[Drizzt]

Pitting Gospel Against 12-Gauge In Hyattsville

By Marc Fisher
Sunday, June 8, 2003; Page C01


The Mossberg Model 500 shotgun, which retails for north of $300, has proved to be quite a draw for the Catholic Sportsmen's Organization. Each year on the Saturday before Father's Day, members of St. Jerome's Catholic Church in Hyattsville join with others from around town for lunch, fellowship, shooting contests and a gun raffle.

The idea is to raise money for kids in Hyattsville who need good sports activities to keep them off the streets and out of gangs.

The raffle has drawn bigger crowds and collected more money -- $30,000 in three years -- than your average church fundraiser.

But some Catholics in Hyattsville believe that guns and God do not belong in the same building, nor in the same collection basket.

That's why the people of St. Jerome's parish have been divided for four years. It's why Peggy and Pat Alexander and several others have left the church. It's why the Alexanders are not on speaking terms with their neighbor across the street, John Aquilino, who came up with the gun raffle. And it's why even the cardinal has sought to draw lines between the need for money and the demands of faith.

"It's pretty painful," says Peggy Alexander, who now worships over at the Episcopal church. "To be 52 and a lifelong Catholic and to feel so betrayed by the church that you've grown up in -- it's hard."

Aquilino sees no spiritual issue here. He knows that Cardinal Theodore McCarrick, archbishop of Washington, favors gun control, but Aquilino sees that as the position of a member of the church hierarchy, not of the faith itself.

Aquilino set out to do something about the tattered uniforms of Catholic Youth Organization sports teams. An ordinary raffle might raise $100. But Hyattsville is not far from the Prince George's County Trap and Skeet Center, where gun enthusiasts practice and take lessons. A fundraiser there, with a gun giveaway, might get the kids the support they need.

Aquilino is also a gun activist, prominent in groups that campaign for gun rights. But he says he sought only to help the neighborhood children.

"We just want to raise money and have fun," he says. "My 77-year-old mother shot a shotgun at our event last year for the first time in her life, and she loved it. This is for people who enjoy firearms. I get a kick out of them. They're very calming."

Aquilino knew that some parishioners were appalled by the use of guns to raise money for church activities. In 2001, 14 members of St. Jerome's asked the cardinal to intercede because the church accepted money raised at the skeet shoot, which their pastor, the Rev. James Stack, had said "was neither illegal nor immoral."

Stack had told Aquilino's group that it couldn't use St. Jerome's name in connection with the gun raffle. So Aquilino and friends created the independent Catholic Sportsmen's Organization, which donated money from the gun event to parish activities.

"In this urban area, it is not appropriate for church-sponsored groups to be giving away guns," the letter to the cardinal said.

The cardinal decided that the sportsmen's group could raise money for St. Jerome's only if the events are not "related in any way to the use or sale of guns."

But that didn't settle the issue. Even if formal ties between the sportsmen's group and St. Jerome's were cut, gun opponents say the link remains strong. Sportsmen's group members wear T-shirts with gun images to church events. And St. Jerome's activities still accept money from the sportsmen, who say they only give the church funds raised from non-gun events.

How the church separates itself from the gun group hardly matters. What divides St. Jerome's is the larger issue -- whether those who believe in the church's rejection of the gun culture can coexist with those who say they can be good Catholics and still enjoy guns.

"We're not looking for a fight with the church," Aquilino says. "But this smacks of the same sort of intolerance and prejudice that racism is built from."

No, says Alexander, "it's a moral issue. It's about putting more guns out on the street. It's against the life-affirming doctrine that the Catholic Church preaches."

And so now, in Hyattsville, because some people cannot get beyond their fascination with guns and some people actually believe the words of their faith's commandments, Sunday is a day for staring across a deep divide.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A30170-2003Jun7.html

[Geech]

What an idiot. The Catholic Church does and always has supported the right of self-defense. Don't abuse my religion to push your political dogma, sheeple.

[sm]

A "church" consists of people, not the sign on the door , or head honcho/office somewhere.

I say if bingo won't bring in the $ and flock, use shotguns...firearms. Sometimes one has to break the rules. Its between an individual and one's conception of power greater than themselves--hey one doesn't believe in that, thats cool, their perogative.


Preacherman...??

[Deadman]

I don't seem to recall any anti-gun biblical references...

[dinosaur]

So at least one couple left the Catholic Church and now are Episcopalians? They had an issue with some congregants and used this to renounce their religion? Sounds like the Episcopal Church got the sharp end of the stick. I guess their new religion doesn`t subscribe to "Love Thy Neighbor". :rolleyes:

[Hal]

The Savior of Isola - Saint Gabriel Possenti

- look him up.

The Alexanders are idiots. Useful idiots, but idiots nonetheless.

Skeet shooters take note:
No, says Alexander, "it's a moral issue. *It's about putting more guns out on the street. It's against the life-affirming doctrine that the Catholic Church preaches."

*Emphasis mine

Sportsmen and skeet shooters take note..welcome to the club..now YOUR duck and deer guns are *out in the streets*.

[NukemJim]

Luke 22:36

NukemJim

[hammer4nc]

Both sides in this article provided several juicy sound bites that heightened the sense of conflict. Still, the reporter could not resist adding his own strong anti-gun stamp to close the story:
...because some people cannot get beyond their fascination with guns and some people actually believe the words of their faith's commandments...
I guess the message is "skeet shooting violates the commandment 'Thou shalt not kill'??? Wow! Has Jayson Blair changed his name, and been hired by the Post?

The reporter more accurately could have been written:
because some people would abandon their faith over their paranoid fear of guns, and some people actually believe in supporting their congregation...
Better yet, this reporter could have just done his job, and left the hoplophobic rhetoric to the VPC.

[Preacherman]

Idiots. The Catholic Church does NOT take any position against firearms - in fact, at the UN Conference in 2001 on the proliferation of small arms, the Church stated unequivocally that the legitimate need for self-defence is itself sufficient to justify private ownership of firearms (never mind hunting or anything like that). As a pastor, I've held gun raffles a couple of times a year for the past six years to raise money for my church - and my Bishop has never objected (probably because seven-eighths of his flock in this part of Louisiana own multiple firearms! :D )

[Leatherneck]

People, people: this is The Washington Post reporting on anti-gun sentiment in a Washington suburb in Maryland OK?

What else would you expect? :rolleyes:

TC
TFL Survivor

[Alan Fud]

Part 3, Section II, Chapter 2, Article V, Paragraphs 2264-2265 of the "Official Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church" ... "Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow, since one is bound to take more care of one's own life than of another's. Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for someone responsible for another's life, the common good of the family or of the community."

[Gordon]

Never mind the sporting and recreational uses, or just plain collecting the artistry of wood and metal(Mossberg 500's aside!):D

[HunterGatherer]

The St. Gabriel Possenti Society promotes the public recognition of St. Gabriel Possenti, including his Vatican designation as Patron Saint of Handgunners.

St. Gabriel Possenti was a Catholic seminarian whose marksmanship and proficiency with handguns single-handedly saved the village of Isola, Italy from a band of 20 terrorists in 1860.

The Possenti Society offers a variety of materials related to St. Gabriel Possenti and a biblical understanding of self-defense.

The Savior of Isola

In 1860, a band of soldiers from the army of Garibaldi entered the mountain village of Isola, Italy. They began to burn and pillage the town, terrorizing it's inhabitants.

Possenti, with his seminary rector's permission, walked into the center of town, unarmed, to face the terrorists. One of the soldiers was dragging off a young woman he intended to rape when he saw Possenti and made a snickering remark about such a young monk being all alone.

Possenti quickly grabbed the soldier's revolver from his belt and ordered the marauder to release the woman. The startled soldier complied, as Possenti grabbed the revolver of another soldier who came by. Hearing the commotion, the rest of the soldiers came running in Possenti's direction, determined to overcome the rebellious monk.

At that moment a small lizard ran across the road between Possenti and the soldiers. When the lizard briefly paused, Possenti took careful aim and struck the lizard with one shot. Turning his two handguns on the approaching soldiers, Possenti commanded them to drop their weapons. Having seen his handiwork with a pistol, the soldiers complied. Possenti ordered them to put out the fires they had set, and upon finishing, marched the whole lot out of town, ordering them never to return. The grateful townspeople escorted Possenti in triumphant procession back to the seminary, thereafter referring to him as "the Savior of Isola".


© 2003 St. Gabriel Possenti Society, Inc., P.O. Box 2844, Arlington VA 22202 USA

[Alan Fud]

at the UN Conference in 2001 on the proliferation of small arms, the Church stated unequivocally that the legitimate need for self-defence is itself sufficient to justify private ownership of firearms (never mind hunting or anything like that) Do you gave a reference link for this? Not doubting you but when I quoted that statement to an anti, they demanded proof.

[geekWithA.45]

As I recall, defense of your own life is more than a right. If is a DUTY.

[geekWithA.45]

Hey, Preacherman...you got a citation on the Catholic church's statement to IANSA?

[Bartholomew Roberts]

"In this urban area, it is not appropriate for church-sponsored groups to be giving away guns," the letter to the cardinal said.

How is the type of area relevant to whether or not this is appropriate? If this is appropriate in a rural area, what is it about an urban area that makes it inappropriate?

[Alan Fud]

As I recall, defense of your own life is more than a right. If is a DUTY.Not only is it a duty, but the CCC calls it a GRAVE duty!

However, the USCCB has statements against gun ownership. I'm trying to argue this on two point: That the USCCB's postion is not consistent with the official position of the Catholic Church and a reference link to the Catholic church's statement to IANSA would certainly prove that point.


How can someone have a GRAVE duty to do something and then be denied the means by which to do it?

[Hawkmoon]

What an idiot. The Catholic Church does and always has supported the right of self-defense. Don't abuse my religion to push your political dogma, sheeple.
Correct. The previous Pope issued a statement, ex cathedra if memory serves, saying that the right and obligation to defend your life is a person's highest moral obligation ... even when the act of defending your life results in the loss of an assailant's life.

[Alan Fud]

Correct. The previous Pope issued a statement, ex cathedra if memory serves, saying that the right and obligation to defend your life is a person's highest moral obligation ... even when the act of defending your life results in the loss of an assailant's life. Yeah but the USCCB has issued statements against firearms and the anti's are now claiming that the Pope's statements therefore do not apply to guns. A reference link to the Catholic church's statement to IANSA would help disprove the anti's claim.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Here is the Vatican statement on the UN Small Arms Conference (http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/documents/rc_seg-st_doc_20010711_trade-arms_en.html) from the Vatican website:

Mr. President,

Since there is a close relationship between weapons and violence, weapons and destruction, weapons and hatred coupled with social disintegration, arms cannot be treated simply like commercial goods. This troubling statement alone serves to guide the work of the present International Conference on Illicit Trade in Small Arms and Light Weapons in all its Aspects, at which I have the honour to represent the Holy See.

It is clear from the outset that the ethical, social and humanitarian importance of the topic under discussion cannot be separated from, but, in fact, must serve as the framework for any consideration of the supply and demand of small arms and light weapons for security, political and economic reasons.

For certain types of weapons, such as anti-personnel mines, it has been possible to devise a Convention that prohibits their use, stockpiling, production and transfer; and for other types of weapons, such as certain conventional ones which may be deemed to be excessively injurious or to have indiscriminate effects, there exists a UN Convention prohibiting or restricting their use. Nevertheless, it is well known that small arms and light weapons are the primary weapons used in conflicts of every kind throughout the world.

Unfortunately, however, it is impossible to ban all kinds of small arms and light weapons. "In a world marked by evil ... the right of legitimate defence by means of arms exists. This right can become a serious duty for those who are responsible for the lives of others, for the common good of the family or of the civil community. This right alone can justify the possession or transfer of arms". (Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace, "The International Arms Trade: an Ethical Reflection" in Origins 8 (24), 7 July 1994, p. 144).

This is not an absolute right, since there are specific conditions placed on the licitness of the production, possession and acquisition of arms. Nonetheless, in our meeting today the topic is fairly limited. Here we are discussing illicit trade in small arms and light weapons. This is, in a manner of speaking, a negative statement of the fundamental question of the legitimacy of the international arms trade.

The present Conference puts on the table various concrete measures intended to address the problem of the above-mentioned illicit trade, as well as to avoid diverting small arms and light weapons into the illegal market. Of particular significance are the mechanisms for prevention, reduction, accountability and control, such as the creation of systems of marking, tracing, and record-keeping; the defining of criteria for the export of arms or for determining when there is effectively a surplus; the regulation of brokering activity; the inclusion of mechanisms for collecting and destroying arms in peace processes; the establishment of adequate standards for the management and security of the stocks of these weapons; and, taking into account the issue of demand of illicit traffic of small arms and light weapons, the implementation of educational and awareness activities aimed at promoting a culture of peace and life, through, among other things, the involvement of different protagonists in the civil society.

The Holy See applauds this political desire and offers its full support and cooperation, and it hopes that concrete results will be reached as quickly as possible.

Without a doubt, in this initial phase we are on the threshold of a new and, perhaps, long process in the area of arms control. The present International Conference is an essential step, offering as it does an important opportunity to broaden the scope of both the international debate and public awareness in order to mobilize a political will and to establish and strengthen norms and measures aimed at preventing and combating this phenomenon.

While on other fronts the process of disarmament seems to be taking its time, if not even treading down backward paths, this new approach aimed at illicit trade in small arms and light weapons stands out as a sign of hope. This process presents us once more with a fundamental step to take, one which consists in a precise and decisive change in international relations, which must be based not on the rule of the strongest and of those who are best prepared militarily, but on the force of law and according to standards and instruments capable of guaranteeing security independently of recourse to violence.

This means that actions must be based on the complex social and economic conditions that are at the root of the supply and demand of these arms, and must promote a true culture of peace and life. Such an approach is also directed against the culture of violence fed by, among other things, the illicit trade of small arms and light weapons, which sometimes could be wrongly recognised as one of the more effective instruments to solve the conflicts of daily life.

The ultimate goal uniting us in this area is the protection of the life and dignity of each and every human person. For this reason, it seems appropriate to ensure, even in this process, the centrality of the human person, and therefore to emphasize the importance of considering the human dimension in facing the problem of illicit trade in arms. It is well known that civil populations suffer the most tragic consequences from the use of light weapons and small arms; the majority of the victims of these arms are civilians, most of which are women and children.

Children in particular suffer a twofold evil effect, since on the one hand they are passively exposed to the dangers of these arms and on the other they play an active part in conflicts when they are forced into the reprehensible role of child-soldiers. My delegation deems it also important to emphasize here how such situations demand strong action on the part of the international community, which must show particular concern for children affected by conflict situations in various regions of the world, and must work to reunite them with their families and reintegrate them into society by appropriate means of rehabilitation.

Mr. President,

We are all aware that, in terms of political and economic realism, those who engage in the illicit trade of arms, as well as warlords and armed bands with terrorist or criminal intentions, have little to gain from a specific international arms agreement. Moreover, it is sad to note that solidarity with the victims of the use of small arms and light weapons - which are in fact arms of mass destruction against the poor - is not always considered a high priority.

My delegation, therefore, is well aware that our discussion takes on a wide-ranging dimension, an eloquently human dimension which places before us a choice between national or corporate interest and a culture of peace and solidarity. As Pope John Paul II affirmed in his Message for the World Day of Peace at the beginning of this year, "The culture of solidarity is closely connected with the value of peace... The alarming increase of arms runs the risk of feeding and expanding a culture of competition and conflict, a culture involving not only States but also non-institutional entities, such as paramilitary groups and terrorist organizations ... Faced with such threats, everyone must feel the moral duty to take concrete and timely steps to promote the cause of peace and understanding among peoples".

Thank you, Mr. President.

[Alan Fud]

Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!

[TexasRifleman]

But some Catholics in Hyattsville believe that guns and God do not belong in the same building, nor in the same collection basket.

Typical response from "religious" people that have never actually READ a Bible. I live next door to a pair of these "enlightened" types.

[Spot77]

Y'all do know that you've resurrected a thread from two and a half years ago, right?


I'm interested to see if the Catholic Sportsmen still exist or not......

[MilSpecMan]

I'm interested to see if the Catholic Sportsmen still exist or not......


Yes, yes we do. We are everywhere.... We just do not post alot ;)


MilSpecMan
(aka Fug)

[NHBB]

keep church and guns separate! :D ;)