Gun dealers who violate 1 or more of the 4 rules.


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ShooterMcGavin
March 2, 2007, 03:25 AM
Negligent gun handling from gun shop employees.

I frequent a gun shop in my area and ask to inspect a firearm on occasion. The guys are all easy going, but this one guy.... The way he handles the guns just makes me uneasy. He is too easy going (i.e. danerous). Guns in display cases are typically not loaded, right??? WRONG, all guns are always loaded. Today I asked to see 3 different guns. He removed them from the case (one by one) and handed each -loaded- gun to me, just like that. There was no pulling the slide back or checking for a round in the chamber. For each gun, I did check that the chamber and magazine was empty.

A while back, he was telling me about his own personal handgun. It was a revolver that held 8 rounds. He picked it up and pointed it up at a wall (not near me), all the time with his finger directly ON the trigger.

The above was all the same guy.

In another shop, I have been swept a few times. Who hasn't(?), but I am NOT a veteran gun shopper. I'm pretty new to the whole game. Pointing a fully disassembled barrel at me is not such a big deal (I still believe it should be avoided). Sweep me with the muzzle of a gun with the slide locked back and I get a little annoyed. Sweep me with a gun with the slide forward, and I'm even more annoyed (assuming that I just confirmed the chamber to be empty). If I did not see the empty chamber, I will be pretty pissed.

I bought my first gun less than a month ago. You guys probably have some stories that would make me duck away from my computer :barf:

Don't you have to know AND PRACTICE the four rules to get a job in a store that requires you to handle guns all day?!?!!!

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swgunner
March 2, 2007, 03:41 AM
after leaving the navy i got a job in a gun store, left because cleaning the lead was killing my health, but anyway most guns have internal locks in the barrel, they look like a bullet with a torx head. usually the manager has a key so it is impssible for the employee to open the action. now as far as sweeping and the other stupidity i would have thrown him to the deck and immobilized him, attempted assault with a deadly weapon, but thats military law enforcement speaking

razorburn
March 2, 2007, 04:17 AM
I wouldn't put up with getting swept all the time. The other stuff doesn't sound so bad. You ask for a bunch of guns and he doesn't check the magazine and chamber of each one before taking them out? No big deal to me as long as the guns never sweep me and he kept his finger off the trigger. Also no big deal that he had his finger on the trigger of his personal handgun if it was pointed in a safe direction, at a wall. The four rules are extremely strict and not always possible to follow. For example, all guns are loaded and never point a loaded gun at anything you don't want to destroy. That means I can't check the rifling with a bore light, dry fire to check the trigger, etc. Heck, to be completely thorough, I shouldn't even take the gun inside my house because that gun is "loaded" and anywhere I put it, it's pointed at some part of my house that I do not want to destroy.

Fn-P9
March 2, 2007, 05:07 AM
I understand what you are saying about trying to obey the 4 rules. My opinion is to relax a little bit and although this does sound bad, in a gun store you have to ease up a bit on the rules.

My g/f and I went looking at pistols at a very busy Sportsmans warehouse (aka Cabelas). It was soo busy that it was hard to not point it in the general direction (not pointing at) of a shopper. Even at the floor people are very close. Usually you try to keep the muzzle at least 90* away from people but in such close quarters....

Its a hard call but don't take it all too seriously. Unless people are away from the counter, then its weird lol

drummerwookie
March 2, 2007, 05:23 AM
i just put this over in the "my roomate did something dumb today" thead, but it fits better here so here it is, copy and pasted from the other thread



nothing like what the original poster wrote about happened, but some friends of mine were out shooting in my friends woods, i wasnt there, luckly, or who knows what i wouldve done to this guy, but i guess what happened, was they were taking a break, and one guy picked up a pistal, with no mag, and pointed it at another guy there and pulled the trigger...they all just about went ape **** on him, and he just said "what, its empty, theres not even a magazine in it" and now, believe it or not, the same guy is training to be a cop.....when he told me he was training to be a cop, and showed me his glock, i couldnt believe it

pacodelahoya
March 2, 2007, 07:30 AM
What's that old saying? Familiarity breeds contempt.
Pointing a fully disassembled barrel at me is not such a big deal (I still believe it should be avoided).

I think your heart is in the right place, but you can lighten up a little.:)

XavierBreath
March 2, 2007, 07:32 AM
Complacency Kills.

You have total choice of where you shop.

If you do not like the way guns are handled in a gun store by employees, politely inform the manager/owner why you are leaving on your way out.

Swgunner, that is a strange lock. Did it leave marks in the barrel/chamber? If it did not, how did it lock in there? How did you sell guns when the customer was unable to work the action? Do you have a hyperlink to the lock?

I would not advise assault and battery of a person who inadvertently sweeps you with a muzzle of a gun. You can say his muzzle sweep was assault with a deadly weapon all you want, but the courts will likely decide the outcome of the matter if you put a fellow customer "on the deck and immobilize him". Have fun defending the actions in court.

entropy
March 2, 2007, 12:51 PM
Noticed that at Gander and Sportsman's Warehouse, too. The counter guy at SW handed another customer an Auto Ordnance Thompson without checking it, and the customer didn't know how to, (I'm pretty sure the counter guy didn't either, because he didn't offer to help.) I asked if I could check it for him, he seem relieved. It was ggo dto see most the customers looking at the pistols knew to check them, but they shouldn't have had to. We always check them at the shop I work at. There the beef is with customers that bring guns in to be worked on with live rounds in the chamber!:mad:

Deathrider1579
March 2, 2007, 12:59 PM
Perhaps some should take it down a notch on the intensity meeter?

I would say relax man its not a big thing in a gun store. Now on a range or in your house thats different but a gun-shop is what I would call an exception zone. just chill a little deep breaths there ya go now go clean your gun and relax for a little all this stress will go away.

-DR

Bazooka Joe71
March 2, 2007, 01:29 PM
Guns in display cases are typically not loaded, right??? WRONG, all guns are always loaded.

This seems VERY strange to me....Is this common? Its not in my area, but I'm just curious if I'm the only one who thinks this is weird? This is why I thought it was the exception for accidental sweaping and pointing... But when they are loaded its a totally different story.

This just shouts out to me, "Hey BG, here is a loaded gun for you to shoot your way out of the store!"

Trebor
March 2, 2007, 01:45 PM
I sold guns for a couple of weeks at a Gander Mountain a couple years ago. The sales staff get swept constantly. You just have to get used to it. For every one time a customer gets swept by a muzzle, the sales staff get swept maybe 10 or 15 times.

All the staff when I was there were pretty good about dropping the mag and checking the chamber before handing the gun over to the customer. Maybe one customer in 20 would check the chamber themselves as well.

I'd always try to avoid sweeping anyone with the muzzle, mainly just to maintain my good habits. Not everyone was as concerned about that though, especially when they'd just cleared the gun.

Trebor
March 2, 2007, 01:50 PM
Guns in display cases are typically not loaded, right??? WRONG, all guns are always loaded.

This seems VERY strange to me....Is this common? Its not in my area, but I'm just curious if I'm the only one who thinks this is weird? This is why I thought it was the exception for accidental sweaping and pointing... But when they are loaded its a totally different story.

The guns in the display cases are NOT loaded. The original poster was just trying to reinforce the common safety rule that you should "Always treat every gun as if it was loaded," which is often abbreviated to, "Every gun is always loaded."

Personally, I prefer the NRA's 3 safety rules to the "Every gun is always loaded" statement. This is because the *absolute* statement, "Every gun is always loaded," does not recognize the fact that sometimes guns ARE unloaded and can be verified to be unloaded.

If "Every gun is always loaded," we'd never be able to clean our guns, right? Because you should never clean a loaded gun.

Sunray
March 2, 2007, 02:18 PM
"...Don't you have to know AND PRACTICE..." Nope. You just have to be willing to work retail hours for minimum wage.

ShooterMcGavin
March 2, 2007, 04:14 PM
The four rules are extremely strict and not always possible to follow. ... to be completely thorough, I shouldn't even take the gun inside my house because that gun is "loaded" and anywhere I put it, it's pointed at some part of my house that I do not want to destroy.
Yes, I do agree with you, about the rules being strict and a bit excessive. I don't make the rules, I just follow them :) ...and I am picky about rules, especially around guns.

My opinion is to relax a little bit and although this does sound bad, in a gun store you have to ease up a bit on the rules.
Yeah, I guess I need to settle down a little bit. It just seems like an employee working in the industry should be the most vigilant about proper gun-etiquette.

...one guy picked up a pistal, with no mag, and pointed it at another guy there and pulled the trigger...
All I can say is, DAMN! I would probably refuse to shoot with him around for a while, at least until he learns to recite the rules verbatim.

If you do not like the way guns are handled in a gun store by employees, politely inform the manager/owner why you are leaving on your way out.
I was not so horrified that I would stop going there, or even make a public scene. I have been thinking of talking to the store's owner, just as a friendly observation that could cost him business in the future. The guy who swept me was less of a concern. He was very professional otherwise.

Perhaps some should take it down a notch on the intensity meeter?
:) True. I am very picky, even with my own gun handling. Nobody is perfect. I have swept a friend once or twice, ONLY with an empty chamber and the slide locked back. Still, I don't want to accept complacency.

Springer_Fan
March 2, 2007, 10:13 PM
nothing like what the original poster wrote about happened, but some friends of mine were out shooting in my friends woods, i wasnt there, luckly, or who knows what i wouldve done to this guy, but i guess what happened, was they were taking a break, and one guy picked up a pistal, with no mag, and pointed it at another guy there and pulled the trigger...they all just about went ape **** on him, and he just said "what, its empty, theres not even a magazine in it" and now, believe it or not, the same guy is training to be a cop.....when he told me he was training to be a cop, and showed me his glock, i couldnt believe it
Some autoloaders WILL fire with no mag, some won't. My 1911 WILL, my S&W 39 WON'T. It depends on the safety features (or lack thereof) incorporated into the weapon.

If he was my roommate and did that, he wouldn't be my roommate. The boy is an idiot, and he's going to hurt someone-hope it's not you.:fire:

Cesiumsponge
March 2, 2007, 10:50 PM
Which stores are these? I haven't really seen any "bad behavior" in area stores, but I don't frequent them often unless I've already decided on exactly what I want after deciding on everything via the Internet.

Husker1911
March 2, 2007, 10:50 PM
Shooter McGavin, you voice a valid concern. Rules are rules, and being swept by an employee is not only ignorant, it's down right annoying. In a worst case, it could be fatal.

Over the years, I've sold literally thousands of firearms. Half the handguns in the display cases were inserted barrel out, facing the clientele. From a practical standpoint, that was a necessity. Still, I would abide by the rules of proper gun handling, and always open or spin a cylinder, and lock back an empty auto's slide, so the customer knew the gun was not loaded.

This accomplished several things. It showed proper respect for the rules of gun handling and for the customer. It demonstrated proper methods of handling the gun. From a sales prospective, any new customer I was dealing with knew I wasn't a complete doofus, and that helped cement my initial impression to the customer. A customer confident in your expertise was more likely to purchase. It's human nature.

All that being said, it was inevitable an occasional mistake or slipup would occur.

Trope
March 3, 2007, 01:19 AM
I really don't understand why the rules should be more lax in a gun store. If anything, I'd think that the reasons for following them would be at least as valid as anywhere else.

I don't find it burdensome to not point a gun at someone, or to keep my finger off the trigger. It takes hardly any time to verify that a gun is unloaded. Given the potential risk involved I cannot understand why anyone would object.

GreenFurniture
March 3, 2007, 01:30 AM
In a gunstore, everyone is getting swept non stop.

I can't tell you how many times I have taken great care to not sweep a customer when removing and checking a firearm only to be swept a dozen times by them.

And I won't even discuss how many times I've been flashed by customers with LOADED guns wanting to trade.

Juna
March 3, 2007, 01:38 AM
For every one time a customer gets swept by a muzzle, the sales staff get swept maybe 10 or 15 times.

That's so true. Every time I'm in a gun shop, if a newbie is there holding guns for the first time, he'll almost always put his finger on the trigger & muzzle flash people in the store inadvertently.

he just said "what, its empty, theres not even a magazine in it"

Very scary. My CZ 75 will fire with no magazine. Not all firearms have a magazine disconnect safety. Your friend could have killed someone. I hope he learns the basic rules of firearm safety before becoming an LEO. That could have been outrageously bad. It's amazing how thoughtless some people are.

FieroCDSP
March 3, 2007, 02:19 AM
"...Don't you have to know AND PRACTICE..." Nope. You just have to be willing to work retail hours for minimum wage.

Yeesh...no argument here.

McGavin, if there is one employee in particular that seems to be dangerously lax in his methods, I'd tell his manager. What if he takes a trade and doesn't check it. The possibilities seem remote, but things like that can happen. Something I heard on history channel.... For a disaster to happen, all of the variables must fall into place in the right sequence. It was something like that. I'm not sure whether that or the law of averages would apply more to a safety lax employee. Regardless, it only takes one mistake with a gun to kill someone.

You can't help but be swept in a gun shop, especially if it's busy. My local is good in that all of the handlers ALWAYS check the chambers. I myself have forgotten at some time or another when I'm selling them, but we don't take trades, they all have trigger locks (company policy), and I'm the one who put them in there, so I'm 99.9% sure they're empty. I still check, thus cutting the chances of an incident.
When I'm checking a gun at a counter and one of the handlers passes by, I dip the muzzle, out of safety and respect. Should the unthinkable happen, they're only going to get it in the leg or foot, that's after it makes it through the case and guns inside. I would certainly not point it at their chest or head. Long-guns are more difficult, but if you keep them parallel to and over the counter, there's less likely to be someone on either end than behind on either side.

But you're still less likely to be shot in a gun store than in Washington DC. :)

sorensen440
March 3, 2007, 03:10 AM
Im sure he didnt know better, many people dont
Did you try to explain why you were uncomfortable with it ?

swgunner
March 3, 2007, 08:15 AM
to xavierbreath http://www.omegagunlock.com/ this is the lock i was talking about , as for the comment about immobilization, i was reminded of an incident where one of our instructees repeatedly swept the entire line during a live fire qualification, once its accidendental twice, we are instructed to ensure the safety of every person on the line by whatever means neccessary(except in certain limited cases lethal force)

Ala Dan
March 3, 2007, 08:51 AM
My suggestion is very simple, "if you don't like getting swept by the muzzle
of a firearm, then DO NOT apply for a job in a gun shop"~! Sounds harsh,
and kind'a like a smart a$$ doesn't it? Please don't take it that way, cuz
what I was referring to is exactly what so many others have said. As an
employee of one of the South's finest sporting goods store/gun shop, I
get swept constantly from customers handling handguns to long guns.
We all try to ensure the safety of our customers, as well as our staff;
but as we all know, accidents can (and sometimes) do occur.

DontBurnMyFlag
March 3, 2007, 09:27 AM
Well, when I go gun shopping, I always go to the same guy. We chat and he hands me guns and I check em out etc. He always checks that they are unloaded, but after that the 4 rules go out the window. Not because hes not responsible, but because we are using common sense. The muzzle may cross over one of us or we might handle them in a more laid back fashion. We know nothing is going to go wrong and we are comfortable not complacent.

When another customer comes in, its back to the 4 rules.

Shaughn Leayme
March 3, 2007, 10:15 AM
This would be back 50 years ago or more, my father was over at a friends place and he had just received a new pistol, I don't recall what it was save for a 22 semi auto, it was removed from it's box and the magazine ejected and the slide was racked and out pooped a 22 shell and there was 2 in the magazine and this was for a NIB, direct from the manufacturer. So treating every gun as loaded, leaves no room for complacency or for Murphy to rear his ugly head.

Personally, I hate going anywhere near gun counters, because, while an occasional sweep is something I can live with, don't like it....You always get the dimbulb who aims directly at you:cuss: and then pulls the trigger and many times I imagine they don't even see you there or plain don't care.

If I ever were to open a gunshop, I think a sign along the lines of..."If you point a gun at some one, they have the right to shoot back"....would be posted alongside the 4 rules.

There is no excuse for careless handing of firearms, be careless with a knife and odds are good only you will get cut, be careless with a firearm and odds are even better that an innocent bystander will get injured or killed.

For those who say chill out dude, get shot because of someones stupidity and spend months in rehab, then come back and see me and see if your opinion changes.

Spent Shell
March 3, 2007, 11:11 AM
Always check.

I can verify a gun isn't loaded about as fast as I can pick it up, what, about 2 seconds to look? If two seconds eliminates the possibility of a mistake I don't understand why one wouldn't, even if things were busy at a retail store. It makes me uncomfortable when others don't.

I recently purchased a gun online and had it sent to an FFL I don't usually use. When I went to pick it up the employee pulled the box out of the safe an placed it on the counter. Now, I'm guessing they checked it before it went into the safe, but still a number of different people work there. Of course I turned the box so I could pick it up in a safe direction and checked the chamber. I wanted to dry fire the gun a few times (as it was used) to check function. The employee was at the other end of the counter so I aimed at the wall behind the counter (and down) and checked function. I was absolutley amazed when the employee walked right across in front of me without even giving notice. Again I naturally lowered the firearm as he passed, but he wasn't even concerned/paying attention.

Now I know he probably saw me clear the gun, and heard me pull the trigger a few times already, but there is just somthing wrong about walking in front of a firearm that is being function checked. I couldn't do it. Heck, I was really uncomfortable with him about to walk in front of me. I kept the situation safe, but was amazed he wasn't even the slightest bit concerned with those actions.

XavierBreath
March 3, 2007, 11:18 AM
as for the comment about immobilization, i was reminded of an incident where one of our instructees repeatedly swept the entire line during a live fire qualification, once its accidendental twice, we are instructed to ensure the safety of every person on the line by whatever means neccessary(except in certain limited cases lethal force)We are talking about a civilian gun counter. A store. A place of business.

Regardless of any "whatever means neccessary" instructions you may have received at a range somewhere, the same does not apply at a gun counter, and those instructions will probably not help you defend your actions in a court of law.

I am an ardent supporter of gun safety, and the four rules. I do not appreciate being swept by muzzles. Wrestling matches with unwilling opponents at gun counters are not the way to get your ideas across, however. That is going too far. I can't condone that. If you believe that course of action is correct and can be defended legally, go ahead and try it. Let us know how it works out.

Thank you for the link.
Design: This new technology works when the key engages with the lock and two molded cones come together, which then expands a soft aluminum ring and locks in the chamber. In the case of an automatic pistol, the lock engages the extractor, locks the slide onto the frame and renders the gun inoperable. In all shotguns and rifles, the locking system bypasses all extractors and ejectors. In revolvers, the lock goes through the cylinder, into the barrel, and locks the cylinder, trigger and hammer, freezing the entire gun. Because these locks are internal, they are also caliber specific, not gun specific, allowing them to be more secure and more effective than external gunlock designs.

KimKommando
March 3, 2007, 10:11 PM
I agree that there are some folks who have no business being on the other side of a gun counter, but keep in mind that they are SALESMEN. This means that they can sell anything. Whether they are weapons professionals is another matter. I personally have no problems at my gun shop, I have been going there for years and the folks that are worth a damn typically stay. The idiots last a month and are gone. Some of these folks never handled a firearm before. Believe it.
I have had one salesman in a store hand me a non-cleared weapon and I let him know verbally that he needed to pull the slide back before he handed me the gun. He smiled and locked the slide to the rear and handed me the pistol. Sometimes they get complacent in the fact that they "know" the weapon is cleared.

.cheese.
March 3, 2007, 10:41 PM
my first time in a local shop I was greeted at the door by somebody pointing a rifle right at me (trying it out).

The owner said, "Don't worry, it's not loaded."

and I said, "Famous last words."

haven't been back. That's what happens when you violate the rules with me.

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