[280PLUS]

i'm at the range yesterday with the hi power and i'm practicing picking up the gun off the bench, cocking, firing double taps and decocking with a round in the chamber, my muzzle was ALWAYS pointed downrange

now to decock is a little tricky because you have to pull the hammer back and then pull the trigger, the you lower the hammer to a half cock position (THAT IS NOT A SAFETY, INCIDENTLY) and then repeat the procedure to put the hammer in the decocked position.

the gun is relatively new, so that hammer is tough

anyhow, near the end of this exercise of 100 rounds i had what we call around here a brain fart

i forgot to pull the hammer back before pulling the trigger :what:

to which the gun responded with its obligatory loud bang

scared the living doo doo outta me!!

the round went safely downrange

ND/AD,,,you make the call...

i was excessively mad at me BTW so i don't need anymore grief than i already gave myself :mad:

:D

[dakotasin]

nd.

file the incident in your 'things to not forget file', and move on.

[Graystar]

Well, the gun operated as expected, so it's clearly an ND. But it is interesting. Reminds me of people claiming that they practice undoing the safety and firing, so if the time ever come to defend, they will be able to undo the safety and shoot. Seems risky to me. That's why I'm a Glock person.

[Delmar]

I would call it an ND, but your saving grace was the fact that you had the muzzle pointed in a safe direction, so what was hurt the most was your feelings. Rule number one at the Casa Del Delmar is WATCH WHERE THE MUZZLE IS POINTED. The safety rules are all very important, but where the muzzle is pointed is king, absolute, and not ever to be skipped, even for a moment.

Bet that one got your undivided attention! Personally, I hope for things to happen like that for shooters getting a bit too complacent WITH no bad result-it will make you refocus your safety awareness as few other things will.

BTW, do you carry with the hammer down on a loaded chamber? Not calling it a bad thing-firearms are only as safe as the person carrying them, but dry practice is a good thing too if you are trying to develop a certain carry practice.

[shermacman]

I have a lever action Henry with the same decock system. And the same negligent discharge while reloading...pulling the trigger with my thumb on hammer to set the hammer in 'locked' position. Thumb slips off of hammer with the resulting crack of 38 grains of lead breaking the sound barrier. The barrel was pointed down range. I quit for the day. Scared the living daylights out of me.

[280PLUS]

i don't normally carry it, too bulky, too hard to conceal. plus the S/A makes it too tricky for me to trust in a bad situation, ive got a sa/da snubbie revolver for that.

it's more of a SHTF gun but i practice with it a couple times a month.

youre probably right about the dry decock, i mean i have done it dry many times prior to this but i was trying to get a feel for doing it live

next time i'll only load 2 rounds at a time so the decock will always be dry in practice

defintely got my attention, definitely learned me something new

as fars as a round in the chamber with the hammer down, the manual says it can be carried this way but browning does not recommend it.

it it is NOT to be carried in the half cock position with a round in the chamber like some others ive seen, they point out quite clearly that it is not a safety feature (FWIW)

thanx, i'll be back later to read some more...

:D

[Al in Md]

I have to call this a A/D-N/D. Any time a surprise discharge occurs a mistake on your part has been made. I had one with a 1911 style pistol. In my first shooting session with it I shot to slide lock, Inserted a full mag, left my finger on the trigger and released the slide lock lever with my thumb. The momentum of the slide going to battery pitched the gun forward in my hand and with the light and short trigger caused the gun to fire. It was pointed down range and other than my pride no harm. I was lucky in the fact that I was at the range alone and my stupidity was not seen by others. My obvious error was leaving my finger on the trigger, a gross violation of the basic safety rules. Take it as a lesson learned and practice safe gun handling in the future. Al

[Atticus]

UD- unintentional discharge. Glad to hear no one was hurt.

[Jim March]

The good news is, in order to do actual damage you have to break TWO rules at once (any two, pretty much).

Muzzle direction is the absolute #1. And at a range with a good backstop, if you send a round into said backstop, I have a hard time calling that a real problem. More like a perfectly safe learning experience, which is what ranges are for so...by all means learn, but don't beat yourself up.

[keyhole]

2 kinds of shooters, those who have, and those who will.

Put me in the first class. Glad that I was pointing in a safe direction, just did not keep the main rule, keeping finger off trigger!

Happens.

:banghead:

[AK103K]

mmm, I'm a little confused. Why are you trying to lower the hammer on a loaded round anyway? The HP is meant to be carried cocked and locked, like a 1911. There is no "decock", and as you mentioned, the half cock is not a safety. If your not comfortable carrying it cocked and locked, then practice charging it from hammer down on an empty chamber. I think the only unsafe part about what your doing is trying to lower the hammer on the loaded round.
You mentioned that you dont carry it because its to bulky and hard to conceal, and "tricky". I dont understand this, especially the "too tricky for me to trust in a bad situation" part. Whats up with that? With the right holster, the HP is very easy to conceal.

[P95Carry]

U/D ...... hmmm, rather like that Atticus! ....... well, U/D bordering on N/D ..... but as noted already - of much more harm to the ego than any object. Been there and done that ... tho in my case it was ''pre-target turn pressure'' whilst in ready position .... revo was cocked .... round buried itself into ground. :rolleyes:

As a generalization I think N/D is invariably the case ..... simply because something has to have been overlooked .... but if the main rule of all (to me) is not broken (do not point at anything you would not wish to destroy) ...... then little harm will arise.

[riverdog]

I agree with AK103K. My first reaction to your initial post was "there's no decock on a BHP!" I consider this practice with any SA semi-auto to be unsafe in concept. Start from Condition 3, full magazine, empty chamber and just rack the slide to get to Condition 0. It's just as fast and much safer. Cocking the pistol in condition 3 is fine but not necessary.

[Beav]

I know at least one of my handgun manuals advises against decocking in this method and my S&W 686+ manual advises against staging the trigger for probably the same reason.

[Peetmoss]

You made a mistake and violated 1 rule. Therefore it was negligent. However you followed the other 3 so it was a good learning expierance. I hope this is the only one you ever have.

[hksw]

IMO, ND.

Gun functioned normally and did not fire due to damage.

Operator did not function properly.

Not to berate you, just what the incident boiled down to for me. Hopefully, when an ND will eventually happen to me, it will be in a similar environment as yours.

[TechBrute]

ND

Some people will tell you there is no such thing as an AD. I disagree. An AD is when the gun does not function properly, such as slam firing. Provided basic safety rules are followed, and noone was hurt, then that's an AD.

A ND is when the gun functions as expected and fires like it's supposed to. This event was definately a ND.

As a side note, I've never figured out why people insist on decocking single action guns on a live round. It's just asking for trouble.

[Old Fuff]

I don't know how you lower the hammer, but with a Browning Hi-Power I prefer to hold the gun in my strong (right) hand and lower the hammer with my weak (left) thumb placed accross the hammer spur.

What ever method you use, practice with an EMPTY gun untill the movements are a habit.

I am very forgiving toward those who always control the muzzle and keep it pointed in a safe direction or downrange. You did right.

[P95Carry]

As a side note, I've never figured out why people insist on decocking single action guns on a live round. It's just asking for trouble.I tend top agree for the most part .. but would mention that IF this is desired, then IMO it can be made way safer by use of weak hand thumb, placed just over the area to rear of firing fin protrusion (on HP I am thinking of here) ... perhaps even a little above.

Then, as right thumb lowers hammer whilst trigger pulled, the other thumb is there as a ''stop'', at least until hammer all but down. If a mistake made then perhaps a bit of damage to weak hand thumb but - unlikely anything much worse.

[Feanaro]

ND. Ya broke a rule and forgot the hammer. (No offense, just calling it like I see it) But you were pointing it down range, so you get points for that. ;)

Although I don't know why you would want to practice decocking, that's not the way it's supposed to work. And I also don't see why you did it with live rounds. But as long as you don't have anymore NDs then keep truckin' however ya want. :)

[P95Carry]

Fuff .... hehe! Great minds ........... or something! Ya beat me to it ... just!:)

[ojibweindian]

You've committed an ND.

You've done enough pennance, now go and sin no more. :D

[Erik]

ND - live and learn.

[cool45auto]

ND. Don't beat yourself up about it, could have been worse.

[280PLUS]

as a matter of fact, here it is now:D

pg 2 rule #3 - 'Do not carry the Hi Power with a round in the chamber"

(furthermore) "For good safety practice, it is RECOMMENDED (my capitals) that a round not be chambered until immediately before your pistol is to be fired"

Rule #4 "The recommended carring position of the hi-power is with the hammer in the dropped position"

(furthermore) "Carefully follow the procedures for lowering the hammer from the cocked to the decocked position explained later in this book"

Rule #14 "Dropping your Hi-Power when loaded can cause an accidental discharge even with the hammer in the dropped position"

pg 7 "Operation of the Hammer"

"The Browning Single Action pistol has an exposed hammer with dropped, half cock, and full cock positions. The hammer spur is serrated to help insure positive control while manually cocking and lowering the hammer

DROPPED POSITION--
"This is the recommended carrying position of the hammer WHETHER THERE IS A ROUND IN THE CHAMBER OR NOT"
(my capitals, then they follow with their capitals, in red)

"DO NOT CARRY A ROUND IN THE CHAMBER"

i translate this into "we know youre going to carry with a round in the chamber but if you do and you or someone else gets hurt, its your fault not ours cause we told you not to, so don't try to sue us"

i personally want a ccw that i can pull and shoot, no cocking, no safety to worry about releasing in a panic situation, fool proof protection, thats why i carry the revolver,

i figure ive got the bhp to use if there is imminent danger that i'm aware of and i have time to get it out of the safe, load it and if necessary, cock it.

as far as size/concealability goes, i work outside and climb a lot and get myself into pretty tight spots at times and in summer wear jeans and a tee shirt, a 1911 style pistol is not what you want to carry for this, believe me, beepers on my belt have caused me to get hung up and if you're up high this can be really not fun, so,,,

i carry a lightweight j frame snubbie in my pocket. this works for me as it doesn't get hung up when i'm trying to sqeeze into a tight spot

FWIW i was practicing one hand and i was FULLY aware of the fact that the gun could discharge during this practice, but i expected to be from the hammer slipping or my releasing it too quickly, not because i forgot to hold the hammer back before pulling the trigger.

i was attempting to determine what the threshold was on how fast you could lower the hammer before it would discharge,

FYI a few of my releases were fairly fast but did not result in discharge.

some lessons learned that day for sure!

:D

[Edward429451]

I agree with the UD conclusion.

Doing this sort of thing at a range while observing the rules precludes the ND conclusion, I think. After all the dry practice at home, you just gotta go live at some point! Going to the range was not negligent. Nor practicing live. Disobeying #'s 2, 3, or 4 would have been negligent.

YMMV.

[Navy joe]

ND.

Condition I or CIII with BHPs and 1911s. Pick one. Condition II should be technically known as asking for it.

As you point out the manual is quite useless unless you are a Browning exec. attempting to CYA.

Our coffee cups warn us of hot liquids now, how much longer before the slides of our pistols are etched "Caution, this end projects little hard fast objects that really hurt. Point this end at usee and other end at user."

Downrange is always a good thing.

My BHP AD involved one that decided it was time to start doubling. They have a really fast cyclic rate.

[280PLUS]

"Caution, this end projects little hard fast objects that really hurt."

ROFLMAO

:D

[geekWithA.45]

Unintentional Discharge: "Anytime your firearm discharges without 100% of your intention for it to do so."

AD: Mechanical Error
ND: Operator Error

AD/ND Debate: A debate centering around value judgements concerning operator culpability. As a general rule, the firearms community holds high standards for ourselves, and thus the debate quickly resolves towards the ND side of the spectrum.

IMO, it's a murky argument with respect to decocking an SA pistol. I subscribe to the notion that decocking an SA on a chambered round is not a good administrative handling technique, as this pattern has lead to a number of UD's.

Furthermore it's poor user interface design in general to ascribe two functions to the same control, in this case, the trigger.

In this case, the two functions in question are entirely polar opposites! I mean, how far can you get from "Fire and destroy anything in front of the muzzle" to "configure the device to reduce the chance firing and destroying whatever is in front of the muzzle"? :scrutiny:

I suspect that the historical acceptance of this design is an artifact of the revolver's operating system.

[P95Carry]

how much longer before the slides of our pistols are etched "Caution, this end projects little hard fast objects that really hurt. Point this end at usee and other end at user."
Navy - I have even wondered, not entirely facetiously about when that might arrive!! ..... like 280 said .... ROTFLMAO!! http://www.patriotnetwork.net/images/smilies/rotfl.gif

[OF]

ND. The gun worked the way it was designed. Only because 280Plus managed to have the thing pointed in the right direction is this a learning experience and not a court case.

I think lowering the hammer on a single-action pistol with a round in the chamber is a bad idea any way you slice it. Even with the muzzle downrange, if you slipped and the half-cock notch didn't grab the hammer you could do a real number on your thumb along with your shorts.

Maybe it would be safer to run that drill without the decocking segment. Just keep a bunch of mags on the table with 2 rounds in them and reload the gun between grabs.

- Gabe

[280PLUS]

so it seems we might tend to agree that this type of pistol is not the best design for a ccw in terms of speed vs safety,

unless we were to accept the glaring hazards created by carrying it with a round in the chamber vs having to rack the gun before firing in a sudden bad situation

continuing to learn...trying to work in between...

:D

just for matters of clarification , i did not "manage" to keep the muzzle safe, i purposely and conciously did so, at all times throughout

i may look dumb but i try my best not to be:)

[AK103K]

i personally want a ccw that i can pull and shoot, no cocking, no safety to worry about releasing in a panic situation, fool proof protection, thats why i carry the revolver,
Nothing is fool proof, as your little accident shows. The HP/1911's when carried cocked and locked are very fast and natural to get into action. There is no "panic" involved when you have practiced to the point that its an unconscious action. I've carried a 1911 daily for almost 30 years in Condition 1 and never had any problem. Whats the point in carrying a gun if its not loaded and ready to go?

as far as size/concealability goes, i work outside and climb a lot and get myself into pretty tight spots at times and in summer wear jeans and a tee shirt, a 1911 style pistol is not what you want to carry for this, believe me, beepers on my belt have caused me to get hung up and if you're up high this can be really not fun, so,,,
I work outside also. I get into places most people would balk at going. I crawl through manholes, pipes, greenbriars, thickets, up over rocks, buildings, etc, and never worried about my pistol, or for that matter, the double reload, leatherman, and cell phone on my belt either . Although I have broke a couple of Nextels. :) I wear jeans, a tee shirt, and an untucked oxford shirt most times in the summer, sweatshirts in the winter. With a good kydex IWB holster and a good belt, its easy and comfortable to conceal a full sized 1911 or Commander without any trouble. I find them easier to conceal than the 2" snubbies and little pocket guns. At least I'm a lot less self concious of the 1911. That little pistol in my pocket feels like its just standing out and everyone is looking at it.

[Mute]

ND. It happens. Some have said there are only 2 types of gun users, those who've had ND's and those who will. I'm glad you're ok and no one else was hurt.

so it seems we might tend to agree that this type of pistol is not the best design for a ccw in terms of speed vs safety

Not quite. This system is not the best for someone who isn't willing to put in enough training and practice so that the manual of arms for this type of setup is second nature.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. I don't see any good reason to resort to condition 2 carry.

[OF]

Condition 1 for carry!

I used to carry a USP in condition 1, and as soon as my new holster shows up here I'll be carrying a 1911 in condition 1 (switching from a Glock).

Cocked and Locked: Do it for the Children.

- Gabe

[280PLUS]

ok, nothing is fool proof

but every step i can eliminate from pulling to shooting is a step i don't have to worry about fouling up at a critical moment

maybe panic wasn't the right term, maybe "under pressure" would make more sense.

according to the manufacturer. cocked and locked is not recommended, carrying with a round in the chamber with the hammer in ANY position is again, not recommended

i'm assuming they have reasons for this

therefore, according to the browning, the only way recommended to carry their pistol is with an empty chamber and with the hammer down

this necessitates adding the cocking procedure to the firing sequence, if youre following their recommendations, and a step to foul up if youre pressured,

your hand could slip off the slide and not chamber a round, e.g. no matter how much you've practiced, its still possible

me, no i havent practiced with it enough yet to feel proficient enough to do everything right under pressure.

with my snubbie, all i have to do is pull the trigger, if it doesnt go bang, all i got to do is pull the trigger again and hope it was a bad round and not a broken gun...

:D

[Andrew Wyatt]

Question: why were you decocking under stress?

[280PLUS]

i find it vague and contradictory.

Andrew, i was practicing the live decock because the manual instructs you in the procedure, i wasn't under any stress while doing this, maybe you misunderstood, or i misunderstand your question

a few more excerpts:

pg 9 "Lowering the Hammer"

(At this point the manual has the pistol in full cock with a round in the chamber, there is no indication that the just cocked gun has been cleared prior to this sequence)

(1 - 6 describes the procedure i posted earlier, then)

#7 "Ease the hammer against the inertia firing pin. The hammer is now in the dropped position--the recommended carrying position." (no red capital letters disclaimer following this to say"Do not carry with a round in the chamber")

pg 10

#5 (it tells you how to chamber a round after you insert the mag with the slide forward, action open)

"then, with your thumb, depress the slide stop and let the slide spring forward, feeding the first round from the magazine into the chamber. This is the maximum ready position."

(next, in red capitals) "Caution the pistol is now cocked and can be fired by simply sqeezing the trigger"
(then, get THIS!)

"Unless shooting is imminent, immediately place the pistol in a safer status by lowering the hammer to the dropped position"

(nothing about NOT carrying with a live round chambered at this point)

anyhow,

Condition Codes, from "The Marine Battle Skills Training Handbook"

Condition 1 "To place a weapon in condition 1, a round must be in position to fired and the safety must be on"

(does this mean hammer cocked also?)

Condition 2 " To place a weapon in condition 2, a round must be in position to be fired, the weapon's action must be closed, and the hammer must be forward "

(this would be brownings recommended carry condition, although they don't recommend carrying with a round in the chamber?)

Condition 3 "To place a weapon in condition 3, ammunition is in place to be chambered, the chamber is empty, the action is closed and the safety is on"

FWIW

Condition 4 - To place a weapon in condition 4, all ammunition is removed, the chamber is empty, the action is closed, the safety is on."

So in this thread i'm hearing carry in Condition 1 or 3 only NEVER 2, yet the manual is telling me carry in "a safer status" Condition 2 "unless shooting is imminent"

:confused:

me? i'm not crazy about carrying a pistol cocked with a round in the chamber and the safety on, i was taught to NEVER rely on the safety and to me it appears that this is what is happening in this particular scenario (Condition 1)

[Andrew Wyatt]

Condition one is the proper and safest way to carry a single action auto. (Safe as in less likely to shoot yourself, and safe as in you can shoot others who will do you harm more readily)


If you don't feel comfortable carrying the gun that way, sell it and get a double action auto.

[280PLUS]

:what: :eek:

:D

now, we don't have to go that far...

i'm just looking for clarification here

you folks here that carry these say Condition 1, the manual says Condition 2 but with the disclaimer of not carrying with a round in the chamber to cover themselves

if the good folks here say condition 1, then condition 1 it is, condition 3 just adds the step of cocking to the sequence.

it just goes against what ive previously been taught about gun safety

like i said earlier, i don't carry this gun for various reasons, i'm perfectly happy with my snubbie for ccw

i bought it because i wanted something a little heavier in the safe for homeland defense purposes should the need arise, (thats why i got the bushy too)

better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it, especially if theres a run on the gun shops in an emergency. you know there would be

so if you see me lugging it around you will know that the S has really HTF and its being carried in condition 1

which i will now practice firing from instead of Condition 2

:D

[Zak Smith]

I admit skipping much of the discussion here, but as a big fan of the BHP, I have to add:

1. What the heck are you doing carrying a BHP with the hammer down?

Carry it cocked and locked, man. It isn't going to bite you! (Or fire, for that matter.)

Modern BHPs (the MKIII generation starting in the early 90's) have a firing pin disconnect physically preventing firing pin movement unless the trigger has been pulled, much like the "Series 80" Colts.

I admit this point often degrades into a "religious" argument, but I don't think any pistol without a dedicated decock lever should be carried or operated in a manner than requires decocking - ever.

2. Bulky? The BHP is considered a "full size" handgun, but it is very slim and compact for a 13+1 (or 15+1 with the right mags) 9mm. It's smaller than the Glock 19 or the USP Compact, for example. To make it "seem" less bulky, replace the factory grips with a nice set of Spegel, Ahrends, Navidrex Micarta, or Uncle Mike's thin grips.

For a CCW pistol, or just for shooting, I've gone from a USP to some Glocks (sub-compact #27 and compact #19/23), to some CZ's (full-size and compact) but settled on the BHP. Its thin profile and short grip make it comfortable to carry in a good IWB holster, and 15+1 of 9mm is sufficient...

-z

[280PLUS]

to answer your question read through the thread to see what browning's manual says.

it is in direct contradiction with what is being said here by thr members.

i was just following the directions given by browning in the operation of the pistol

again, i do not carry this weapon as a rule for the reasons explained elsewhere in the thread

but if and when i do it will be "cocked and locked" just like everybody is telling me it should be.

:)

[Andrew Wyatt]

the reason why us and the manual disagree is because de don't have lawyers breathing down our necks.



condition one is the safest way to carry a single action auto with a thumb safety.

[Zak Smith]

This thread
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22787

contains pictures of one of my BHPs. You can see how some nice Spegel thin grips make the pistol considerably less bulky. E.g.

http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/pictures/2003-05-12-bhp/pick/89-c.jpg

-z

[Edward429451]

280, I understand your apprehension about carrying it condition 1. I too had apprehension like that when I first got my single action Colt, 18 years ago.

What I did for awhile (around the house) was to carry a primed empty case in the chamber, cocked & locked. I did that until I began to feel stupid about doing it and switched to a live cartridge. It lasted about two weeks before the change over. That same pistol has been cocked and locked pretty much ever since. Two times in 18 yrs I've found the safety had disengaged itself, while performing strenuous activity. Never had a mishap.

As long as you never violate rule #2 and #3, you are safe. Its all in your head. Of course the manufacturers are going to say "Oh no, no bullets in the chamber!" to cover their liability. Thats all that is.

Condition 1 will not slow you down one whit on readiness, etc., in fact its probably faster than the DA first shot. I practiced my draws from leather to release the safety at about a 45 degree angle as its coming up (while finger is still outside of the guard). I dont even have to think about it now, it just automatic and just as fast as if it were cocked and unlocked. Also train to engage safety at the same point on the downstroke towards holster after firing or whatever.

My IWB holster has the strap that snaps across the back of slide blocking hammer to gun for added safety (peace of mind).

You need to log some hours cond. 1, bro. Spring for a holster.;)

[280PLUS]

thanx all!!

got a lot out of this one!

except what does IWB stand for?

:D

[Zak Smith]

IWB = "Inside the Waistband".

It refers to a holster that holds the pistol inside the waistband of your pants, instead of outside ("OWB").

Here's an example from the Milt Sparks website of an IWB model, the Watch-Six:

http://www.miltsparks.com/images/Photos/WS1_side.JPG

-z

[280PLUS]

i kind of thought so but i like to be sure, i thought it might be a brand name

hmmm, that could work, nice pic

i've been leaning in the direction of an under the left arm shoulder holster and cross drawing, again, i never bought this one for a ccw, but now that i see this holster it becomes more of an option.

you cover that with only a tee shirt?

i like the idea of the strap between the hammer and pin, it makes me feel better

as you can see i'm still working at being proficient in the proper handling of the weapon in a carry/defense type situation, now that i am proficient at hitting the target with it

it'll all come together, i just want to make sure it comes together correctly :D

i can't believe that stinkin' manual, i'd say the manual is more dangerous than the firearm

:what: :eek:

"VERY IMPORTANT: Carefully read this manual before using your new Browning firearm." :barf:

[Zak Smith]

My standard CCW setup these days is the BHP (the one posted above) in the Milt Sparks Watch-Six IWB holster... basically as pictured but a BHP instead of a 1911. (The "butt" of the BHP's grip is a little shorter than the 1911 grip, which makes it a little easier to conceal.)

To answer your question: Yes, it conceals fine under a t-shirt. I often just wear an untucked t-shirt for concealment. Alternatively, sometimes I tuck the t-shirt under the holster (ie, between the holster and my skin) and then wear a Patagonia-style untucked button-up shirt over the top.

Some holsters (e.g. Sparks VersaMax2) are designed so that you can tuck in a shirt over it, too.

With a sweatshirt, fleece, or light coat, a good quality OWB holster can even be concealed - my favorite is the
Milt Sparks NP-1 (http://www.miltsparks.com/NP1-large.htm).

As a general comment, a good thick sturdy belt is vital to comfortably carrying in a holster. I prefer the "Instructor Belt" from The Wilderness Tactical, but many prefer a nice thick leather gunbelt. 1.5" is a good width.

There's no need for a strap between the hammer and firing pin. The MKIII BHP cannot fire unless the trigger is pulled.. even if the hammer "slips off the sear."

-z

[280PLUS]

i'll be looking into it

thanx zak

:D

[Mr. Black]

I think I'm going to yak. Does it really say those things in the BHP manual? That is the dumbest think I ever heard.

Carry it locked and cocked.

Carry it with an empty chamber and the hammer down.

DO NOT DECOCK A SA GUN! The preferred method for many is after firing to dry fire the gun to lower the hammer. That way you're darn sure that it's not chambered.

Condition 2 is very dumb. Especially without a firing pin safety (old HP, some 1911's)

Any way, a BHP is fine to conceal (I manage to do a full size goverment under a t-shirt. And with a good holster (i.e. milt sparks) a thumb break is a detriment.

Glocks scare me; condition 0 all the time. So carry it cocked and locked and forget it.

And good choice of a firearm; despite the manual.

[Mute]

Let's clarify something here. When the gun is in condition 3, you shouldn't have to cock the gun to have it ready to fire. You need to manually operate the slide to load a round into the chamber, at which point your gun will be cocked already.

That is what you are referring to right?

[Edward429451]

And with a good holster (i.e. milt sparks) a thumb break is a detriment

Maybe to an advanced pistolero. But a thumbsnap holster is a good stepping stone to someone who is less than 'expert'. Baby steps.:D

I admit I have advanced and graduated to an open top holster with my Galco Crossdraw, which I use sometimes with no qualms...but I do still use the thumbsnap IWB more. I've thought about taking a razorknife and lopping off the strap, but have'nt yet.

[Dial911inVegas]

The two most frightening sounds you'll ever hear. "...hearing a bang when you expect a click..." and, "...hearing a click when you expect a bang!"

[Edward429451]

An unintended act is always an accident. Negligence is usually involved, but it's still an accident.

Dude, WADR, you need to think that through some more. An accident would be like... the sear failed and dropped the hammer. the brakes failed and you couldn't stop the car and crashed.

Accident;(Websters collegiate)

c: an unexpected happening causing loss or injury which is not due to any fault or misconduct on the part of the person injured but for which legal relief may be sought.

He pulled the trigger. His fault.

If negligence is involved, its not still an accident, its still unintentional maybe, but it definitly isnt an accident. In my mind, we flow from negligence to unintentional in that, he was adhereing to the safety rules as much as possible while performing a 'dangerous' drill (of sorts) on the range. Some things are so dangerous that you have to do it for real to get real insight into the mechanics of it. Like driving a car or shooting a gun. How many of us have never let an extra round go downrange? I know I have. I dont count those as negligent though, only unintentional.

Sorry for the diatribe but accident infers no fault of the operator and that is just not correct here.;) (We'll give him the unintentional b/c no one was hurt, but do be careful.)

[280PLUS]

seeing how i was following the directions of the manual it would seem i was almost set up for this to happen.

i was merely practicing something new and screwed up the sequence, this is almost to be expected with something new, wouldn't you say?

which is why i was making darn sure that muzzle was safe and i was alone at the range so noone else was anywhere near being hurt should i have REALLY screwed up

i agree that including the pulling of the trigger as a part of the decocking sequence on a live chamber is not the greatest idea and is asking for trouble

further more after yet more thought it occurs to me that had my thumb slipped and the gun fired my thumb would be probably a little messed up, or at least hurting real good.

so i see that you all are taking good care of me which is greatly appreciated

should i bother ranting to browning or would i be wasting my time?

you know what they are going to say.

call it whatever you want.

how about unintentional learning experience?

and yes i was quoting word for word from the manual, there's a couple more i could throw up for all to see and disbelieve, but why beat the dead horse anymore?

oh, and yes i believe Condition 3 to Condition 1 is reached by pulling the slide, realesing it to chamber a round and then locking the safety

:D

[Stephen A. Camp]

i'm at the range yesterday with the hi power and i'm practicing picking up the gun off the bench, cocking, firing double taps and decocking with a round in the chamber, my muzzle was ALWAYS pointed downrangeThese are good things you were doing: practice and being safe.

now to decock is a little tricky because you have to pull the hammer back and then pull the trigger, the you lower the hammer to a half cock position (THAT IS NOT A SAFETY, INCIDENTLY) and then repeat the procedure to put the hammer in the decocked position.For years, it's been stated that the half-cock notch is only there to catch the hammer should it slip while being cocked. Normally, it will not catch the hammer if being decocked as the trigger's usually still pressed when the hammer slips. If the trigger's pressed until the sear disengages the hammer's half-cock notch and then released, it will catch the hammer should it slip. With the later Mk II and most of the Mk III pistols, it won't fired if the trigger's not in the rearward position as the sear lever doubles as an internal firing pin safety.

the gun is relatively new, so that hammer is toughThey are that and they tend to stay that way. I believe the standard factory m/s rating is 32-lbs.

anyhow, near the end of this exercise of 100 rounds i had what we call around here a brain fart

i forgot to pull the hammer back before pulling the trigger

to which the gun responded with its obligatory loud bang

scared the living doo doo outta me!!

the round went safely downrange

ND/AD,,,you make the call...

i was excessively mad at me BTW so i don't need anymore grief than i already gave myselfIt was not a negligent discharge nor accidental as you MEANT for the pistol to fire. You simply neglected to have the pistol cocked and the hammer slipped the half-cock notch, which could have been for a couple of reasons, but I don't know which. 1. The hammer/sear engagement surfaces might not be "right" and allowed the sear to move out of the notch with the trigger's being pulled. I checked this just now on 4 HPs and they don't do it. 2. Somehow the sear didn't fully seat itself into the half-cock notch and was partially out when the trigger was pressed. I've seen this with some Colt 1911 pistols.

As has been mentioned by others, I suggest carrying the Hi Power or any single-action, externally hammered automatic with the hammer back and safety on, if it's being toted for protection. If the gun's in proper mechanical condition, which cannot be assessed from a far, this has proven to be safe over the decades.
Augment that safety by using a holster that fits the pistol snugly and covers the trigger guard and thus, the trigger; most do these days.

The Browning manual is written to give them "wiggle room" in the event of a perceived accidental shooting ("The gun just went off and killed so-and-so and it was the gun's fault and not mine. Then come the lawyers and negligent death suits so Browning tried to recommend things they thought would limit their exposure. I think trying to lower the hammer over a live round just increases the chances for the gun going off when it's not wanted.

I'd leave the hammer back and the thumb safety engaged whenever a round is chambered and forward ... or back when it's empty. It doesn't hurt the spring according to Wolff's Gunsprings to be compressed as it's not being compressed beyond that for which it was designed. As with magazine springs, "wearing them out" is related to how much they're used, i.e., compressed and then decompressed. I can tell you from personal experience that you will not weaken the standard factory mainspring in a lifetime of shooting nor a constant state of "Condition One."

Some will disagree to leaving the hammer back when the pistol's not loaded and there is merit in their concerns that usually center around one mistakenly assuming it is and then carrying an empty or partially loaded pistol that they think is ready to go. I suggest that we all try and adhere to the following; it's paid big dividends for me in the past although it has offended a very few folks over the years; The only "unloaded" gun is one I've NOT set down and one I've checked. If I "lose control" of it even for a second, I check it. It doesn't matter if someone hands it to me and says, "It's empty." I check it. This has upset a couple of folks, but the risks are too great and you only have to be wrong once.

Chambering a round just before use does not put you in Condition One from Condition Three; it puts you in Condition Zero, hammer cocked and safety off. I disagree with this mode of carry as it assumes you'll have both hands free when the "ball begins." Such may not be the case. Likewise, cocking while possibly in a physical confrontation might result in the pistol being dropped.

I suggest taking an empty gun and at the range, letting the hammer go to the half-cock and seeing if the situation will repeat. If it does, I'd have a 'smith look the pistol over as there's a problem with the hammer half-cock notch and the sear.

Finally, thanks for your post. Not everyone will mention an incident such as this and I think everyone has benefited from your experience and relating it.

Best.

[280PLUS]

fyi, it wasnt due to any mechanical mis-function of the HP, it was a mechanical dys-function on my part, i'll admit.

the gun was ready to fire, Condition 0, and instead of pulling the hammer back first, i pulled the trigger first.

just a momentary lapse in control, but obviously a dangerous one and we know that's all it takes...

but i do also feel that my being instructed by them to lower the hammer on a live round as a part of the recommended carry procedure was a big big contributing factor.

and you are all welcome for my putting my neck on the chopping block in the hopes thaat noone else here will be led down the same path and possibly injure themselves or anyone else.

and again, thanx for everyone's much appreciated input on the subject

m

:D

[Edward429451]

WADR = 'With all due respect'

Well, it sounds like we're mostly on the same page. Maybe our dictionaries disagree a little? In my mind, an accident implies no fault of the operator, like something mechanical breaking. This was not the case here, hence no accident. Definitly un-intentional and I'm hard pressed to be able to assign negligence to it since he was adhereing to as many rules as reasonably possible while doing the dangerous operation.

I wasn't trying to belittle you if that was even directed at me. I was just calling you on the terminology since I didn't agree with it. My apologies if I had a bad choice of words for you, (that was an accident :D or unintentional as the case may be). I was trying to enlighten you, cause of course I think I'm right , so do you...So, semantics aside, at least no one was hurt.

Maybe with all the legalese surrounding guns, I've subconciously leaned towards more precise assignations (?) of terms surrounding verbal descriptions of said event. Like all the Glock 'accidents' with fingers on the triggers, which are largely negligent, and momentary lapse of reason or not, are still negligent in the truest sense of the word. Maybe we just agree to disagree. No offense intended, just tryin to help.:)

[Edward429451]

:cool:

[280PLUS]

always make sure you know what a word means before you try to use it

:D