Glock Perfection. Uhhh...


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RNB65
February 28, 2007, 08:04 PM
:D

I just HATE when that happens!

Guard wounded by his own pistol

Richmond Times-Dispatch

Wednesday, February 28, 2007

A security guard at the federal courthouse in downtown Richmond was slightly wounded this morning when a handgun he was handling accidentally discharged.

The guard was grazed in the right upper thigh area by a lone bullet fired from a .40-caliber Glock 23 pistol, and he was taken to VCU Medical Center, where he was treated and released, said Jim Daley, the supervising deputy in charge of the U.S. Marshals Service in Richmond.

The guard, whose name was not released, is employed by Akal Security, which provides 22 security officers for the courthouse at 10th and East Main streets.

Daley said the guard had just reported for work about 7 a.m. and was putting on his equipment in a third-floor room used to store weapons, radios and other equipment. As the guard was putting the gun in his holster, it discharged, Daley said.

The bullet struck a filing cabinet and broke apart. No other injuries were reported.

Authorities are unsure why the weapon fired, Daley said. The Glock 23 has no external safety.

"We're going to check and make sure there are no defects with the gun and go from there," he said.

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SigfanUSAF
February 28, 2007, 08:08 PM
Authorities are unsure why the weapon fired, Daley said. The Glock 23 has no external safety.

Those are some stupid @$$ authorities. Funny, my Glocks have never fired themselves off......:confused:

10-Ring
February 28, 2007, 08:14 PM
You know, if I could train my G19 to go off when necessary, I put out to patrol my house at night & bring it back in the morning :neener:

Black Majik
February 28, 2007, 08:17 PM
He musta been professional enough...

candr44
February 28, 2007, 08:22 PM
Maybe they should give him one bullet to keep in his shirt pocket.

michiganfan
February 28, 2007, 08:28 PM
Majic yes he was probaly the only person in the room qualified to have a glock 40. Perhaps he should go to schools and give lectures on gun safety.

Sistema1927
February 28, 2007, 08:36 PM
Based on my experience, if you pull the trigger on a Glock it goes BANG! If you don't pull the trigger it doesn't go BANG!

I am betting that his finger, or some other item, was in the trigger guard while he was holstering it.

TheWanderer
February 28, 2007, 08:40 PM
You know, if I could train my G19 to go off when necessary, I put out to patrol my house at night & bring it back in the morning


This is great! ROTFL! I need to do that too! Where I work, I can see my car all night on a monitor. I could just leave the 19 on my carseat and have it on guard!


"Authorities are unsure why the gun fired...." Well of course they are. No one wants to admit the guy had his finger on the trigger, IMO.

ten bears
February 28, 2007, 09:05 PM
:cuss: Articles like this REALLY sadden me. There are those who view the Glock pistol as "unsafe" due to the fact there is no external manually operated safety. The Glock Pistol does have a external safety, the trigger safety, coupled with the firing pin safety and the drop safety.....thats three! They all sequentially disengage while pulling the trigger and automatically reengage when releasing the trigger. "Glock Perfection." I could post hundreds of articles in reference to self inflicted gun shot wounds involving almost every weapon manufactured. Fact is, guns don't shoot people, people shoot people and sometimes themselves, it happens. It just seems that Glock always seems to take the heat because there are no levers, buttons and switches to throw before firing. Its funny how they always note that, when a Glock is involved, "it has no safety." In my opinion, Glock weapons are the finest, most accurate combat handguns made. When it comes to a life and death situation, the adreniline slams through your body causing tunnel vision and everything goes into slow motion, I wish you luck with the levers, buttons and switches. If you have never been there its hard to understand. You deploy a Glock, point it, pull the trigger and it goes bang! I have heard all the rebuttals, the big one, "Practice and train, when it happens it will be automatic, it will be like a reflex!" I TOTALLY agree, we need to train and practice to be prepared. But, when the sh#* hits the fan, it does not always work. Through my years, again and again, I have seen students, in high stress situations, do everything from trying to draw their weapon and holster at the same time from a triple retention to continually pulling the trigger with the safety engaged and believing the weapon was actually firing. I guess my point, before getting off the subject is: When it comes to self defense, life and death, win or loose, simplicity is the way to go. Keep training and practicing for every situation you can imagine. Shoot from different positions and ALWAYS incorporate movement into your drills. Thank you for the opportunity and the freedom to voice my opinion. BE SAFE and burn lots of ammo! Ten Bears

kentucky_smith
February 28, 2007, 09:07 PM
Oooh, cocked and locked is scary. Let's go to a GLOCK. :rolleyes:

denfoote
February 28, 2007, 09:53 PM
People forget that, not to long ago, these guards carried (GASP) REVOLVERS!!!

They were honk'in big revolvers too, loaded with the EVIL .357 MAGNUM cartridge!!

These devices of Satan also DIDN"T have an external safety!!

I don't ever remember hearing about this happening then!!

Of course, departments spent a lot more time on firearm safety and most of their recruits came from a shooting background anyway.

The current tool of the Devil was designed to emulate the double action revolver!!

The following is as true now as it was then: Keep yer booger hook off the bang button and don't use yer holster to hide yer smokes and lighter!!

MICHAEL T
February 28, 2007, 09:54 PM
Glock weapons are the finest, most accurate combat handguns made. :rolleyes:

Their are many who will disagree with that statement.

Fool shot himself Might not have happened if been a Springfield or any other DA pistol with a proper safety.
Several years back I was forced to use my 1911 in SD and had no problem finding and pushing off safety. I have never understood the you can't work a safety under stress line. GI's do it on their rifles every day and long before walk on water Glocks came into picture lots of other people didn't have trouble. Guess modern people are just to lazy to learn or to dumb.

357wheelgunner
February 28, 2007, 09:57 PM
I think that instead of spending money on firearm safety and marksmanship training, they spent all of their money on ammunition so the guys could practice "tactical reloads" and empty the magazine into the air around the target more quickly :barf: Revolvers are for stupid people anyway ;)

Donut
February 28, 2007, 10:30 PM
Guess modern people are just too lazy to learn or too dumb.



Sorry Michael, I had do it. :neener:

Rod B
February 28, 2007, 11:02 PM
Gun manufacturers do their best to make their guns idiot proof.:banghead:

However there is always one idiot who will figure out how to blame the gun for an A.D.


Rod.:)

JLStorm
February 28, 2007, 11:04 PM
you realize of course if this was not a security guard or LEO the gun wouldnt have just gone off on its own...the newspaper would have reported how shots were fired by a civilian. I think those who use weapons for carry duty are the only ones who have the models that are able to think on their own and fire without being touched....

jwerlc
February 28, 2007, 11:08 PM
Glocks are the best, safest, most accurate, most intelligent, successful, beautiful, loving weapons I have ever known to exist...:cool: ...

Autolycus
February 28, 2007, 11:30 PM
When I talk to people about guns I say "My gun does not have a manual safety but it does have inherent safeties."

Of course this is the guns fault and not the officers. I just want to make that clear. As someone else pointed out, if it was not an officer or other trained member it was the operators error.

HSMITH
February 28, 2007, 11:42 PM
Someone should have taught this dumb ___ to keep his booger hook off the bang switch when holstering and this would not have happened. Holster a Glock, or an XD for that matter, with somewhat close to a normal grip and your finger in the trigger guard and you will hear a loud BANG followed by varying degrees of pain......

default
February 28, 2007, 11:47 PM
The implication in the article is that the pistol fired for some reason other than a pull of trigger, whether deliberate or negligent. With an unmodified GLOCK, this is essentially impossible. If anyone can think of a scenario in which a GLOCK could fire without the trigger being pulled that does not involve a 2000-degree fire, getting sucked into an MRI machine, or the rear of the slide being struck squarely by another bullet, I'd like to hear it.

tango3065
February 28, 2007, 11:50 PM
Well I don't believe in ghost but they better get some professionals in there that can check it out :D .

Marshall
February 28, 2007, 11:57 PM
Hope he's not a member of THR.

karz10
March 1, 2007, 12:03 AM
He musta been professional enough... ROFL

------

Umm, anyone else notice that: As the guard was putting the gun in his holster, it discharged, Daley said.
is not in QUOTES

But after making a point to say Authorities are unsure why the weapon fired, Daley said. The Glock 23 has no external safety

The following statement is in QUOTES"We're going to check and make sure there are no defects with the gun and go from there," he said.

-------

In other words, the guy is definitely quoted as saying that they're going to check the gun for defects, which as I understand it, should be pretty easy to check out. However, it's obvious that they wanted to make a point that it has no external safety, after they say authorities aren't sure why it went off, but first say that Daley said the gun just discharged while being put in the holster, but didn't QUOTE him on what he specifically said.

To me, that is either an oversight by the reporter to forget the quotes, or it's allowing them some room to paraphrase what was actually said, potentially spinning it.

Why is it always (usually anyway) while holstering? Rhetorical question, of course. I never hear about someone dropping it or something more drastic causing it to go off, but man, don't try to holster the weapon, it could go off at any time!

--------

BTW, I thought it was interesting to see average commoners like myself at an IDPA thing last night, losing valuable seconds trying to get their safety's off of their 1911's and such, as they removed from holsters and attempted to fire in a timed environment. I'm not slamming anyone or anything, there were some very proficient shooters that had obviously practiced a lot w/ their weapons, and it's good that they are training w/ their weapon, and I'll probably look way more silly to someone else when I get out there, but I'm just saying it made me really think about real-world scenario responses when I saw some dealing with that.

I initially was thinking about the gun I bought, when I was planning to buy it, mainly for HD, thinking of the late night intruder, having an alarm or something, hopefully, to give me some warning, and with a few seconds to prepare and de-safety didn't seem like that big of a deal to me, but I guess I'm saying I can see some people's point now about having something ready to go, like the Glocks, when you're FTF w/ an attacker, especially seeing first hand someone simulating a speedy draw and fire scenario.

But, I also understand why some want an external safety, and probably would recommend extreme caution to anyone used to a manual safety handling a Glock. It makes me wonder when someone like this, in a security position, or LEO, that should be used to guns, if somewhere along the line they got used to the manual safety gun of another type, and didn't realize their habits to break the trigger guard rule, but those faults become exposed when dealing w/ an internal safety type gun.

And to those touting the safeties of XD's and that, I'm no expert, but the thing that scared me about the XD, I had to have my hand jammed up into the proper spot, I was afraid that there might be a self defense situation where my hand was forced into a lower position on the gun, or I had to grab it in a funny way, and I still could easily control and aim the weapon, but because the web of my hand was an inch lower from the top, my grip safety wouldn't let me fire the gun. It was one of the things that made me personally shy away from the XD. It's a good theory, but whether my concern is realistic or not, I was concerned about wanting to fire the gun and it not working for that reason.

I also like the M&P, which came with an option of a Mag Safety, which as a new gun owner, I kind of thought I liked that initially, but I was surpised to see so many people against it. I was reminded of it, when I watched a defense show w/ Ayoob, he was talking about the proper position to hold a long gun clearing a house, where if it's down you're in a position of power, and can still shoot at the feet of the attacker in a struggle, and I thought about being in a struggle for my handgun, and if the mag got released, I would have to find a way to spend that chambered bullet before it got taken away from me, and hopefully put that bullet SOMEWHERE into the attacker, to help gain the advantage, and not lose the weapon in the first place.

I don't know, I think any safety measure can have a potential drawback, and any time you make something ready to fire, it comes with extra responsibilities to train and execute properly.

Karz

Redhat
March 1, 2007, 12:12 AM
I guess the 1911 ers hadn't practiced enough amybe.

Have you seen them practice?

After the match, did they all trade in their 1911s for something else without a safety?

The champion IPSC shooters that use 1911's don't seem to have any of these problems?

Sorry I just don't buuuy it.

Have you fired the XD and had the grip safety prevent you from firing?

ON the flip side, I have read some of Ayoob's articles where the magazine safety saved lives in a struggle because they were ejected prior to the bad guy getting control of the gun. Problem was he couldn't fire it at the good guy because the magazine wasn't in. Same stories about manual safeties...bad guy couldn't figure out how to get the safety off, which bought enough time for the officer to employ a back-up gun.

Nothing will be perfect, just make the most informed decision you can and like everyone else, you take your chances.

tnieto2004
March 1, 2007, 12:21 AM
I only have 1 handgun with external safety .. never been a issue

karz10
March 1, 2007, 12:24 AM
I guess the 1911 ers hadn't practiced enough amybe.

Have you seen them practice?

After the match, did they all trade in their 1911s for something else without a safety?

The champion IPSC shooters that use 1911's don't seem to have any of these problems?

Sorry I just don't buuuy it.

Have you fired the XD and had the grip safety prevent you from firing?



I know I'm long winded, and it might be painful to read my entire post, but I also clearly said: I'm not slamming anyone or anything, there were some very proficient shooters that had obviously practiced a lot w/ their weapons, and it's good that they are training w/ their weapon, and I'll probably look way more silly to someone else when I get out there, but I'm just saying it made me really think about real-world scenario responses when I saw some dealing with that. which meant, that despite the observed challenges of some, there were other QUITE PROFICIENT SHOOTERS THAT DID NOT HAVE THAT PROBLEM, and I WAS GIVING KUDOS TO THOSE W/ CHALLENGES FOR PRACTICING W/ THEIR WEAPON, and that admittedly I WOULD PROBABLY HAVE CHALLENGES TOO OF ANOTHER TYPE WHEN I GET OUT THERE, so I really don't see what your point is, w/ all due respect, I did not intend to as I said SLAMM ANYONE OR ANYTHING, but merely was pointing out a real-life observation, rather than a pure theory, that MAY BE WORTH THINKING ABOUT TO SOME, but MAY NOT APPLY TO EVERYONE.

As to the XD, I fired an XD in the proper way, as part of my tests before purchase, it wasn't until I later went back at a gun show, after much more research and learning, that the thought occured to me to hold the weapon in such a way, and consider the consequences, I was not in a position to then fire it, as I was at a gun show, and not a range. And again, I clearly stated that I considered myself as NO EXPERT, and was clearly stating my OPINION.

YMMV. Thank you for your time.

Regards,

Karz

ten bears
March 1, 2007, 09:39 PM
Karz,

I would hate to think that I'm "lazy and stupid" but still possessed the unforseen power to read your blog and understand it. Anyway, I got it. I suppose, if the officer in the article had used a 1911 we could have misconstrued every point given in its defense and had us a old fashioned 1911 bashing. Ten Bears

karz10
March 2, 2007, 12:51 AM
LOL Ten Bears. Yeah, I mean I guess my comments about my IDPA and the manual safety was not required in my response to the Original Poster, but it seems like everyone else always talks about guns w/ manual safety and compare them to glock's internal safety, whenever something like this comes up.

I don't have a problem with a manual safety, and I would probably be one of the weirdos in the Glock community that would buy one if it had one on it, since I would have the choice to use it or not, assuming they kept their internal safety as is. I don't have anything against most of the safety devices available, but there are responsibilites and concerns about every style of safety, or lack there of, either when it comes time to disable them in a SD situation, or to protect you and others in handling the weapon.

I only even said anything about the IDPA thing because it was something I witnessed happen, was fresh on my mind, and made me imagine how some people could be concerned about it and prefer an internal safety gun for SD, not to say either way is right or wrong. At the end of the day, I'd like to think we're all on the same page here, comparing guns to find the ones that work for us, safely handle them, and use them successfully if we need to.

Regards,

Karz

RevolvingCylinder
March 2, 2007, 01:40 AM
"Glock's internal safety" always cracks me up. Most pistols on the market have "internal safeties"(which I guess is a new buzz word that manufacturers are using too frequently to market with along with "polymer" and "tactical") but why whenever "Glock" is mentioned that this design or "feature" as the market it, must be mentioned is something I don't understand.

The problem here is seems not to be the fault of the pistol as it occurred as he was holstering it.It can be debated whether or not that the individual here had the appropriate equipment for him but I'm sick of hearing the same old "Glock goes off on its own" crap get rehashed all the time.

.cheese.
March 2, 2007, 01:56 AM
accidents happen.

wasn't the fault of the gun most likely though.

the guy probably learned a valuable lesson about handling loaded weapons.

grimjaw
March 2, 2007, 02:43 AM
. . . because everyone knows that accidental/negligent discharges didn't happen until Gaston make the Glock, right?

jm

3rdpig
March 2, 2007, 03:14 AM
And quietly in the back of the room, 3rdpig stands up, raises his hand in the air with his index finger extended and wiggling and says "This is my safety".

tbreed725
March 2, 2007, 09:44 AM
now now yall you know it HAS to be the gun NO WAY its a TRAINING problem if it had been a pencil he might have the tip too sharp:evil:

arizona
March 2, 2007, 10:49 AM
Safety on Trigger = oxyMORON :rolleyes:

default
March 2, 2007, 11:46 AM
I sometimes wonder if the purpose of the GLOCK trigger safety is very well understood. I agree, it looks kind of pointless at first - the safety is on the trigger? However, it's not so much to allow the trigger to move all the way back when it is being deliberately pulled, but rather to prevent it from moving all the way back when it is not being deliberately pulled - such as in the case of an off-axis pull by a wandering finger or a foreign object in a holster, range bag, etc. It's perhaps debatable how significant the additional layer of safety gained is, but let's be clear on what it is and why it's there before we argue its merits.

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