.357 Sig Question


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hrgrisso
March 6, 2007, 11:16 AM
First, I hope this is in the right area. I am unaware of an "ammo" questions section. If there is, Mods, please move it? Thanks.

Now to my question: I recently saw this on THR.

and of course .357Sig is still an answer looking for a question (at least when saving your life is the concern at hand)

So I guess the real question is this. Why do some view the .357Sig this way? What do YOU feel is wrong with it? I like the idea of having a gun that has 10-16 rounds of .357 Mag power without having to reload.

I know that many people bring up over penetration. Others bring up "It doesn't match .357Mag performance in every load."

I believe there are logical and acceptable answers to each question brought up about this cool handgun. In my mind it's a modern equivilant of the 7.62x25. I love that power. Plus it's range is out past most others useful/accurate distance.

So what do you all think?

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waynedm
March 6, 2007, 11:44 AM
Time will tell this. Here's my opinion.

You can get .357 sig energy out of .40, .45 or 9mm. From the Jello tests I've seen the 125 grain .357 sig doesn't penetrate anymore than the other popular rounds. Speed (energy) doesn't necessarily mean it will penetrate more. The faster it's going to sooner and more wide the hollow point will open up thus stopping penetration sooner.

Another factor is that it's a pain (I hear) to reload. I guess the pressures don't make for a very friendly reload anyway because of the stress on the brass. Being able to reload what I'd sort of call specialty ammo is important. 10mm would have gone away right away if not for being able to reload it easily.

Does it match the .357 magnum? I wouldn't say it does. You can get the .357 mag pushing a 158 grain a a good clip. I haven't seen anythign but 125 grain in .357 sig. 125 vs 158 grain for penetration won't even be close. The 9mm 147 grain beats out the .357 sig on penetration.

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t58/waynedavid/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg

outofbattery
March 6, 2007, 12:18 PM
Generally speaking,it's the snarky reply of someone that thinks all pistols developed after 1911 are inferior.They say the same thing about .40.

.357SIG has a very good record in LE shootings.That is all that matters.

antsi
March 6, 2007, 12:56 PM
"357 SIG is an answer looking for a question that nobody asked"

What the heck is that supposed to mean, anyway?

I have no idea how to respond to that, because it doesn't make the slightest bit of sense.

Commonly heard opinions:
"Too powerful, with too much recoil and muzzle flash and likely to overpenetrate"
"Far too wimpy; doesn't come close to the performance of 357 magnum."
It seems as if the 357 SIG Critics' Society needs to get together an settle on one consistent story :D

My opinion on 357 SIG:
It's not a magic bullet, but neither are any of the others.
For self defense effectiveness, my bet is that 9mm para, 357 SIG, 40 SW, and 45 ACP are all so close to each other it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference which one you use.
Personally, I shoot 357 SIG well (by my standards anyway) and I have a gun I really like that's chambered for it. I think it is probably as effective as any of the other major defensive calibers.

Tezcatlipoca
March 6, 2007, 01:00 PM
It is easy to reload. I reload it by the thousands.


Look at double tap ammo to see the true potential out of this round when compared to 357 mag loads of the same weight and barrel length.

hagar
March 6, 2007, 01:22 PM
If there is a chance you will ever get to shoot at cars, people behind cover, or wearing light body armor, you will be glad to have it. Texas DPS dropped the 45 because of the pathetic penetration they had with it, and went to the 357 SIG. It takes some special reloading procedures, it is more like a rifle round, but no big deal. And there are numerous 145 grain loadings available if you want heavier bullets. The big plus is that it is probably the most accurate self defence handgun load available, it will outshoot the 40 by a mile, have more energy and penetration than the 45, and leave the 9mm in the dust.

hrgrisso
March 6, 2007, 01:37 PM
The .357 Mag with the "magic" record was the 115 grain bullet (sorry I forget designation).

It is possible to duplicate that load with the .357 Sig with the same load (again this is all from memory, I apologize for not having specifics). I love my 229 in .357Sig. Plus I can swap it out easily for the .40.

I guess I think it's a great cartridge and wish more people used it. Of course this is my own selfishness speaking, because I wish the ammo was more common, i.e. cheaper!

waynedm
March 6, 2007, 02:01 PM
For self defense effectiveness, my bet is that 9mm para, 357 SIG, 40 SW, and 45 ACP are all so close to each other it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference which one you use.

+1

ATAShooter
March 6, 2007, 02:05 PM
I loaded some 357 sig with the Hornady XTP 124gr. In a self Defense situation, It'll do what I need it to. Let it be noted that putting a cannelure solved my crimp problem with it.

TacMedic4450
March 6, 2007, 02:41 PM
All I have to say is I have seen people with 2,3,4 or even 5 rounds of 9mm in them and not really even having a bad day but I have seldom seen anyone even survive 2 rounds of .40 or .357 sig. Granted each situation is different but I saw plenty of gsw's at parkland's trauma er in dallas. I did see one guy come in with 13 rounds of 9mm from an irving cop one day and he was having a pretty bad day.

Mandirigma
March 6, 2007, 04:21 PM
If there is a chance you will ever get to shoot at cars, people behind cover, or wearing light body armor, you will be glad to have it. Texas DPS dropped the 45 because of the pathetic penetration they had with it, and went to the 357 SIG.

This all influenced why I got interested in the round. Then had some awesome deals on a Glock 31 (LEO buddy in need of some cash) and Glock 33(Buddy reenlisted in the Army after a few years out) fall into my lap while I was doing research on the round performance. So I went out and shot them. Fell in love with the round. Ended up re-selling the G31 back, but still have the G33.

Tom Servo
March 6, 2007, 04:49 PM
So I guess the real question is this. Why do some view the .357Sig this way? What do YOU feel is wrong with it? I like the idea of having a gun that has 10-16 rounds of .357 Mag power without having to reload.
If you shoot it well, carry it and don't feel underarmed.

I played around with the round a few years back and really enjoyed shooting it. It's got a nice "boomy" acoustic signature (unlike the high-pitched "crack" of the .40) and it was very accurate. I shied away from it because it was quite expensive at the time.

I've spoken to a few LEO's who carry the round, and word from "real world" shootings is that it's quite effective. Texas HP have reported that it duplicates the "lightning bolt" effect of the 125gr .357.

At its *worst* it's a very hot 9mm, which is quite effective :)

alucard0822
March 6, 2007, 05:46 PM
penetration isn't everything, stopping power, shot placement, and permanent cavity are. according to the gel data all rounds tested has sufficient penetration, the 45 has the widest trauma area, but the 357 sig is a close 2nd and sustains it almost all the way to 12". once velocity starts to top 1500fps the impact shock deformation starts to become fairly dramatic, This is the injuring mechanism rifles use, a 100gr .243 dia varmint bullet designed for fragmentation will probably penetrate less than any of the handgun rounds listed and is much lighter but has tremendous energy transfer, that is where the stopping power comes from.

AK103K
March 6, 2007, 06:32 PM
according to the gel data all rounds tested has sufficient penetration, the 45 has the widest trauma area, but the 357 sig is a close 2nd and sustains it almost all the way to 12".
If you look close at the above pic, I think its actually got the largest damage track of the lot and penetrates as deep or deeper than the others. The 9mm's damage track is noticeably narrower.

I never understood all the controversy. Truthfully, I think its "penis envy", but what do I know. :D The round was designed to mimic the 125 grain 357MAG out of a 4" barrel, the load most touted as the #1 stopper, and it does that. Yes you can hot rod the 357MAG, or anything for that matter, and that is the first thing you usually hear, but thats not the issue. Unless its all you got to try to shoot it down.

The 9mm people will tell you that the +P and +P+ stuff will match it, and they do come "close", but they are at the limit of the 9mm's power(the 357SIG is just getting started) and I know of only one manufacturer that will endorse +P+ use in their weapons,(Hi Point of all people) and many of the older guns probably shouldnt be fed a diet of +P. Wear and cost is the main issue, and if you practice with ammo thats the same power as your carry ammo, its a real issue.

I like it because its 8-13 rounds of 357MAG level ammo out of my easy to shoot SIG's. Its accurate, and very easy to shoot well with, and it works for me. :)

waynedm
March 6, 2007, 06:45 PM
penetration isn't everything, stopping power, shot placement, and permanent cavity are.

What hick garage trauma ballistics book have you been reading? It's the opposite. Penetration is what's key. I can't believe you even said 'Stopping power!'

AK103K
March 6, 2007, 07:11 PM
I would think its the best combination of all the above, dont you?

alucard0822
March 6, 2007, 08:51 PM
if penetration is all that matters why waste money on hollow points? all they do is slow the bullet down in tissue, go for the heaviest small caliber fmj stuff you can find. They will have plenty of energy left as they fly through the target and keep on penetrating. And by no means look into big bore stuff, shotgun slugs and the like, they waste all that energy in the target when they could be penetrating, deep penetrating tactical crossbows are the way of the future.

fed_wif_a_sig
March 6, 2007, 10:16 PM
Guys just one comment on the 357Sig round. I am not a big fan of it (and I'm issued it). There was a shooting in 2005 in Miami where 12 rounds were fired at about 20 feet and all 12 hit the suspect. Six of the twelve went through and through and traveled up to 90 feet down range. Just something to think about. I have heard from TX DPS troopers that they are very happy with it considering its ability to penetrate doors and be effective. Just not something I am comfortable with for standard carry.

waynedm
March 7, 2007, 10:15 AM
if penetration is all that matters why waste money on hollow points?

I don't, I leave that up to the arm chair warriors that have fallen into the marketing campaign of hollow points being the next best thing to those phaser guns on Star Trek. The ammo manufacturers aren't going to tell you they aren't as effective. Hell, they're getting you to pay $1 a round and more for them as opposed to say $.15 a round.

I'm not against a larger bore, just against rounds that don't penetrate. It is comforting to know that if I for some reason ever get shot it'll most likely be with a hollow point and I'll survive because everybody subscribes to this hollow point kick.

You keep talking about your temporary cavities and hydrostatic shock and all the other nonsense that doesn't matter one bit with handgun wounds.

AK103K
March 7, 2007, 11:04 AM
I don't, I leave that up to the arm chair warriors that have fallen into the marketing campaign of hollow points being the next best thing to those phaser guns on Star Trek.
Are you including pretty much every law enforcement and government agency that uses them in here, or is it just the internet commando's? :)

Theres no doubt that penetration is good, but so is energy dump, larger wound tracks with more tissue damage, and anything else you can wring out of it. Like I said, a little of everything is a good thing, especially if you can get all in one package. Regardless what you use, shoot them to the ground, and then it wont matter.

alucard0822
March 7, 2007, 02:20 PM
there is a big difference between lethality and stopping power. It is true blood loss is the most likely cause of death in shootings, adding an exit wound to the entrance wound decreases time to bleed-out dramatically. Ball rounds do penetrate deeper and have a better chance of going through than HP rounds. The only problem is that I don't necisarily want to kill, but I do want to stop a perpetrator as soon as possible from continuing the action that caused me to fire shots in the first place. Bleed-out takes time, most likely a scarce commodity in a shooting. Any type of round can kill, and any round can miss, but bullet design properties influence what they do when they hit. I do agree that hollow points are less likely to kill, but dump more energy, and have a better chance to knock someone down, this serves my purpose.

357SIG
March 7, 2007, 09:57 PM
I've been carrying and shooting 357 SIG for a long time now. It's accurate, loud, and powerful.

Some points to consider:

It is no harder to reload than any other pistol round. Proper crimping is important. Also, use the proper shaped bullets.

It is not supposed to do anything but replicate the 125 .357 Mag. self-defense load. It was not made to compete with the 158 gr. full-power hunting loads or hot-rodded 125 gr. loads.

Finally, the most powerful 9mm load does not touch any 357 SIG load, assuming same bullet weight and brand of ammo (e.g. Speer Gold Dots, Double Tap ammo, etc. in 115 gr. for each caliber)

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