Did Rube Goldberg Help JMB with the BHP???


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DogBonz
March 2, 2007, 09:52 PM
Ok, let me start by saying that I love my HiPower, it points like my finger, is accurate, and reliable.

That said. What, in the name of Bugs Bunnie's cotton tail is up with the fire system? I would never be one to question JMB's infinite wisdom, but come on, you pull the trigger. The trigger moves up a lifter, that pokes a lever in the slide, which pushes down a lever that actuates the sear that releases the hammer.

This does not seem like a good system for a nice smooth trigger pull. Can any one please tell me what is up Doc? Why this is this way.

Thank you

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Stephen A. Camp
March 2, 2007, 10:01 PM
Hello. At least part of it is because Mr. Browning had sold his patent rights on the 1911 to Colt and he could not use that system at FN. Part might be because the Hi Power as originally envisioned by Browning was a larger pistol but one that was striker-fired. How much Mr. D. Saive, designer of the FAL rifle, and the man who finished the Hi Power while going with the external hammer and firing pin combination, had to do with the firing system I don't know. My weakest point on Hi Powers is its history and developement.

Best.

HorseSoldier
March 2, 2007, 10:13 PM
Echoing Mr Camp, I believe Saive designed the trigger group for the P-35. The main feature retained from Browning's work before his death was the linkless barrel-slide lock up (which was the patent referenced by FN's "Browning's Patent Depose" vebage on the slide).

BHPshooter
March 3, 2007, 12:02 AM
I believe Saive designed the trigger group for the P-35.

Nope, JMB did design that part of it. There is very little difference in the trigger linkage between the Grand Rendement and the Hi Power as we know it, other than the fact that the former was striker fired.

If you look up the patent for the Grand Rendement, (granted 1927, I believe) you'll find that the trigger linkage parts are included in the design drawings.

As for the never-ending debate on whether or not JMB or Saive had more to do with the design, consider this: JMB designed the Grand Rendement, which Saive refined after his death. In 1928, when the Colt 1911 patents expired, Saive incorporated some of its features into the design -- which, IMO, means that JMB influenced the design both directly and indirectly.

That is not to say that one had more influence than the other -- I consider it a 50/50 collaboration by two men, both geniuses.

Wes

DogBonz
March 3, 2007, 05:57 PM
So is it possible to get a 1911 quality trigger job done to a HP? Also, how much is the trigger pull improved by taking out the magazine safety?

Thanks

RecoilRob
March 3, 2007, 06:17 PM
Blocking the mag safety plunger in the compressed position made a world of difference in my HP. Not having that shoe sliding up and down the mag lightens and smooths out the pull greatly.

And, bonus is the mags now drop free when you punch the button.

1911Tuner
March 3, 2007, 06:54 PM
One thing to bear in mind is that the P-35...like the M1911...was designed primarily to be a military issue sidearm rather than a target pistol. Had the criteria called for a crisp 4-pound trigger, I'm sure that Mr. Browning or Mr. Saive could have delivered...but it wasn't. That the 1911 can be reworked to provide that is both a testament to the basic design and the intense following that the gun has had through the years, and the continued development of target accoutrements that have been ever-present in the minds of the shooting public and the manufacturers who build them and the high-end smiths who rebuild them for such purposes.

Another thing to consider is that when the 1911 is reworked to reduce clearances in the quest for accuracy...and with that 3.5-pound glass-rod trigger that everyone has become so enamored with...that it's essentially out of spec.

Stephen A. Camp
March 3, 2007, 08:31 PM
Hello. It is my understanding that most Hi Power 'smiths offer a 4 sto 4.5-lb trigger pull for the Hi Power. I have a couple in the 4-lb range and they've worked fine for years. Most are in the 4.5 to 5.5-lb range but the trigger pulls break cleanly. I have noticed no particular differences in "groupability" or even split-times when shooting either. None of mine have as "nice" of trigger pulls as a custom tuned 1911, but neither are they "bad"; I find them imminently useable.

Best.

DogBonz
March 4, 2007, 06:15 PM
I know that the 1911 and the HP were military sidearms, and a pretty trigger was never part of the package, but I thought, and I may be wrong here, but the 1911's trigger can be made so nice because of the simple, directly rearward motion of the pull. The trigger and the part that contact the sear is one and the same. Very few moving parts, makes it able to be tuned to a high level.

I don't need a 3LB smooth as glass trigger, but I would like something that is the same each and every time. It seams that sometimes, the trigger is smooth and nice, and sometimes it is heavy and gritty.

BHPshooter
March 4, 2007, 09:40 PM
Another thing to consider is that when the 1911 is reworked to reduce clearances in the quest for accuracy...and with that 3.5-pound glass-rod trigger that everyone has become so enamored with...that it's essentially out of spec.

An excellent and oft-overlooked point. It does speak to its versatility that it can be made like that, though. :)

It seams that sometimes, the trigger is smooth and nice, and sometimes it is heavy and gritty.

That is the mag disconnect making itself known. I've been lucky, I guess -- my Browning and my FN were both really consistent with their mag disconnects in place (but I took them out anyway). However, I did have an FM-Argentine HP that was gritty with it in place. Polishing the disconnect and the top face of the mags would have smoothed it up also, but I just removed that one as well. Why mess with it? ;)

As far as the FN/Browning guns go, in my experience the only 'trigger job' they need is the removal of the mag disconnect. I almost require that for my BHPs as a necessary mod. I did go for 3 years with the one in my Browning, but I finally took it out a couple of months ago, and I'm not lookin' back. :cool:

Wes

Stephen A. Camp
March 4, 2007, 09:54 PM
Hello, sir. A clean and consistent trigger pull is certainly possible with the Hi Power. A competent 'smith can handle that nicely for you.

Removal of the magazine disconnect will probably help a great deal in that regard by itself.

Best.

Cliff47
March 5, 2007, 04:12 PM
Mr. Saive is responsible for getting the double-stack magazine to function, reliably. For JMB, it was a concept that the French requested as part of the design.

Vonderek
March 5, 2007, 05:28 PM
Here are a couple of photos of the Grand Redenment patent schematics if anyone is interested:
http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k98/dreamcatchermedia/browninggr1.jpg


http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k98/dreamcatchermedia/browninggr2.jpg

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