[dubious]

Hi folks...

What are the finer points of using my trusty Iron Sights (blade, peep, etc.)? I'm talking about how to focus your eyes, and how to line up your target. I'm not talking about the more general points of aiming that are common to all other forms of sights like stance, breath control, trigger pull, etc. I'm trying to limit the scope of this question, but feel free to ramble a little bit so we can all learn something.

When I'm aiming with Iron sights, I tend to use one eye, though I find it possible to aim with two eyes open using peeps. I usually first focus on the rear sight, and line that up with the front sight. Then I focus on the front sight and line that up with the target. Then I drop my focus back to the front sight. Usually there's several corrections as this point, as i recheck the previous steps. Then for the shot, I focus on the front sight with an unfocused picture of the target... and then click until it goes boom!

I'm a barely competent marksman, so don't take my example as the end all of advice.

And people, please forgive me if this has been posted before ad nauseum... any links to resources or other threads are appreciated.

Cheers!
Dubious

"Naturally the common people don't want war... All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." - Hermann Göring (Head of the German Luftwaffe, 2nd in Command of The Third Reich)

[1911 guy]

Switching focus from one plane to another, rear sight, front sight and target, will hold you back when you're shooting. Your focus should be on the front sight only. The target and rear sight will be visible but somewhat fuzzy. How fuzzy depends on how good your eyes are.

The other two mainstays of rifle shooting are directly related. Find the angle to the target that is natural. Mount the rifle, then move your feet to point it toward the target. Muscling a rifle on target will result in misses most of the time. The second is keeping bone under the rifle. Your left elbow should be directly under the stock. These two things keep the rifle much more steady and your eyes aren't chasing the front blade all over creation.

BTW, shooting with both eyes is the only way to go. The first time you see the buck of a lifetime, close one eye and can't see him through the scope will drive that home. And make you cry.

[wanderinwalker]

Like 1911 guy said, front sight, front sight, front sight. Once you remember that, the rest falls into place pretty easily.

Some forms of irons suit certain people and styles better than others. I'm an aperture-sights shooter, and can do OK with blade and notch, but they aren't my favorite. I really like target style aperture-aperture sights, as all one has to do is line up all of the round objects and go for it. But they're not very practical on a field rifle, IMO.

Find your natural point of aim (stance), relax, focus on the front sight and TAKE THE SHOT! I find I blow more shots by trying to dress-up and refine a sight picture than by just taking the first one that looks right. If your NPA is on, you should be able to just settle the front sight and squeeze.

And I too shoot with both eyes open, which I find easier with an aperture than with a notch and blade.

[hps1]

When I'm aiming with Iron sights, I tend to use one eye, though I find it possible to aim with two eyes open using peeps. I usually first focus on the rear sight, and line that up with the front sight. Then I focus on the front sight and line that up with the target. Then I drop my focus back to the front sight. Usually there's several corrections as this point, as i recheck the previous steps. Then for the shot, I focus on the front sight with an unfocused picture of the target... and then click until it goes boom!


As 1911 said, try to learn to shoot with both eyes open. Closing one eye causes undue eyestrain on the dominant eye. To determine your dominant eye, hold a finger up at arms length with both eyes open, point at an object, then close first one eye and then other. When you close the dominant eye, the finger will no longer be pointing at the object. You should be use your dominant eye for shooting.

If using a peep sight, forget it is there. Your eye will automatically seek out the center of the peep so that all you need to focus on the front sight. As 1911 said, both rear sight and target will appear slightly out of focus. Open rear sights are a bit more difficult to use, especially with older eyes, but the [B]front sight[B] is still [B]the[B] most important to focus on.

Remember, you have about 7 seconds to break the shot before your vision begins to suffer (blur) due to lack of oxygen. The eyes are the first to suffer when the body is deprived of oxygen. Don't admire the sight picture, concentrate on breaking the shot within 7 seconds.

One tip to help you leave your non-dominat eye open is to place a strip of opaque scotch tape on the lens of your glasses to block the vision of your non-dominant eye. Old time target shooters used a blinder cut from cardboard and slipped it under their glasses. The scotch tape allows light to enter and seems much less distracting to me. After you do this a while, you will find it easy to concentrate on sight picture while still allowing you to view the "whole picture". This is even more important in hunting.

Regards,
hps

[ZeSpectre]

Front sight
Front sight
Front sight

Also keep your sight on target for a beat or two after you've fired your shot. When I was trained you did this for two reasons.

The first was that a lot of people shoot and then lower the gun to see what they shot BUT what they are actually doing is beginning to lower their gun BEFORE the bullet has actually finished leaving the barrel. So basically it's follow through. Shoot, pause, look. I don't know why this is such a big deal with iron sights vs scopes but it really is for a lot of people.

The second reason is that if you shoot a badguy and the first shot doesn't stop them, you are still on target. If you lower the gun you have to re-acquire and then shoot which is much slower.

[Quintin Likely]

Front sight, front sight, front sight. Don't matter what the target looks like, dress that front sight up, align it in the rear aperture and get it as crisp and clear as possible.

[30Cal]

FOCUS ON THE FRONT SIGHT AND THE FRONT SIGHT ONLY. Verify that it's aligned with the rear sight--if it's not, move your head. For casual purposes, it does take care of itself to a certain degree, but if you want to really lay them in, you need to put some conscious effort into sight alignment.

BLACKEN YOUR SIGHTS. Use a candle, match, burning plastic, carbide lamp, or sight black spraycan stuff. It makes a big difference and will help you FOCUS ON THE FRONT SIGHT.

Break the shot quickly. Take the first good shot you see through the sights. The longer you spend looking at the sight, the worse the shot is getting (despite what your eyes are telling you).

I get best results if I crowd the very top of the aiming black. I break the shot when I see just the slightest hint of the target above the sight. I think this minimizes the temptation to shift focus onto the target (or somewhere forward of the front sight).

[hagar]

Good advice so far. You also have to find what works for you as far as sight picture. I have been shooting a 6 o clock hold, but my shooting really went downhill in the last couple of years because of astigmatism and deteriorating vision. I am pushing 50, and on the advice of some of my more senior range buddies I changed to a center mass sight picture, and my prone slow fire scores improved dramatically. Before I was getting wild flyers every now and again. It still feels a little weird to me, but I cannot argue with success.

[AndyC]

With a rifle, front sight - with a handgun, I focus on the target. I keep also keep both eyes open - works for me ;)

[hps1]

hagar: I have been shooting a 6 o clock hold, but my shooting really went downhill in the last couple of years because of astigmatism and deteriorating vision. I am pushing 50, and on the advice of some of my more senior range buddies I changed to a center mass sight picture, and my prone slow fire scores improved dramatically.

When I was young I shot a 6 o'clock hold but with just a hair of white showing between the front post and the bull. As my eyes got worse with age, had to give up the white and use true 6 o'clock hold. Then my groups began to string vertically because I could not distinguish between the top of front sight and bottom of bull. Was pushing black on one shot & 6'oclock on the next and couldn't see the difference or degree if black I was pushing.

Switched to a bolt gun w/aperature front & rear and never looked back. Not worth a hoot for hunting, but the bee's knees for bullseye.

On other sight picture that works very well for 600-1000 Yds is the "frame hold". Just find the zero for a sight picture which shows equal target (white) on top and left and right of the front post. The blade completely covers the black. The thin NM front does not work as well (for me) as the standard front (wider) sight for this. Try it, you might like it. This is with the M1 or M14.

Regards,
hps

[LHB1]

Quote: "With a rifle, front sight - with a handgun, I focus on the target."

Nope. With a pistol it is even MORE important to FOCUS ON THE FRONT SIGHT for accurate shooting.

Good shooting and be safe.
LB

[AndyC]

Nope - I ain't shooting targets with a handgun, I'm focusing on the threat :neener:

[PedalBiker]

Aperatue (Peep) sight as close to the eye as safely possible. Smallest aperature that light will allow (I have 4 different sizes). The best front sight is also as small as conditions allow. Longer sight radius is a big boost (hence the long barrels on old military guns).

I recently shot an 8" group at 100 yards with foster slugs on an open sighted slug barrel, but it sure was a stretch for my old eyes.

For me it's aperature sights or optics. Open sights are just not fun anymore.

[LHB1]

Quote: "Nope - I ain't shooting targets with a handgun, I'm focusing on the threat ."

Hope you manage to hit the threat before it hits you. I'll continue to shoot my way.

Good shooting and be safe.
LB

[funfaler]

When you have your "Natural Point of Aim" (NPOA) correct, your breathing should result in an up and down movement of the front sight. As you breath, the front sight should pass verticaly through the target, when it reaches the desired impact point, that is when you hold your breath. This will result in a relaxed "aim", then you increase the back pressure on the trigger, concentrating on the front sight only, the target and rear sight will be somewhat fuzzy. When the trigger breaks, and the shot goes off, take a mental "snap shot" of what the sight picture was in relation to the target. Then you will know where you were actually aiming when the shot broke and will know if your point of impact is equal to point of aim for that shot.

I highly recommend getting to an Appleseed shoot, you will learn this down pat and be confident in putting lead out to 500 yards with iron sights.

http://www.rwva.org/yabbse/index.php

Seeing steel swing at 500 yards after an Iron Sight shot, makes your heart warm;)

[thereisnospoon]

I second the motion that you attend an Appleseed Shoot...

If you look in the link to RWVA you'll find one near you!

Spoon

[Dave R]

IMHO, its simpler that all that. Its all about a consistent sight picture. If you can make the sight picture the same every time, and you can adjust the sights, you can make the bullets go where you want them.

A finer front post (or other sight) makes it easier to make the sight picture consistent. A thicker front post may obscure the target or make it harder to get a small target lined up with the big blade.

An aperture rear sight is easier to align than a notch rear, at least for me.

I can shoot relatively small groups at 200 yards with my CETME, because it has a (modified) fine front post and a small aperture rear. But I need a target of the right size to "dot the i" consistently each time.

[AndyC]

Hope you manage to hit the threat before it hits you. I'll continue to shoot my way.
Been there, done that, seen the elephant, etc, so kindly don't preach at me. You don't know me, I didn't ask for your sneers, so you do whatever you like *shrug*

[hps1]

Pedal Biker: [Smallest aperature that light will allow (I have 4 different sizes). The best front sight is also as small as conditions allow. /QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Dave R:
Smallest aperature that light will allow (I have 4 different sizes). The best front sight is also as small as conditions allow.

And:
But I need a target of the right size to "dot the i" consistently each time.



I like small aperatures as well. My rear sight has an infinately adjustable aperature which I set to sharpen the front sight to the max. Once that is done, I choose the proper diameter front aperature to sharpen the target as best as possible for existing light conditions. Beware, of getting too small, however, as too small an aperature hastens eye strain and can cause groups to open as string progresses. The problem in selecting very small aperatures can be compounded on days with broken clouds as the sun is intermittently covered by drifting clouds.

Narrow front sights are great for youger eyes, and when same width as the aiming circle will shrink horizontal spread.

Careful selection of aperature size can make iron sighted rifles very competitive to scoped rifles. The following picture is of a 3" diameter spotter which was placed in my first shot at 600 yards and subsequently moved to each succesive shot until the 14th shot hit the wooden spindle holding it in the target. The rifle was a Mod. 70 30-06 target rifle w/aperature sights and was shot from prone position, no artificial support (other than the rifle sling).

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid201/p5d2579d0adee8dd7ef56243cf0f8e3f2/f01a9b81.jpg

Don't sell iron sights short, but enjoy them while you can; you'll know when it's time to mount that scope.:uhoh:

As Dave R said, Its all about a consistent sight picture. If you can make the sight picture the same every time, and you can adjust the sights, you can make the bullets go where you want them.
, and maybe a couple of other things like breath control, trigger control, natural aim point, ..................... But that's another story, and ain't it fun?!;)

Regards,
hps

[rangerruck]

i love using sights, but it really depends on how good your eyes are as well. For instance, i allways use the front point of the front site, to split in half the target i am shooting at. even when i am shooting 1 inch dots at 50 yards, i split that target to where if i get a good focus on the circle dot, i only want to see the top half. mind you, this is for target shooting, and diff types of shootign may not allow me this kind of time or support, to get off this kind of shot.
i never look at the back site if it is a peep type, even when i use a typical v type rear site, i look at it, just to line up the top of the front site, with the most vertical lines of the v , in the rear, once i do that, i dont use the rear site any more.

[LHB1]

andyc quote: "I didn't ask for your sneers, so you do whatever you like *shrug*

I did not sneer nor include a rude icon nor use impolite language. Only you did that.

Good shooting and be safe.
LB

[AndyC]

Ah, I see - you just pontificate by posting unsolicited advice based on your opinion and masquerading as fact. Ho-kay... whatever floats your boat, chum.

[ZeSpectre]

Okay folks, let's get back on the high road or risk getting the thread closed. (I.E. attack the post, not the poster).

[kludge]

me? with iron sights, both eyes open focused on target.

[hobbeeman]

1911guy "Your left elbow should be directly under the stock."

Where is it acceptable to rest your elbow? or is this bound in the sling?

[1911 guy]

Ideally, your left arm will be looped up in a sling and pulled tight under the rifle. How tight? Lots of competitive shooters have pulled the sling swivels loose from the rifle stock. Yep, that tight. That's why they wear padded shooting jackets. You and I won't normally need that, just loop up snug.

Whether you use a sling or not, keep the elbow under the rifle. With quite a few rifles, I actually rest my elbow on my ribcage when I can't use a sling (muzzleloader or High Power offhand position).

When you do have a "field expedient" rest to use, keep your actual elbow off of it. Rest the back side of your upper arm, if possible. For the same reason you put your elbows outside your knees when shooting from sitting position, it minimizes wobble instead of amplifying it.

[AndyC]

An open apology to LHB1:

I owe you an apology; I was completely out-of-line by taking offence at what you said about focusing on the front sight.

You see, the funny thing is that I actually agree with that technique in almost every instance - I know for a fact that one will shoot more accurately that way.

However, I also need to explain my perspective a bit. I know that people's eyes focus on the person who is the threat, be it on the street or during war - it's just human instinct. Granted, one can try to train this away and sometimes be successful - it depends on the individual. I prefer not to fight against this instinct but to embrace it - but doing so comes with a caveat.

If someone is experienced enough with firearms to be able to subconsciously pick up the sight-picture while being focused on the threat, in practical terms one is able to be effective. In other words, even while focused on my target, I know when my sights are aligned - I shoot where I look (as can most of those who compete in high-speed shooting sports for example IDPA/IPSC with iron sights).

If one is not experienced, this technique is useless, perhaps even dangerous, so for those folks I used to train, I discovered a way for them to get extremely quick, center hits at fighting distances. I won't get into it here, but essentially it uses the front sight as a gross indicator while focused on the target.

The question is, how much pinpoint-accuracy does one need in a fight? Personally, I want as much as possible without sacrificing my ability to see what the threat is doing. Personal example - I was swamped one evening by 4 men and I managed to disengage from them; while backpedalling I drew the CZ75 I carried in those days and aimed at the leader who was struggling with the safety-catch of his FEG (Walther PPK-clone) pistol. I didn't want to pull the trigger unless I was absolutely given no choice, and while I was groaning inside my head ("No, damnit, don't make me shoot, don't make me shoot, if you get that safety off and you raise that weapon I'm going to have to drop you") I was totally focused on what he was doing. I needed that focus in order to know when to shoot, whereas if it had been a front-sight focus, that man would be dead today.

I have so much more to say on this subject but I'm becoming long-winded and boring; it's also easier to demonstrate than type out. In short, use the front-sight wherever possible - my point is that it won't always be possible unless one has almost superhuman self-control and even then, there is the likelihood of missing critical information, so I prefer to prepare accordingly.

No hard feelings on my side - again, I apologise for taking offence and coming across like a d*ckhead.

[Afy]

What about non aperture sights?

The U or V rear?

[LHB1]

AndyC,
I appreciate the thought and kind words. Whether you were right or wrong, one indication of a man's character is the ability to admit it when he thinks he has done something wrong. You certainly measure up by that standard. No hard feelings on this end either. We don't have to agree on every detail as long as we can agree to disagree. If you ever get down to Houston, give me a call and we will go shooting at the local outdoor range.

Good shooting and be safe.
LB

[AndyC]

Good deal ;)

[Caimlas]

Here's what I do:

For aperture (standard M16 blade):

Align the top of the blade with where I want to hit, and just look through the aperture, with my eye as close to the aperture as is physically safe. I used to prefer blade/notch sights, but now prefer aperture, as my eyesight isn't as good as when I was 12 due to all the time I spend on these damn computers. :)

For open (V, U, etc.):

I've got focal depth problems, so I've got a difficult time lining them up due to one or the other being blurry, but generally I'll try the same approach as with pistols (stated below). If that's not possible (blackened sights are difficult for me to align without colored marks on them to give me relational perspective), I'll generally stick the front blade above the rear just enough to give me a noticeable signature (and adjust the sights appropriately on those rifles) to let me know I've got it centered - otherwise the front and rear blur into each other too much.

Pistol:

I line up the sights so there are 3 dots in a row, and then look at/focus on the target with the sight 'line' out of focus; focusing on the front post just obscures my vision of the target - and for self-defense, I see this as dangerous. I can hit bowling pins with regularity with my Taurus PT111 @ 25 yards doing this. (Though I'd like to get competent at point shooting - something I'll have to work on.)

Shooting stance:

I just point my body at the target and then move the gun to my shoulder and don't 'muscle' it into place. Method of support varies depending on the specific longarm: sometimes I'll use a sling; sometimes I'll prop my elbow on my ribs; sometimes I'll hold the rifle on the handguard, and sometimes I'll hold closer towards the receiver/in the front of the magazine well. It all depends on which technique gets the best stability and balance for a given rifle. Left arm is generally at a 45 degree angle to the body unless my left arm is resting on my ribs, in which case it's pulled in a bit more for a more central support - whatever feels natural, basically.

Breathing:

Where I'm trying for a smaller group, I'll moderate my breathing. Three deep breaths, and on the third breath I'll exhale only to the point where it's comfortable to hold it for several seconds, steady my shot while slowly exhaling, and take my shot when my lungs are at about a quarter total capacity, or right before exhaling would become uncomfortable. I don't hold my breath for more than 3 or 4 seconds all told, per shot. If I can't make it in that amount of time, my body will start getting a little shaky. I'll take a breather and then start over.

[James T Thomas]

Please refer to the post by "hardhit777;" My new Garand!"Pics on p.2.

The third and fourth frames down depict a sight picture with the shooter's focus on the rear sight, and then with the eye focused on the front sight blade. The rear sight in that one is out of focus; blurry, as is the target -the wall.

This is as it should be.

Not a fine point, but fundamental that some have incorrect.

[hardhit777]

He he, I'm glad my pictures are good for something other than looking at:) Here I'll post the pic. in this thread too. It took me about 20 tries to get this picture. This is the correct site picture you should see through the sites on an m1 garand. Rear site fuzzy, front site in focus, and the target blurry.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/andrewfreemanemail/4ga012.jpg

HH

[Nematocyst]

I've got nothing to offer except support (keep it up!),
a general comment or three, and a couple of questions.

I've been subscribed to this thread for a few days, reading for as long as my mind will allow (trying to visualize the advice that some are offering in words can be really challenging; sometimes makes my head hurt :eek: ).

(HH, your picture is worth a billion words. ;)
I hope to see more images in this thread in coming days and weeks.)

I'm motivated to read, though, because I just recently bought the first center fire rifle I've owned in years, and it has iron sights: a Marlin 336 (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=258000).

My first trip to the range with Mr. 336 was ... um, a humbling experience. I did fine at 25 yds, mediocre at 50. At 100 yds, I was able to keep shots on a 12" paper target, but little more. (Not bad for 56 year old eyes and a new rifle, I guess, but still, not what one might hope for.)

So, the experience motivated me to start considering sighting options. (Actually, I've been researching options for months in advance of buying the rifle; that experience just accelerated and refined the process.)

I've fancied a scope. (I have a Leupold VX-1 2-7X-28mm rimfire scope on my 39A, and like it for squirrel shooting.) I've especially been looking at scout scopes, like a Leupold scout, for the 336.

But the biggest part of me wants to keep some irons on it, even if only as backups.
I've been focusing on apertures and ghost rings.

Since the 336 is going to mainly be a deer rifle, mostly for < 100 m, instead of a target gun, I'm leaning towards ghost rings. In fact, I ordered a set of XS ghost rings (http://www.xssights.com/store/rifle.html) earlier tonight. I don't rule out a set of Williams FP later. I may also decide to go for that Leupold scout, or even a more traditional Leupold.

But for now, my focus (so to speak) is on the irons.

I understand one thing quite clearly: it's all about the front sight. (Unless the target is carrying a gun, then perhaps one may wish to spend more time focusing on the target and merely point shooting, as with a shotgun.)

However, I'm still trying to understand the following:


What, exactly, is the optimum relationship between the front sight and the target?
For example, should the target be "sitting" on top of the front post, or be covered by it?

What is the definition of "sight picture"?

OK, informative thread here.
I'll keep reading.

Thanks for all the advice.

Nem

[iamkris]

I use these charts in the Basic Rifle courses I teach for understanding sight picture. I made them up in PowerPoint and saved them as .jpg

[Nematocyst]

Kris,

This one is one of those images worth a billion words.

It pretty much says everything I needed to know.

Thanks a billion.

Nem

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=54560&stc=1&d=1173339617

[g5reality]

Kris,
Yes Thanks. great illustration of proper sighting.

hardhit777,
Nice Picture

[revitup]

Wouldn't sighting the way that's described above be affected by bull's eye size and distance from the target?

[1911 guy]

Distance is a non issue, every sight in is for a particular distance. A rifle sighted in at 50 yards will impact differently at 200 yards. You just need to find the optimum sight-in distance for your rifle and load. That goes for .22 rimfires, AR's, .30 caliber bolt actions and everything else, too.

Bullseye size does make a difference. Make the bull as small as you can see if your interested in shooting anything but paper with the rifle. I use a 2" red bull on a black background at 100 yards. For scoped rifles, I use a 1".

Folks who shoot strictly paper often use NRA targets and the rifle will shoot seriously high if you shoot at anything else. They put the post at the bottom of the black and get center hits, several inches above the top of the post.

[hps1]

However, I'm still trying to understand the following:

What, exactly, is the optimum relationship between the front sight and the target?
For example, should the target be "sitting" on top of the front post, or be covered by it?

What is the definition of "sight picture"?



Thanks to Kris's excellent illustration, for your hunting rifle, I would sight in, using his "pumpkin on a post" to hit "point of aim" (bullet strike would be at 6 o'clock on the bull) or perhaps 1" high of POA @ 100 yards. The 1" high sight setting would extend the 30-30 point blank hunting zero to perhaps 150 yards. In the field, just put the top of front sight where you wish to strike the target.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=54556&d=1173338065

Having long passed your youthful 56 years of age;), I do not hesitate to recommend either an aperature rear sight or a scope. Count your blessings if you are still able to see "open" rear sights, and, for that matter, a post front sight at 56 YOA. IIRC, I could still do so at that age, but not long after.

The aperature rear can be sized to sharpen your front sight, but beware of getting the hole too small, especially on a hunting rifle. Merit makes an adjustable aperature which is infinately adjustable as to opening size. Remember, your best hunting oportunities usually occur in poor light, so err on the large size and, when the sights are no longer useful, don't resist adding optics.

Regards,
hps

[Nematocyst]

This thread continues to offer great advice. I hope it becomes a sticky some day, or at least gets included in a THR suggested reading list.

Having long passed your youthful 56 years of age, I do not hesitate to recommend either an aperture rear sight or a scope.I, too, still think of myself as "youthful". (With hard driving dance music, I can still dance circles around 20 somethings, for example. :D It's only the eyes that are beginning to feel less "youthful".)

Having said that, yes, HPS, I'm definitely considering all the options, and do realize that the system will evolve as I get older. A scope of some kind is on the back burner for now, but not at all out of the picture.

As I mentioned above, I ordered a set of XS ghost rings yesterday. Not aperture sights in the traditional sense, perhaps (i.e., not like Williams FPs), but still moving in that direction. I thought I'd try them first as replacement for the buckhorn open sights on my 336.

{Added by edit: this thread has been very helpful in terms of learning how to properly use those new sites (and traditional buck horns as well if I ever use such sights again.}

If the GRs don't lead to desired results (or even if they do), I'll still try a set of Williams PF next (or something like the Merit's that you recommend).

After that, I'll go to a scope, either scout or traditional. (I'm even considering getting a set of either GR or FP's set up, and learn how to use them effectively, then mount a scout scope on for primary use with the GR or FP as back up.

I'm just going to play that by ear after some work with the modified irons.

Thanks! :)

Nem

[NASCAR_MAN]

hardhit777,

Thanks for posting the sight-alignment photo: it perfectly demonstrates how the rear sight will be slightly out-of-focus.

Now...if anyone thinks Hardhit777's photo is just a failure of his not to use the proper f-stop, I would like to refer you to illustration 3-4 of the Army's Basic Rifle Markmanship Manual which show a drawing of just such a sight picture and demonstrates the rear sight is going to appear blurry.

Focus of the eye. A proper firing position places the eye directly on line with the center of the rear sight. When the eye is focused on the front sight post, the natural ability of the eye to center objects in a circle and to seek the point of greatest light (center of the aperture) aid in providing correct sight alignment. For the average soldier firing at combat-type targets, the natural ability of the eye can accurately align the sights. Therefore, the firer can place the tip of the front sight post on the aiming point, but the eye must be focused on the tip of the front sight post. This causes the target to appear blurry, while the front sight post is seen clearly. Two reasons for focusing on the tip of the front sight post are:

Only a minor aiming error should occur since the error reflects only as much as the soldier fails to determine the target center. A greater aiming error can result if the front sight post is blurry due to focusing on the target or
other objects.

Focusing on the tip of the front sight post aids the firer in maintaining proper sight alignment (Figure 3-4).

http://www.scribd.com/doc/3602236/united-states-army-fm-239

As always: Front Sight...Front Sight.

Thanks.

NASCAR