BEST 44 MAG AMMO FOR BEAR DEFENCE

[mktvr]

im going to alaska this june for the salmon run. as you know where there are large numbers of salmon you can count on grizley bears. i dont want to become a snack for a big grizley while im there so i just picked up a S&W 629 in 44 mag. I was wondering what the best ammo to carry to stop that bear where he stands. I have a buddy that said to epoxy a ball berring inide of the hollow point of the bullet. anyone try this will it effect the bullet?
thanks

[Leanwolf]

MKTVR - "I have a buddy that said to epoxy a ball berring inide of the hollow point of the bullet."


Your buddy has been watching too many movies and episodes of "CSI."

If you don't reload, you can buy some heavy .44 Mag. ammo from Buffalo Bore. Or Garrett's ammo.

L.W.

[Steve H]

I would stay away from hollow point ammo and go with something with A BUNCH of penetration.

[Cosmoline]

Big, heavy, hardcast, flatnose. Buff Bore, Corbon or other premium manufacturers make excellent loads. Make sure you use a suitable platform, not some snub nosed titanium job.

[rolltide]

Unless you are shooting a caliber that can reach it and are lucky enough to hit the brain or spine, forget stopping a charging brown bear with a handgun. It is a 1 in a 100 or 1 in a 1000 proposition. FEEL LUCKY????

I emailed JJ HACK a question about handguns for large dangerous game defense. He guided for black bear and mt. lion in the pacific NW many years. He guided for Alaskan Brown bear many years. He presently guides in Africa where he has been for many years. HE KNOWS HIS STUFF FROM 100's OF FIRST HAND EXPERIENCES WITH THE MOST DANGEROUS GAME IN AMERICA AND AFRICA.

My question to him is underlined. His response follows.


I realize a handgun is not ideal for the purpose, but for very large dangerous game like lion, cape buffalo, brown bear or moose, what handgun and load would you recommend for last ditch protection (i.e stopping a charge and/or shooting an animal that is on you)?

Stopping a charge is not gonna happen on the animals listed using a handgun so eliminate that from your inventory of choices! As I said above it may happen once or twice with a lucky CNS hit but it's an absolutely non functional weapon to depend upon. It will give you a false sense of security and put you into situations you would not otherwise have gone into unarmed. With a handgun you are effectively "unarmed" against those animals.

I have had a bear on me and been chewed at the same time I had a 44 mag ruger redhawk with 300 grain garrett hardcast bullets. I never was able to get the gun out of the holster to use it. Every Time I moved the bear bit me again and again. A brown bear lion or Cape buffalo will crunch you to bits long before you could use it by your statement of "shooting something that's on you". It may work to deter the animal but your really pulling the auxillary rip cord at that point. I think anything starting with a .44 mag would be better then nothing or a sharp stick but it's likely too late by the time you pull the trigger.

I remember reading an article offering a reward for any information proving somebody survived an attack by shooting a bear with a handgun after the mauling had started. To this point I have not heard of anyone collecting the money. The biggest problem with a handgun is that it's in a hip holster under your coat and you are on the ground with an 800-1200 pound bear that is chewing you up. Your hands are instictively busy fending off the bites and your hands get chewed pretty fast with defensive wounds. It's very difficult to open your jacket or pull it up high enough to get at the gun and then unsnap the holster to remove the gun( I know this first hand). In that amount of time your limbs will be ripped loose and your head crunched. Unless you have that gun in your hand at the instant of the attack I really see no functional use. Maybe in warm weather without a coat on, but even then you're in a bad way depending upon a handgun for help.


That said, carry the largest handgun you can and practice with it until you are proficient. The big S&W X frame guns have turned a couple of charging brown bears in AK according to the only reports I have read where these guns were actually used on CHARGING brown bears. Theses were NOT CNS shots. They are still a gamble as any handgun is in brown bear defense. If the 44 mag is all you have, use the heaviest hardcast bullets you can get into the gun.

Buy yourself a good pump 12ga if you don't already have one and load it with Brenekke 3" Magnum Black Magic slugs (NOT foster type slugs or the Brenekke 2 3/4" Black Magic.) That gun and load combination will give you a fighting chance if you keep it close enough to use if the moment arises. What you really need to stop a brown bear charge is what most AK guides carry for the purpose, a 375 H&H bolt action or bigger. Go with a group and take turns carrying the long gun over your shoulder or in a tactical,cross chest sling, as you fish so that somebody within sight of you has a gun capable of stopping an angry brown. Still carry the handgun also. You may get lucky, and it beats throwing rocks.


BE SAFE and have fun.

Roll Tide

PS There was a recent case where 2 hunters were attacked by a bear and it was killed by one of them with a 44mag handgun. Form the report it sounds like it was almost certainly a spine shot, as the bear dropped in its tracks after one shot to the chest. So there is an instance where a bear was killed with a handgun after the mauling started. In Hacks defense, what I quoted from him was several years old and this shooting happened within the last few months.

[Cosmoline]

rolltide, I think your advice is better than this Hack guy's. He needs to do more research. Folks here have used handguns as small as 9x19's to stop brown bear charges. His problem was not being able to get to his weapon, which is also a problem with long guns. This is why the first order of business is having a firearm you can draw and fire FAST and having one you're very comfortable with. It's better to have a long gun as a primary defensive firearm, but don't fall into the trap of thinking you have to go out and buy some monsterous safari rifle or huge .500 S&W. You'll fare better with something you're used to and you can get to quickly.

The biggest problem with a handgun is that it's in a hip holster

THAT IS NOT A PROBLEM WITH THE HANDGUN! It's a problem with the HOLSTER. Get with the 21st century and use a chest/belly holster. Hip holsters were designed for 19th century horsemen. In addition to being hard to get to when you have a bunch of clothing and supplies on your back, they tend to ride heavy and put weight on the lower spine, causing back pain and hindering free movement. When hiking you want everything waist down to be as free and unencumbered as possible. That free movement is as important as a big firearm when it comes to avoiding trouble with the wildlife. Bear charges are rare, but moose charges are common. And you can't shoot the moose, you gotta be ready to run.

Long guns are also prone to being slung and impossible to get to in an emergency. Going cocked and locked and slinging the rifle barrel down across your chest with a quick release on the sling is one way to fix this problem. A backpack scabbard with a lanyard is another. The former works better for bolt actions, the latter with slab sided leverguns.

[rolltide]

Hey Cosmo,
Mr. Hack has killed and guided for more black bear, brown bear, and dangerous African game than most people would in 100 lifetimes. He currently used his 458Lott about 20 to 30 times a year in defense of life when his hunters make a bad shot on dangerous game or their party is surprised by a charge. He does it for a living every year, and has done so for many, amny years. HE IS NOT AN ARM CHAIR RESEARCHER. He has personally shot right at 100 black bears with a handgun, and has guided 100's of hunts on other bears including AK browns.

His credentials are impeccable. What are yours to make such a bold statement about him?

Native Alaskans have killed browns with a 22 (in the eye), and I have a collection of news articles where handguns were successfully used to stop Alaskan brown bears, about 4 (including the one you mentioned using the 9mm). Just because it happened once, doesn't mean the 22 or the 9mm are good choices for bear defense. Mr. Hack said "it may happen once or twice" which includes the situation you mentioned, but when you are talking about defense of life situations, you better not mess around. Mr. Hack does not offer careless opinions because he has faced 100's of life or death situations with nothing but a gun and the skill to use it between him and eternity. He continues to do so on a daily basis during season. How many such situations have the rest of us faced? Think about it!!!!!!!

Best Regards,
Roll Tide

[Bob M.]

44 Mag. 320 grain lead (Hard Cast) WLNGC from
http:\\www.grizzlycartridge.com. They come in 20 round boxes. $26.95 per box.

[Cosmoline]

Just because it happened once, doesn't mean the 22 or the 9mm are good choices for bear defense.

When did I say they were? I was refuting your "expert's" assertion that handguns were totally useless against a bear.

The aptly named Hack asserts:

Stopping a charge is not gonna happen on the animals listed using a handgun so eliminate that from your inventory of choices!

With a handgun you are effectively "unarmed" against those animals.

Well you yourself know of at least four times when it did happen. Remember, DLP shootings aren't well reported unless the shooter wants to tell his tale. Here are some examples of the "show and tell" variety that got some local press:

http://www.adn.com/outdoors/hunting/story/8632924p-8525255c.html

http://www.adn.com/front/story/5591480p-5522882c.html

There have been other handgun DLP shootings that get a paragraph or two and that's it. One of these days I should put together an inventory of them. And on top of this there are the vast number of large bears killed by handguns while hunting, either in de facto DLP or because it was a handgun hunt. If not claimed as DLP there's no reason for these to get reported at all. But that's another matter.

YOUR advice (to go in a group, stay aware, have a practical long gun and a backup handgun, etc) is great. But your expert seems to be one of these PH's who thinks anything short of a $2,000 magnum safari rifle will bounce off. He can come here and defend himself with that if he wants. But unless he buys one for the rest of us and hires us some gun bearers there's not much utility in the advice. And his assertion that handguns are useless against bruins is so wrong it makes me wonder how much hunting experience he's had. Col Wesson was killing polar bears with a .357 as far back as the 30's.

[ArchAngelCD]

You really shouldn't make double posts in more than 1 forum. I posted my answer to this question in the Revolver Forum.

[Smellvin]

Just try to remember that bears aren't fat, fuzzy VC stalking you in the bush. Most bears are very wary, if not outright scared, of people. Grizzlies won't attack you out of surprise if you walk around with bells tied to your legs or talk loudly to your buddies. If they're going to attack you after having been properly alerted to your presence (very rare occurrence), then you can be fairly certain that a firearm should be needed.

[Cosmoline]

Smellvin makes an excellent point. I've seen the big hind end of several brown bears jiggling away into the woods after getting wind of us while fishing (it *HAD* been a while between baths), but thankfully I've never been charged by one. In contrast, I've been charged many times by moose, including several times in the city. Once I was even stalked by a cow! She followed me for a mile, staying about twenty to thirty feet back and shooting me daggers with her eyes. I have no idea what I did to earn that.

[ArchAngelCD]

She followed me for a mile, staying about twenty to thirty feet back and shooting me daggers with her eyes. I have no idea what I did to earn that.
Cosmo,
That might go back to the "bath" thing!! :p :neener: :p

[Seventhsword]

www.garrettcartridges.com :D

[Cosmoline]

I've had women look at me like that before, and I learned long ago that innocence is NO excuse! So I just kept on running away.

Another hiker said she'd been doing this to people all week, apparently because a bear had taken her only calf recently and she was still in defense mode.

[rolltide]

Cosmo,
You must have forgotten to read the next sentence from Mr. Hack, even though I reminded you of it in my followup post.

You quoted:
Stopping a charge is not gonna happen on the animals listed using a handgun so eliminate that from your inventory of choices!

A more complete quote must include at least the next sentence:
Stopping a charge is not gonna happen on the animals listed using a handgun so eliminate that from your inventory of choices! As I said above it may happen once or twice with a lucky CNS hit but it's an absolutely non functional weapon to depend upon.

He never said it never happened at all, only that it was so rare as to be of little consequence in a real defenesive situation.

Also you must realize that killing an animal in a hunting situation is worlds different than killing an animal that is charging you and intent on doing you harm. You cannot begin to compare the two situations. Angle of presentation, speed of movement, stress on the shooter, need for immediate stop or turn are all vastly different in hunting versus defense situations. Mr. Hack lets you know what professionals KNOW they can count on in DEFENSE situations, use less at your own risk.

Carry the best you can, but know what the standard is by people who do it all the time, and understand the level of risk you take if you choose something less. That is about all a body can do.

Best Regards,
Roll Tide

PS Don't let them cow moose get you brother. :what:

[rolltide]

I also read another story recently, I believe it was here on THR, where a man helped carry a bear victim out of the woods. As he picked up this mans face off a rock and put it back on his head, he remembered how the victim had laughed at him just a couple weeks earlier for lugging a 12ga around when he fished. The victim was carrying a 9mm for bear defense. The victim survived, but paid a big price for carrying the wrong gun.

The vicitm was an AK resident.

Makes you think.

Roll Tide

[RNB65]

There isn't one. If you're afraid of bears, carry either a S&W 500Mag or a 12ga loaded with slugs.

[GCW5]

I carry 250 gr Keith (from Leadheads, St John, KS) over 21 gr H4227 with WLP primers. Runs 1,200FPS from my 3" 629. It's a hand full, but with lots of practice, not too bad.

I carry it in a El Passo Saddle Co. chest holster, keeps it up out of the way, yet easy to reach, with or with out a backpack.

[Plink]

Try www.garrettcartridges.com
Their heavy 330 grain Hammerheads really hold together well and have amazing penetration. Buffalo Bore makes a heavier bullet at higher velocity, but I haven't tested them to see how well they hold together. I've heard nothing but good about them though. I'd check into both and see if they meet your needs.

Personally, I'd want a big bore rifle, or shotgun loaded with solid slugs (not those hollow based attrocities sold to deer hunters) if I was going into brown bear territory. Marlin's little guide gun isn't a big hassle to carry, especially when you're no longer top predator, but prey.

[rolltide]

The Garrett 330 is too hot and too long for the Smith 44.

Roll Tide

[benelli12]

I dont think that your 629 can stand up to the +P(high pressure, only to be used in certain firearms) loads that Garret and Buffalo Bore make.

An alternative would be Double tap ammunition. This 44 magnum ammo is not +P, but gets you the +P power of Garret and Buffalo Bore. Here is a link to the 320 grain hardcast, at 1300 fps out of a 6.5" barrel. http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_35&products_id=118&osCsid=3c45e5363cf276f1034bf17c4c85f5dd

I have a box of these, and this is what I would carry for bear defense. And also, double tap ammo is ALOT cheaper than Garett and Buffalo bore.

[azredhawk44]

All these people suggesting 300+ grain ammunition from expensive retailers are neglecting to point out that close proximity point-of-impact raises as bullets get heavier. This is because the bullet is moving slower, and pushes against the handgun longer and more forcefully in recoil due to being inside the barrel longer.

This means that if you are practicing with 225 or 240gr loads that are light, but carry 300+grain monsters, your point of impact when trying to shoot as if you were accustomed to those lighter loads will be 3-6 inches higher even at 15 yards. That will take a well-practiced grizzly headshot and turn it into a miss.

Carry what you practice with, and practice with what you carry. If the bullet itself is a high-faluting XTP-megastomper-hollowpoint-solidcast-gascheck-wonderbullet that costs $5 each, then at least practice with an inexpensive lead bullet of the same weight. But use the same velocity and weight bullet so you know how it shoots, exactly.

[Cosmoline]

dont think that you 629 can stand up to the +P(high pressure, only to be used in certain firearms) loads that Garret and Buffalo Bore make.


This is a problem, and as rolltide noted the biggest Garrett and "+p+" Buffs are sometimes too long for the chamber of anything but a Redhawk or Super Redhawk. One solution would be the .41 Magnum, which is a notch narrower than the ".44" and allows a notch more steel. Paco Kelly makes this observation here:

http://www.lasc.us/TaylorPACO41Mag.htm

I know of no restrictions on Model 57 and 56 Smiths against shooting the heavy buffalo bores. Indeed they used a Mountain Gun to test them.

[rolltide]

If Grizzly Cartridges is still in business (their web site is down), i would use their Punch Bullets. These bullets (made by Belt Mountain) have a solid brass case that will not deform even it is hits heavy bone at hyper velocity. The only disadvantage is that it would probably run 100 or more FPS slower than the same weight hardcast due to more friction in the barrel than the lead rounds. Those Belt Mountain Punch bullets REALLY penetrate.

Roll Tide

[ArchAngelCD]

The Grizzly site isn't really down, they no longer have a seperate site and are now selling from here: http://www.bornhunter.com/StoreFront.bok

[rolltide]

Thanks ArchAngel,

Here is the round I would recommend for the 629.

305gr brass case bullet at 1100fps At very close range the lead hardcast can deform or fail due to impact velocity if heavy bone is hit. Most quality hardcast do not fail, but they can deform at the nose which limits penetration.

http://www.bornhunter.com/stores/h/hunter/catalog/44MagShort-b.jpg

These brass bullets WILL NOT DEFORM even when shot through 13" of live hickory.

http://www.gunblast.com/images/BeltMtn_PunchBullets/MVC-012F.jpg

[Cosmoline]

Also handy if you get attacked by live hickory :D

[grizz]

Arctic Ammo Company in Alaska (run by a guy named Ace Dube)

328g hard cast lead at 1400 fps. Probably too hot for a S&W though.

[thales]

*


I carry a S&W 329 and I don't want to hot-load it. For the woods in Alaska I like the Federal 300 gr Cast-Core at about 1090 fps. It's not unusually expensive and is available much more commonly than the "boutique" brands of ammo.


*

[Porter_Rockwell]

I thought I posted this yesterday, looks like it didn't come though. It talk about several of the cartridges already mentioned and ties it all together.

I'd still go for a shotgun with slugs or a Marlin lever action 45-70.

God Bless,

Porter

[12GA00buck]

I carry a 12GA with hardcast slugs and a can of bear spray. I wouldent mind having a .44 mag for when I dont feel like lugging the shotgun around. You've got plenty of good advice already, stick with hard cast heavy loads, buffalo bore, garret etc. Dont bother with hollow points or ball bearing gizmos, they wont penetrate deep enough.

Happy Fishing:)

[Shawn Michael]

I would love to try a hot load with a punch bullet for my s&w .500....can't find one anywhere! Love to see what kind of penetration I could get.

Would those bullets "mess up" your barrel?

Thanks

[rolltide]

The bullet jackets are just brass, they should not bother the barrel.

Roll Tide

[Shawn Michael]

Thanks. Looks great but for some reason none for the .500