[farmer7]

Hey folks,
I bought a Tikka T3 varmint in .223 last year,1 in 8 twist, I have put 1000 rounds of handloads through it now, but my best group has only JUST beaten 1" at 100 yards,a little disappointed! The bullets i have tried are : 50gr Hornady SX, 50gr Ballistic tips, 55gr Ballistic tips, 50gr TNT's, 52gr Speer hp's, 55gr V-max moly, 70gr speer semi-spitzer. I didn't know at the time,but i now believe with a 1 in 8 twist barrel i am supposed to get better results with heavier bullets. Is that correct? Any suggestions on what to try next? Dont really want to go heavier than 70gr. Also i live in a fairly remote part of Scotland and am kinda limited to what i can get my hands on powder wise. I have a few pounds of varget just now. So can anybody help me with a good load (using Varget!!) with say a 69gr sierra matchking? Am i destined to not be able to fire the lighter bullets accurately with a 1 in 8"? Or could it be I just have a bad rifle???? Any help would be greatly received!!!

[mc223]

You might try 26g Varget with a 60g V-Max bullet. Or perhaps 25g Varget with a 75 A-Max.

[Walkalong]

Ditto on Varget and the 60 Gr. V max. That should shoot well. I can get it to stabilize in an old .222 Mag, but must push it pretty hard.:evil:

Is your barrel clean? You have shot it a good bit. With the 8in1 twist the 50 & 55 Gr. bullets are not the best choice. 60 and up should do better for you. I am not sure where the bullet wieght would be to much. Others here can tell you.

[Sharps Shooter]

Hi Farmer and welcome to the forum!:)
I don't have any advice that would help you out, although I'm sure there are plenty of other members of THR who do. However, I have a question - when you wrote you're only getting 1" groups at 100 yards, how many shots are you talking about? Three shots in an inch at 100 yards is about the best my .223 will do with factory "remanufactured" ammo, which is all I shoot in that rifle. I'd be more than pleased with five shots in an inch at 100 yards.

[DogBonz]

Yes, with a 1:8, you should get better results with heavier bullets. If you can get your hands on them out there, try Berger VLD's. The Match Kings should be nice too.

[Ol` Joe]

I wouldn`t worry about the twist too much. I shoot a 1/9 twist Win M70 HV and the best load I have for it is with the 52 gr Sierra HP. The heavier bullets will fly better from the faster twist then they will with a slower one but lighter bullets should do almost if not as well. I have a buddy that has used 55 gr MKs in a AR with a 1/7 twist. I don`t believe you can over spin a bullet. Spin is used to stabilize the bullet and as long as the bullet is spun fast enough to stabilize more twist won`t hurt. You may spin one enough to get it to come apart though (Speer TnT is a weak jacketed bullet known to do this in fast twists or very high velocities) but that is a different problem IMO.
Have you took one bullet and varied the COL to see if the rifle has a "sweet spot" that it prefers the bullet seated to? I would play with one bullet and vary COL after working up a max load and see if accuracy gets better, then try other bullets seated to the same distance from the lands and see if the rifle has a wgt or bullet preferance.

[farmer7]

Thanks very much for the advice guys,what a useful site this is! Where i live most folks know very little about reloading,just gotta learn by trial and error!!

Walkalong, I clean the barrel maybe every 30-40 rounds,when you say i've shot it quite a bit, how long can i expect my barrel to last with 55gr loads at 3200fps or so?

Hi sharps shooter,the best it will do, if i'm lucky is an inch with 3 shot groups. I can shoot ok, my 25-06 Sendero will put 85gr ballistic tips into little ragged one-hole groups of 1/4 inch or so centre to centre.

What kind of bullet is the Berger VLD, varmint?? Anyway, thanks for the help everyone!

[farmer7]

Hey Ol'Joe, i have played around with the seating depth but with little success, also the magazine on the Tikka will not let me seat some of the bullets out as far as i'd like and single loading is not practical for me. Thanks for the advice.

[ocabj]

For 100 yard line, try flat base 50-55gr match bullets.

After that, try a 77gr BTHP. Sierra and Nosler are the most common. Berger just released a 77gr BTHP. You can also try the Hornady 75gr BTHP.

Or you could go with the VLD flavors like the Hornady 75gr A-Max or Berger 77/80 VLD. Or a Sierra 80gr. From what I understand, these won't fit in the Tikka magazine from what another poster stated, so you'll have to single feed these (like us AR shooters do).

[farmer7]

Thanks ocabj, the magazine thing sucks really, i dont know what they were thinking,giving me a 1in8 barrel with a stupid wee magazine. I have to seat any of the heavier bullets deep. I wish i could have an AR, would give the vermin round here a shock! Sadly our gun laws SUCK!!

[tikkat3]

I too have a 1-8" twist T3. 55gr V-MAX shot pretty well through it over 25.3gr H335 (as good as 0.38" groups). The heavier 75gr A-MAX also shoot well under 24.2gr Varget. Here I have been getting groups of between 0.373" and 0.737".

I shoot from a bipod with sandbags under the stock on a Land Rover bonnet - not the most stable of surfaces. Despite this (and the occasional - regular - shooter-induced flyer) the groups are not bad.

As far as the poxy magazine is concerned, the Tikka ones are easily modified with a Dremmel and a bit of SuperGlue or epoxy resin. I have done it and have the capacity to load rounds slightly in excess of 2.5" (own lands give a COL of about 2.485"). Look at this link for a good description of how to mofify the magazine to take longer rounds. http://www.airgunbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168586&highlight=tikkat3 / post #15)

[OlderFox]

I've got the same rifle. Purchased 2 yrs ago. Normal groups are 0.3-0.4 at 100.

My load is 55gn Win Bulk PS bullet over 20.6 gn of IMR4198 with Federal non-match primer.

Cheers

[billp]

Some .223 history from speer manuals.

http://www.prosefights.org/funpics/thr/speermanuals/19661.jpg

http://www.prosefights.org/funpics/thr/speermanuals/19662.jpg

http://www.prosefights.org/funpics/thr/speermanuals/19871.jpg

http://www.prosefights.org/funpics/thr/speermanuals/19872.jpg

Prototype 55 gr v-max and ss109 62.1 gr bullets continue to work great through stevens 200 [NO PRIMERS!].

We're now ready to load both to check for pressue with VARGET.

ss109 44 to 46 gr at .2 gr increments.

55 gr v-max 45 to 47 at .2 gr increments.

We're SUPER-SENSITIVE about pressure after suffering a .22-250 disaster in the 1970s. So we'll test for pressure first.

Oh, the 1966 speer manual was bought at the while elephant in spokane, wa in about 1967.

The 1987 speer manual was bought in albuquerque, nm.

regards from senior

[Hutch]

I wonder if the moly bullets have left some residue even yet in the barrel. Why don'tcha clean it very aggressively with Sweet's 7.62 and JB Bore Paste, and then go thru the break-in process again. I did that with a Remmy 700VS in .308 that wouldn't hold 'em in a coffee can at 100yds, and was able to get half-inch groups thereafter.

[billp]

We haven't tried varget in .223 yet. But we are about ready.

Varget is advertised to get about 3384 fps using 27.5 gr with 55 gr spr pt, win case, win sr primer, C.O.L. 2.200.

http://www.prosefights.org/funpics/thr/speermanuals/varget.jpg

We are moving ahead slowly (http://www.incwell.com/Biographies/SittingBull.html).

I am very concerned about pressure v temperature since in albuquerque average high temperatures range from about 46 F to 92 F. Lows during the winter are in the 20 F range.

[Walkalong]

Walkalong, I clean the barrel maybe every 30-40 rounds,when you say i've shot it quite a bit, how long can i expect my barrel to last with 55gr loads at 3200fps or so?

I only meant a lot if you had not cleaned. Some folks just don't do it enough. We get match winning accuracy from a Benchrest barrel for 3000 to maybe 4000 rounds, but they will still shoot great by all other standards for 1000's more.:)

Normal groups are 0.3-0.4 at 100.

You ought to be at matches beating our eyes out if you can do that consistently without flags or anything and bulk bullets. Try shooting 5 timed, 5 shot groups all in a row in all conditions and avg. them together. Then you will know what you and your rifle can do.

[farmer7]

Thanks very much for that link tikkat3, i will try it, i just wish they had had the common sense to do it themselves! I have 55gr v-max moly, accuracy-wise, would you expect them to shoot the same as non-moly? If so i will chuck the moly ones and get the non-moly - i hate cleaning after moly coated bullets! I actually managed two 5 shot 3/4" groups today with the moly v-max and 27.3 varget and , so hopefully with some fine tuning i can improve it.

Hutch i WILL throw the moly bullets as far away as i can and clean the barrel very throughly!!! Thanks for the advice. Thanks also walkalong, useful to know.

[farmer7]

Walkalong, you sound like you would know a bit being in benchrest. Can you tell me how far the 55gr v-max is likely to stay stable? I presume the 69gr sierras will stay stable further???

Also, if i get on well with the sierra matchkings, does anyone know of their performance on vermin, i know it is not designed for that being a target bullet, but i just WONDERED being an HP would it do for say foxes and crows. Or is it inhumane????

[P-32]

SMK's do have a hollow point. They have a hollow point because of the way the jacket is drawn, not because they are meant to expand on impact.


I don`t believe you can over spin a bullet. Spin is used to stabilize the bullet and as long as the bullet is spun fast enough to stabilize more twist won`t hurt. You may spin one enough to get it to come apart though (Speer TnT is a weak jacketed bullet known to do this in fast twists or very high velocities) but that is a different problem IMO.


I have lost points due to exploding bullets as they fly towards the target. I admit this was a 308 168 SMK some years back.

I also load 223 for a match tuned AR which has a very tight twist, 6 1/2 to 1. I got this twist in order to shoot 90 gr. SMK's at a 1000 but it's not going to happen any time soon.

My AR likes everything from 52 gr SMK's to 80 gr SMK's. I use Reloader 15 for powder and Remington 7 1/2's to start things off. Varget is a good powder too, but I understand Reloader 15 is made in Scottland under another name. 77's loaded to mag length are a favorite. The 80's are loaded long and are loaded one at a time.

I have also found primers can effect group size. Trying different primers is a must. You should be able to get the good German primers there easier than we can.

I hate cleaning moly as well. I shoot non moly bullets in my AR. Good luck, I would think the Tikka should be shooting tighter groups as well. Might want to do some deep cleaning and remove the copper.

[farmer7]

Thanks for that P32, good to be able to speak some folks who know something!

With your AR and the 1 in 6 1/2" do you have to keep the velocity down with the light bullets to prevent bullet break-up??

Also i didn't know that about the RL15, do you know what it is called over here? Thanks for the help.

[Walkalong]

If you have the right twist/velocity it will stabilize your bullet. This can all be looked up. If your bullet is stabilized at the start it will generally stay so throughout its flight. Longer and farther than most of us shoot. The High Power guys or the 1000 yard Benchrest guys can tell you all you need to know about that. In benchrest we shoot 100 and 200 yards mostly. We use barrels with the slowest twist that will stabilize our bullets because it is easier on the bullets and the tend to fly straighter. The manufacture's use a twist to stabilize the heaviest bullet they reasonably think you will use and will be spinning the lighter ones faster than necessary to stabilize them.:)

[billp]

Let me try to get the speer manual .233 jpgs to you correctly.

http://www.prosefights.org/funpics/thr/speermanuals/19661.jpg

http://www.prosefights.org/funpics/thr/speermanuals/19662.jpg

http://www.prosefights.org/funpics/thr/speermanuals/19871.jpg

http://www.prosefights.org/funpics/thr/speermanuals/19872.jpg

Some of us senior citizens have too many project going on simultaneously.

Like our genocide project (http://www.prosefights.org/bakhtiardead/bakhtiardead.htm).

[farmer7]

Thanks very much for the info and the effort Billip!!! Appreciated.

[taliv]

farmer, for the common things that make rifles shoot a little less accurately,

have you played with the seating depth on your existing loads?
have you checked the throat for erosion?
have you checked your crown for damage from cleaning or something?
are you storing your powder properly?
prepping your brass?


in any event, i'd recommend the 69g SMK and varget. it's pretty much the gold standard in high power competition.

[Mr. Two Guns]

I have a 1 in 8 LAR-15 and I've had good luck with both 69 grain SMK's and Hornady 68 grain HPBT match rounds. I used Varget in both with 23.5 grains pushing the 68 grain and 23 pushing the 69 grain. Both loads shot under one inch at 100 yards.

[Walkalong]

Quote:
Normal groups are 0.3-0.4 at 100.

You ought to be at matches beating our eyes out if you can do that consistently without flags or anything and bulk bullets. Try shooting 5 timed, 5 shot groups all in a row in all conditions and avg. them together. Then you will know what you and your rifle can do.

Well: OlderFox took my "doubting Thomas" self to task for this post and emailed me a fine looking group that looked pretty small.

I humbly apologise to OlderFox for lumping him in with all the "wondershooters" on the net who can shoot world records all the time with bulk bullets. Seems he can do it, at least sometimes.. Shame on me and what a rude way to treat a new THR member and a northern neighbor from Canada.

My apologies OlderFox............Walkalong

Welcome to THR

[billp]

I'm about ready to put powder in .223 cases.

So I went to the Hodgdon website and saw.

http://www.prosefights.org/funpics/thr/hodgdon/223load.jpg

I am still totally paranoid about pressure.

So I phoned Hodgdon

If you have a safety problem or concern - DO NOT EMAIL - CALL US
DIRECTLY - 913-362-9455

Here's what happened. Ever get shuttled off to nowhere by responding wrong on the phone?

Think safety, rather than reloading, first (http://www.prosefights.org/funpics/thr/hodgdon/mike1.wav).

Mike put my mind to ease (http://www.prosefights.org/funpics/thr/hodgdon/mike1.wav).

Hey, we think that there is more technology availabile to us than bullets.

Digital calipers and maybe even new powders, like VARGET?

Us seniors will see.

[45crittergitter]

Could it be the scope system or shooter? What about parallax correction?

[tikkat3]

[QUOTE=farmer7]Thanks very much for that link tikkat3, i will try it, i just wish they had had the common sense to do it themselves!QUOTE]

I agree totally. Even with 55gr V-MAX the standard magazine struggles to cope with rounds loaded to the lands. At least the magazine is plastic and can easily be modified. :banghead:

[farmer7]

When you modified your mag Tikkat3 did you have to extend the base plate of the mag? and if so, how??

[billp]

After reviewing hornaday loads, here's my CURRENT assesments.

ss109 start 24.8 gr VARGET start.
ss109 max 26.8 max

55 gr v-max start 25.5 VARGET start.
55 gr v-max 27.5 max

About 2 gr in both cases.

I am thinking about this. Slowly, of course. (http://www.incwell.com/Biographies/SittingBull.html)

I CURRENTLY plan to load one shell each at about .2 gr increment to max to test for pressure.

I looked for a dead drop hammer at harbor freight today ... just in case I have to beat-open the stevens 200 bolt. No sales prices.

Onward.

[fastbike]

Remember that Varget is specifically developed to minimize variations w/ temperature. The free Hodgson manual has a chart that shows <8fps variation for temps from 0F to 125F.

Not to add to your paranoia, but also remember that the 27.5 gr load is compressed. Personally, I like to stay away from compressed loads. Too many bad things from very small changes in seating depth. BTW the same chart shows 114fps variation for Win 748.

[billp]

Senior citizen will try to stay away from compressed loads as much as possible and will record hopefully with digital photos.

HEY, Let me get your take on this.

Son sent 200 ss109 bullets. I will load and test.

Will a ss109 shoot through a 3/8 steel plate?

At what rockwell hardness?

I've had .22 bullets come back and hit me.

But with an ss109 I'm a bit concerned.

For us seniors who want to become more senior.

[RecoilRob]

I have some friends that have used Varget with mixed results....none extraordinary. Suggested H-335 (WCC844 surplus) and they are hooked!

For one of the unexplainable reloading reasons (planetary alignment perhaps?) H-335 seems to be accurate in most rifles that don't shoot well with Varget.

It is a dense ball powder and is the standard loading for US M885 rounds....which is a pretty strong endorsement in my world.

I've loaded IMI 62grn SS109's over 26grns of 844 that will stay within an inch out of a Bushmaster (one in 9) Varminter. For a military round that is pretty fine. Have Sierra 55's that will go inside 1/4" with same load.

Cannot say I understand why some powders will be more accurate than another, but my experience with H-335 in .223 has been outstanding. Good shooting!

[GaryArkansas]

I use 26.0 grains of BLC(2), which is fairly light load. I use a flat base Hornady 50 grain SP. My OAL is 2.21, but I'm thinking about not seating so deep with my next set of check loads. CCI 400 primers, Sellier & Bellot cases.

I shoot with a 1:9 twist Savage, and the groups are pretty consistent. We had a bunch of wind today, but one of my groups had three in the same hole. (Normally, I'm not that accurate. Not sure of the distance, but its under 100 yards).

The nice thing about BLC(2) is that its a spherical powder with very tiny particles. It meters exceptionally well, with very little bridging.

[Walkalong]

Not to add to your paranoia, but also remember that the 27.5 gr load is compressed. Personally, I like to stay away from compressed loads. Too many bad things from very small changes in seating depth.

A valid point, but try this. Get a long drop tube for your powder measure witha small diameter hole in it. Homemade is fine. When you drop powder with it into your case it will compact your charge throughout the case and end up lower in the neck than regular charging. Then you are not compressing powder when seating the bullet and alls well. A trick we use in Benchrest. Works very well. The longer the tube (within reason) the more it compacts the powder in the case.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/rcbs_quick_change_funnel.htm

The longest shown here is short really. 4 times that long is used often.

http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reloadbasics/scales.cfm

Here is a pic and an explanation.

Ditto on H335, real good stuff.:)

[farmer7]

Thanks for the info Recoil and Gary, I did actually have H335 and BLC-(2), i think i may still have some. I didn't really get on very well with either. Maybe i should go back and try again as i now have the 69gr SMK's. The reason i was wanting to use varget was maximum velocity.

Walkalong you were talking about compression, i loaded some up on saturday using a drop tube, but because of my mag length i have to seat them fairly deep. When i was seating them i could feel and hear the Varget crushing. Am i asking for trouble??????

[billp]

I'm JUST ABOUT ready to powder my .223 55 v-max and ss109 cartridges.

I am proceeding with both at .2 grain increment staying .2 grain less than maximum load.

I will load 10 each, go the the albuquerque rifle range, and will test for pressure.

I bore sighted, after returning medium height Millett rings to Sportsman's Warehouse to get low Millet rings from Shooter's Den, the stevens 200 using and ironing board and an about 1 inch florescent target attached to the side of my accross-the-street neighbor's pickup.

I will position targets at 25 yards to see how my bore sighting is.

Main objective is to test for pressure.

Safety, I see from THR, is main concern.

As a senior citizen who lived in Pullman, Wa from 1966 to 1980, let me related a Jack O'Conner safety story.

Legendary rifle write Jack O'Conner lived in Lewiston, ID (http://www.jack-oconnor.org/) about 30 miles south and about 1,900 feet less altituted from Pullman.

O'Conner apparently suffered a slamfire which pasted his thumb against his arm!

Ouch!

http://www.prosefights.org/funpics/thr/handload/handloadrcbs2.jpg

http://www.prosefights.org/funpics/thr/handload/handloadrcbs3.jpg

http://www.prosefights.org/funpics/thr/handload/handloadrcbs4.jpg

You see the rock chucker press I am using to load .223 shells.

Senior citizen visited the home/shop of Al Biesen rifle maker in Spokane (http://www.huntamerica.com/wwwthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=UBB8&Number=238729&Searchpage=1&Main=238712&Words=+bucky1&topic=&Search=true). And went pheasant/chukar hunting with Biesen with Frank Prinique who had a rifle built by Biesen.

[billp]

I will stop my .223 55 v-max and ss109 loads if I detect "crushing."

My one overload experience was too horrible to even think about possibly repeating again.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/bpayne37/don2/bad22250.jpg

[Walkalong]

Walkalong you were talking about compression, i loaded some up on saturday using a drop tube, but because of my mag length i have to seat them fairly deep. When i was seating them i could feel and hear the Varget crushing. Am i asking for trouble??????

I routinely do that with N133 and various 68 Gr. bullets, although I am not pushing the powder back more than about 1/10 of an inch in the neck and N133 is finer than Varget. I don't think it will be a problem unless it is severe. How long of a drop tube did you use and how big was the hole in it. The slower the powder goes in the more compressed it will end up. I take it your bullet base is down past the neck. That is part of the problem with heavy for the caliber bullets where you have to make them fit in the mag.

Have you considered TAC? It is a ball powder and shoots quite well. I suspect it would do quite well with heavy bullets in the .223 although I have not tried it. Only in the 6 PPC.

[jibjab]

Lighter bullets for faster twist barrels can be slowed down for improved accuracy, the reason being the faster the bullet spins imperfections are amplified. Farmer 7 your Tika with a 1:8 twist and barrel length? I'll guess 24",is made to shoot 62gr and up well. Good luck I hope patients solves your problems and your rifle is well :)

[tikkat3]

Farmer, sorry - been offline a while! The base plate of the magazine's only modification is that the 4 studs that come off the main housing and lock into the baseplate (to hold the plate onto the housing) need to be "tickled" with a drill to take their tips off so that the plate can be removed and access gained for the cutting of the rear stop in the housing. Once fully modified, I replaced the base plate, securing it with a few dabs of superglue to hold it firm. Do not do this until you know the modification is fully and successfully done.

A word of warning: it is advisable to have a spare factory magazine available. The modified magazine is good for the longer, heavier rounds, but can cause feeding problems for the more standard 55gr lengths. I would strongly advise keeping a standard magazine for the 55gr and smaller rounds, and the modified one for 75/80gr A-MAX. As you will know, the T3 chamber is deeply placed and cannot be easily hand fed (hence the need for modification!) It is a chambering problem that the smaller length rounds have in the modifed magazine.

Hope this helps.