Rifle for a small woman?


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nobody_special
February 27, 2007, 06:48 PM
Any suggestions for a rifle which is manageable and easy-recoiling for someone who is 5'1" and I'd guess not much over 100 pounds? It has to be CA-legal, and semi-auto is strongly preferred.

My first thought was to recommend a late-model mini-14 or mini-30. However, she's planning to move to northern CA, which is black bear country. I'm not sure that a mini would be sufficient to discourage or stop a marauding bear.

Are there any better options?

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Car Knocker
February 27, 2007, 06:59 PM
A rifle with a short length of pull, relatively lightweight, light recoil, semi-auto, and powerful enough to handle an attacking bear. AND has to be CA-legal. That's a tough order.

Tell us more about the lady: is she familiar with long guns and confortable around them? Will she practice with whatever she gets? Is she capable of and willing to maintain it? What would the usage be besides bear defense? Would a 20-gauge, youth-model, semi-auto shotgun loaded with slugs be acceptable?

chipp
February 27, 2007, 07:00 PM
Its not a semi. And don't know the laws in Cal. But I'm guessing this would be legal.
.357/ 38 levergun. I have a rossi snd to me a .38 doesn't have much more recoil than a 22.
If she wants to step it up they make a .357 cartridge with a 200 grain bullet.
They claim its adequate for bear.
Its alot of fun to shoot and With some practice could get very quick with it.

wcwhitey
February 27, 2007, 07:02 PM
I was just at my local gun store drooling over the Marlin 1894 in both .357 and .44 Mag. What a nice balanced gun. Light and pointed really well. I can see what all the raves are about. I have shot similar carbines with full house .44 mags and the recoil was not heavy at all. I can only imagine how pleasant the .357 would be. .38's are a plinking option as well. I think the .357 from the carbine would be a fine gun for bear defense. Ultimately let her pick them up and tell you what feels good to her. I am thinking about going back and buying the .357 myself to save for the kids, of course I will have to break it in and try it out first. Bill

Edit: For the record Chipp won the drag race, coke is on me. Bill

nobody_special
February 27, 2007, 07:28 PM
Tell us more about the lady: is she familiar with long guns and confortable around them? Will she practice with whatever she gets? Is she capable of and willing to maintain it? What would the usage be besides bear defense? Would a 20-gauge, youth-model, semi-auto shotgun loaded with slugs be acceptable?

She is not familiar with firearms -- has been out shooting two or three times with friends. She will have to learn the gun of course, and she knows someone locally who will help her learn with a (borrowed) 22 rifle.

Will she practice? Probably some, but not as often as most people at THR. She is able to maintain it, though probably a stainless model would be best. :rolleyes:

The purpose is defense; I'm pretty sure she has no interest in hunting. In that part of the country, there are bear, mountain lion, and of course as we all know, the most dangerous critters of all are the evil-minded 2-legged sort.

A shotgun... hm, hadn't thought of that. I'm not really familiar with shotguns myself.

I'm a bit surprised at the suggestions of pistol-caliber carbines; are they really suitable?

hm2 clark
February 27, 2007, 07:30 PM
Well... I guess your looking for a holy grail. The closest rifle that meets all your requirements would be a Mini 30 modified by Accuracy Systems to the 6.5 Grendel or the 6.8 SPC. The Grendel would probably penetrate bear better. Probably cost about 1200 dollars. A cheaper alternative would be to use a lever action. I think a 30 30 would do just fine.

wcwhitey
February 27, 2007, 08:03 PM
The advantages of a .38/357 or .44 lever action are:
- Price and availability of ammo
- Ballistically the handgun rounds benefit from the longer barrels and will out produce their handgun counterparts
- Relative light recoil (if used with .38 Special very light recoil, easy practice)
- Good balance, easy manual of arms and very accurate with the right loads.
- Size, fairly small and compact
- Very Politically Correct gun, hell John Wayne used a lever action (I would not have even brought this up if you were not from **********).

A Mini-14 can be a good gun as well, the downsides that I see are:
- More complicated for a new shooter
- Very light bullet, not a very effective bear stopper
- Not as PC

One point about caliber choice, others may disagree: The .38/.357 combo would be perfect for the situation you mentioned. Like I mentioned the .38 is very light recoiling and would be a very effective round for home defense and small critters. For the bigger critters the .357 out of the carbine should be very effective using solid bullets like SWC's or Flat Nose. 180 Gr cast in the flat nose bullets would be adequate for bears. If she can handle the somewhat heavier recoil of the .44 Magnum that would be my first choice. There would be no doubt about enough power for any of the critters mentioned. For HD .44 Special can be used and would do nicely. Bil

chipp
February 27, 2007, 08:05 PM
.357 in a rifle is no joke. do a search for .357 levergun. I was curious myself.
Some say that certain ammo brings a .357 close to a 30 30 to 100 yards.
Doesn't sound like she will be shooting farther than that.
Plus its a great option to be able to plink with .38s

http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=708&osCsid=c09b21bcfaaa580beed924516eff9998

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=237990&highlight=.357+levergun

Ian
February 27, 2007, 08:09 PM
Until you mentioned black bears, I was thinking an M1 Carbine would be just the thing.

000Buck
February 27, 2007, 08:16 PM
Like others have said, a lever action 44mag is very light recoiling even with powerful loads. Ive got a Marlin in 44mag and it is a very easy shooting gun.

scrat
February 27, 2007, 09:21 PM
small woman that wants to shoot. i would recomend a marlin 60 or ruger 22 fun, easy to shoot, no kick, and both very accurate

10-Ring
February 27, 2007, 09:24 PM
I would think a lever action rifle in 45 LC, an AR in 6.8 spc or maybe a Ruger Mini 30. In this case, I would look at a lever action rifle in the caliber of her choice ;)

Husker1911
February 27, 2007, 09:28 PM
I've got a 700 Remington in .270Win. Does she cook well?
















:evil:

scrat
February 27, 2007, 09:34 PM
i saw this guy and girl at the range a few weeks ago. the guy was close to 6' the girl was around 5-5'3". He had a 7mm remington mag. He fired a few rounds from it. THen she took it. Looking at her i thought "thats stupid"

Boomm as soon as she pulled the trigger it hit her hard. she looked like she was almost going to fall down. Any how that was the last time she fired that. Felt bad for her. he should have known better than to let her fire that weapon. she was too small and thin in statue.

RockyMtnTactical
February 27, 2007, 09:38 PM
Are M1 carbines CA legal?

That would be a great choice.

mustanger98
February 27, 2007, 10:29 PM
My first thought was "what does she like", but then I read the part about her being a beginner.

For bear, cats, and two-legged miscreants, I'm leaning towards advising the Marlin 1894. .44magnum or .357magnum either one will do with the right ammo, plus she can load light and plink with it. Same goes for a .30-30 levergun with 170gr Remington or Winchester ammo, but I'd bet she's not into handloading yet to get the LFP-GC loads.

Stocks can be shortened to fit her length of pull. Felt recoil depends on two things- L.O.P./stock fit and mental state. Part of the mental deal is dealing with muzzle blast magnifies your perception of the kick. BTDT and got over it by using ear plugs.

Semi-autos are thinking people's guns and too many ain't heavy enough to qualify for bear and cats. M1 Garand, which is still California legal, is more than enough gun for the problem, but too big and heavy for someone the OP lady's size. Uness she wants to try an SKS, but 7.62x39 still ain't heavy enough IMO.

Frog48
February 27, 2007, 10:49 PM
Take her to a gunshop and see what she likes.

Girls usually have a blast with my AR-15. Size isnt an issue, because of the collapsable stock, and .223 Rem doesnt have much kick.

However .223 Rem probably wont take down a bear... unless you empty a 30-round mag into them.

Marlin 336 in .30-30 Win might be a good choice.

Oleg Volk
February 27, 2007, 10:55 PM
"Shorty" Garand?

telomerase
February 27, 2007, 10:56 PM
Submachine gun in 10mm... except for the laws that make women's guns like the MP5 available only to the privileged.

mustanger98
February 27, 2007, 11:18 PM
Oleg Volk:"Shorty" Garand?

Yeah, come to think of it, while a T-26 build may be on the heavy side, it could work. Especially if it had an adjustable gas nut so it could handle a wider range of ammo. Or if a T-26 weren't an option, maybe one of those woodless Dane rack grades dropped into a Ramline stock... I'm sure that'd lighten it up some.

However .223 Rem probably wont take down a bear... unless you empty a 30-round mag into them.

Ummm, yeah, my point exactly. I wouldn't bet on dumping a 30rd mag into a bear stopping him fast enough.

Frog48
February 27, 2007, 11:26 PM
Ummm, yeah, my point exactly. I wouldn't bet on dumping a 30rd mag into a bear stopping him fast enough.

Yeah I know. I was a joking... I guess sarcasm doesnt convey well on the internet. :D

Limeyfellow
February 27, 2007, 11:30 PM
My grandfather was about that size and weight when he was using a Lee Enfield back in national service and so was alot of others in his unit. Sometimes I think the problem is we underestimate women because of the smaller frame but many men have been using much more stout firing firearms and were that size.

mustanger98
February 27, 2007, 11:33 PM
Yeah I know. I was a joking... I guess sarcasm doesnt convey well on the internet.

Grant48, I know what you mean. I guess between the inability to inject tone and the life-and-death gravity of the matter, too, it makes it even harder to pick up on. I'm not aiming this observation at anybody, but in my case, I had to learn to be a lot careful about my choice of words on here since nobody can hear me talk.

Frog48
February 27, 2007, 11:36 PM
If she's small statured, dont rule out the possibility of a youth model 12 ga. shotgun.

12 ga. buckshot or slugs will drop a Black Bear. They're alot smaller than Grizzly Bears.

Actually, Black Bears are usually pretty leary, or downright scared, of humans. I've been fishing in remote areas of Minnesota and Canada, and I've encountered several Black Bears. Usually if you make some noise (yell, bang metal, blow air horn, etc) they'll run off.

Colt46
February 27, 2007, 11:37 PM
1892 Winchester reproductions are inexpensive, accurate, easy to use and pack a fair amount of punch out to 100 yds. They are also easy to carry and fit just about anywhere.

mustanger98
February 27, 2007, 11:38 PM
Limeyfellow, I think in a good many cases you are right about that. I'm a 6' 200lb guy and I sometimes carry a Lee Enfield deer hunting. My Daddy has always told me I needed to carry something a lot lighter... referring to deer rifles in the field, he says "we carry 'em a lot more than we shoot 'em". My Grandpa, however, was in the US Army in WW2 and he was a good bit shorter than me... I've talked about him having the M1 Carbine, but that was after he made E-5. Before that, when he went in at Normandy, I strongly suspect he had a Garand.

nobody_special
February 28, 2007, 12:44 AM
Wow, lots of replies... thanks for all the suggestions.

However .223 Rem probably wont take down a bear... unless you empty a 30-round mag into them.

:p Plus, in California they only get 10 round magazines. :uhoh:

wcwhitey, you have a good point that a 38/357 carbine is sensible. Here's another thought: is there any commercially available reduced-load ammunition for .308 or 30-06?

Actually, Black Bears are usually pretty leary, or downright scared, of humans. I've been fishing in remote areas of Minnesota and Canada, and I've encountered several Black Bears. Usually if you make some noise (yell, bang metal, blow air horn, etc) they'll run off.

The problem is all the careless people in the parks who leave food around, so the bears become accustomed to invading camping areas. I told her there are about 3 situations where wildlife may be a problem: (1) if food is scarce, such as in drought conditions; (2) if you do something stupid (harass an animal, or get between a bear and her cub), or (3) if the animal has learned to prefer human food.

Grant48 and Car Knocker suggested a youth-model shotgun... I have no experience whatsoever with shotguns... have never fired one. This actually sounds like a pretty good idea to me. My main concern is that the recoil and blast might produce a situation like scrat described:

Boomm as soon as she pulled the trigger it hit her hard. she looked like she was almost going to fall down. Any how that was the last time she fired that.

I'll check out the lever guns.

roscoe
February 28, 2007, 12:55 AM
I second the .357 lever gun. No recoil to speak of, and with heavy hardcast loads from Buffalo Bore or DoubleTap (available online) they are appropriate for bear. The rifles themselves can be had with 16" or 18" barrels, and are handy and compact. Winchester is gone, but you could get a used Winchester Trapper (16" barrel) or a new Puma (Rossi) 1982 with a 16" barrel, or a new Marlin 1894 with an 18" barrel. They are all good. I believe the Marlin and Puma are available in stainless.

Whatever rifle you get, I recommend getting a gunsmith to change the factory sights to an XO ghost ring (also available online). It is much more intuitive for a non-shooter to see through, and is much quicker to align when raising the rifle. Quick is good when you are worried about bear.

RNB65
February 28, 2007, 01:16 AM
Marlin 1894 .357mag or CZ 527 Carbine in 7.62x39.

Frog48
February 28, 2007, 01:29 AM
Here's another thought: is there any commercially available reduced-load ammunition for .308 or 30-06?

Yep, Remington makes a "Managed Recoil" line of ammo in both of those calibers, among others. I've used the .30-06, and when combined with a Limbsaver recoil pad, felt recoil is virtually nonexistent.

http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/centerfire/managed-Recoil.asp

dubious
February 28, 2007, 01:38 AM
On the much more affordable and practical side of the spectrum are the $200 SKS and $80 Mosin M38 carbines. They both have a pretty short pull... I have to put pads on em to make them long enough for my 6' self. You can bet my $200 chinese SKS was built with shorter folks in mind. Both of these rifles are 10lbs though which is a bit heavier than say... the M1 Carbine. The Mosin could quite possibly stop a bear with its 7.62x54r (more powerful than 308 but less than 30-06) cartridge, and the SKS is no joke with its 10 round (california) 7.62x39 mag (think 10 rounds of 30-30). I personally love these commie rifles... some of them are a lot higher quality than you might expect.

While I'd rather have an AR than an SKS in a yard firefight, I'd say the difference at 50-100 yards is pretty marginal, especially if you match magazine capacity. But lets not make this an AR vs SKS / AK thread.

Also, an 18.5 inch barrel 12 guage is a good idea, especially if your using lightly powdered shells. A 20 guage actually has more kick than a 12 guage with the same load, and the ammo selection is worse. 20 Guages are lighter but have more recoil.

Other ideas that come to mind are the AR, because it's friggin light but it's also hard to purchase in CA. Check out the ultra light Keltec SU-16, which is pretty CA legal, fires .223 AR ammo with AR mags AND will fold up in your backpack. I've heard mostly good things about it, though some of them seem a little wonky.

ugaarguy
February 28, 2007, 01:43 AM
Here's another thought: is there any commercially available reduced-load ammunition for .308 or 30-06?
Yes
http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/centerfire/managed-Recoil.asp
http://www.chuckhawks.com/rem_managed_recoil.htm
Federal also makes some low recoil loads but their website is set up poorly making it difficult to find out what's what.
.260 Remington is pretty light recoil as is, so with a reduced load a Remington Model 7 Youth in .260 would probably be a real soft shooter. Even 308 isn't bad. With the reduced recoil ammo it would also be very mild if Remington's "less than half" recoil claim is true. Remington's optional R3 recoil pads work very well too from posts I've read here. Hopefully all that is helpful.

Frog48
February 28, 2007, 01:44 AM
I agree, an SKS is something to consider.

I thought about mentioning that earlier, but was unsure about legality in Cali.

dubious
February 28, 2007, 02:56 AM
As far as I can tell, a CA legal SKS is any stock (unmodified) SKS without the grenade launcher and without an extended mag. That means you have to use stripper clips to load the 10 round internal mag. There used to be an anti-bayonet law, but that is no longer the case. Anything that is modified is up for debate. I'm not a lawyer, just a citizen, so if there are any doubts get it from the DOJ in writing.

Trebor
February 28, 2007, 03:02 AM
For general use, I reccomend a M-1 Carbine. If she's worried about bears specifically though, I don't know how well that would work.

How about the Ruger .44 Mag carbine? They made a semi-auto awhile back and have a lever gun version available now.

You know, we are looking at this backward. The gun isn't going to do her any good if she doesn't know how to use it. Have her get some rifle and shotgun training *first* and then she'll have a better idea of what she likes and what she can use effectively.

ArchAngelCD
February 28, 2007, 04:33 AM
I'll add another vote for a Marlin in .357 Magnum. A 158 gr .357 Magnum round will travel 1830 fps and have 1175 ft/lbs of energy out of a lever action rifle. That's no joke and the ammo is cheap too.

If that's not for her see if she can fire a 12 gauge with slugs, if not try a 20 gauge. Even a 3/4 oz 20 gauge slug will have almost 1900 ft/lbs of energy. If money isn't a problem then a semi-auto Browning or Winchester shotgun would be good since they are gas operated. She could probably handle a 12 gauge and it wouldn't kick any more than a pump 20 gauge would. Benelli would be even better since they have a new Inertia System takes up a ton of recoil and their new ComforTech system which reduces felt recoil up to 48% compared to other shotguns takes up even more. I'm almost sure she would be able to shoot a 12 gauge 3" Magnum slug out of a Benelli semi-auto shotgun.

LAK
February 28, 2007, 06:33 AM
With all do respect to the desire for a semi, I would go CZ 527 carbine or something like a Winchester 94 with iron sights. The biggest problem for a small statured lady with a rifle like a shorty M1A etc is the sheer weight of the rifle. Sure, they can learn to handle them shooting over bags etc - but in the field one must be able to shoot off hand. Some smaller folk have no problem with nine or ten pound rifles, many simply can not lug them around for long and do not handle them well shooting off the bench.

As for bear, I would choose bullets carefully. I do not know what the loading with the toughest bullets available for the 7.62x39 is; in 30-30 there are some like Federal that feature 170 grain Nosler Partitions.

Also recommend a copy of the late Col. Cooper's The Art of the Rifle for the lady.

-----------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

Clipper
February 28, 2007, 07:49 AM
Just ordered a Ruger compact (16.5" barrel, short length of pull and very light) bolt in .260 Rem. for my wife...

JShirley
February 28, 2007, 09:05 AM
Remington 7400 in .243, 6mm, or .308. Replacement M4-style stocks are available, if customizing LOP isn't chosen.

If she could handle the recoil and action, a 7600 in .35 Whelen would be perfect. I bought one for a truck gun/close range DG defense weapon for Alaska. (Haven't made it to Alaska yet, though! :p )

John

Doc Hollowpoint
February 28, 2007, 10:20 AM
Fairly light recoil. If you can find something short enough that might be the ticket.

mustanger98
February 28, 2007, 03:13 PM
Grant48 and Car Knocker suggested a youth-model shotgun... I have no experience whatsoever with shotguns... have never fired one. This actually sounds like a pretty good idea to me. My main concern is that the recoil and blast might produce a situation like scrat described:

Quote:
Boomm as soon as she pulled the trigger it hit her hard. she looked like she was almost going to fall down. Any how that was the last time she fired that.

I'll check out the lever guns.

nobody_special, I have a little experience with a Youth model 870 in 20guage. It's a good shootin' gun. Now, I've said that I'm 6' and 200lbs, but at the time I tried it out, I was 50lbs lighter plus the fact that I was worse disabled then than I am now. I was shooting some 2 2/4" field loads with a extra full choke (aka turkey choke) and that's one of the hittin'est guns I've shot. My sister, four years younger and smaller than me, tried it out with 3" magnums and did fine with it.

While I think your friend oughta try out the 870 in either 12 or 20 guage, I still think the leverguns are a real good idea. She oughta try 'em all and find out what she likes. That other situation scrat told of... some guys are ego driven idiots and their girlfriends might fall into that trap seeing it didn't bother them, then be scared to keep shooting. Your friend needs to consider not all guns are the same and she just needs to find what she likes.

nobody_special
February 28, 2007, 05:32 PM
Thanks everyone.

I think I'll wait until she's had some time to practice with a .22, and then recommend that she choose from the following:

Primary choices:
A full-power .30 (308, 30-06) rifle using low-recoil ammunition
Marlin 1894C in 357/38spc or 1894SS in 44mag/44spc
shotgun

As secondary choices:
Ruger mini-30
SKS

The Grand Inquisitor
February 28, 2007, 06:36 PM
If you lived in a free state I would recommend getting her a TANTAL or an AK74U in 5.45x39. 5.45 has remarkably little recoil, is nicely accurate and is also a smaller cartridge which helps make the rifle nice and light. Also, it doesn't hurt that the rifle is damn near indestructible and very resistant to user forgetfulness (regarding cleaning and such).

All that said, I think getting an M1 Carbine is your best bet (assuming they're not illegal in Cali). I have an USGI Carbine which serves me nicely when it comes to letting people who are of small stature or who want light recoil their first time shooting.

The Carbine is very user friendly, light, compact, has very little recoil, and uses a cartridge that is small and light yet powerful enough for personal defense. Also, if it is possible to purchase 20 or 30 round mags in Arizona (or any other free state) you can have a good amount of ammo in a reasonably small amount of space.

mustanger98
February 28, 2007, 06:43 PM
TGI, Part of the OP's stated purpose for the weapon is bear/cougar defense. While the M1 Carbine is a great weapon, .30Carbine ammo ain't gonna cut it, hence the other recommendations.

AndyC
February 28, 2007, 07:54 PM
Hmmm, for bear - ok, howzabout a .499LW or .50 Beowulf upper on an AR lower? ;)

Neo-Luddite
February 28, 2007, 08:04 PM
She's a novice--I wouldn't hand her a semi-auto anything for concern over malfunction. If large predators are the concern, a lever gun in 45/70 gov.
is probably a good way to go for anyone. It doesn't need to be loaded to the maximum to handle the job and the bullet mass is there. Managed recoil from that platform would still be potent.

Barbara
February 28, 2007, 08:16 PM
Shotgun.

gezzer
February 28, 2007, 09:24 PM
.243 Winchester in anyone youth model rifle. Use prem ammo as in Nosler partitions or Barns X and don't look back. Black bears are not Kodiaks and kill almost as easy as deer IMHO.

MatthewVanitas
February 28, 2007, 10:06 PM
Does anyone have the stats on Bear/Cougar attacks vs. People attacks in CA? Am I correct in the impression that you're far, far more likely to have people trouble than animal trouble?


Do be sure, as a previous poster mentioned, to compare the 1892-type leverguns (Puma, Rossi, Legacy, Navy Arms, etc) rifles to the heavier Marlin/Winchester variants.

The 1892 types are also available in 16" and in stainless, and are a bit trimmer in build. Maybe a little more affordable too, and also able to be slicked up and tricked out.

-MV

nobody_special
February 28, 2007, 10:39 PM
Does anyone have the stats on Bear/Cougar attacks vs. People attacks in CA? Am I correct in the impression that you're far, far more likely to have people trouble than animal trouble?

I don't have any stats offhand, but I know that bears were a major problem in some camping areas and parks in northern CA. Actual bear attacks are rare, but they have been known to cause a lot of damage. The fish & wildlife people used to relocate bears to less inhabited areas (and kill "repeat offenders" I think).

Still, even though bear or mountain lion attacks are rare, they do happen.

mustanger98
February 28, 2007, 10:45 PM
I think the statisticians among us here need to figure this... a bear or cat attack happens and the victim is found half eaten, they find the bear or cat and kill it... a lot of good it did the victim. What are the chances of it happening? When it happens to you, regardless of what the chances had been, it just became a 100% chance. It's better to be prepared to deal with it when it happens than not. Armed for such an occassion as bear or cat attack is no different to being armed for the self defense against human predators we usually discuss on this board.

MatthewVanitas
February 28, 2007, 11:06 PM
I'm not saying folks shouldn't be prepared, just saying that if X assaults and murders are committed in your county by humans, and .00001X by cougars, and .00000001X by bears, it sounds a little odd to say "what gun for cougars and bears?"

I'm honestly asking if the critters are anywhere near as much a problem as other humans (especially for folks not immediately engaged in hiking in forests). If human attacks outweigh animal attacks by the margin I assume they do, then it says interesting things about us culturally that lions, tigers, and bears (oh my) spring to mind rather than the mundane dangers of our fellow man.

Okay, googling up stats from CA Fish 'n' Game. California averages (1) cougar attack per year (counting injuries and fatalities), and less than (1) black bear attack per year.

In contrast, CA has 2,500 murders in 2005, and 114,000 aggravated assaults, presumably by OTL/B (other than lions/bears). ( http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/cacrime.htm ) Before anyone says "that's just L.A. gangbangers", I'll note that the hippie paradise of Mendocino county had 5 murders and 257 aggravated assaults in 2000. ( http://www.fedstats.gov/mapstats/crime/county/06045.html )

You're 1,250 times more likely to be killed by a human than a critter in CA. Not saying you should go ahead and pet the pointy kitty, just saying.

Does it matter to the one person a year who gets schwacked by a fuzzy? Dang betcha. Does it outweigh the dangers faced from other humans, traffic accidents, and heart disease? I vote no.


Sticking w/ my original recommendation of an 1892-type levergun. If I couldn't have an AR-15, I'd have one of those.

-MV

nobody_special
March 1, 2007, 12:16 AM
I'm not saying folks shouldn't be prepared, just saying that if X assaults and murders are committed in your county by humans, and .00001X by cougars, and .00000001X by bears, it sounds a little odd to say "what gun for cougars and bears?"

Not really. Bear or cougar attacks on people are rare. It is more common for bears to get into trouble looking for food... ripping doors off cars or homes, going after domestic animals or livestock, and it is legal and acceptable in CA to shoot a bear that is causing property damage or threatening a person, pet, or livestock (so long as you report it to fish & wildlife the next day).

Libertyteeth
March 1, 2007, 12:21 AM
Having an appropriate rifle or shotgun would be great.

But in addition, she should consider whether she is always going to want to be carrying one. If she gets a .357 mag lever action, for instance, a .357 revolver would also be a good thing to have. Often, I find that when I'm out where cougars or bears (or moose or wild dog packs or range bulls or humanoid predators) could be trouble, I'm doing something that renders a long gun kind of impractical, such as fly fishing. A handgun option is nice to have.

rangerruck
March 1, 2007, 01:10 AM
m1's are too wussy, aks are no no's, and you need a bullet with some pop.
a lever gun in 357 or 44 would be nice, but it's gonna kick. I think cali accepts Saigas, that are marked eaa or raa, not Isevsk, ( too russian, oohhh). that in a nice 762.39 or better yet, a 308, would pull a nice job, with much less recoil.

mustanger98
March 1, 2007, 01:24 AM
a lever gun in 357 or 44 would be nice, but it's gonna kick.

Whether the gun kicks or not depends on how well it fits the user. Length of pull can be shortened if necessary. Ammo's the other consideration; some's harsher or milder than others. If people'd come off of that "little lady" kick and let her figure out what she likes...

I looked over a Saiga once... didn't think much of it.

Editted to add:

If people'd come off of that "little lady" kick and let her figure out what she likes...

Wait a minute... this is the internet. She's still out there in real life. She'll figure out what she likes regardless of what the keyboard commandoes say.

mustanger98
March 1, 2007, 01:27 AM
If she gets a .357 mag lever action, for instance, a .357 revolver would also be a good thing to have.

I consider that a real good idea too. So you get a levergun and revolver in the same cartridge, you only have to have one kind of ammo. It cuts out a lot of confusion for a beginner. Some folks consider a combination like that to be all they'll ever need.:cool:

pete f
March 1, 2007, 02:04 AM
I would wonder why the semi part?

frankly I would suggest the Ruger 77/22 and the ultra compact or ultra light, Ruger 77 in a modest deer cartridge. The 77/22 for her to learn on and to keep practicing with. A .22 of the same pattern as the main gun means she is going to shoot and it will cost her 10 bucks for a month or summers worth of shooting. adding in the larger rifle like the 77 UL, you get a light weight, compact, easy to use because it feels the same as her little .22 and it will handly what ever she fairly hits.

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=7984&return=Y

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=7874&return=Y

Just my two cents my daughter used a slightly shortened 6.5 x 55 for a lot of deer and never once winced from recoil

nobody_special
March 1, 2007, 02:25 AM
I would wonder why the semi part?

She's learning on a 10/22, so a semi will be familiar territory. Also for a defensive firearm, I think the ability to make quick follow-up shots is important.

If she gets a .357 mag lever action, for instance, a .357 revolver would also be a good thing to have.

First she would need to learn to not flinch when firing a 9mm pistol. Hey, I expect a .357 revolver would be a bit much for me. I love my 9mm, but the one time I tried a Glock in .40S&W, well, I flinched a lot... :o

rangerruck
March 1, 2007, 03:46 AM
not much about saigas? many dudes here will tell you , that for overall quality, accuracy, upgradeability, and price, they are double tough to beat. For under 300 bucks, you can get them in 223 or 762.39, with 16 or 20 inch bbls, syth or wood furniture. then go over to tapco or some other folks, and put in a buffer, and the small ak stock for smaller people. You will then have a small type ak, that is accurate, and runs very smooth. 308 is about 100 bucks more.

rangerruck
March 1, 2007, 03:48 AM
also you could get an old remmy in 642 or 742, they are semi's , that are small and lightweight, and i think you can get ten round mags for them at gunshows, maybe even Academy. they come with 4 or 5 rounders.

MRGAMBOA
March 1, 2007, 05:35 AM
Bears, Cougars, most of these animals would run away if they heard a gun shot. Would you guys fire a round say up in the air to warn the animal? Or is killing it the bottom line?

nobody_special
March 1, 2007, 05:51 AM
Bears, Cougars, most of these animals would run away if they heard a gun shot. Would you guys fire a round say up in the air to warn the animal? Or is killing it the bottom line?

Your third post on THR and you're asking how blood-thirsty people are? :scrutiny:

First: never shoot into the air. You must know where the bullet is going to end up.

To answer the question, it depends on circumstance. Any normal bear or mountain lion wouldn't even need a warning shot - either you'd never see them in the first place (likely in the case of a mountain lion) or they'd leave pretty quickly as soon as you make some noise and are noticed.

If they don't leave, but don't seem to pay you much attention... then they're probably habituated, and that can be dangerous; a warning shot might be appropriate (into the ground, not the air). If they're coming after you, then a warning shot is foolish.

JShirley
March 1, 2007, 05:55 AM
Most folks here would say shooting a round into the air is pretty irresponsible. Also, it sounded like this woman would be defending herself on her property, probably in her home.

Personally, I'd want all rounds to go into the large, furry, toothy object instead of my walls, furniture, or appliances.

If she's getting a Ruger 10/22, and you want commonality of action, a Ruger 99/44 Deerfield would seem to be indicated. 4+1, .44 Mag is common, and it looks like a 10/22...and it's semiauto. Works fine on humans, with appropriate ammo, too. :p

John

MRGAMBOA
March 1, 2007, 06:38 AM
Is the quote function disabled for some people?


As to the blood thirst comment, maybe that's why it took me three years to actually post here. Nah j/k .:D

I just wanted some input as to what other people would do. I try not to think that everybody here is "blood thirst".

If an animal is charging you, you are pretty much screwed anyways. You wouldn't see him till it's too late. In most cases that wouldn't be enough time to draw a weapon. If the animal is minding his own business, then you might take him down. That was pretty much the question. I feel like most of these big game animals who attack people, (rare) would only be hunted down if the shooter had enough time. Do you really have time to defend your self in an actual attack? Or do many people just shoot these animals just for the simple reason cause they are there. Sorry, didn't mean to hijack thread.

rangerruck
March 1, 2007, 11:07 AM
hey, that is a good idea, the ruger in 44 semi auto. Also there is the marlin camp carbine, wow !!! I forgot all about those two. very light and small and handy.

JShirley
March 1, 2007, 12:47 PM
Mr. G,

Welcome to THR. Actually, many people have successfully fought off black bears even without firearms (though usually suffering injuries).

Considering the way the original post was phrased- not a dedicated shooter, and looking for a rifle- seems that the lady in question wants something to defend her house. Kinda hard to consider folks bloodthirsty when they shoot a dangerous animal at close quarters in their house, wouldn't you think?

Anyway, feel free to start a new thread re this in the hunting forum.

John

mustanger98
March 1, 2007, 04:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertyteeth
If she gets a .357 mag lever action, for instance, a .357 revolver would also be a good thing to have.

First she would need to learn to not flinch when firing a 9mm pistol. Hey, I expect a .357 revolver would be a bit much for me. I love my 9mm, but the one time I tried a Glock in .40S&W, well, I flinched a lot...

Not really. Just start shooting the .357 revolver with light .38spl target loads and work her way up according to her comfort level. People hear ".357" and think it's some big loud hard-kicking deal, but it's really not as far as shootability. It depends on the fit between the shooter and the gun. If she's never fired a handgun, she can start out without any fear-induced bad habits. .40S&W is not .357mag. If she can get a heavier revolver... K-frame or N-frame... the weight soaks up recoil... and as I said, start with light ammo and she can work her way into the hotter loads as she feels like it. Just because you flinched with a .40 don't mean she will with a .357.

Brian Williams
March 1, 2007, 04:44 PM
My daughter
My Marlin 1894C

http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=30826&d=1131141913

Yes, I know Eye Protection



application to date my daughter (http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=44610&d=1157762221):evil: :D

____hoot____
March 1, 2007, 10:35 PM
If she is new and starting with a Ruger 10/22 the Ruger 44 carbine is the way to go. Bought one new in about 1969, hardly any kick and a shorter length of pull that I liked. Solid gun but only about six pounds. About the only thing that turned me off was the coarse sights.
Get Real! Shooting in the air past an animal's head in a real life dangerous situation is the only option. You have to use the shock of the blast wave of the warning shot to maximum benifit and keep your sights close to being on target. Save that shooting in the ground stuff for the movies, cause you are much more likely to hit accidentally somebody or the animal with a ricochette of a rock pavement etc.etc.etc.etc. than shooting in the air.

mustanger98
March 1, 2007, 10:39 PM
Warning shots are a load of crap. The first thing you learn about defensive use of a firearm is if you're not prepared to shoot 'em, don't bother to get the gun out. We're talking about a matter of stopping them, regardless of how many legs they have, before they kill you.

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