Perceptions of the US by Middle Eastern immigrants


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Oleg Volk
March 3, 2007, 01:00 AM
I have a friend from Persia who was concerned that people find out about her learning to shoot and consider her a terrorist. Today, a person I invited to the range asked if I could get in trouble for teaching a Muslim man to shoot guns.

Seems to me that we should be aware of this concern when talking to those we invite to come shooting with us. Not everyone would voice it directly.

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FieroCDSP
March 3, 2007, 01:46 AM
I was under the belief that middle-easterners were born with the knowledge of how to use an AK and how to blow themselves up.

That statement was in poor jest, and also a comment on our own stereo-typing. We (not to mention the US Government) assume the person you taught to shoot is a terrorist without actually knowing them. This is due to the fact that as little as we listen to the media, they still have power in that they know how to play to subconscious fears.
When you think terrorist, you think sneak attacks, random bombings, etc. I'd imagine even the most hardcore gunny has a deep-down fear of a sneak attack. Waking up to a gun picking his nose, being shot dead in his sleep, etc... It's only human.
So when we see a middle-easterner shooting at the range, what does it take to overcome a deep-seated fear?

Could you get in trouble for teaching shooting to someone who eventually turned out to be an actual terrorist? Probably. IN any attack, heads will roll. Feds like paperwork, and will trace anyone involved in an attack to what they had for breakfast when they were twelve. I doubt the Feds could prove anything, but in a paranoid society, they don't have to. You have a link that involves a killer and a weapon. You're an accessory. That's one of those laws that suck in a lot of ways.

Could you get in trouble for teaching someone who doesn't want to kill people how to use a gun. I doubt it. You'd be more likely to get in trouble for teaching them how to drink beer. The way they hand out DL's to foreigners that can't speak English, they could drink and drive. No NICS check (yet) on DL's people.

Just my thoughts at a late hour. Oleg, we'd all stand up for you if anyone questioned your patriotism. Unless you really ARE a terrorist :eek:

bogie
March 3, 2007, 01:53 AM
Boomsticks are as American as apple pie. And if they're coming to Oleg for training, they're probably not terrorists - they've got their own gig...

Empower away.

Thain
March 3, 2007, 02:04 AM
There was a time, Oleg, when many would have had the same concerns about teaching a black man, an eastern european, an asian, or a Jew to shoot.

I am of Jewish ancestry, through my father's father, and have the prominent nose, dark hair, and (for thelast few years) a beard that many consider rather full and long. (To the typical hunter/shooter its short. To the MTV generation, I'm a shaggy hippie. To the hippies, I'm too well groomed.) Anyhow, when I'm in my shrt-and-tie for work, running from court house to court house filign papers, I get called "rabbi" a lot.

Now, in a t-shirt and jeans, looking over the defense rifles and shorter barreled shotguns at the local gun-and-knife show or pawn shop... yeah, everyone looks at me and thinks one thing (http://discharges.org/h/0606/).

Frankly, I could care less.

Oleg Volk
March 3, 2007, 02:11 AM
Concern I mention isn't mine -- it is the concern of the people considering taking up the offer of gun safety training. Have to be aware of their concerns and address them.

bogie
March 3, 2007, 02:11 AM
Heck, I'm goyim, and if I wear my "walk to church on shabbas" hat, they think I'm Jewish...

Darn fine hat for walking tho...

cslinger
March 3, 2007, 02:19 AM
Gunnys are gunnys. I don't care about her color, sex, religion or sexual orientation. As long as she is a responsible gun owner willing to do what is right then I could care less who she prays to.

Fact is there are lots of us gunnies who might not agree on many things, that doesn't make one or the other right. It does however make us all gunnies and to me that brings us together. Terrorists attack the innocent, gunnies do not no matter what race or religion they are, she is welcome as far as I am concerned.

Chris

Thain
March 3, 2007, 02:20 AM
Concern I mention isn't mine -- it is the concern of the people considering taking up the offer of gun safety training. Have to be aware of their concerns and address them.

This is a fair concern, but just remind them that their are safely trainning people who are legally exercising their basic human right, with lawfully owned firearms, in a safe and controlled setting.

Black, yellow, white, or olive skinned...

To those "red bluud'ed `mericans" who have a problem teaching "dem dere aye-rab ter'rist evil do'ers" how to shoot, I'd point out that if they hate us because of our freedoms then our second ammendment is one of those freedoms that they do not enjoy in the Middle East, Persia, or anywhere else...

DoubleTapDrew
March 3, 2007, 02:21 AM
Knowing how to shoot doesn't make someone a terrorist.
If that person does something criminal with that knowledge then that's another issue. Terrorism doesn't know race, religion, sexual preference, shoe size, or favorite color. I don't have a problem with a muslim, jew, or christian learning how to shoot. If they decide to turn that gun on me and attempt to do some ethnic cleansing, then I will do everything in my power to stop that.

mbt2001
March 3, 2007, 02:29 AM
From Johnny Tremain by Ester Forbes

James Otis asking Sam Adams and the "Sons of Liberty" why they were fighting the British... Was it for the repeal of taxes? To get rid of the British? For the rights of Englishmen everywhere?

"Why stop with Englishmen? ... For men, women all over the world! ... for even as we shoot down British soldiers, we are fighting for rights such as they will be enjoying 100 years from now.

..."It is so much simpler than you think... We give all we have, lives, property, safety, skills... we fight, we die, for a simple thing.... Only, that a man can stand up."

Beetle Bailey
March 3, 2007, 02:33 AM
I have a friend from Persia who was concerned that people find out about her learning to shoot and consider her a terrorist.

That's a tough one. The way I see it, a real terrorist would try to remain as low-key as possible. However, I know more than a few people with irrational fears about Middle Easterners. I could see them jumping to conclusions if they find out a Middle Easterner was learning how to shoot a gun. Your Persian friend might not want that kind of attention.

On the other hand, she still has the right to self-defense, and you can impress upon her that she shouldn't feel the need to give that right up in order to accommodate the irrational fears of those who do not even respect her as a human being.

In the end, it's gonna be her call. But that doesn't mean you can't help things along by introducing her to as many friendly shooters as possible. I suspect that if she is made to feel welcome by a variety of gunowners, it would go a long way towards allaying those concerns. Good luck and please let us know how things develop.

cslinger
March 3, 2007, 02:37 AM
We as gun owners have to be ambassadors to all so to speak. We are ourselves men/women without a country so to speak. If we start judging books by proverbial covers then we are no better then the antis.

As I said before welcome all who come to us. Terrorists are wrong, evil and have no place here but to denouce one as such without evidence makes us no better then those who would denouce us as baby killers or mass murderers.

I wish the world could get together, get drunk, throw a few punches, fall down and then laugh about it. Would be a better place.

Its hard in todays world but we must put asside racisim based on race, religion creed, or anything else. Unfortunitely there are *********s all over, the problem is they come from all walks, creeds, races, and religions so there is no easy way to pick them out.

I have to fight very hard my inate racism for those of middle eastern decent after 911, I do however know that in MOST if not all cases my bias is wrong and as such I must say any gunny is a good gunny as long as they are a responsible member of our community.

Logan5
March 3, 2007, 02:39 AM
It worries me that your friend can and does worry about this. When people start engaging in a lot of fearful self policing behavior because their perception is that they might get a SWAT team or a cruise missle down their chimney, they might as well not have the rights they're keeping themselves from enjoying.

cslinger
March 3, 2007, 02:46 AM
It worries me that your friend can and does worry about this. When people start engaging in a lot of fearful self policing behavior because their perception is that they might get a SWAT team or a cruise missle down their chimney, they might as well not have the rights they're keeping themselves from enjoying.

Amen. This is America dammit. We are a melting pot. We are stronger for our diversity and one should only be guilty if proven so. Safety isn't freedom and freedom isn't always safe. One of the greatest things about our society is that we are not the safest people in the world and we are some of the most generous, open people around. No matter what the world thinks. I have my hang ups, my predjudices and I am ashamed to admit I have them but dammit my single personal views are not what this country was founded on. But what do I know.

Chris

Oleg Volk
March 3, 2007, 02:53 AM
cslinger,

Would you and Sheslinger like to come out this Sunday and help me out with introducing the newbies to RKBA?

Oleg

BTW, the Persian lady is fast and accurate with a .357 now.

cslinger
March 3, 2007, 02:55 AM
I am in. Understand that I do have certain predjudices that I am not proud of. I know they are wrong but I do wrestle with them. But newbiees are the best gunnys and the ones that make us stonger so....

What time and where.

Chris

bogie
March 3, 2007, 03:00 AM
If there are any opinionated wannabe patriots there, just tell 'em that she's Persian, and has been on our side a long time... Since they probably know about the geography of their county, and maybe one neighboring one, you should be good to go.

cslinger
March 3, 2007, 03:04 AM
BTW, the Persian lady is fast and accurate with a .357 now.

Well hell she likes .357 maggie and that makes her ok in my book.

Dr. Dickie
March 3, 2007, 06:31 AM
I have a friend from Persia...

That is interesting Oleg. Did you use Persia, or does your friend say she is from Persia? It would be ironic indeed if you used Persia rather than Iran because you thought we might be more likely to judge her a terrorist. I'm not causing trouble here, when I say something is interesting, I mean just that. I find some things interesting that others do not.
It was my understanding that the Persians have always called themselves Iranians. Very rich and powerful history.
As far as the bigotry goes, asking someone to the range is always fraught with misunderstandings: the inviting a middle-eastern person who might be thought a terrorist is a new one.
As much as I hate to say it, that likely would be the first thought to jump into my mind if I saw 4 or 5 middle-eastern persons together practicing at the range. If it was a single middle-eastern person with other non-obvious middle-easterners, or they were there by themselves I doubt that would enter my mind. But remember, we are wired to recognize patterns, especially patterns that might be pleasurable or painful (death being the ultimate pain). Just recognizing the pattern does not dictate my actions based on the pattern. Would I give 4 or 5 middle-eastern looking folks practicing at the range a closer look, sure. But generally when I am on the back bays by myself, I give everyone else at least the once over. I would also give anyone under 40 years of age a hard once over look (why is Abie Hoffman in my head).
People have a variety of reactions to being asked to go shooting, I will have to keep this one in mind. Thanks Oleg.

Brian Dale
March 3, 2007, 06:40 AM
BTW, the Persian lady is fast and accurate with a .357 now.She sounds like an American at heart, then, whatever her citizenship. ;)

Travis McGee
March 3, 2007, 10:15 AM
If a person is a loyal American, who gives a darn where they came from, or their parents' religion?

To avoid any possible misunderstanding, I would just suggest dressing patriotically, and putting a patriotic sticker on the car. "Show your true colors" IOW.

By dressing patriotically, I mean a t-shirt with a patriotic theme, etc.

Lucky
March 3, 2007, 11:15 AM
So you all are saying:

A)Profiling is wrong.

B)Profiling is wrong when it's someone I know.

C)Profiling is wrong when it's someone I know, but it still works so I'll look the other way because it doesn't really affect me.


If there's another option shout it out.

Kali Endgame
March 3, 2007, 11:31 AM
If it was only individuals and not an organized team, I wouldn't have a problem. If I happened to stumble on a group of people with a complex mock up of a known building or structure and performing CQB training, I would be a little apprehensive. ICORE, IDSPA, and other training would get most people to wonder about the intentions of the group.

Glockfan.45
March 3, 2007, 11:33 AM
Today, a person I invited to the range asked if I could get in trouble for teaching a Muslim man to shoot guns.

Thats really sad and pathetic that you would even be asked that. Now I will defend profiling at airports to a point, but if somebody asks if its legal to teach a muslim to shoot I could only just walk away in disgust. The indoor range I visit in the winter to shoot my pistols in gets quite a few African Americans that come in to shoot. It really pisses me off when I here other folks there make comments like "practicing for a drive by" when they are out of earshot. What our cause doesnt need is racist bigots creating stereotypes the make all gun owners out to be the same. Take her shooting and if anybody gives you grief about it tell them to go screw.

Pax Jordana
March 3, 2007, 12:15 PM
for the time it has taken me to read to the bottom of the thread, and have arrived at only this:

Profiling will happen, sadly. Sometimes our instincts are right, sometimes not. It's profiling to note how a dog's tail is moving and if he's showing you some teeth while he barks at you, and in cases like that who can blame you?

The most significant trait we, as gunnies and hopeful instructors of a new generation should judge ALL the time in evaluating new shooters is moral judgement. Age, race, gender, sexual preference, et al, MAY have SOME bearing on it, but at the root of the problem is, will the person I'm teaching use the skills I help them develop for good?

I hope I say this right.. But (imho) the only people who do not 'deserve' to know how to use guns effectively and safely, those who should simply be told "do not touch," are those who lack the judgement to apply their skills responsibly.


Oleg, I don't wanna hijack this thread. Can we start a new one on ideas for luring new shooters into our evil instructing clutches? :evil:

Kaylee
March 3, 2007, 12:26 PM
Given the nutjobs running Iran, teaching women from there how to shoot is absolutely a good thing. Ugh...

Travis makes a good point if she's concerned. A little bit of "I'm on your side" can go a long way towards loosening other folk up if she's worried. That said, I don't know as she'd have much to worry about. Heck, thirty years ago folks would have been looking funny at you wandering about an American range, but now you're an American Icon. :p


-K

Titan6
March 3, 2007, 12:35 PM
Pre 9/11 I am in a school for mid grade military officers. About 1/3 of our class are allied officers from various nations. One day we are sitting around chatting and one thing that the Turkish and Egyptian officers keep bringing up is that in their countries only flunkies and lackeys drive pick up trucks. The other thing is the American fascination with firearms they don't get it. Finnally I let fly; I own 11 firearms and drive a pick up truck.

I swear I thought the Turkish was going to wet his pants. His total demeanor changed towards me and he actually looked afraid of me for the next two months until he left. The Egyptian guy I actually took the range later he had a great time. I don't think anyone ever gave us a second look. It was pre 9/11 though......

DMK
March 3, 2007, 01:05 PM
At the turn of the last generation German-Americans were feared and shunned due to the selfish and desperate actions of the Kaiser across the ocean. 25 years later, Japanese-Americans were feared and stripped of their rights due to the selfish and desperate actions of Tojo across the ocean. The fear and hate of latinos and blacks was due to the actions of the few selfish and desperate. I never could figure out what the prejudice against Jews was all about. Now Americans and other westerners fear and shun all those of Arab decent or those who identify themselves with a certain peaceful religion, again due to the selfish and desperate actions of few.

In a lot of ways gun owners have a lot in common with those groups. We all are feared and shunned as a group due to the selfish and terrible actions of a few. If we were more visibly identifiable to the public in our daily lives (like the above people), we'd probably have it worse.

Fear and hate are easier than understanding and compassion. It seems fear and hate are the default actions of human beings sometimes. It is easy to see someone who does evil as being non-human without a thought to them having fears and hopes and feelings and family who love them. It is then easy to identify all who look the same, come from the same place or have similar beliefs as also being sub-human. As humans, we look for patterns to protect ourselves(in all aspects of our lives, it's how our brains work). Understanding and compassion take work, hard thought and deliberation.

Fear and hate are the tools of evil. They are the means of our destruction, all of us. The actions of a few like Pearl Harbor, 9/11, or a wacko shooting up a school are mere sparks that ignite a fire. Fear and hate are the flames that consume us and leave humankind with nothing but misery.

Personally, I think Americans should remember two things:

An individual is innocent until proven guilty.

All human beings have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness

Professor K
March 3, 2007, 01:49 PM
I dealt with this issue before, not with shooting, but with airsoft.

I wanted to bring my Indian friend airsofting, but my friend wouldnt let me. He said that something bad would probably happen, since most of the people playing are ex-military, and dont like middle eastern looking people too much.

I guess just go bring whoever you want shooting. It's a pretty diverse sport, I think.

I remember the second time I ever shot a gun, in Florida. I went to the range, and this hot chick just a few years older than me was shooting a few lanes over, and then these 2 black guys were shooting with a Glock 22, getting practice for a CCW, and a Hispanic guy was shooting, too. They were a bit foulmouthed, but they were pretty safe and conducted themselves pretty well. However, the Italian/Hispanic guy took my lane, which lead to a funny conversation in the lane over.

"Hey, some guy downstairs claimed that lane."
"I'm that guy downstairs."
"Oh."
"Well the guy who was shooting there is gonna be pissed."
"Oh..."

The guy left his Beretta and a box of ammo there, I didnt touch it, being not my gun and all... But he came back, bitched about the owner, and just shared a lane with someone.

It was interesting to me, as I thought shooting really was just for strange crazy white folk like myself, but this opened my eyes a lot. Crazy gun nut white folk, black people, hispanics, ect, all shooting together and having fun. I liked it, I dont think that happens as much in CT as I saw in Florida. I also realized I need to move out of CT, and that Florida is pretty sweet. And Ruger Mk. 1s are fun.

If any of you are in Florida, go check out Big Al's Gun and Pawn, it's a nice store. I wanna go back there so bad when I go take another trip to Florida.

Lucky
March 3, 2007, 03:13 PM
Pax there's still the matter of right and wrong. Profiling may 'work', if you detain a thousand Iranians and catch a dozen Iranian terrorists by doing so. But that does not justify it.

Seriously, if the ends justified the means then the police would be justified in randomly searching everyone's homes, just like they do cells in prisons, because that's an effective way to locate weapons.

Pax Jordana
March 3, 2007, 06:13 PM
I did not mean to imply that profiling is right, just that it's human instinct. It would be a sophisticated (and, I pray, rare) criminal indeed that thought about these things ahead of time and sought to evade the 'profile'.

And besides, if profiling saves just one life... :barf: ah, kidding.


For future reference, Pax is Pax. If my forum nick requires a nick, go with hso's recommendation and call me "PJ". or, sir would always work :rolleyes:

Atticus
March 3, 2007, 06:24 PM
A friend (and coworker) of mine is a Muslim from Bangladesh. He was really interested in learning to shoot, and he eventually wanted to buy a gun...but then he started worrying about being put on a government list, and he's never brought it up again. In today's climate, he might be right. Maybe someday.

22-rimfire
March 3, 2007, 06:45 PM
Until bombs start blowing up in the streets in the USA, I think Americans will be quite tolerant of anyone of Middle Eastern descent. You start having bombs blow up with any frequency such as is happening in Iraq these days geared toward killing civilians, all bets are off. I hope this situation does not develop in the US. I like peace and I like to feel safe. Middle Easterners here should try to ensure that this does not happen. I want them to feel safe too. They have this power if they are willing to exercise it.

Brian Dale
March 3, 2007, 07:06 PM
Middle Easterners here should try to ensure that this does not happen...They have this power if they are willing to exercise it.Sure...about as much power as I have as a white person in 2007 to keep General Sherman from burning farms on his way to the sea.

I'm off this thread.

22-rimfire
March 3, 2007, 07:24 PM
Personally, I encourage anyone who is interested to learn to shoot and to enjoy the shooting sports.

rkh
March 3, 2007, 08:03 PM
yeah, everyone looks at me and thinks one thing


They think you're Dahler Mehndi, famed taxicab driver cum Bollywood pop artist, rocking out to some 80's anthem?

Wow. I wish I commanded that degree of presence.
Vishnu be praised, and pass the AR.

SoCalShooter
March 3, 2007, 08:11 PM
Gunnys are gunnys. I don't care about her color, sex, religion or sexual orientation. As long as she is a responsible gun owner willing to do what is right then I could care less who she prays to.

This summarizes the way I feel about it. I say train away.

KimKommando
March 3, 2007, 09:00 PM
I was at the pistol range and was pleasantly surprised to see a young Muslim girl there today. Good for her. I think all women should be empowered to learn shooting and learn it well. I hope that I will see her again in the future. As far as teaching a Muslim, what difference would that make?? It is their choice in this country, if they didn't believe that, they would be somewhere else.

Titan6
March 3, 2007, 09:14 PM
Muslim Women are not even allowed to drive in most countries. Guns are normally way off limits. I am really surprised that she was allowed to shoot a gun by her family. It was not that long ago that women in this country were treated as little more than chattel for the most part. Sometimes we forget how far we have come in 100 years.

Women in most Muslim countries are really treated like $h1+. Muslims I have talked to make various excuses about why women are treated this way and imply that it is not that bad, but it is bad and in a lot of cases worse than you might think.

If she is learning to shoot that is a very unusual situation unless they have been in the US for a very long time or are enlightened in some way.

Danus ex
March 3, 2007, 09:14 PM
I'd be interested to know if shooters of Middle Eastern descent get more glares at the range when they're alone or with other minorities as opposed to being there with a white friend, presumably under "white supervision" to prejudiced onlookers.

Wesson Smith
March 3, 2007, 09:21 PM
Wow. Just perused this thread. Think I'll bow out, as well. From the P.C. tone I sense, I doubt any comments on my part would be welcome. Carry on!

Lucky
March 3, 2007, 09:26 PM
The more people that'd glare at them, the more justified they'd be for practicing there.

Incidentally, pics from Iran

(I can't find the one with them drawing their guns Israeli-style, and jumping out of a car)

http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/IranianPolice04-031105.jpg
http://www.cominganarchy.com/images/iran_women_police.jpg

Oleg Volk
March 3, 2007, 09:36 PM
I do not have photos of my ex-Bangladeshi co-worker yet, but he is coming to the range with his wife, son and daughter. I guess he's not practicing much domestic oppression.

Here's how Muslims I know look:

http://olegvolk.net/gallery/d/1479-2/eva2.jpg
Married a Kurd, moved to Kurdistan (N.Iraq) with her husband, now lives in Nashville with him and two kids.

http://olegvolk.net/gallery/d/906-2/derek.jpg
His wife is a physician. I guess his past service in the US Army took so much effort that he got fell behind on both domestic abuse and domestic terrorism. Oh, and he runs this forum for us.

Muslim does not always mean "Middle-Eastern, bent on establishing the Caliphate on the Mississippi". It could mean "fifth-generation American" or "recent immigrant who wants to assimilate". The range trips I provide are part of the assimilation, together with the on-going introduction to Smith, Jefferson and Bastiat. The worst thing we can do is to snub these people and force them out of the mainstream. I've met people from Phillipines and Pakistan who wanted only to become American and not live as they did back home. That, by the way, is more than many European immigrants did -- remember the Irish and the German and the Jewish neighborhoods so common between 1890 and 1930?

KimKommando
March 3, 2007, 09:43 PM
I like the way you think, Oleg. Most of the Kurds I met in Iraq were great people, just sad. It's a shame the things people fight over (power). It is weird to me that people can hate a whole group of people just because a few of the more militant ones cause a problem. I hate terrorists, not Muslims.

mattw
March 3, 2007, 09:52 PM
If I saw a muslim at the range I would probably think about it for a second, make a joke in poor taste and move on. I am of the belief that if you come to America you should do your best to become an American. That means speak our language and practice our customs. Embracing the second amendment would be mighty high on my list of American things to do if I had just come from somewhere in the violent, turbulent middle east.

You really think terrorists would do something like go to a public range and draw that kind of attention to themselves?

Delta608
March 3, 2007, 10:09 PM
You really think terrorists would do something like go to a public range and draw that kind of attention to themselves?

Why not, worked for flight school....:neener:

Titan6
March 3, 2007, 10:12 PM
I find Prof Ks comments interesting. I have been in the military a long time and haven't met a lot of people who 'dont like middle eastern looking people'. Usually the race problems I run across are B anti W/ W anti B. Even that is becoming more of rarity but you still see it occasionally. I think it is much less so than in the rest of American society.

I have been to Iraq, Q8, and SA and in all those countries women are treated like straight up dirt 90% of the time. Since Islam is the only state authorized religion it is not hard to associate all of Islam with bigotry. In this country is less so but it still happens quite a lot.

Seeing those pictures of the Iranian women reminded me IIRC they started that during the Iran / Iraq war when the talented Iranian Generals began advocating 'Human Wave' attacks into the machine guns to overcome the Iraqi forces (unsuccessfully). Treating people like human garbage resulted in huge numbers of killed and wounded and a man power shortage that forced them to look elswhere for fresh meat.

mattw
March 3, 2007, 10:13 PM
Why not, worked for flight school...

Yeah but how many of us saw that one coming? Using a firearm for terrorist acts is a no-brainer.

Delta608
March 3, 2007, 10:18 PM
Yeah but how many of us saw that one coming?

Actually, quite a few....!! :what: But I was being facitious in my reply to you..Not personal...Sorry..:o

mattw
March 3, 2007, 10:56 PM
Understood, Delta608. I was just thinking more along the lines of "how many people would've freaked out if they saw a middle-easterner at flight school vs. how many people would've freaked out if they saw a middle-easterner at a shooting range." Granted there were hijackings before 9/11, but how many times did the terrorists actually fly the plane? Usually they just hold a gun to the pilot's head and tell him to land the plane or take them somewhere they can hold the passengers hostage until their friends are released from prison.

Titan6
March 3, 2007, 11:19 PM
Actor James Wood reported to the FBI what the FBI now believes was a rehearsal of 911 hijacking by the actual hijackers. They did nothing with the info. So yeah some people 'freaked out' if you want to call it that. Too bad the FBI was looking for survivalists out in the western plains states and not really interested in actual terrorists.

Cato the Younger
March 3, 2007, 11:33 PM
I will say, however, that, like Professor K, I have noticed a big difference between the North and South in this respect. Up in Illinois, there are fewer gun owners, and they are mostly upper-class whites in urban areas, and rural residents (who are generally overwhelmingly white). Part of this has to do with economics, and the legal barriers to acquring arms/shooting in the large urban centers- i.e. you have to drive 2 hours from Chicago proper to get to a decent rifle range/ Chicago and Illinois strict gun laws/FOID requirement. Another aspect is cultural- at least in the Chicago area, it is almost automatically assumed that a civillian with a firearm has no legitimate use for it. However, in Texas you have
- less structural barriers to firearms ownership (no FOID, no waiting periods)
- more gun owners/stores/places to shoot- cheaper to get into it down here
- more cultural acceptance of shooting

When I go to the range in San Antonio with my Hispanic friend, I have met and spoken with individuals from every racial and ethnic group- one was an African-American gentleman from Baltimore, with whom I discussed our mutual joy at coming to Texas and fleeing oppressive gun laws. So, I guess to get to the point, bring as many people/types of people to the range as possible, to promote RKBA- It was nice to see all kinds of people shooting, and not have them instantly labeled as a "gangbanger/thug/terrorist (I am mediterranean with a full beard)
terrorists are not going to go out in public and train with joe sixpack, I believe,
and I have personally found immigrants tend to be extremely patriotic, especially if they contrast the current freedom found in USA with the oppression of their homeland- for example those who fled the Iron Curtain, Cubans, etc. However, even those who just moved to America for a better life are extremely patriotic, at least from those I have met and dealt with.

Delta608
March 3, 2007, 11:55 PM
Too bad the FBI was looking for survivalists out in the western plains states and not really interested in actual terrorists.


What were you doing...?? Dont bother its rhetorical...:banghead:

Titan6
March 4, 2007, 12:19 AM
Gosh, at that exact moment in time I was commanding a unit in the military. At that point in time it was not my job to find terrorists or look for hijacked planes trying to crash into buildings.

Those orders came afterwards...

hankdatank1362
March 4, 2007, 12:20 AM
In case anybody missed it, go back to post #4 and read what Thain had to say.

And then, please click on the link. :D :D :D

captain clay
March 4, 2007, 12:28 AM
Muslims do not belong in America much less are they deserving of firearms training\ownership.
We interned japanese during WW-2 while at war with their people ,why not round up these folks and lock them down in camps.
Lets not forget that that mall shooter in Colorado was a muslim from bosnia.

Titan6
March 4, 2007, 12:36 AM
So it was you that wrote the Patriot Act! You did a great job keeping it secret... but now we know. Now before we fire up the ovens if you could please give me your family history so we can work out which camp to put you in.

Kaylee
March 4, 2007, 12:45 AM
watch the generalizations there Captain.

This site wouldn't exist without the dedication, expertise, and toil of a good Muslim man.

-K

rbernie
March 4, 2007, 12:51 AM
We interned japanese during WW-2 while at war with their people ,why not round up these folks and lock them down in camps.
Because it was wrong then, and it's wrong now. Innocent until proven guilty, and all that pesky jazz.

Lets not forget that that mall shooter in Colorado was a muslim from bosnia.And Teddy Kosinski and Eric Randolf and Timmy McVeigh weren't. Bad People are, well, Bad People regardless of their religious affiliation.

Hey titan 6 if these dunecoons got a problem with the concentration camps they can always return to their country of origin.OK - this just flagged you as a troll. Pure, simple, utter craptastic troll.

Titan6
March 4, 2007, 12:52 AM
Ignorance like that is truly impresive.

Oleg Volk
March 4, 2007, 12:52 AM
Just fired for effect.

Autolycus
March 4, 2007, 01:20 AM
The sad truth is that all one person has to do is use the search function on here or a few other forums. Try searching the word Muslim and see what comes up. I am sure you find a lot of people who post nicely in this thread but when it comes down to it they really have a negative perception of Muslims and see Middle Easterners as Muslims.

This image of gunowners being racist and bigoted folks is only perpetuated by this fact. When gun owners suggest profiling Middle Easterners at the airport it hurts us because it seems that gun owners suggest oppressing a minority is ok. When gun owners start implying that the entire Muslim religion is hellbent on the destruction of Western culture and that if you disagree you are blind, we have lost.

I have posted and banged heads with a few posters on this issue.

It is the same thing when gun owners start talking about shooting all the illegal immigrants. We come off as a blood thirsty kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out type. How long until we turn that attitude towards other minoritys or people?

I have posted on another forum where there is a lot less high road attitudes towards Muslims and Islam in general. I have grown tired of it and really am disgusted by so many people persecuting Muslims for the actions of a few. Only 13 years ago it was gunowners and the rightwing being persecuted because of the actions of the OKC bomber.

All one has to do is read some of the closed threads...

http://www.thehighroad.org/search.php?searchid=2095158

Check out the one about the shooter in SLC. People want to restrict Muslims from entering the country because they are Muslim.

Another one is on page 2 entitled "What Jefferson learned from the Quoran."

I have seen that one on numerous gun boards and a lot of people agreeing with its sentiments. This is why I am so disgusted with the gun culture in our country. When someone in the gun culture supports racist and bigoted rhetoric we all suffer. We then isolate people from our culture. People who dont want to associate with bigots and racists see this as a large part of the gun culture because of the actions of a few.

So just watch what you say and do not be so quick to judge Muslims and Middle Easterners in general.

Titan6
March 4, 2007, 01:50 AM
Well for the record I would be more than happy to give firearms training, training in automatic weapons, anti tank weapons, high explosives, small unit tactics, military protocols and security to almost any muslim in the country legally.

Now I need 'em to speak Arabic well though not just enough for prayer. The military is hiring and paying quite well. They will even get an all expense paid trip to the middle East.

Any takers?

Mark Whiteman
March 4, 2007, 02:27 AM
I've had most of the Iranians I've met at first indicate they were from Persia. Its like they're aware of the welcome they'd get otherwise. One was a bank teller, and the rest were medical personnel in the hospital where I spent some time. I've got no problem with sharing my interests with anyone from anywhere, as long as they are here legally and they are interested. All those I've had the pleasure to meet were very happy to be here and being Americans, but all expressed a desire that their homeland would come to its senses so they could go back and share their skills without risk of death, etc.

Danus ex
March 4, 2007, 02:31 AM
I have seen that one on numerous gun boards and a lot of people agreeing with its sentiments. This is why I am so disgusted with the gun culture in our country. When someone in the gun culture supports racist and bigoted rhetoric we all suffer.

Similarly, think for a bit before you generalize "gun culture". Now, now, I don't mean to pick on you Tecumseh, but I think you do a superb job of illustrating your own point: people regularly overreact and say things they don't truly mean. Often (but not in Tecumseh's case), these statements are born from ignorance.

Think of it this way: few anti-gunners have ever fired a gun. Their anti-gun sentiment (as well as their hyperbole) is reasoned from what they don't know and what they do fear. Likewise, few in the anti-Middle Eastern crowd have ever really known a Middle Easterner. Why do said people fear Middle Easterners? Simple. Our media culture added Middle Easterners (and Islam) to the ever-popular List of Things Americans Should Fear Irrationally. Other past notorious American bogeymen include: the Japanese, CFCs, drugs, the KKK, blacks, fat, alcohol, Native Americans, the theory of evolution, communism, carbohydrates, global warming, global cooling, witches, and (!) guns.

Most people are good folks once you overcome their initial idiocy. It's OK to be judgemental--that's how our minds work. So, use that ability to judge, and evaluate people individually, for who they are.

Oleg Volk
March 4, 2007, 02:37 AM
Persia to Iran as Russia to the USSR

Delta608
March 4, 2007, 10:32 AM
Muslims do not belong in America much less are they deserving of firearms training\ownership.
We interned japanese during WW-2 while at war with their people ,why not round up these folks and lock them down in camps.
Lets not forget that that mall shooter in Colorado was a muslim from bosnia.

:what: :what: :what: :what: :what:


That my friend is a very scary thought...I hope it was tongue in cheek

kb2iaw
March 4, 2007, 04:18 PM
The flight instructoirs didnt think much about teaching the middle eastern men about flying lessons...untill september the eleventh 2001 ,
the reservations came after it was to late ???

Baba Louie
March 4, 2007, 05:41 PM
I'd say most perceptions by US citizens who actually KNOW middle eastern immigrants, that is, real honest to goodness people, will like or dislike them, not for their origin, but for THEIR perception of this country.

I went to college w/ some Iranians who preferred to be called Persians. This was back in the middle 70's when SAVAK (the Shah's secret police) was actually gathering information on students here (well, in Manhattan KS at the time) who protested against the Shah and brought real and painful grief to their families back home. (My, how the tide turneth from one extreme to another)

I've worked w/ Saudis, Iranians and Iraqis, who were engineers here in LV, all but one had embraced the American dream as their own. Each had privately denounced a few key things back in their native lands, be it mullahs in power, dictators in power or the monarchy in power and they all knew that their wives, not to mention their daughters, would have a hard time dealing with the day to day reality should they ever be forced back to the land of their parents. Note, each were married men as opposed to younger zealous bachelor types, and each had privately expressed dissension of certain national policies but didn't want their words of woe openly expressed... that whole "family back home" thing. Only one stood out as a person not worthy of befriending (to my way of thinking) as he perpetually badmouthed Jews and all things Israeli. (Kinda like those who badmouth all things Muslim/Arab, etc). I've also worked with Israelis, Eastern Indians and Chinese engineers and have taken a few of them out shooting as well. By far and away, the Israelis kicked major azz w/ the AR platform. I wonder why?

And they ALL loved the shooting sports, even a couple of the wives. Ever see an former Iranian soldier's eyes light up when he sees your Persian Mauser? "A BRNO! Just like my fathers."

So heck yes, take them shooting if they want to learn. Puts a smile on their face when they do well. Some of these guys and gals actually KNOW what governmental repression is like.

We all know that freedom and liberty does not equate to safety; only armed vigilence can keep evil at bay.

Titan6
March 4, 2007, 06:05 PM
Got to agree with you there. I won't teach anyone to shoot who is intolerant of other religions. A bigot. A racist. A stranger. Hateful towards my country. (Accept for the ones the military tells me to teach)

But on my own time, nope.

That does rule out a lot of Middle Eastern immigrants I have met but by no means all. It also rules out a lot of other people I have met that grew up right here in Texas and all other parts of the country and world I have been to. They may have the right to learn these skills and have the rights to their opinions but I have the right to mine as well.

rudolf
March 4, 2007, 06:34 PM
Before you teach shooting, consider how the flight teachers now must feel who taught sone friendly muslim students how to fly.

Oleg Volk
March 4, 2007, 06:59 PM
The entire family showed up. The lady is cross-eye dominant, so we did mostly pistol. The man was very good with rifle. The six-year old boy had fun with a variety of 22s. The seventeen year old daughter had a great deal of fun with everything from a .22 to an M16. G3 and shotguns and was quite a good shot. I let them keep the muffs and safety glasses because they'll obviously be back to do more of this. The welcome they got from everyone was very encouraging.

HerrWolfe
March 4, 2007, 08:53 PM
I would have no concerns other than to realize that some may have concerns. Case in point....thought Oleg was F, but read post above that gender was M. Does not change a thing....really don't care. Have very good friend who is Muslim, but I am now more aware that their scripture is different than mine, regardless of what the professors said during the ceromonies post 9-11. Thus I act accordingly. Blast, did I just contradict myself? Guess it might make a difference.....[certain] religions, that is! Can not think about it too long....makes my head hurt.

TallPine
March 4, 2007, 09:05 PM
Gee whiz ... lots of Middle Eastern doctors in the USA, especially in small towns.

I would think that a doc (if he wanted to) could do far more harm with a needle and a Rx pad than a few hotshots with guns :rolleyes:

Bruce H
March 4, 2007, 09:25 PM
Profiling is a great tool. Captain Clay is absolute proof of that.

MikeG
March 4, 2007, 10:34 PM
Not all Middle Eastern people are here to do us harm. Many are refugees from the same totalitarian governments and groups that we mistrust. Christians in Lebanon and Baha'is in Iran have all faced terrible persecution where they came from - why should we do it too?

Our problem is with a small percentage of fanatics - let's identify them and deal with them.

cold dead hands
March 4, 2007, 11:11 PM
no one talks about this problem. i grew up in a black suburb of denver, co. my friends are black and i am white. did their having firearms scare me? no! was i scared of being mugged or murdered? no!!! wanna know why? they were honest just like me. they felt a need to protect family and property (in the end your loved one's lives are the only posessions you care about). did they suddenly fear a white guy with gun when i and my other white friends were of legal age. NO! this country has gone insane in terms of making skin color a criminal act. when do the rest of you step up and speak for the innocent!?!

Autolycus
March 4, 2007, 11:43 PM
My earlier post on the gun culture has only been my observations. Unlike many who post they just post their stereotypes as fact. That is the main difference.

Brian Dale
March 5, 2007, 10:15 AM
Tecumseh, you wrote above thatWhen someone in the gun culture supports racist and bigoted rhetoric we all suffer. We then isolate people from our culture. People who don't want to associate with bigots and racists see this as a large part of the gun culture because of the actions of a few.
I agree that there are people who believe that the gun culture is this way. However, in the gun culture that I belong to, and you, and most folks here that I've read, it's the bigots and racists whom we isolate from the culture.

Glad I could clear that up.

captain clay, in case that Oleg's "fire for effect" meant something short of banning, welcome to my Ignore List. You're only the fourth person on it.

PILMAN
March 5, 2007, 10:25 AM
I could care less what race or religion they are as long as they are willing to show proper gun safety. On the other hand if it were an extremeist muslim talking about Jihad or something then I might be a little concerned. I have plenty of friends who are muslim who live a rather secular lifestyle however and being that I can trust them as friends, I could definitely trust them with a firearm, and i'm Jewish.

doubleg
March 5, 2007, 10:30 AM
In my opinion racism is below stupidity. All they wan't is people to help them out. It's hard enough to move to a different country and then have to deal that crap.:barf:

buzz_knox
March 5, 2007, 10:33 AM
The way I see it, a real terrorist would try to remain as low-key as possible.

Not necessarily. The 9/11 hijackers were fairly open in their desire to learn how to fly but not how to land.

As with anything, situations have to be judged on their individual merits. A person who wants to learn how to shoot defensively is probably on the up and up, regardless of race, color, creed, etc. A person who inquires as to which weapon would allow for the most damage to the most people in the least time should raise the hackles on one's neck, regardless of race, color, creed, etc.

After all, they could be working for Bloomberg.

spartan20
March 5, 2007, 12:34 PM
Im taking a friend to his first gun show, and hes black, have kind of been wondering if thats going to be a problem there.
I honestly cant remember seing a black person at any of the shows Ive been to, plus down here you get alot of the "good ole boys" wearing their mossy oak coveralls and such.
Hopefully Im just being paranoid.

doubleg
March 5, 2007, 12:47 PM
As long as he doesn't show up wearing a fitted hat and Rocca Wear he'll not have to worry about that.

roo_ster
March 5, 2007, 01:11 PM
If they are American citizens, tell them not to worry and get busy learning a skill befitting free men & women. The likelihood that anybody will say anything inappropriate is small. The liklihood that anybody will do anything inappropriate is even smaller. We can't control what folks think, but who cares, as long as they live & let live?

Until bombs start blowing up in the streets in the USA, I think Americans will be quite tolerant of anyone of Middle Eastern descent. You start having bombs blow up with any frequency such as is happening in Iraq these days geared toward killing civilians, all bets are off. I hope this situation does not develop in the US. I like peace and I like to feel safe. Middle Easterners here should try to ensure that this does not happen. I want them to feel safe too. They have this power if they are willing to exercise it.
22rf has it right. It would take some pretty serious incidents in the USA to change America from a place terrifically accomodating to legal immigrants to something else.

It has been my experience that America is quite accomodating to legal immigrants. From dorm-room comradery inciting the recent immigrant from wherever to participate in, ah, sophomoric group behavior...to friends & co-workers egging on the permanent legal resident alien to get her citizenship. This seems to be the rule for most of America. The execption seems to be tightly-knit "ethnic" enclaves. They seem mildly hostile to any not of their kind.

An hilarious example of America's accomodation and tolerance for the outlandish is the movie Borat. I about busted my gut at the arranged dinner with the southron upper crust. Despite planned outrages on the part of the main character, the hostess bends over backwards to make him feel comfortable and explain some bits of American technology, custom, and hygiene. The whole movie was an advertisement for the tolerance americans show the newcomer who doesn't fit in, but is (allegedly) trying to figure us out and how to act in the USA.

If there did develop a domestic terror campaign from muslim immigrants & their communities, the happy, helpful, & tolerant America they find, today, would be less so. This is reasonable and understandable, as American accomodation is not a suicide pact.

Also, were such a campaign to materialize, of course, the muslim communities would be best equipped to have knowledge of the attacks and the perpetrators. As Mao wrote, the guerilla swims in the sea of the population. It is the same way down through history up to & including Iraq. If the muslim communities provide no aid to and finger the bad eggs in their midst, the peans writen toward muslim assimilation and Americanization could wallpaper Grand Central Station. OTOH, if the muslim community aids and coddles the perpetrators, the reaction form the rest of America would not be as positive.

Autolycus
March 5, 2007, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by Doubleg:
As long as he doesn't show up wearing a fitted hat and Rocca Wear he'll not have to worry about that.

Why does their attire matter?

Autolycus
March 5, 2007, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by Jfruser:
The execption seems to be tightly-knit "ethnic" enclaves. They seem mildly hostile to any not of their kind.

Actually the ethnic enclaves were formed because of hostility towards immigrants. They were also some of the only places where non-English speakers could find people who speak their language. Common food items particular to the culture could also be found here as well.

A good example being the Chinese in the west. When they were mistreated and abused by the predominantly white majority they retreated to their ethnic enclave so that they would be free from prejudice and attacks from the majority group.

Titan6
March 5, 2007, 02:45 PM
I think what I find amusing about this is that in nearly every Muslim country there is no such thing as a bill of rights.

You can forget freedom of religion, speech, protections from search and seizure, the whole deal; it does not exist in these countries. Crimes such as adultry and homosexuality are sometimes met with the prison or the death sentence.

Most of the Muslims I have met in this country are a part of the repressive ruling class either as military or students here getting an education. I have only run across a very few that are immigrants that were fleeing an oppresive regime. Travel to the US is very expensive and difficult and therefore normally only those in power can afford it. The lucky few that are trying to escape and actually make are indeed few.

To fruther complicate matters we have the Nation of Islam in the US with various splinter groups which was founded more as a hate based group and which founding had little if anything to do with true Islam. They help give Islam bad name in their actions in the US and confuse a lot of people with their title.

What we are supposed to adhere to (and today US courts support) in the US is all men are equal. Religion is not supposed to matter but we all know for most religious groups it does. The Koran makes it much worse so. It spells out in no uncertain terms that you are supposed to treat different religious groups (and non-believers in any G-d) differently in every part of your life and has discrimination built right into the belief system. There is even a hierarchy in place. (I sometimes amuse myself by showing people where it says that Muslims are supposed to prefer Jews over Chrisitans. This is good for some wide eyed stares...). Many of the strict sects proclaim that for a Muslim to be true to his faith he must discriminate. While I support and defend their right to believe as they wish I don't have to help anyone with this either.

I have strong convictions also namely that all men (and women) are created equal and this frequently puts me at odds with nearly every middle eastern Muslim immigrant that I come across. I don't really wish to help train any person with firearms that sees me as an inferior human. Occasionally I run across a few that have gotten around this in some way. But it is a rarity in my experience.

Oleg Volk
March 5, 2007, 02:54 PM
I can only speak about the four we introduced to guns yesterday. I like having them as neighbors and fellow countrymen. The whole family is very gracious and quite enthusiastic about RKBA. Seeing the 6yo start with a Cricket and go up to a .22 AR upper, the 17yo start with a suppressed .22 bolt rifle and go up to PTR91 and pump shotgun, their traditionally dressed warming up a suppressed P22 next to them and their father trading between an M16 and a camcorder was very gratifying.

Vaarok
March 5, 2007, 03:26 PM
Guns mean a person is capable of being self-reliant and self-determining. Gun people are the group that should best know how reprehensible it is to deny someone their rights on a suppose.

And don't get me started on Team Infidel and similar asinine bigotry. It gives us a bad reputation by association, alienates potential allies, and is just objectionable on principle.

Hooray for responsible people with guns, regardless of creed or color. An armed society is a polite society.

roo_ster
March 5, 2007, 04:05 PM
The execption seems to be tightly-knit "ethnic" enclaves. They seem mildly hostile to any not of their kind.
Actually the ethnic enclaves were formed because of hostility towards immigrants. They were also some of the only places where non-English speakers could find people who speak their language. Common food items particular to the culture could also be found here as well.

A good example being the Chinese in the west. When they were mistreated and abused by the predominantly white majority they retreated to their ethnic enclave so that they would be free from prejudice and attacks from the majority group.
Whatever the reason, today such enclaves are the locus of unwlecome to recent immigrants not of their kind. Also, such enclaves (& their denizens) are less sensitive to contemporary standards of dialog WRT new immigrants and other native ethnic groups.

It is interesting to see, say, a Hindu immigrant American and an inner-city black American interact in a confrontational situation. "Un-PC" does not even begin to describe it.

Autolycus
March 5, 2007, 10:16 PM
Is it any better when a rural white american interacts with a middle eastern immigrant? Or a rural white american interacts with a person of hispanic descent?

"Un-PC" does not even begin to describe it. :uhoh:

MD_Willington
March 6, 2007, 01:20 AM
I have a friend from Persia who was concerned that people find out about her learning to shoot and consider her a terrorist. Today, a person I invited to the range asked if I could get in trouble for teaching a Muslim man to shoot guns.

Seems to me that we should be aware of this concern when talking to those we invite to come shooting with us. Not everyone would voice it directly.


I work with a Persian, a muslim, he's very knowledgeable of the MP5 and G3, conscription will do this for you.

Also the Chinese engineers I work with can utilize an AKM just as well as my Ethiopian co-worker that can operate pretty much any Soviet small arms & command a T55.


Where I work, the people that have had the birth-right "to keep and bare arms" are more apathetic to that right than any foreigner I work with...

I invite any and all law abiding people to shoot I see no problem in that.

Also not everyone hates the USA, a neighbor from Afhganistan, a muslim, says he and his family are sick of all the secular BS, and that the zealots can keep Afghanistan as he does not wish to ever return.

The new bogey-man is "The Terrorist" so many people will identify the stereo type and be afraid, I say you are doing nothing wrong and do not be afraid.

{/ Sound like I'm ranting, rant off

Oleg Volk
March 6, 2007, 01:53 PM
No wonder the daughter did so well: she has a 3rd level black belt in Tae Kwon Do. Martial arts background helps a lot. The entire family will be back to the range with us, and they plan to bring friends. They've been in the US longer than I have, and live a nice blend of their own culture and assimilated lifestyle. I showed this thread to my co-worker and also recommended http://corneredcat.com to him and his wife.

So, how was your weekend?

lance22
March 6, 2007, 02:02 PM
A young adult comes here from Morocco to be educated. His professors are all anti-gun and would faint if they thought anyone had a pocket knife. Hetero couples fight against marriage but gay couples demand it. His pasty-white-white roomate is vegetarian and writes 10 angry emails each day to KFC. Everyone he meets is a whining, sobbing pussy.

After graduating, he returns to Morocco with a report. American women are tough and dominant, American men are blubbering weaklings. Nobody is willing to fight for anything and "principle" has been replaced by "compromise". The word "Victim" means the same thing that "Saint" meant 100 years ago.

In his six years on American soil he never meets a single person from the military and so he has no experience with Americans who believe that freedom is a product of sacrifice; instead he is inudated with weak PC college professors who teach that freedom is an entitlement GIVEN to you by the goverment.

A pity that so many foreigners have their only "American" experience while living at University campus's.

Titan6
March 6, 2007, 02:58 PM
I find it amazing that he went to college in America and met no one there on the GI Bill. Was it an expensive or very liberal school? GIs don't normally abide a bunch of BS in their education and can't afford real expensive schools as the GI Bill only pays for up to about $70,000 of college. I went to college where about 2% of the population was there on the GI Bill. Some schools it is as high as 10% or more.

Still if he spent that many years in this country and never met anyone other than weak PC professors and wimpy college students it dosen't seem like he was trying very hard.

MD_Willington
March 7, 2007, 02:05 PM
I purchased my latest pistol from a female at the local university, she and her fiancée were both avid shooters until the local range was closed.

My child went through a temperament lab at the university, the females working in the AV room, were either shooters or interested in shooting and had gone shooting with friends...

A lot of the males I've met there have no interest. The last time there was a rapist on campus, many females voiced their opinion on being armed and purchasing a pistol for self defence, the Police chief (male) said that the rapist would take the pistol and use it on the females...

Autolycus
March 8, 2007, 04:58 AM
Still waiting for DoubleG to explain his Roca wear comment.

Imaginos
March 8, 2007, 10:49 AM
Seems I read a news article on FoxNews.com about a Saudi woman who had been gang raped by 7 men and now faces 90 lashes for being alone with a man she is not related to.

I also listened to the Glen Beck show on talk radio when he had several muslim women on who were talking about the danger they were in for speaking out against radical islam.

Seems to me the way to win this war is to win the hearts and minds of muslim women. If teaching them self-defense is the way to make that conncetion, then let's all take somebody to the range.

kb2iaw
March 8, 2007, 11:14 AM
It`s not so important how they dress or how they look, or even if they speak with an accent
(but what they think /belive ) and you can never get into their minds to know what they say is true...but that goes for anybody ...

doubleg
March 8, 2007, 11:24 AM
Show up at a gun show dressed like cam'ron and see how many evil stares your get.

TSH77769
March 8, 2007, 06:40 PM
Oleg, I would not worry about it in the sligtest. I know a man who was born and raised in Lebanon. His family fled persecution there and came to the US because they were Christians. He is one of the most hardcore pro-gun, pro-American, Americans I have ever met.

I think that taking someone who happens to be middle eastern shooting would tend to make them more American and more pro-freedom, so don;t worry about it.

Tsh77769

MisterPX
March 8, 2007, 06:56 PM
Can't speak on the skin color thing, as that can't be helped. As someone with less than pale skin myself, I've gotten a few stares over the years, but a smile and a wink seem to take care of those. My issue with the riginal statement is the MUslim part. Can you identify a Muslim just by looking at one? I doubt it, unless they're wearing tradition attire.

entropy
March 8, 2007, 08:32 PM
There was a time, Oleg, when many would have had the same concerns about teaching a black man, an eastern european, an asian, or a Jew to shoot.


I grew up during the Cold War, Red Dawn and Rambo were the movies of chioice, yet I go shooting with a Russian several times a year. :)
[Bugs Bunny voice] Oh, the Irony![/Bugs Bunny voice]

Titan6
March 9, 2007, 12:30 AM
I know what you mean. I had lunch with a Russian guy today. We talked a little about how in 1985 nuclear war with Russia was a virtual certainty. He is interested in joining the US military and saw me in the uniform and wanted to ask me what it is like.

If someone had told me in 1985 that I would be having lunch with a Russian man who was trying hard to get a green card so he could join the US military in 2007 I would have asked what they were smoking. And yet there we were. Things like that renew my hope in the world.

entropy
March 9, 2007, 09:51 AM
When I was in the Army in '87, there was a Russian guy in another unit near mine on post. He had a Master's degree of some sort, can't remember what. He was an enlisted man, couldn't become an officer because he wasn't a US citizen. My unit had people of many nationalites, but I was surprised to meet a Russian in the US Army.

PS, we shoot Russian weapons when we go shooting, White Horseradish and I. :)

rangerruck
March 9, 2007, 10:14 AM
apparently, an american is not allowed to have the following term used by us and for us," when in Rome..." . Apparently ,not only does this not get to be used or applied by us, but non conforming immigrants get to use it here ,by themselves , for themsleves, in our country, to use against us.

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