nicer. We tend to let fly the tongue on those we know. Im sure I would have had a LOOOOOONG string of things to say that would not have looked good to a jury. Something for me to think about.

Oh... and I carry open in my home. I'm too slow to make it to the gun safe if someone comes through the door. I'm also a lousy guesser.

Yes Master Yoda.

Lupinus is right that they were the first words I could come up with. They were still phrased as a question rather than a statement, which makes it rhetorical to impose thought rather than a direct threat which means it was intended to convey more what Mr. Anderson said here: "If you value your life, never, ever, go for someones gun." It is quite a serious matter. I stopped force when he stopped and lost his smile.

That doesn't mean the question is without the implication of escalation on my part, however, and can see how it was not the best choice of words and can be viewed negatively. I shall try and reform myself and am confident that it will aid my legal defense should I ever have to give an account for my actions, God forbid.

I'm glad examples and explanations have been given as asked and I'm sorry if I did not make myself crystal. That being said, I think I did nothing wrong, save that I could tame the tongue a bit more.

vynx
February 28, 2007, 03:32 PM
Just make sure your roommate understands how this little stunt could have easily turned into a fatal tragedy.

I am sure if you do a new search you can find some fatalities associated with horseplay & firearms.

I remember a case only a month or 2 ago - in Milwaukee I think, where a girl killed her sister. The girls excuse I was just pointing the gun at her and playing I didn't know it was loaded. Now her sisters dead and her life and probably the families is ruined.

In your case your roommate wouldn't be able to say I didn't know it was loaded.

Just make sure he understands the gavity of what he attempted to do - someone could easily have been shot and killed.

Aguila Blanca
February 28, 2007, 10:16 PM
Now if I know human reactions, somebody is gonna get upset and defensive in a conversation and try to turn the responsibility for this situation back on you with some variation of "well why were you wearing it in the first place". Don't let this throw you. Keep problem ownership correctly focused on the fact that it doesn't matter why you were open carrying, it matters that NOBODY EVER grabs someone else's sidearm without permission PERIOD.
Hell, several participants in this thread have tried to pin the blame on the OP for open carrying. Yeah, yeah, "concealed means concealed," but this wasn't the regional shopping mall, this was the kitchen of his own apartment, with nobody present but two roommates who (presumeably) already know that he carries. So what good does concealment do? I carry concealed when I'm "out and about," but my holster is an OWB and at home I don't necessary feel the need to wear a jacket or a vest to cover it.

Sorry, folks, I for one feel that the only mistake the OP made was in his choice of roommates. (And possibly in his choice of firearms, but that's for another day and another discussion.)

poor_richard
February 28, 2007, 11:07 PM
I think a lot of people are splitting hairs here. About the only thing that could be found wrong with the OP's action is a poor choice of word that could be and appears to have been misconstrued.

When I read that he said "Do you want to die!", I didn't take it that he said it as a threat, but more along the lines of a knee-jerk reaction on how dangerous his roommate's action was. It didn't sound like a threat at all, but more of an admonishment.

I can however see how those words can be taken out of context, and used against him.

Phyphor
February 28, 2007, 11:28 PM
your roomate
is an idiot.
Is he on medication?
being that you were doing dishes you should have clobbered him with the fry pan!
I'm serious, it's not assault if he was grabbing your gun.

Thanks for that wonderful visual. I can just see that now.

"Dude, I'm grabbing your gun."
"HEY! Hands off-" *CLANG*
"Dude, I'm grabbing an icepack."
:neener:



(Holy crap! Post #666!)



(er.... or is that UnHoly crap?)

.cheese.
February 28, 2007, 11:34 PM
Time to have a serious discussion with the roomate!

That's how accidents happen.

Black Knight
February 28, 2007, 11:39 PM
First you did good not great but good. The main thing is you protected the weapon and yourself. You may want to look into taking a weapon retention course or two. Imagine the roommate if after you clamped down on the gun he got an elbow to the face. Then you called the police to report an assault. Technically he did attempt to assault you with a deadly weapon. I would look for another place or new roommates.

buck460XVR
March 1, 2007, 12:06 AM
..........I read this thread thru about a half a dozen times and I'm still lost. First off I don't understand why you felt it necessary to carry a loaded gun around inside your home at all. Do you live in that bad of neighborhood where the BG's from Louisville, KY routinely come thru open windows and attack groups of young men doing the dishes?

joab
March 1, 2007, 12:24 AM
You may want to look into taking a weapon retention course or two. Again what brings you to that conclusion, he retained his weapon

First off I don't understand why you felt it necessary to carry a loaded gun around inside your home at all. Do you live in that bad of neighborhood where the BG's from Louisville, KY routinely come thru open windows and attack groups of young men doing the dishes?Maybe he carries at home for the same reason you ridicule those that live their life differently than you, he feels like it.

And by the way guess where most home invasion robberies happen and most home defense situations occur

Hypnogator
March 1, 2007, 12:46 AM
Anyone ever done that to you?

No, because I don't open carry. That's only one reason why.

vis--vis
March 1, 2007, 05:04 AM
And by the way guess where most home invasion robberies happen and most home defense situations occur

I'm not too sure, but in the home maybe??? :eek:

gunsmith
March 1, 2007, 08:14 AM
First off I don't understand why you felt it necessary to carry a loaded gun around inside your home at all.

OR

I don't know why you need to vote at all.

OR

I don't know why black people and white people need to marry.

OR

I don't know why you need a Bible (Koran, Torah, Tibetan book of the Dead etc)

OR

I don't know why you need a newspaper

OR

I don't know why you want to write a letter to your Senator.

it is not a NEED!
it is a RIGHT

I guess you have not been a victim of a home invasion, if it happens to you as it happens to many people in both good or bad neighborhoods, you will wish you had exercised your rights.

Working Man
March 1, 2007, 08:25 AM
Son you do need weapon retention training.

Something everyone should have.

I'm not big on open carry in public (gives away an advantage IMO) but in the
home, why not? A serious sit down is in order as that was an incredibly stupid
and dangerous thing for him to do.

Make sure the house rules are laid out and followed.
I currently have 2 roommates as well.... everyone owns and carries.. no-one would
do something like that. We have known each other for years and still ask first before
touching each others firearms. If nothing less it is just out of respect.

RioShooter
March 1, 2007, 08:30 AM
Maybe your roommates just don't take you serious when you're open carrying a Glock while doing the dishes.

God knows I wouldn't, either.

Why not. Do you believe you're 100% safe in your home. I'm always armed at home.

Yesterday, there was a home invasion less than a mile from my house. One BG killed, another wounded. One LEO in the hospital.

I think you need to re-evaluate carrying at home.

Working Man
March 1, 2007, 08:39 AM
RioShooter, maybe it is because he was carrying a Glock. Although it is closely related to Tupperware.... are Glocks dishwasher safe? :neener:

ZeSpectre
March 1, 2007, 08:39 AM
I read this thread thru about a half a dozen times and I'm still lost. First off I don't understand why you felt it necessary to carry a loaded gun around inside your home at all. Do you live in that bad of neighborhood where the BG's from Louisville, KY routinely come thru open windows and attack groups of young men doing the dishes?

buck460XVR
I'm going to repeat what I said in an earlier post...

Now if I know human reactions, somebody is gonna get upset and defensive in a conversation and try to turn the responsibility for this situation back on you with some variation of "well why were you wearing it in the first place". Don't let this throw you. Keep problem ownership correctly focused on the fact that it doesn't matter why you were open carrying, it matters that NOBODY EVER grabs someone else's sidearm without permission PERIOD.

Maybe I should have gone into psychology :D

buck460XVR
March 1, 2007, 02:48 PM
it is not a NEED!
it is a RIGHT

I guess you have not been a victim of a home invasion, if it happens to you as it happens to many people in both good or bad neighborhoods, you will wish you had exercised your rights.

I know it's a right gunsmith......but was it necessary? Was he really in fear of his life while in his home with his roommates present or just being another Poser?

I also know that more friends and family get shot and KILLED by careless use of loaded guns in a home than BGs....look at the statistics, or just read this thread.

BTW...I do exercise my rights.....safely and with prudence. Any body in my home that has any contact with a gun always treats it as loaded and with respect or they're lookin' down the business end. I don't have to strut around with them loaded trying to show off or impress people who don't understand the dangers they're being exposed to...........but then I'm more a realist and not dreamin of being rambo..........

vis--vis
March 1, 2007, 03:02 PM
I've never been called a poser before, lol. I guess I am on my high horse and you, Buck, are subservient to me and not as manly because I am Rambo. :uhoh: In all seriousness I am an advocate of preparedness and the practical. Sorry if I don't feel like wearing my IWB holster 24/7. I don't insult you, sir, so I'd appreciate it if you would quit acting like a wiener.

cambeul41
March 1, 2007, 03:07 PM
. . . seems to be being judgmental about those of us who carry in the home in EXACTLY the same way as anti-gun people are judgmental about all of us.

arthurcw
March 1, 2007, 03:30 PM
I know it's a right gunsmith......but was it necessary?

I CCW 24/7 (even at home) because, to the bet of my knowledge, despite all the investment and R&D that has been spent on the project; Kel-Tec still expects its CCB-9* to be years off. When they perfect it, I will happily stop carrying anywhere except where needed.





*Crime Crystal Ball chambered in 9mm.

MechAg94
March 1, 2007, 03:33 PM
I also know that more friends and family get shot and KILLED by careless use of loaded guns in a home than BGs....look at the statistics, or just read this thread.
Please, show us the statistics.

Most Bad Guys confronted with a gun wielding home owner are not killed.

MrPeter
March 1, 2007, 04:00 PM
Okay, this is going to a place that I never expected it to. How can anyone even BEGIN to question the OP's choice in carrying in his home, open or not? Come on people, really now. This is PRO-RKBA discussion forum!

I think the OP did everything just fine. The outburst of, "Do you want to die?!" to me read more like, "You could have killed me or you, is that worth the laugh you got?" as opposed to, "I'm going to kill you for that because I am Conan the manwarrior Rambo guy!".

I live with roomates of similar ages, and I can tell you, that this kind of stuff is going to happen unless you sit down and talk to them face-to-face in a serious setting. When I unwrapped my new (well, not actually mine, as I'm sending it back, but that's another story) AK WASR2, wiped off the grease from it, and pulled back the action to check the chamber, my roomate drooled and asked to hold it. When I handed it to him, he let out a little Beavis and Butthead laugh and shouldered the rifle pointing it right at my head.

I let out a few obscenities, but before I could finish, my other roomate said some infuriating words, "Yeah dude, never point a gun at someone, especially someone who owns guns."

Needless to say, I was stunned and a little speechless. Those last five words were so painfully stupid, I just took the rifle back from him and went upstairs, without saying a thing.

PILMAN
March 1, 2007, 04:08 PM
Try grabbing a gun out of a cops holster and explain to them that you were "just kidding".

I agree with what the OP did. It was a self defense situation. I wouldn't be open carrying in my house personally nor would I draw the gun but the roommate had no right to grab for the gun either.

QuickDraw
March 1, 2007, 04:36 PM
Well,my .02 is this....
The phrase"Do you want to die" was
probably spoken out of fear/adrenaline rush. Vis had identified the threat as
his roommate and blurted the first thing that came to mind.
I think its the same as "Are you crazy?",more as a retorical question.
I can see myself saying the same thing
at that moment.
My take:No harm,no foul.
I think the roomy learned his lesson.

Aguila Blanca
March 1, 2007, 06:16 PM
I know it's a right gunsmith......but was it necessary? Was he really in fear of his life while in his home with his roommates present or just being another Poser?

I also know that more friends and family get shot and KILLED by careless use of loaded guns in a home than BGs....look at the statistics, or just read this thread.

BTW...I do exercise my rights.....safely and with prudence. Any body in my home that has any contact with a gun always treats it as loaded and with respect or they're lookin' down the business end. I don't have to strut around with them loaded trying to show off or impress people who don't understand the dangers they're being exposed to...........but then I'm more a realist and not dreamin of being rambo..........
Buck, it doesn't matter whether or not you think it was "necessary, what matters is that vis-a-vis thought it was prudent. Ya know, there's this funny thing about crimes ... I don't know if you've ever noticed, but very few people choose to be victims of crime. Those who are victims of crime very seldom get to choose the time, place, or nature of the crime.

Do you have a smoke detector in your house/apartment? If so, why? It obviously isn't "necessary" if you've never had a fire.

People take preventive precautions against the possibility of something happening that they would prefer to not have happen. Hell, if we were all psychic with 100% infallibility, nobody would ever need a gun, pepper spray, knife or any other defensive weapon because we would know when an attack was coming and simply avoid it. Not being infallibly psychic, some oeple choose to carry means of self defense, much as other people choose to carry a spare tire in their car.

Here's a little reality check for you, Buck: If you believe that a home invasion cannot ever happen to you ... you are NOT being a "realist."

gunsmith
March 1, 2007, 06:21 PM
but then I'm more a realist and not dreamin of being rambo

They drew first blood, not me.:neener:

buck460XVR
March 1, 2007, 07:05 PM
I apologize to those who think I have stepped on your toes..... you are as entitled to your opinions as I am to mine. I am not anti-carry, even in your home if it is really a necessity. I myself have a Rossi SxS coachgun loaded with 00 buckshot within reach of where I sleep at night. Those in my household know where it is and how to use it also....if and when a situation arises where someone other than that may come in contact with or mess with it, it gets unloaded and placed back in the safe. My only concern in this case was the loaded gun was not there for protection, but to be shown off and thus may have prompted the roommate to do the stunt he did. I agree that what he did was foolish, but he apparently was not informed of the potential danger.

I'm a little old school when it comes to guns, and have been around them all my life. Several years before I took my first hunter safety course(back in '66), my dad tried to instill safe gun handling habits in me. Now I know he wasn't quite as savvy as many of you, because he didn't learn from an internet tactical website. He learned from the 4th Marine Division on the islands of Iwo and Saipan, but still some of his words made sense to me. One thing he told me many times was "YOU are responsible for every shell in your gun everytime you load it....and YOU are responsible for them until you either unload them and put them back in your pocket or till they come to their final resting place after they leave the barrel......whether or not YOU are the one who pulled the trigger." I always took this to mean it didn't matter if I missed the deer and the bullet struck something I didn't want it to or if I placed my loaded gun someplace where someone else could shoot it. When one loads a gun they are the one responsible for it's contents.....whether they use the shells on the bad guy or the bad guy(or roommate) takes their gun and shoots them or their wife, they still have to accept the responsibility of that loaded weapon being there. The 2nd amendment does gives us the right to keep our guns, but it does not give anyone the right to use them irresponsibly.

......again. sorry Rambo for being such a weiner.

vis--vis
March 1, 2007, 07:57 PM
Well Buck, no one here will disagree with your sentiment of Gun Safety. But your problem is that you assume I am automatically striving to be like Rambo or am looking to impress. I don't know how I can prove to you one way or the other and so I will leave you to whatever opinion you wish to have whether it be right or wrong, but don't insult me in the process.

Bazooka Joe71
March 1, 2007, 08:09 PM
I don't know how I can prove to you one way or the other

Why try?

buck460XVR
March 1, 2007, 08:12 PM
But your problem is that you assume I am automatically striving to be like Rambo or am looking to impress.


this is what I was referring to bro.......guess I shoulda used a smiley with it.:o


. I guess I am on my high horse and you, Buck, are subservient to me and not as manly because I am Rambo

joab
March 1, 2007, 08:57 PM
I'm sorry but you are typical of the self righteous, holier than thou, be open minded and think like me, crowd

You project your own ignorance and shortcomings on to others

Just because you cannot carry in your home without getting that twinge of Ramboism you assume that all others do also

Just because you do not trust in your own ability to be safe with a loaded firearm in your home you think others are equally incapable.

Please tell me how is a holstered gun going to hurt anyone in the house or out

Okay, this is going to a place that I never expected it to. Only because you haven't been around long enough. I'm surprised it took so long for a moral superior to come out

gezzer
March 1, 2007, 10:15 PM
Again what brings you to that conclusion, he retained his weapon

His tactics worked because it was not a serious attempt. I had a BG try and snatch my gun (on duty) it is not fun, thank my instructor for my surviving but guess what no one ever mentioned the conflict of hurting another human badly. No, he was not shot just he had one hand and elbow badly injured in less time than it took to type this.

But the best thing is I went home unhurt to my wife and son at the end of my shift.

Snatching is a very serious time and can lead to deadly force.

vis--vis
March 2, 2007, 04:46 AM
I'm really glad he didnt put up a fight when I clamped down. Said goal was to pull it out though. We chatted about this today and he assured me he won't do it again.

Are there any good websites on retention techniques? I dont have any money to go through formal classes of that nature as yet, but my roommates dont mind practicing something we can watch/read be demonstrated together.

drummerwookie
March 2, 2007, 05:11 AM
nothing like what the original poster wrote about happened, but some friends of mine were out shooting in my friends woods, i wasnt there, luckly, or who knows what i wouldve done to this guy, but i guess what happened, was they were taking a break, and one guy picked up a pistal, with no mag, and pointed it at another guy there and pulled the trigger...they all just about went ape **** on him, and he just said "what, its empty, theres not even a magazine in it" and now, believe it or not, the same guy is training to be a cop.....when he told me he was training to be a cop, and showed me his glock, i couldnt believe it

vis--vis
March 2, 2007, 05:32 AM
nothing like what the original poster wrote about happened, but some friends of mine were out shooting in my friends woods, i wasnt there, luckly, or who knows what i wouldve done to this guy, but i guess what happened, was they were taking a break, and one guy picked up a pistal, with no mag, and pointed it at another guy there and pulled the trigger...they all just about went ape **** on him, and he just said "what, its empty, theres not even a magazine in it" and now, believe it or not, the same guy is training to be a cop.....when he told me he was training to be a cop, and showed me his glock, i couldnt believe it

What the crap!!! :what:

James Lee
March 2, 2007, 08:27 AM
Kind of makes you wish for an external safety doesn't it?

jeep-2
March 2, 2007, 08:38 AM
better get a holster with a full flat on it to protect each other, if you're that jumpy in your house, you must be a loose cannon on the streets.

CajunBass
March 2, 2007, 09:10 AM
Kind of makes you wish for an external safety doesn't it?

What difference would that have made? You don't think somone who could/would pull a trigger could/would flip off a safety?

JWarren
March 2, 2007, 09:16 AM
nothing like what the original poster wrote about happened, but some friends of mine were out shooting in my friends woods, i wasnt there, luckly, or who knows what i wouldve done to this guy, but i guess what happened, was they were taking a break, and one guy picked up a pistal, with no mag, and pointed it at another guy there and pulled the trigger...they all just about went ape **** on him, and he just said "what, its empty, theres not even a magazine in it" and now, believe it or not, the same guy is training to be a cop.....when he told me he was training to be a cop, and showed me his glock, i couldnt believe it


I HOPE SOMEONE let his supervisors know about this stunt! Seriously, I DO NOT want police on the streets that are that obviously STUPID. At best it is a very good opportunity for a LOT of additional remedial training for the guy and at worst, it is grounds for dismissal from the program in my mind.

OMG... I just can't believe what I am reading... I can't believe some people are THAT stupid.


John

Bazooka Joe71
March 2, 2007, 12:50 PM
nothing like what the original poster wrote about happened, but some friends of mine were out shooting in my friends woods, i wasnt there, luckly, or who knows what i wouldve done to this guy, but i guess what happened, was they were taking a break, and one guy picked up a pistal, with no mag, and pointed it at another guy there and pulled the trigger...they all just about went ape **** on him, and he just said "what, its empty, theres not even a magazine in it" and now, believe it or not, the same guy is training to be a cop.....when he told me he was training to be a cop, and showed me his glock, i couldnt believe it

Just when I think some people couldn't get any more STUPID.:banghead:

How old was your friend when he did this...If you tell me he was 3 1/2, I will let it slide, otherwise your friend is the biggest moron on the planet...period

Lets just say I'm glad I don't live in Piqua, the incompetent ticket-givers around my part are bad enough.
And he's about to be a LEO? Thats just priceless, in a very bad, very very scary way.

drummerwookie
March 2, 2007, 05:44 PM
Just when I think some people couldn't get any more STUPID.

How old was your friend when he did this...If you tell me he was 3 1/2, I will let it slide, otherwise your friend is the biggest moron on the planet...period

Lets just say I'm glad I don't live in Piqua, the incompetent ticket-givers around my part are bad enough.
And he's about to be a LEO? Thats just priceless, in a very bad, very very scary way.



yea, i couldnt believe it either when my friend told me this guy did that...like i said, i wasnt there. but who knows what would have happened...trust me, im not a very physical or confrontational person, but i couldnt have just let that one go...and he is 21 years old. may have been 20 when it happened bc it was b4 i even had my first rifle.

there are a lot of nice cops around here, but there are a few bad apples, especially in the much smaller towns like covington. but ive been pulled over 4 times since i was 16 and im 22 in a few days, first two were when i was 16, and the last two were just warnings, and only of them pissed me off. he put down on my ticket, as a seperate offence, that i was an unruly juvenile...i knew i was wrong for speeding, but i wasnt going to let the seperate offence fly, but the judge never brought it up while going over the ticket (since i was under 18, i had to go to court with parents) so i didnt either

gunsmith
March 2, 2007, 07:50 PM
Kind of makes you wish for an external safety doesn't it?
Not at all, I invested in a good retention holster it cost me a little over 100 bucks.

I saw a video of a jewelry store holdup and the owner got his gun out first but didn't realize in the heat of the moment that his safety was on.

He was shot dead without ever firing a shot.

The best external safety is your brain!

Caimlas
March 2, 2007, 09:51 PM
You used words that COULD get you in some trouble in the outside world. -1.


Nonsense. If someone is grabbing for my gun, I'm going to try and stop them from getting it. Furthermore, that potentially involves drawing the weapon and shooting the person, if they're not identified as a friendly (and probably even intimately so) person. Think about it: you're a quick identification away from drawing your weapon on someone. Adrenaline is pulsing through your blood, and you are actively responsive. That's a very dangerous situation and deserves a harsh rebuke after the fact - even if we're not taking into the account that it could be considered attempted armed robbery, or something like that.

As for what was actually said, "Do you want to die?!", I don't see that as a threat in the least bit. I see that as a warning, given how it was said. If I were to say that in such a situation, it owuld be out of exasperation, relief, and anger all mixed in - like a mother chastizing her kid for running in front of a Jersey Transit bus. :) It's no different than saying, "Do you have a death wish?!" when someone is playing Russian Roulette.

Joe the Redneck
March 2, 2007, 11:28 PM
Q) Why is it a bad idea to open carry in your home?

A) Because sometimes the people you live with are not as smart as you think they are.

What are you more afraid of: Osama bin Laden kicking in your door and trying to kill you without a moment's notice, or your room mate doing something stupid?

You make that choice, and live with the results. Hopefully.

I believe the incident speaks for itself. It sounds like you both learned a lesson.

Joe

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