Any Latinists out there? (gun related)


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TheArchDuke
March 1, 2007, 09:32 PM
I was thinking about gun engraving and I thought this latin phrase might be cool to get on the slide of a pistol:

"tenebras expellit et hostes"

It's supposed to say "he expells the darkness and the enemy"

Are there any highroaders out there in cyberspace that can proof-read that phrase for me? Is that the proper spelling and grammer?

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DReicht
March 1, 2007, 09:38 PM
Looks good to me and my 4 years of Latin. You even got the syntax correct, apparently you aren't too shabby yourself :D

Bazooka Joe71
March 1, 2007, 09:41 PM
Can't proofread it for you, but I do like the expression

Geronimo45
March 1, 2007, 09:41 PM
'Si vis pacem, parabellum' is good Latin-speak... and I think your phrase is right. I don't remember my Latin too well, though.

TheArchDuke
March 1, 2007, 09:41 PM
Oh I found this on one of those hokey family crest sites. Apparently it's my family motto, but how many different Smith families could there be? haha

Oh well, according to the intergalactic laws of heraldry, any family member can change their family coat of arms at any time...so that is officially my new family motto.


Sorry, back to the topic... Thanks for the info!

.cheese.
March 1, 2007, 10:11 PM
Latin I'm not so good in.

Hebrew or spanish is where I could either figure it out or ask a family member.

TheArchDuke
March 1, 2007, 10:20 PM
Hmm, can I get back to you on that hebrew thing? My girlfriend has a Hebrew phrase she wants tattooed somewhere. Can you read or write it?

.cheese.
March 1, 2007, 10:36 PM
if I can't, I can probably ask a family member or friend - depending upon what it says. ;)

TheArchDuke
March 1, 2007, 10:38 PM
Cool thanks. I'll PM you later if I can find out what it is she wanted.

Maybe she'll even get it engraved on her Marlin (you like how I tied it back in to the topic there? haha)

aps88
March 2, 2007, 12:02 AM
Looks good to me. I study classical languages (still in school), and the grammar looks fine. Unfortunately I haven't taken any Latin Composition yet, so I don't really know word order customs (if you even care, yours is definitely fine the way it is.) Generic latin would put the verb at the end of the sentence (tenebras et hostes expellit), but obviously real writers moved words around all over, so anything is fine.

Cosmoline
March 2, 2007, 12:20 AM
he expells the darkness and the enemy

tenebras expellit et hostes

Expello expellEre, so "et" not "it"

Tenebra /arum should be am because it's the (singular) subject, unless expellere takes some odd case, but as far as I can see it doesn't.

Hostis/is (third I think) means a public enemy like an army. There's a different word for a personal enemy, but I assume that's not the intended meaning.

"et" as "and" is usually replaced with "que" for posey and the like.

igitur,

TENEBRAM HOSTEMQUE EXPELLET

cf ARMA VIRUMQUE CANO

I kind of like TENEBRAM HOSTEMQUE NECAT, which would be he kills the darkness and the enemy. Expello/ere has the air of informal banishment to it. But not quite up to the level of Caesar banishing you, which would be "exterminare." Necare is to kill, as in put a bullet in it.

But I'm more at the level of Latin Harry Potter, so any real scholars feel free to correct any and all of this.

TheArchDuke
March 2, 2007, 12:29 AM
Very interesting info Cosmoline.

The context of the phrase is each individual in a group doing his part to help expell an army.

Apparently, way back in Ireland, the Smiths (then known as the McGowans) fought a battle at night using torches. Thus, "He (each individual) does his part to expell the darkness and the enemy".

I don't know Latin at all so I don't know if that helps to clarify anything haha

Cosmoline
March 2, 2007, 12:39 AM
OK, give me a minute and I'll work something out along those lines.

LUMINE TENEBRAM HOSTEMQUE EXPELLEMUS

By light we expel the darkness and the enemy

How's that?

Lumine is in the ablative singular, and I chanaged expellet to expellemus to reflect joint effort. Keeping it in the present tense makes it sound like a motto, to me at least.

or you could add Ferrum/i (iron)

FERRO LUMINEQUE TENEBRAM HOSTEMQUE EXPELLEMUS

TheArchDuke
March 2, 2007, 01:33 AM
What does it mean when you add "iron"? BY IRON AND LIGHT..."? The grammer is hard to grasp...but I guess that's pretty well known haha

Anteater1717
March 2, 2007, 02:05 AM
es tu agricola? i dont know why i asked that, here is some random latin for everyone :)

custos gaurd
comitor accompany
nactus having seized
nasus nose
spero hope
tandem atlast
pater father
mater mother
en look
flamma flame
flumen river
gaza treasure
cogo force
conficio finish
durus hard
hora hour
nuper recently
celo hide
unde from where
plenus full morbus illnes
sapiens wise
carcer prison
verum the truth
i could continue if you would like

Cosmoline
March 2, 2007, 02:30 AM
"iron" as in swords, though it's also old slang for firearms.

TheArchDuke
March 2, 2007, 02:36 AM
Very nice! I like it, Thank you.

Connecticut Yankee
March 2, 2007, 05:11 AM
Fr. Zuhlsdorf has a column "What Does the Prayer Really Say" in which he in exhaustive detail and with much humor looks at the correct translation of the Latin prayers of the Catholic church. His website is: http://wdtprs.com/blog/ and there is an e-mail address for him. I have never corresponded with him and don't know his feelings about firearms. However, he really knows and enjoys Latin and will go on for paragraphs about the root meaning and nuances of individual words according to the Lewis & Short dictionary. It can't hurt to ask his help. Also, he may be able to tell you of other classic Latin inscriptions that might be of interest. There has to be more than Arma virumque cano and Ultima ratio regis.

taliv
March 2, 2007, 09:48 AM
i only had 2 yrs of latin. my favorite phrase is MOST appropriate for internet fora


de asini umbra disceptare (arguing about the shadow of a donkey)

aps88
March 2, 2007, 10:59 AM
Cosmoline, tenebrae is a plural word used as a singular. It should be tenebras. (I had to look it up to double check.)

Also, it should be expellIT for a 3rd singular present tense. expellet would be future tense. It's expello, not expelleo, in which case you would be correct.

Replacing the et with que makes sense. Either is grammatically correct I think, but I agree the que is probably more customary in a case like this.

Using other words for enemy and expel could work. I don't really know enough latin to suggest others, but your current ones don't strike me as wrong. Expello and hostis are both fairly common words.

If you want to go with Cosmoline suggestion of "by light and iron," you could rearrange the words to get a quasi-Golden Line (I don't have the talent to put it into meter.) But it could be something like this:

tenebras lumine expellimus ferro hostes

The words are parallel (the two objects on the ends, then one step in are the instruments of expelling, then the verb in the middle). Also, if you want to read really far into it, you have the bad things on the outside because they are being expelled, and the expelling instrument is right next to them, so the order of the line kind of mimics the statement if you understand. Just a thought.

Here is a good website for looking up words and meanings http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cache/perscoll_PersInfo.html

It has an English to latin word search and a morphological analysis to check any latin words.

If you could fine someone to put your phrase in meter, then you would be really cool.

JoseM
March 2, 2007, 01:01 PM
tenebras expellit et hostes

Expello expellEre, so "et" not "it"

Tenebra /arum should be am because it's the (singular) subject, unless expellere takes some odd case, but as far as I can see it doesn't.

Hostis/is (third I think) means a public enemy like an army. There's a different word for a personal enemy, but I assume that's not the intended meaning.

"et" as "and" is usually replaced with "que" for posey and the like.

igitur,

TENEBRAM HOSTEMQUE EXPELLET

cf ARMA VIRUMQUE CANO

I kind of like TENEBRAM HOSTEMQUE NECAT, which would be he kills the darkness and the enemy. Expello/ere has the air of informal banishment to it. But not quite up to the level of Caesar banishing you, which would be "exterminare." Necare is to kill, as in put a bullet in it.

But I'm more at the level of Latin Harry Potter, so any real scholars feel free to correct any and all of this.
__________________

Hilarious...I had the picture of the guard in Monty Python's Life of Bryon just then....

jlbraun
March 2, 2007, 01:03 PM
Yet another reason why I love THR. An entire page devoted to the particulars of Latin grammar to be engraved on the side of a firearm. :D

AndyC
March 2, 2007, 01:31 PM
Every time I see a discussion on Latin grammar, I'm so tempted to post the "Romanes Eunt Domus" scene from "The Life of Brian" by Monty Python :D

Edit: Looky what I found on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIAdHEwiAy8

Cosmoline
March 2, 2007, 01:40 PM
Thanks for that insight aps88

tenebras lumine expellimus ferro hostes

What difference in emphasis does it make to dump the "que/et"? If you drop them, would the emphasis go to the implied "us" instead of the light and fire? The other thing I was wondering is how the poets would decide whether to put "que" in for both light and iron and darkness and the enemy.

Anteater1717
March 2, 2007, 08:54 PM
"de asini umbra disceptare (arguing about the shadow of a donkey)"
or ghost of a donkey if i am correct

my favorite if i remember correctly correct me if i am saying somthing rong was ace tace corruqus wich i believe ment to the crows with you wich was a bad inssult in its time.

and everyones favorite ignis bracchium fire arm realy realy literaly

Cosmoline
March 2, 2007, 09:31 PM
everyones favorite ignis bracchium fire arm realy realy literaly

Actually, the word for firearm would be sclopetum. Folks think of Latin as the language of the Romans, and imagine it died out with them long before the modern era. But Latin was a living language for 2,000 years and continued to function on some levels until the 20th century.

They're still using it in Finland. Nobody knows why.

carpediem
March 2, 2007, 09:37 PM
Quod in vita facimus, in aternitate sonat :D

taliv
March 3, 2007, 09:03 PM
http://www.freedict.com/onldict/onldict.php
http://www.sunsite.ubc.ca/LatinDictionary/HyperText/latin-dict-full.html#U

or ghost of a donkey if i am correct

sorry, it's shadow, not ghost
they all concur

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