What happened to the 10mm???


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17poundr
March 9, 2007, 06:30 AM
I wonder when looking at ballistic charts, that the obviously greatest all rounder from the 'normal semi auto ammo', is the 10mm, and yet, it has only a fiew manufacturers both in the ammo and guns that fire it... I belive that the 10mm was thought out intentionally to be the 'next generation replacement of the 9mm parabellum', but somethign happened and it didnt catch on, exept in some swat like organisations in Europe, who took to the Heckler & Koch Mp-5 made for the 10mm...

But otherwize it became an endangered species.
Also, what is kind of funny is that Smith & Wesson basically took the 10mm, made it a bit shorter, and out came the .40cal S&W!!! Now this one has been very succesfull, and why not? It's a good bullet... But the 10mm is better!

Now, as I see it America has been in the nostalgic 45apc 'thing' for a couple of years, and as it starts to wear off, there is new opportunities to really look at ammo, I for one do not understand why the NATO countries havent taken to the 6.8mm rounds specially developed to make a follower for the .223rem/5.56NATO. I understand that as many NATO countries are involved in war at Afganistans and/or Iraq's jihhadi fields, so it isnt the time to change ones ammo... But the change is shurely coming, it would be dumb not to, even though special forces of US tried new 75grain extra long range ammo in their Socom m-16 rifles, and pushed the 'very accurate' boundary from the normal circa 300 meters to about 700 meters, how much this had to do with the new ammo, and how much with the gun is unknown, probably a bit of both...

But, in the handgun, it somehow makes me sad that the US special forces are going back to the 45apc, as there are more modern rounds out there, do not get me wrong, the 45apc is a great round, no question, and so are all the other classics, the thing is that NEW ammo has been developed, and it's by far better! Put that together with new guns, and guns in general will start to have better performances.

Think about the Socom, having become more or less the new gun for the US Army, but as it now fires 6.8mm ammo, it's range is now about 800 meters, as all the new rifles have somekind of special zoom sights...

Or in handguns, the army, and cops, and regurlar citizens packed new guns from the major manufacturers, taking full advantage of the 10mm's powerful, straight ballistic qualities... Civilians and cops, defend themselves with rounds that 'mushroom' on impact, but if miss, they are of frangible qualities and thus pretty much stop onto the face of the brick wall they have hit...

And, for those into practical I do not have to tell of the qualities of the 10mm, as this is the only reason why the rounds and guns for them are still arround...

So, why not the sig357? I hear somebody saying, indeed, indeed, now there is a modern good bullet that is similar in performace, the sig357, is a .40s&w case with a 9mm round on it, thus giving the extra gunpowder to push the bullet into faster realms... Probably the speeds are similar to the 10mm, so the only difference is that the sig357 fits more rounds into a clip, but get's smaller wound tracts, hitting power is pretty similar I belive... The 10mm going a bit further before what I call the 'ballistic droop', happens.

As you know, rounds usually go pretty straight, until that critical loss of speed has started to take over with ever increasing co-operation from gravity, in other words, they go straight, start to bend down a bit, and then cometh the great downward bend that happens rather fast, but do not be fooled, in ww1 and to some extent ww2 when people were really good with their shooting, this was taken advantage of, the maxim mg's then in use with all sides, were sometimes set behind a hill, and pre-measured so that they knew exactly where their bullets would start to fall down onto which area, and one guy would act as a forward observer, and give the sign, the enemy would be in dire straights when bullets started to whizz as if from nowhere, and they still had enough power to kill men, so there.

Anyway, I wish that more of the big gun manufacturers would make 10mm bullets, and design good double stack clips for it. Also the 357sig is imho much more worth the trouble than a .40s&w, which again, I think is a good round, but there are better imho.

And as for the 45apc, we know it will never go away, I'm only dumbfounded that all these fancy gunmakers, like Kimber for example are such traditionals, that they still turn out the otherwize wonderfully improved, and beautiful model 1911, but cant bother to put that respecful attitude into increasing the clip from that ridiculous 7 round thing that many a multi thousand dollar 1911 still comes with! It's completely incomprehencible to me, it's like saying, please put these model 1936 brakes in my new BMW, I just love the feel of them... I mean, the bullets and propellants ect for the 45apc have gone up, and so forth...

Think about this, the 45apc and 9mm parabellum have been with us from before ww1 unless I'm off with a couple of years with the 45.

Now, we can have model 1911 guns, firing 10mm ammo no probs, and still honour the venerable old vet... And anyway, if I had to choose a consealable 'panic self defence' gun, I would go probably for wartrhog's wonderfully compact, but angry little 45apc spitter! (That is if I lived in a country where getting licences isnt from hell, and using a gun for self defence doesnt get you into jail pretty much automatically, be thankful for your rights, oh my US brethren). :o EU gun laws are just too tight, it's insulting that a guy who was trained and exelled in shooting guns in the national service he did for his country, isnt even allowed a 22 plinker licence! And, no I do not have a criminal record. Think about it.

But for my four or five inch barrel (why dont they ever marry the two and make just 4 and a half inch barrels, and satisfy both needs at once)? :rolleyes:

I mean, now that ceramic barrels are just coming into the fore in more expencive SVI type guns 'for example', with threads that start halfway in the barrel! And then only with a very low turn rate and accelerate at the end to produce amazing spins ect... I belive that as guns get more and more sophisticated, we should follow up by taking the most modern ammo to go with them, and get the best possbile results!

YOURS TRULY: Mr Poundr.

P.S. please give your oppinion, learning (I wish that any erronious info would be corrected, for I am but a student in this great hobby of ours), or just pictures, links ect, then please let rip like a 6.8mm fmj boat tail! and share!

Here is something that everybody should be aware of, very expencive custom guns, that use some of the newest tech in their guns, there is even s gun builder, that a Finnish gun mag used to produce the most coolest hangun I have ever seen in .40s&wcal!!! It cost 'only' about four thousand dollars...

But, the thing is that there is no other like it on this planet as far as the article writer and his buddy who ordered the gun knew about! So, if you really want a supercool gun, here is: http://www.sviguns.com/

This other place is also good, If Kimber 1911s are mercedes benzes of 45apc's, then I guess these are kind of Rolls Royce's! Here check it out: http://www.nighthawkcustom.com/detail.aspx?ID=2#

If you enjoyed reading about "What happened to the 10mm???" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Seven For Sure
March 9, 2007, 07:41 AM
I have both GLOCKS made in 10mm. I own a 3" and 6.5" S&W 610. I have a EAA Witness Compact in 10mm and I have a Razorback 1911 in 10mm. Nothing has happened to 10mm except this:

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/index.php?cPath=21_25

Whirlwind06
March 9, 2007, 08:08 AM
I don't think the .45 "thing" will ever really wear off.
It has been around for so long and is a proven round. I see more pistols chambered in .45 then there were 10-15 years ago.

Seems like when I was first old enough to buy a handgun (20 years ago), If you wanted a .45 it was a 1911. Now just about everybody sells a pistol in .45.

I think the 10mm will be like the .41 mag. Never super popular but never quite going away either.

GRIZ22
March 9, 2007, 10:36 AM
I for one do not understand why the NATO countries havent taken to the 6.8mm rounds specially developed to make a follower for the .223rem/5.56NATO.

The easy answer to this is the billions of dollars it would take to do so. Testing, new weapons, ammo, and training would be very, very expensive. Adpopting a new weapon and cartridge is much more difficult than running down to the gun shop and putting your money on the counter. The 5.56 and M16 platform are not perfect but work most of the time and nothing is 100%. Even parachutes have a failure rate and they are a lot less complicated than a weapons system and the enemy it's used against.

redactor
March 9, 2007, 01:30 PM
Is to put an end to a conflict at arm's length. The .45 ACP has a good record in doing just that. It is unclear to me why we need to move away from something that works well, just because it isn't modern. Seems to me that the 3.0 litre per flush toilet is pretty modern. ;)

kokapelli
March 9, 2007, 02:19 PM
You might ask the FBI why they stopped using the 10mm.

ball3006
March 9, 2007, 02:25 PM
so, the gun itself needs to be more robust aka heavier, ammo is more expensive aka big bucks, and the gun pounds you harder aka kicks, which means you will not shoot it as much recreationally to become proficient. The fact of the matter is, it is not how powerful the cartridge at sending the bullet downrange faster, but where you put the bullet aka accuracy. A heavy gun wears you out and a hard kicking gun may give you a flinch. More spent on ammo means less beer in the fridge.........chris3

shooter1
March 9, 2007, 03:57 PM
I just checked-------------------nothing has happened to my 10mms! :neener:
str1

Zundfolge
March 9, 2007, 06:18 PM
You might ask the FBI why they stopped using the 10mm.
Because affirmative action made them hire too many women and nancy boys that couldn't handle the recoil :evil:



10mm is going through a renaissance lately ... lots of new guns chambered in it.

varoadking
March 9, 2007, 06:30 PM
What happened to the 10mm???

It's quite alive and well in my gunsafe - S&W 1066 and 1086...

If Kimber 1911s are mercedes benzes of 45apc's, then I guess these are kind of Rolls Royce's!

I wouldn't put the Kimber that high up on the food chain - not by a long shot. I like my Nighthawk...I like my YOBO Colt too...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v22/varoadking/DSC03084.jpg

Alan Fud
March 9, 2007, 08:31 PM
I'd love to see Kahr redesign the Tommy Gun in a 10mm. :)

Myself
March 9, 2007, 09:48 PM
I'd love to see Kahr redesign the Tommy Gun in a 10mm.

AO actually chambered the Thompson in 10mm during the time the FBI was fooling around with the 1076. They are very rare, I do not know how well they work.

Ohen Cepel
March 9, 2007, 10:00 PM
The 10mm is a fine round for the correct usage. I dropped a 300lb+ wild boar with one shot from it.

It might be a bit too much when loaded full for defense use. However, it can always be loaded lighter if that is your need.

I think it is a great round that got caught in up politics before it had a real chance.

It will be in my collection for a long time since it meets/exceeds my needs. I love it for what it is.

warriorsociologist
March 9, 2007, 10:04 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=206247

17poundr
March 18, 2007, 03:30 PM
First of all thanks for Seven For Sure for a good ammo site!

And very many thanks for the exellent pictures of guns that made me drool, let me guess the upper one on the left side is the Nighthawk? It really makes me wish I was in the US and could buy even a used Colt 1911 asap (I never meant to imply that I thought the 45acp is a bad round, I found that shooting it for the first time on an old Colt at my gun club, gave me the second best result of any first time gun of all my life, the first one being a revolver 'colt python', and this was a fixed sight from 25m)!

Also, thanks for trying to make things more organized mr Warriorsociologist!

The ammount of 10mm threads, must mean that people are into the round, I remember reading that it was a serious design to replace the 9mm, and a certain ad campaign by a certain 'cartell' pushing the .40 cal dwarfed the 10mm, in a way as if the 45gap would have really took off and made the 45acp very much forgotten (a bad example but the only one that came to mind, and the 'fact' of the .40 being responcible of 'pushing' out the 10mm was not my oppinion).

As one guy remarked that the Thompson smg was calibrated for the 10mm, I belive that the special forces Heckler & Koch 10mm that is still in use or at least an option for special ops, proves that it was taken as a good calibre.

By the way, in the ww2 US carabine there was a bullet that was like a looong 45.magnum (I have only seen pictures of it, and that's what it looks like to me, please remember I'm an EU, we have 9mm's and 7.62s)!:rolleyes:

Anyway, as that gun is one of my dream guns (yep, I am not embarrased to admit that sometimes I dream of the gun collection I would have If I lived in the states)...

Does anybody know of a table that shows the actual hitting power of FMJ bullets of medium loads, and then the same for expanding bullets, making the most usual calibres (you know 380, 9mm, .40s&w, 10mm, 45 apc and gap, and mag44 and one or all of the .50cal's (are there three handgun one's going now)???

And the same for rifle rounds, I have a book called Shooters bible, and it has truely full blast tables, but they are too good, and the automatic table at : http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ballistics/

That is a useful thing to go through, but it doesnt show all in comparison, so that one get's the idea of the real difference in hitting power, also some of the graphs have too much info, and one is left in confusion, but with say, up till 50meters (the maximum general distance for handguns imho, and with the old fashioned sights, one will be a very good shot, or lucky to hit anyway, well depends on the gun, but I'm talking of 'regurlar guns' not some 9inch barrel monster made for hunting or sports), this would be good with the calibres mentioned above, give or take a couple, as I said, calibres like the before mentioned 41magnum are unkown to me, and I have shot most of the popular western, and a couple of the old Eastern block calibres in handgun...

Thanks for the imput, and please send me pics to drool on!
Your truly: Mr Poundr.

HorseSoldier
March 18, 2007, 03:43 PM
I wonder when looking at ballistic charts, that the obviously greatest all rounder from the 'normal semi auto ammo', is the 10mm, and yet, it has only a fiew manufacturers both in the ammo and guns that fire it... I belive that the 10mm was thought out intentionally to be the 'next generation replacement of the 9mm parabellum', but somethign happened and it didnt catch on,


Basically what happened was that it was a hotter round than a lot of people were comfortable shooting (recoil, slower follow up shots, etc.), and came in a format that mostly limited it to single-stack platforms, or double-stacks with very big grips (i.e. Glock 20).

sansone
March 18, 2007, 03:47 PM
my buddy has the colt delta elite in 10mm.. beautiful weapon but quite a handful. my guess is only large males can shoot them:p

17poundr
March 18, 2007, 03:48 PM
Here are a couple of well known good guns, and one that is a complete mystery to me, anybody know of this gun?

I mean the Sphinx ofcourse...

As I could only put three pics the following will be for more rare, but defenately guns of my dreams...

17poundr
March 18, 2007, 03:54 PM
Here some more of my dream guns, these are more of the top range In price, although a bit over a thousand dollars for a good STI is worth it I belive, but havent tried it, only read the accolades...
Apparently one of the 5inch barrelled double stackers from STI was so good that one could barely feel any recoil from a .40cal round! And I know that's good for I felt it on a Glock.

As for the SVI-Infinity guns, a local gun mag got one made and it cost about 4000 Euro, but it had all these latest stuff galore, and it had fired near to 5000 rounds without any serious cleaning without any problems. Good going huh?

P.S. I touched on the subject of the 6.8mm, and ofcourse if it does become a new calibre, this will not happen while wars are being fought, this is clear. Also the 5.56mm NATO, has been getting new ammo, like the 75grain round that the special forces have used in their SOCOM 2 gun, with outsanding perofmance to about 700 meters, instead of the 300-400 meters of normal AK-AR type guns...

Now, so as not to add to confusion like seemed to happen with the multiple 10mm threads, I wonder if there is a 'new round-Socom-6.8, kind of thread or threads going arround here? If it's an already totally chewed up topic then I do not wish to do nothing but read some. So if you know of any threads please put a link.

Yours truly: Poundr.

P.S. and pic's of any of your 10mm guns (or that ww2 carbine, is it the m-1)? Please, please put them for me to add to my window shoppers picture collection on my pc :)

TexasRifleman
March 18, 2007, 04:06 PM
Nothing happened to mine. You kinda scared me there for a minute :evil:

http://homepage.mac.com/jayc67/1911.jpg

Dobe
March 18, 2007, 04:10 PM
On the 10mm vs. .45 ACP, one reason that the .45 ACP is regaining popularity is the recoil and muzzle blast (or lack of it). The .45 ACP works so well even with military because it is so big. The cartridge is a relatively low pressure round leaving the shooter with a moderate amount of felt recoil.

Most of the soldiers and Marines are in service for somewhere around three years. In order for Uncle Sam to get his money's worth, these young men (now young men and women) must be trained quickly enough to make the time in service vs. training + mission work viable. The average GI just off of streets can more easily handle the recoil of a .45 ACP than the hotter 10mm.

Personaly, I have found the .45 ACP easier to shoot than even a 40 S&W round.

10-Ring
March 18, 2007, 04:30 PM
1st - I don't think the 45 thing will only last another couple of years :rolleyes: That one's a staple in the industry! ;)
2nd - 10mm basically suffered PC knee to the nads. :scrutiny:

briansp82593
March 18, 2007, 04:32 PM
Personally, I have found the .45 ACP easier to shoot than even a 40 S&W round. +1000000000000

Mandirigma
March 18, 2007, 04:42 PM
let me guess the upper one on the left side is the Nighthawk?


Thats the YOBO colt. Notice the 1/* (Translates to: One ass to risk, or One ass to risk for the thin blue line) The one on the bottom right is the Nighthawk, looks like it was built without any slide rollmarks.



Anyhow you like good looking guns? www.louderthanwords.us

17poundr
March 18, 2007, 04:43 PM
Truely beatiful! If only, if only... Sigh... What do you mean got you worried? Didnt get that one... :confused: :o

Well, I do have good pic's, how about having these for your long guns in 6.8mm???

Cosmoline
March 18, 2007, 05:06 PM
What do you mean got you worried? Didnt get that one...

Your thread title is "What happened to the 10mm." The joke is he was worried something happened to his. And the point is the 10mm is alive and its "genetics" are well preserved. It's offspring, the .40 S&W, is taking the place of the 9x19 for most LEO's stateside.

10mm semis have a small but loyal following up here in AK. They don't seem to stay on the shelf for long, that's for sure. Everytime I think about buying one it's gone when I get back with money. I ended up going with a .41 Magnum blackhawk, which has similar ballistics in its "light" police loading.

Diamondback
March 18, 2007, 05:16 PM
Although I find the .45ACP more friendly for my needs...I have nothing but the highest regard for a pistol round that hits like a ton-of-bricks...and then some. While the Forty-Five will never fade, the usefulness of the 10mm is undeniable. Of course..... I am one to see the utility of the .40 S&W and 9mm Parrabellum under particular scenarios. No one caliber will ever serve everyone, all the time, under every condition.

- regards

zahc
March 18, 2007, 07:28 PM
How many 10mms fit in a 1911 pattern gun without extended magazines?

.cheese.
March 18, 2007, 07:34 PM
You figured out yourself what happened to the 10mm.

The FBI was underloading the 10mm due to too much felt recoil (or so some complained). Eventually it was just a natural step to eliminate the unused space in the 10mm with the underloaded version and move to the .40SW, which is just a shortened 10mm (same bullet in the 180-grain and below, shorter case).

I don't think there are many who will say the .40 is not powerful enough to get the job done... and so - that's what happened.

All my guns are in .40. I might get a full 10mm some day, but so far .40 works for me.

ugaarguy
March 18, 2007, 07:48 PM
How many 10mms fit in a 1911 pattern gun without extended magazines?
According to the Kimber website their 10mms have an 8 round standard capacity.

Peter M. Eick
March 18, 2007, 08:47 PM
As a long time 10mm fan, I have concluded that the 10mm is more cartridge then MOST shooters can handle WELL. Since it is easier to blame the cartridge then get some training or practice it will always be a "thinking man's cartridge" where you have to be willing to put the time and effort to shoot it well.

This is why the 40's are doing well and the 45acp's do also. They are about the limits of MOST shooters.

varoadking
March 18, 2007, 08:51 PM
As a long time 10mm fan, I have concluded that the 10mm is more cartridge then MOST shooters can handle WELL.

I would submit that much has to do with the platform. A S&W 1086 turns the 10mm round into a pussycat...

Peter M. Eick
March 18, 2007, 09:10 PM
Granted.

Most 10mm shooters I see are using the 1911 format.

With the Witness, the 10mm is another pop gun or even in the 610's.

44AMP
March 18, 2007, 09:12 PM
And as such is not a very good choice for a service pistol. Not because of anything wrong with the round, but because of what is right with it. And what is right with it is it's power. But power = recoil and big robustly constructed guns to stand up to shooting it.

This is too much for alot of people in this day and age of LEO positions being open to all. Back in the days when State Troopers had to be 6' tall in order to be hired large frame .357 Magnums (and later medium framed ones) were able to be handled by the majority of applicants. The size (and power) of the gun was not too much for the general run of officers.

Today (and for the last couple of decades), by law, smaller statured individuals and females must be allowed their place in the ranks, and many of them are not capable of qualifying with large heavy recoiling handguns. Many even have trouble with the grip size of double stack 9mms.

The .45ACP, the 9mm, and the .40 S&W provide the best balance of size and power for the broadest range of LEOs, so that is what has come to dominate the market.

Overpenetration is the bugaboo of the liability types, and the 10mm has too much to make them happy. Recoil plays a large factor in rapid second shots, and the 10mm has too much for a lot of people to be happy with it. Long range (for a handgun) performance in not a consideration for Law Enforcement (that's what rifles are for), so the 10mm gets nothing for that.
Ammo cost (especially for smaller departments) is a factor, and the cost of the 10mm works against it there.

The .44 and .41 Magnums are not (considered) suitable for LEO use, too much blast and recoil. The .357 Mag is on the upper edge of usefulness for the same reasons. The .357 Sig provides nearly .357 Mag power, and comes in a 9mm size package, so it finds favor with quite a few, even though it has the bark and recoil to make it a handful for many officers.

Something you may not realize, being in the EU, but the average US police officer is not as familiar with their handgun as the average recreational pistol shooter. We do it for fun, they do it because it is part of their job. Many of them only fire their guns once a year for qualification.

While there are many individuals in LE that are firearms enthusiasts, the majority are not. For them the handgun is just one more tool they have to carry as part of the uniform, like the baton, radio, handcuff, pepper spray, taser, etc, etc. Now the poeple in SWAT, and other special (elite) groups tend to have a higher percentage of firearms enthusiasts than regular patrol officers, but it is not a hard and fast rule. There are many police types (of one kind or another) who never touch a gun outside of their official duties.

Those are the kind of people who find the 10mm (and others) "too much gun", and they make up the (numerical) majority of officers.

Because of the political climate in the EU being strongly against private ownership of handguns, I would expect the situation with LEOs there to be similar in nature, but much wider in scope.

You won't find it on a board like this one (for obvious reasons), but contrary to the popular myth outside the US, not everyone here is "gun crazy", or skilled in their use. In fact over half of the population either doesn't care, or is actively working to outlaw the guns the rest of us have.

kokapelli
March 19, 2007, 10:06 AM
As a long time 10mm fan, I have concluded that the 10mm is more cartridge then MOST shooters can handle WELL. Since it is easier to blame the cartridge then get some training or practice it will always be a "thinking man's cartridge" where you have to be willing to put the time and effort to shoot it well.

This is why the 40's are doing well and the 45acp's do also. They are about the limits of MOST shooters.
.
I'm thinking, I must not be thinking, because I don't shoot a 10mm!
http://www.binary-kuwait.com/images/thinking_man7.jpg

shooter1
March 19, 2007, 08:34 PM
I am a fan of the 10mm. I think they are a hoot to shoot! I don't get the "Thinking Man's Cartridge" thing tho. Anyone that can handle a .40 or .45
will have no problem with the 10mm.
str1

envonge
March 20, 2007, 12:55 AM
I tried a .40, .45, and 10mm today and none of them really have any recoil to them.

I will say the 10mm has abit of a piercing noise to it.

shooter1
March 20, 2007, 08:32 AM
envonge,
If you shoot large bore magnum revolvers from time to time, none of the service calibers have much preceived recoil.
str1

gandog56
March 20, 2007, 07:56 PM
I don't know. I love my DW Razorback. I heard the FBI story and wonder if it's really true or an urban legend. My 10mm does not kick as much as my .357 Sig. Maybe I'll have to reload some 10's close to the max to see the reason.

atblis
March 20, 2007, 10:32 PM
You have to be careful distinguishing actual recoil from perceived. 357 SIG is loud, and to most seems to recoil more than it does.

Mortech
March 20, 2007, 11:16 PM
Hopefully this next payday one will find its way to my place . I'm going for the full size EAA Witness polymer framed version with 15+1 cap . All this 10mm talk has given me the JHTHs something seriously for a 10MM , I figure a pistol chambered for this round will make a nice hunting while at work pistol instead of the 357 Mag revolver I now carry .

TexasRifleman
March 20, 2007, 11:20 PM
I heard the FBI story and wonder if it's really true or an urban legend.

Oh it is true, I remember when all that was going on. I was so happy because I thought I'd have a better ammo selection.

I never understood it either, I don't see the recoil as anything worse than other comparable rounds. I bought a few boxes of the original Norma load back in the 80's and it wasn't even that outlandish.

The story was that small framed agents, especially female, just couldn't handle it but I will always believe that was because of the frame size of the gun rather than the round itself.

bakert
March 21, 2007, 01:22 AM
Dang, I thought what happened to the 10MM was they just sawed it off some and started calling it short and weak.:uhoh:

Stevie-Ray
March 21, 2007, 02:34 AM
AO actually chambered the Thompson in 10mm during the time the FBI was fooling around with the 1076. They are very rare, I do not know how well they work.Damn, would I love to get ahold of one of them. I always wished Marlin would come out with a camp carbine in 10, and that never even happened.

My Delta Elite is still here and still chomping away on the PMCs when it's not eating my reloads.

busy_squirrel
March 21, 2007, 02:44 AM
Personally, I have found the .45 ACP easier to shoot than even a 40 S&W round.
But less fun or challenge.
All my guns are in .40. I might get a full 10mm some day, but so far .40 works for me
+1 and when I do, it'd be a pretty gun, not a compact CCW.

GARY1911A1
March 21, 2007, 07:42 AM
Hello Mortech. I have a Polymer Witness in 10MM coming in this week hopefully I won on GunBroker. It's in blue instead of wonderfinish which I wanted, but maybe I'll get it hardchromed later.

vanfunk
March 21, 2007, 11:19 AM
In a military application where FMJ ammo is the standard, there's simply nothing the 10mm can do that the 9mm can't do 95% of. 10mm is a great round for the sportsman or defensive handgunner when HP ammo is used, and most loads equal or exceed the performance of the vaunted .357 magnum. But again, 10mm FMJ isn't going to be more effective than 9mm, at the cost of increased weight and recoil. That doesn't make the 10mm "bad" by any means, but it's not a good choice for the military.

Both 9mm and .45ACP have been around for more than 100 years not because they're trendy, but because they work. I have a love affair with the .45ACP going back 20 years, but the fact is that the 9mm is a better military sidearm round given the strategy and tactics of our armed forces. What might be advantageous in the private sector may not be in the military, and vice versa.

Truth is, no military force has ever lost or gained anything of any significance because of their choice in sidearms.

vanfunk

17poundr
March 24, 2007, 03:09 AM
Thanks for the clearup cosmolina, and diamondback, I agree totally as the 9mm is THE round in Europe, although the .40 is coming fast!

I was wondering that if some people think that the 10mm is a bit too powerful (and I have seen ballistic charts, that succer just flies and flies straight, with a retention of hitting power that is truely awesome)!

So, I came up with the thought of how many carbine's are being designed for .40mm? I know of that one from HI-POINT, now a carbine would absorbe the shock, and be great for the 10mm's range too...

Now, how does the 10mm compare to the round used in the m-1 US ww2 carbine? Couldnt the makers of the modern M1s start to look at one chambered for the 10mm???

As I probably mentioned before the special anti terrorist groups have had H & K make a version of the mp-5 in 10mm! Sounds like great gun to me!!!

Also, revolver adaptabilty is clear and hasnt been utilized, why I wonder???

Indeed, aside of large STI or EAA guns with double stacks and highly evolved versions of the 1911, I belive that making new models, such as a self defence, anti bear kind of short Carbine would be a great thing, and one could experiment with heavy bullets and +p+ loads, as a Carbine can be made strong and thick enough to take the extra pressure, I can see serious military usage in this kind of a weapon...

God I wish I could have a go at a EAA '10cal'... sigh... :rolleyes:

Anyway, some eye candy from my 'collecion of a non ammended person'.

Yours truly: Mr Poundr.

Soybomb
March 24, 2007, 06:40 AM
I don't think there are many who will say the .40 is not powerful enough to get the job done... and so - that's what happened.
Perhaps you haven't met the millions of people who think that anything other than a .45 and a bad guy will catch it and throw it back at them. :neener:

45auto
March 24, 2007, 07:58 AM
Easy answer :D .

Too much recoil for repeatable shots which are often needed with pistol calibers, because they are all "weak" compared to rifle calibers.

Depending on what you believe or read, larger pistol calibers are better than smaller, all things being equal. So, the 45 is a controllable larger caliber that works better than hyper velocity smaller calibers.

If you don't believe that, then you can make a good case for the 9mm at higher velocities, more capacity, smaller grip frames, etc, etc.

The 10/40 is in the middle trying to be both...which is why the "debate" will never end IMO.

IMHO, the 10mm is the easiest way to get near "magnum" power into a 1911 frame, just for example. It's a nice caliber and a good one for a reloader.

17poundr
March 25, 2007, 04:27 PM
The people who say that you need at least a 45apc for self defence are crazy, the destructive power of a 9mm is killer class! A serious slug to be shot with. One only has to see the ammount of murders, suicides ect done with 9mm's. Special forces still use 9mm often, as the aiming is more important here, as I belive it's the training that counts not the calibre so much...

Or, as one writer put it, If given the choise between meeting a gun attack with nothing and a .22lr pistol, I would choose the 22 anytime! Also, there are considerations as to where you are going to use the gun, having super extra high powered bullets zinging in the house where there are kids and not so thick walls, perhaps a lighter gun is preferrable??? I know, it's all been said before, just reminding...

Still, for a practical-outdoors calibre, the 10mm is very interesting...

shooter1
March 25, 2007, 05:56 PM
The people who say that you need at least a 45apc for self defence are crazy, the destructive power of a 9mm is killer class! A serious slug to be shot with. One only has to see the ammount of murders, suicides ect done with 9mm's. Special forces still use 9mm often, as the aiming is more important here, as I belive it's the training that counts not the calibre so much...
:rolleyes:
str1

Kitt
March 25, 2007, 09:30 PM
My hands are fairly large and I have always liked the Para Ordnance pistols.. so when the P-16 Limited 40S&W came out I bought one...Then I found out how easy it was to transform it into a 10mm ...got the barrel reamed by Hunters Custom, 22lb Wolff spring and a CP shock buff. This is a 16 + 1 1911 package that is 100% reliable and shoots very well...I have firearms that come and go through my gunsafe but the 10mm Para is a keeper. I also just got one of the Dan Wesson 10mm CBob pistols and it looks real promising.. one of the best made pistols I've seen and loaded with extras for under a thousand bucks. Got my eye on a Glock 20...stay tuned.

BigG
March 26, 2007, 12:12 PM
The 10mm did what it was designed to do and then abandoned.

Why it happened in the first place:
The 10mm took the heat off the FBI managers who blamed the issue 9mm for the 1986 Miami firefight. Once their bacon was out of the fire they went back to business as usual, acquiescing on a round the squawkers in the ranks could handle, 40 S&W.

I still have a couple of Colts, but they are similar to the 41 Magnum, everybody claims to want one but when they are available, not many actually buy one.

Here's one:
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i115/BigG_photos/Picture19079.jpg

varoadking
March 26, 2007, 09:59 PM
Nice piece, BigG...

Model 624
March 26, 2007, 11:09 PM
They should have kept the original round from Norma that used a 170 grain bullet. Less recoil, but energy right there with a .357 Magnum. I've still got two case that I hoarded. Lucky me. :neener:

DWARREN123
March 26, 2007, 11:48 PM
I think a lot of organizations are scared of it due to it being big, bad and mean and go with the .40 S&W instead. Too much power for an individual is what some think.

17poundr
April 6, 2007, 08:08 PM
Aside a EAA 10mm Witness, I would love a full size xd in 357sig, as one gunwriter put it, the Glock has a more angled grip, so that most shooters get their shots high in a hurry, where as the Springfield XD, has a more 'straight' grip and it suits novices and more experienced shooters better for a 'straight on hit', very important on the second round of a double tap, as ours with very low recoil 9mm FNs in the army were fired as fast as possible from ten meters, and normally the first shots cluttered in a hand sized clump in the center, and the second shots were in a Friszbee sized chaotic pattern out to the high right, which would have meant a double tap of first shot in center chest, and second into the shoulder if good, more to the chest if very lucky and out of bounds if unlucky...

So, the XD is my choise for a more serious kicking load, and the sig357, is a great round exept that it is so high velocity that barrel wear can become a problem... Wish I could do a order of one of those 'do your own' Infinity arms gun, in sig357 with the ceramic barrell...

And, have a carbine like the ones that are real cheap (about 200 dollars new), in 9mm and .40cal, I would make one stonger, and have 357sig rounds spitting out! Or ten mm's!

Well, here are some pretty things to look at....

Mortech
April 6, 2007, 10:03 PM
Oh as a follow up , an EAA Witness didn't follow me home . A genuine S&W 1006 did :neener: ! I finally got to shoot it today , unfortunately the only ammo available locally were CCI Blazer 200 gr TMJ :uhoh:

TexasRifleman
April 6, 2007, 10:14 PM
CCI Blazer 200 gr TMJ

Actually the 10mm Blazers are not bad.

I shoot them a lot. It's the only Blazer loading I will buy but in 10mm they do very well at the range and both my 1911's feed them with no problems at all.

17poundr
April 8, 2007, 04:00 PM
Anybody know, what ammo there is for the 10mm, are there any of the 'fancy' brands like Corbon, and other expanding ect rounds???

Also, are the frangible tungsten rounds legal in every state in the US and how do they differ from a regurlar expanding hollow point??? And are any Frangible's available for the 10mm? (that would be a truely mean mf to catch into one self)!
:eek:

MikePGS
April 8, 2007, 04:22 PM
Anybody know, what ammo there is for the 10mm, are there any of the 'fancy' brands like Corbon, and other expanding ect rounds???

According to their website, the company doubletap was founded just for the 10mm (though they make other calibers as well). Heres a link to their 10mm rounds http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/index.php?cPath=21_25 and actually someone on this forum posted a picture of what a 135 grain 10mm doubletap round did to a wet phone book http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=267655 . Believe it or not, that crater is the entrance wound.

sigma 40ve
April 8, 2007, 08:19 PM
The only thing that happened to 10mm today at my place was the resizing and flaring of 450 cases, tomorrow the primers, powder and bullet seating. Getting ready for GSSF outdoor shoots this year.

obxned
April 9, 2007, 12:45 AM
The 10mm is not as good as a .45 for SD, and not as good as a .357 or .41 or.44 for hunting. If you could only have 1 gun for both hunting and SD, it might be the best choice. However, I would still stick with the .45 - really hot factory loads are available that make it quite suitable for taking any game that the 10mm could handle.

Camp Cook
April 9, 2007, 02:27 AM
I purchased my Colt Delta Elite 10mm new in 1987 and started reloading for it right away.

I now also have a Glock 20 and a 18.5" barrel for my T/C Contender carbine and just last week I ordered a compact Glock 29 10mm and yesterday made an offer on a Kimber Eclipse Custom 11 10mm...

The velocities and performance that I am able to achieve with this round makes it the most versatile standard production semi-auto round in existance...

It can do everything that all the others can do and everything that they can't...

I have absolutely no interest in the 45ACP because when you start with the best you just can't go back to the rest...

yongxingfreesty
April 9, 2007, 04:30 AM
you need a 10mm, here is mine

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/yongxingliang/DSC00005-2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/yongxingliang/DSC00007-1.jpg

17poundr
April 12, 2007, 07:11 PM
THANKYOU!!! :D :D :D GREAT PIC (drool, aagh, why cant I have one, aagh :confused: )... Ahem, yep, I see the 10mm as a bullet in the making, firstly, a straight up plus + 10mm with a heavy bullet, into a custom made carbine, possibly like the one I'll put into the pictures, it's an ex Warsaw Pact block variant, of the basic AK system, but looks like it could do a good carbine... Anyway, I think so... Then there is that US made carbine for 9mm and .40cal, that takes ten round clips into the hand grip, but apparently can take a Glock double stack too, that would mean, that thickness wize the clip would take probably 10+ rounds of 10mm, and with a bit more scandium-aluminium enforcing for the enhanced round, and a nice X-3 or holo/laser aiming system, this could be a hundred meters plus shure hitter!!! And, down some medium sized game I recon...

Also, the second idea is for military grade steel only, as even the sig357, which is a great idea, just take a .40 and neck it down to have a 9mm bullet on the end, and you get a very fast mover! Infact, much better than a .40 if using expanding ammo, the only problem is apparently that the high velocity makes the barrels wear faster than other bullets like the 'normal' 9mm, or the .40 and 45apc...

So, my idea for a great military carbine round is a similar thing like the sig357, but instead of putting the 9mm bullet onto the .40 cartridge, which is only a short version of the 10mm anyway, why not put it onto a full length 'proper' 10mm?!?!

Now THAT would be a nasty fasty! I bet if given proper barrel material, this round would shoot true for hundreds of meters, and depending on the shape of the bullet, it would have great military, hunting , and personal defence usage... Infact, even guns like those Texas made STI guns, with the five inch barrels, made beefy could handle probably about a 12round of 10mm357, or perhaps a better name for this round could be 'The 9mm Magnum' ???

If I had a little shop, I would go for it and start making the guns, and bullets!!!

Anybody, want to get a very enthusiastic, army background guy, with both legs on the ground, but eyes fixed on the horizon, sence of humour and not afraid of work???

Send me a pm! :)

Anyway, here are a fiew good candidates for handling the '9mm Mag'...

As usual I put the pics as attachments, I cannot do the pic showing with the text, and I guess you guy's and gal's can click onto a pic just as well...

Camp Cook
April 12, 2007, 07:49 PM
Is the 9 X 25 the round you are dreaming about???

Here's a link at Glock Talk in the 10mm reloading section...

http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=228796

glockdude
April 12, 2007, 09:17 PM
My glock 20c is awesome. plus with a little help from some custom barrel manufacturers and u can shoot 40cal and 357sig with only changing the barrel. I have a 9mm, 10mm, 45, and 357mag. I have killed Texas whitetail with my 10mm and 45, and with the 10mm gun with the 40cal barrel. equal results from all. just with a lot more kick from the 10mm. and thats with factory compensation.

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