[RODS]

Hello All

I use large and small standard Winchester primers for my reloading.Some times they are hard to find around here,what I would like to know is can i sub CCI 300 and 500 primers for the Winchesters using the same reloading data.

[The Bushmaster]

Yup...In fact you will see a 25 to 75 fps drop using CCI primers...I doubt that anyone would notice unless you told them...I won't...:D

[okeybug]

I've used CCI for years but they are not as good as Winchester, Federal, or
Remington when using Dillon progressives. Dillon does not recommend them. I have used them in my 550 and although they work, there is usually more problem encountered. If your hand priming or using a press other than Dillon, they should work well for you. Sometimes we have to go with what's available on the market. Your other option is to order a large quality from one of the large reload suppliers such as Midway and order power and whatever you need one bill and pay just one hazardous shipment fee that way.

[RODS]

Thanks for the info.

[The Bushmaster]

RODS...There is nothing wrong with CCI primers...I have been using them for over 20 years and have not had one fail me. They are just not as hot as Winchester primers which I also use. My chronograph shows me that they are just a little cooler by 25 to 75 fps. That's all...:scrutiny:

[spook]

I haven't used CCI primers for years since they don't run well through my Dillon 550. On my last trip to the range several guys I often encounter there were complaining about misfires with CCI primers. This is second hand information and I have no knowlege of their loading equipment or procedures.

[.41Dave]

Yes, you can substitute with CCI. I use Winchester and CCI primers interchangably all the time, and have never had any problems.

[scrat]

i have been using cci200 large rifle primers. last weekend out of 150 rounds i had two that did not go off. I simply pulled the hammer back again. pulled the trigger and then they fired. really has me thinking though. might have to change to winchester primers.

[jeepmor]

CCIs are the hardest to touch off. I've had a few not fire in my 45, but those rounds were also suspect that I did not completely seat the primer FWIW.

A second strike has always done the trick. Never had any issue with Winchester primers, I prefer to buy them now if I have the choice.

[The Bushmaster]

Two problems cause primers not to go off. Not seated completely and weak hammer or striker springs...:scrutiny:

[strat81]

Hmmm, I've had a few failures to ignite with CCI small pistol primers. I thought I was doing something wrong since I am new to this, but :scrutiny: :scrutiny:

Methinks I'll try Winchester after I run out of the few thousand (:banghead: ) CCI I have now!

[scrat]

same here.

[BruceB]

I might be one of the lucky ones, but I doubt it..

After using hundreds of thousands of CCI primers over the last four decades, including fifteen years of running them through my Dillon 550, I have had ZERO complaints about the quality or reliability of the CCIs.

I load 7.62 NATO and 9mm in quantity on the 550, and both sizes of CCIs run just fine through the machine. I have no hangups or misfeeds that amount to anything, any more than the odd random (and rare) foulups with any other make.

I bought about 8,000 Winchester Large Rifle primers a few years ago at the Big Reno Show, and that batch was seriously undersize....I could push some of them into the pockets of NEW Winchester cases with my fingers! Never had a problem like that with CCIs.

A considerable number of my CCI-primed loads were fired in Arctic winter conditions when we lived in Canada's Northwest Territories, at temps down to the -40F degrees area. Again, no problems...but I made very certain that the guns were cleaned DRY, and left that way in super-cold conditions. I recall a morning when I test-fired an AR-180 (.223), using a forty-round mag which I'd fully-loaded and stashed six months before just for a reliability test like this. I put the rifle and mag outside in -45F weather and left them there for six hours. Then I popped the mag in, worked the bolt, and the little rifle fired flawlessly through the whole forty rounds. CCI primers supplied the spark. I was impressed with the whole outfit.

Don't be misled by "Internet wisdom". TRY THINGS YOURSELF! Too many stories get told and then repeated again and again, until most folks "just know" that such-and-such is the Gospel Truth. Based on MY personal experience, CCI makes damned good primers. They wouildn't have stayed in business for however many decades it is to date, by making substandard primers. I use mostly CCIs by choice, and no, I don't work for them.

[The Bushmaster]

I will say again...CCI primers have people problems not manufacturer problems. They work just fine. I have been using them for over 20 years and have had NO problems with them...:rolleyes:

[Grump]

Do a "combat tune" to your revolver so the hammer spring is so weak that the hammer pulls back on less than 2 lbs pressure (trigger held back), and that's the only way I personally know of to "make" CCI primers "misfire."

Worshipping at the altar of light trigger pull in honor of the false gods of "it will shoot more accurately with a "good" trigger" is the true defect here.

And CCIs have always run just fine through my 1980s-vintage Dillon. The only reason I went Winchester was because they were the first to be found after the Klinton-era primer shortage.

[Ala Dan]

I have gone back to using Federal primers exclusively~! ;) :D

[The Bushmaster]

Well Ala Dan...That's one way to stay out of the argument...:D

[teombe]

I've only used CCIs in my 550. Never had a problem with the feeding mechanism. If you have a misfire with a CCI primer, you're likely using a non-stock gun OR you haven't tuned your primer seating cup so that they seat properly.

Oh, as an added bonus - they don't go off when you sneeze at them.

[Walkalong]

I used to use Federal, then I switched to Winchester, but only because they come in smaller boxes and take up less space.

Both brands have never failed me.:)

[fordman650]

Well i'm new to reloading and haven't loaded any rifle yet but have loaded bunches of shotshells. We started with cci and out of 200 we had four miss fires,switch to winchester and haven't had a miss fire in over 20k.just starting to load rife so i did buy winchester primers but after reading i will try cci again to give them a fair chance.

I really enjoy reading all the post in this forum being a newbe i have learned a lot here thanks guys

[azredhawk44]

I've heard that CCI primers are better for ball powders and Winchester primers work best on extruded stick powders. Don't know if its true or not, but if ball has a higher ignition temp than stick, it would make sense.

I shoot whatever is available in handgun primers... I haven't noticed a difference in reliability or accuracy between either.

In rifles, I use winchester primers for 30-30 and CCI primers for .308 since I shoot an M14. Don't want a slam-fire and CCI's are a bit harder.

[scrat]

angeles ranges did a test on primers a few months ago. The reloading shop was the one who did the test. Exclusely the order was federal being the best, winchester next cci last. Under different but equal conditions. Federal primers were the best primers.

[Ben Shepherd]

Walkalong-

That's the only drawback to the federal primers. Several thousand take up several cubic feet of storage. Lucky me, I have plenty of storage space.:D

[Walkalong]

Interesting. I can make space.:D

Since I ran out of revolver rounds in .38 Spl & .44 Spl. using Federal primers and lead bullets loaded years ago and reloaded them recently with Winchester primers and plated bullets I got some bigger ES & SD's. (pretty big too) I don't yet know if this was the primer or the fact I loaded plated bullets with a light taper crimp in place of lead with a medium crimp. I may just not have the powder just right yet. I will find out shortly though. It happened with 700X and N320, both of which can give very good ES & SD's. :)

I just ordered some 180 Gr. WC bullets from Penn Bullets to try in the .44 Spl. along with the Rem 180 Gr JHP's it likes. I would have gotten a heavier bullet if they made one in a wadcutter.

[Ben Shepherd]

Walkalong-

I've found primer switches to give me different velocities, but not really wide ES numbers.

A weak crimp, on the other hand, will give me wide ES numbers on a consistant basis.

[Walkalong]

That, or not quite enough powder is what I am figuring it will be, but I will find out soon. One load of the 4 preliminary loads I tried that day had very good ES & SD. It was one of the 158 Gr. loads which would have better case grip just due to area than the 125 Gr. bullet and more weight resistance as well.

It was two downloaded .357 mag loads and two .38 Spl. loads. :)

[Ben Shepherd]

Walkalong, one thing besides accuracy and velocity that I'm concerened with when choosing a powder:

How's the case fill volume? Why?

1. If it pretty much fills the case, no chance of a double charge.
2. If it fills the case, powder position sensitivity is greatly reduced.

Lazy? Maybe. But it sure beats the heck out of worrying about the above 2 issues.:D

[Walkalong]

I like those two things as well. One reason I like 700X is its pretty bulky and fills the case well. I wish more powders were light colored like W231 and AA# 2.

[Walkalong]

Went back and started doublechecking everything today. Some of the Berry's 125 Gr. HP's measured as small as .355 :eek:

No fricking wonder they had big ES & SD's. I should have caught that when I loaded up a small batch to try, but did not. The couple I measured before starting were .357.

The .355 ones would practically slip down into the expanded case with finger pressure. The crimp was not the problem, there was almost no neck tension.

I am very dissapointed with these bullets. I have had excellent luck with Berry's bullets in .45 ACP. So far all the Berry's 158 Gr. HP's are right at .357.

I switched from Raniers 125 Gr. FP for this trial. I had good luck with them.

I am going to call Berry's and ask them about this. :banghead:

[Ben Shepherd]

Sounds like they mis-boxed/mis-labeled some 124 gr 9mm stuff maybe?

[EZred]

I recently (yesterday) had an experience with CCI 550s where a number failed to fire in my older Colt, even with double strikes. I re-ran these loads through newer Taurus Tracker, and had 100% light up, suggesting that the hammer strike in the old Colt is probably light. I had not previously used CCI pistol primers, but have used several thousand small rifle primers without any failures or any other problems.

[CZ57]

An easily correctable problem, EZred! Glad you checked it out. Go a couple of pounds heavier, or even more with a Wolff replacement. You won't notice a difference in SA and I doubt you will with DA, either. Get the multi-spring pack and use a slightly lighter trigger spring if you do. Their springs are often smoother than factory, even with the higher weight rating.;)

[Walkalong]

Sounds like they mis-boxed/mis-labeled some 124 gr 9mm stuff maybe?

Yes it does, doesn't it, but they aren't. They look about the same, but you can tell them apart with the naked eye.

I have some Berry's 124 Gr. HP's. They measure .3555 to .356 by .548 to .549.

The Berry's .38 124 Gr. bullets I had trouble with are .355 to .357 by .541 to .542.

The hollow point in the .38's is about .156 at the mouth and about .245 deep.

The hollow point in the 9MM is about .148 at the mouth and about .240 deep.

They are not mixed in 9MM's, just undersized .38's.

[jibjab]

I've heard that CCI primers are better for ball powders and Winchester primers work best on extruded stick powders.
Winchester's primers are made to work with Winchester's powders, this makes sense. Different primers work better with certain powder types :confused: I think so.

[distra]

I have used CCI, Winchester, Federal and Magtech for my .45, 9mm, and 38spl and rifle loads. They all seem to work fine for plinking and IDPA matchs. Magtech primers are readily available locally. I have not chrono the rounds, but accuracy is fine for what I'm doing.

[Walkalong]

Started new thread, kinda hijacked this one, got off topic. AC

[gezzer]

In few 100,000 rounds loaded in the last 20 years in handguns I have had only 10-15 failure to fire. Found problem was contamination of the primers MY FAULT.

Rifles, I have no idea I use Federals for them.

[Handgunr]

This topic is an age old kick around on many boards....


Well, after eon's of reloading using CCI's, and some fond memories of doing so, I started having misfires with not only their handguns primers, but their small rifle primers being used in the .357 Max Contender, their large rifle primers (also in the .35 Rem. Contender), and before you blame it on the T/C's, some good bolt action rifles.

I'm very meticulous (anal) when I reload, especially when working with primers, and they're never touched by hand or otherwise. My brass is prepped, primer pockets are cleaned, everything humanly possible is done to make things perfect, especially for hunting loads. After several FTF's on game animals that were (in my opinion) trophies, I got mad enough to find out why.

Yep, I know what you're thinking......light hammer hits...?
It could be the problem in some cases, and was the first considered, but I had new hammer springs in stock and changed them out many times just to try it. My springs were all stock factory springs, and of all the primers used, the CCI's failed in most caliber's the majority of the time "if there was a failure to fire".
Linear bolt rifle springs are the "acid test" if stock, and if a primer fails with one of them, and hasn't been contaminated and was seated properly, if it fails to lite, it's not a light primer strike.

Like I said, I use to love them.....and I'd still be using them if I hadn't run into this problem, and knew that my handloading practices weren't at fault. I'm usually one of those guys that blame myself first for anything that goes wrong, so no, I did a lot of research before I came to the conclusion regarding not using them any longer.

Bushmaster,

I will say again...CCI primers have people problems not manufacturer problems.

I would say they have both.............

Bruce,

I bought about 8,000 Winchester Large Rifle primers a few years ago at the Big Reno Show, and that batch was seriously undersize....I could push some of them into the pockets of NEW Winchester cases with my fingers! Never had a problem like that with CCIs.

The Winchester's were probably fine, the CCI's were oversize.......try the Winchester's in new brass.

I've been here before, and rather than quit a brand that's giving me troubles without really knowing why, I contacted CCI's Tech Dept. a few years back and the day I called I got a "knowledgeable" Senior Rep. on the phone to discuss my problems with the primers, rather than just plain wondering why.
I told him that I seat many of my rifle and single shot pistol loads by feel to make sure I can physically "feel them seat". I use my Lee Auto Prime for that because I get the best feel with it.

I told him that once I have a failure to fire, and the primer has a decent pin hit, I retry it, and most of the time it fails on a 2nd strike. Rarely does it go off a second time.
I reiterated the age old complaint folks say "CCI primer's are harder than the others" and "is that true ?"
He said, "no, the cups are the same hardness as any other brand", and all components are made "in house".

"But, he said, our cup tolerances are up on the higher side of the manufacturer's allowable spec's. Meaning that their primer's cups are larger in diameter "across the board". He gave me the spec's and I jotted them down at the time, but like I said, that was a few years ago.
As I spoke with him, still picking at the hard primer cup theory, I speculated that maybe the primer nickeling process could create a harder surface, or material thickness, hardness etc., he was very honest and said that he has heard the hard primer complaint many, many times over the years, but felt that the larger diameter cups were being used with brass cases where the primer pockets were running a little tighter than some and not allowing the anvil to "arm", or the primer to seat properly. This was speculative on both our parts trying to figure out my specific problem with them.

Like I said, I seated by feel, and I could feel the base of those primers seat, but some still failed to go off. Not a drop of oil touched them, nor my fingers.....nothing. The temp & humidity in my shop is regulated, so that wasn't it.

The Tech. stated obviously that a high primer, or one that wasn't seated properly would more likely fire on a 2nd hit, as the first hit causes the primer to seat.

After hanging up, and dissecting a few primers that did fail to go off, I contacted that same CCI Rep. back.

It was determined that my failure to fire issues were different in that the primer cup, due to the larger tolerances, when seated in certain types of brass, was inadvertently swaging the primer cups down and fracturing the priming compound.

I don't seat my primer's hard, and he understood that. He said that it didn't matter, and just the mere fact of seating the primer normally in a tighter pocket can cause the priming pellet to fracture. Not all the time, but randomly.
Once the priming pellet fractures, there's absolutely nothing that will make that primer go off. Once fractured, he said, "it crumbles into the powder charge, and renders the primer useless".

I switched my brands to Federal Match, and Winchester, and after several thousand rounds I haven't had a problem to date......not one misfire, or failure to fire in the last 6-7 yrs.

Bushmater & Bruce........(not flamingly)
If you're not having problems with the CCI's then fine. I was once an avid user of them also, but now can no longer afford to take chances of missed game and other opportunities by using them any longer. I was so "brand specific" back then, that I "went the route" to find out why.

This was what I found out........so I'm passing it on...

Take care,
Bob

[Walkalong]

I might be doing something wrong, but I have never had a FTF with Federal, Winchester, or Remington primers. I have, however, never used a CCI primer. They are not common around here. :confused:


It was determined that my failure to fire issues were different in that the primer cup, due to the larger tolerances, when seated in certain types of brass, was inadvertently swaging the primer cups down and fracturing the priming compound.

I don't seat my primer's hard, and he understood that. He said that it didn't matter, and just the mere fact of seating the primer normally in a tighter pocket can cause the priming pellet to fracture. Not all the time, but randomly.
Once the priming pellet fractures, there's absolutely nothing that will make that primer go off. Once fractured, he said, "it crumbles into the powder charge, and renders the primer useless".

This does make sense.

[Handgunr]

Walkalong,

I wanted the real scoop on what was going on with them, as they are probably the most widely available primer on the market for reloaders. CCI was very "up front" about their tolerances, and based on what they said, and heading me in the right direction, I was able to figure out why I was having trouble.

It wasn't anything I was happy about, other than the fact of realizing the root of my troubles.

Federal and Winchester primers are harder to come by around here, and with Federal running the military contracts, their primer's availability is hit & miss at times.

I have had better luck with accuracy in rifle loads using the Federal Match though, and in some cases the Winchester SR primers. Remington primers aren't very common around here and for me to get them, I'd have to drive an hour one way to my bulk supplier.

Take care,
Bob