Semi-Auto "Condition 3" carry


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mhl
March 6, 2007, 10:13 PM
I have no need to carry cocked and locked, and feel pretty good about "Condition 3 - The chamber is empty and hammer is down with a charged magazine in the gun."

For range practice, does anyone know the proper "military" procedure for drawing and racking. By military, I read somewhere the Israeli troops carry this way; how do they do it? Any special tips or tricks?

This is just for fun and practice at the range, so no recommendations on how I should carry please...I don't even carry! There has to be something/more to this technique than the obvious.

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GunNut
March 6, 2007, 11:24 PM
Just guessing, but i'd draw the pistol with my strong hand and at the same time grab the slide with my off hand, racking the slide while coming on target.

But really if you're going to carry a 1911 or BHP, you are doing yourself a huge dis-favor by not carrying the gun as designed.

longeyes
March 6, 2007, 11:40 PM
The Israelis reportedly do this, no?

Do they end up with the pistol over on its side, slingshotting the slide back?

Nomad, 2nd
March 6, 2007, 11:46 PM
So what are you going to do when one arm is hurt or busy...

I susgest you take a class using condition 3...

I'd bet you'll change your mind.

-The Israelis did that due to MANY different pistol types. This standerdised training...

Kevinch
March 6, 2007, 11:54 PM
This is just for fun and practice at the range, so no recommendations on how I should carry please...I don't even carry!

For range work you keep the chamber empty, keep the mag out & action open (with the slide lock) until you are ready to shoot.

When ready to shoot insert the mag, rack the slide & have at it.

If you don't finish out the ammo in the magazine while shooting keep the gun pointed down range, drop the magazine, then rack the slide to empty the chamber & keep the action open with the slide lock.

Not quite sure what you mean by "just for fun"....:scrutiny:

tbtrout
March 7, 2007, 08:09 AM
to explain in simplicity without photos, the USMC procedure for a Con 3 1911 is strong side draw with weekside hand in front of stomach. As you raise and push the pistol forward the weekside hand grasps the slide and the pushing with the stronngside racks the slide to chamber a round, then you assume a solid grip. it is quite easy to do with practice. In order to qualify we had to go from Con 3 to a double tap in 1.5 seconds with a flap holster.

Charles S
March 7, 2007, 08:26 AM
In order to qualify we had to go from Con 3 to a double tap in 1.5 seconds with a flap holster.

Please provide documentation of that.

At 7 meters a typical basic IPSC course time for a draw from a competition holster cocked and locked is 3 seconds.

http://www.ipsc.org/psguide2.htm

Experts will be considerably faster with a draw time of around 0.8 or 0.9 at 3 yards and a split of 0.12 or so. On a really fast day an expert should be able to do it in around 1 second at 3 yards. I don't know what kind of times at military qualification distances, but I would bet the time would climb to around 1.5 sec.

I would love to see anyone who could go from a flat holster with the handgun in condition 3 and shoot a double tap on a target at military qualification distances and do it in 1.5 seconds.

I personally would have trouble consistently matching that time with my 1911 in my carry rig. Blade Tec IWB on a 1 1/2 Wilderness instructors belt.

Mad Magyar
March 7, 2007, 04:44 PM
"This has been discussed numerous times!"
So has "caliber wars", "Help me decide on a 9mm when I really narrowed it down to....."
It doesn't make it any less topical than the others. I've repeated this many times as referenced earlier: there is no documented proof of anyone being killed due to a time factor in Cond. 3....If pistoleros would focus yellow/orange while in CCW instead of being oblivious to their surroundings the miliseconds would be negated..Panicking while fumbling with disengaging a safety can be just as catastrophic....Practice is the great equalizer...;)
The "ambush theorists" always assume there is no time to jack a slide, or your off-hand somehow has been paralyzed/mutilated, etc...Give us a break....The weapon schools are so heavy in this "macho-BS" it's laughable....Sometimes, safety needs to be factored in, ask some of the older G.I.'s who because of so many AD's had to have their policy reevaluated.... The bottom line is this: there are plenty of "closet" Cond. 3's out there...
"I am not an expert." Neither am I......:)

jehu
March 7, 2007, 06:01 PM
Or you could get a H&K P7M8 and carry cocked at will, Fast!:uhoh: :eek: :what: :evil: :neener:

Charles S
March 7, 2007, 06:57 PM
.....

12many
March 7, 2007, 07:52 PM
MHL, I am the same as you. I don't want to store a pistol with a chambered round. The local small shop guy who sold it to me did not try to convince me to carry or store it in a manner I was not comfortable with. It is wrong for others to convince you to store/carry in a manner you are not comfortable with. It would be different if you were in combat or a LEO.

He showed me how to rack the slide as it is being brought out/ up. He was damn fast at it and it did not seem to slow his removal of his gun from his holster and reach the point of aim.

Basically, as he was lifting the gun with his shooting hand he had his other hand on the slide and held the slide while he forcefully extended the gun with the trigger hand to the aim position. His slide hand was also extended then and after he released the slide and the slide slammed shut, his slide hand was available to defend or use a two hand grip.

I practice it at the range by having the gun at my side and a full mag. with nothing in the chamber, so I have to rack the slide to chamber a round.

AndyC
March 7, 2007, 08:21 PM
I normally carry a 1911 .45 cocked and locked - but in Iraq, I carried a BHP in condition 3.

Different environment, different threat, but it's funny how things turn out ;)

mhl
March 7, 2007, 10:30 PM
:banghead: It is hard to have a basic discussion without being drafted into full-scale combat in here. If I ever do decide to carry (in the woods) and pop a can, I'll check for injuries first and be sure the can is not drawing down an AK on me first.

You other guys, I'm not trying to insult you, but I asked a simple question and get answers that don't apply, like "You'll be sorry and get yourself killed if you do that". I specifically said I DON"T CCW, IT'S FOR THE RANGE! What would I be doing with wounds at the range? Probably asking for refund of my dues!

Condition 3 exists, it's not illegal, and what I am after is some expert advice like the "push don't pull" to get me on my way. Not where to take a class or how to target shoot ABC's or how to stitch wounds while roll across the floor while emptying 2 mags at terrorists.

I'm not mad, but amused at the "we have covered this before" reply by those can take any question and twist it into the "same conversation" before they even consider the original question.

Mad Magyar
March 8, 2007, 07:25 AM
MHL, you are probably more rational than the rest of us....I just get carried away when anytime Cond.3 is brought up, it's dismissed with an air of contempt....Good shooting to you.....:)

tbtrout
March 8, 2007, 08:12 AM
I do not have any documentation for our qualification, just the knowledge this is what we had to do to graduate.You could try looking up MCSFB Pacific. This is the internet, a lot of people lie, some people do not. I am sure there are a few people on this forum that have done some impossible feats with firearms and some that say they did. Take it with a grain of salt and carrry on.

obxned
March 8, 2007, 10:47 AM
If it works for you, that's fine. I'll carry with a round in the chamber and hammer decocked.

MudCamper
March 8, 2007, 01:26 PM
I'll carry with a round in the chamber and hammer decocked.

For some firearms that's fine, like most DA/SA semi-autos, but for a 1911 I think that is very dangerous.

HammerBite
March 8, 2007, 09:21 PM
This is just for fun and practice at the range . . .
In that circumstance I'd say condition 3 is just fine.

fattsgalore
March 9, 2007, 05:55 AM
I only condition 3 on these new fangled striker fired weapons, Glocks and such. But normally carry condition 2; conditon 1 isn't the best in my opinion.

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