[WebHobbit]

I sent my 640 J-Frame .357 off to S&W. I had requested a refinishing job as well as a tune-up/action job. Well they finally sent me an estimate via snail-mail (even though all my previous contact was through e-mail). I will type here EXACTLY what the letter says (spelling errors and all):



REFINISH, ACTION WORK
TURN BARREL RECUT BC&FC. (EROIDED)
*J FRAME 357 MAGNUMS ARE DESIGNED
FOR CARRY. STEADY DIET OF MAGNUMS
QUICKEN WEAR. RECOMMEND CARRY 357
PRACTICE WITH 38S. *

REFINSH COMPLETE GUN 166.00 166.00
LABOR RATE 5.00 85.00
FEDEX NEXT DAY STANDARD (HG) 14.00




:rolleyes:

Gee....if the all steel ones are designed for .357 "carry only" then what the hell are the alloy/scandium ones for, looks?

Maybe I should sell it and buy an SP101?

I guess I'm just too hard on a wee-little J-Frame, eh?


:fire: :scrutiny: :mad:

[Erich]

I can't say I'm shocked.

How many magnums have you fired out of the thing?

[WebHobbit]

I'm not sure...less than a 1,000 for sure...I'd guess maybe 400-500. Maybe 50 or so .38's.

The only problem the gun had as far as I knew was a bit of "spitting" here and there. Not real bad either.

If I decide to sell I'm not gonna do the repairs. Screw it! :cuss:

[Gary H]

Isn't this pretty much what gets passed on in all Ruger vs. S&W threads? Even my Mod 25 N-Frame in Colt is subject to frame stretching with heavy loads...not even Redhawk load levels. K-Frames get trashed in writing all the time.

I hope that selling it means an informed buyer.

[WebHobbit]

I hope that selling it means an informed buyer.

What does that mean? There doesn't seem to be anything wrong with the gun that affects safety or anything. It's still fairly accurate too.

[Gary H]

It means that you sent it in for refinishing and they suggested certain work. That is what I meant. If I were buying the gun, I would appreciate knowing.

[WebHobbit]

Well now that I'm starting to calm down a bit.......

(Sorry people)

Do you all think I should have the work done & continue to carry (and occasionally shoot) the gun or sell it "as is" and get an SP101?

The thing is NO other gun fits my hand as well as the J-Frame and I am quite fond of the little beast. I'm just really disappointed that it hasn't been able to handle the relatively "small" amount of rounds I've put through it. Also it does worry me a bit this talk of "turning the barrel".

If I understand this correctly they are gonna cut some off in order to fix the B/C up and re-do the forcing cone. Is this correct? If so won't I end up losing some barrel length here or is not enough to notice?

:(

[MR.G]

I have a 60 and a 649 J frame in .357. Have never shot them, but if I did and the forcing cone eroded prematurely I would be calling to demand a new barrel at no cost. Nowhere in the manual does it say not to shoot .357 in them. They didn't put .357 (carry only) on the barrel either. If they advertise that it is a .357, then you should be able to shoot that round in it. If it can't handle the round, then they should say so in the manual, and in their advertising.

[mec]

Not surprising. As far as trading for an SP101, I suspect that these can be shot out of fix too but haven't been able to destroy mine with a moderate amount of magnum ammo. The k-frames and js will shoot a very long time (indefinately as far as I can tell) with .38s and .38 :+p. the .357 Magnum, particulary when loaded full strength is quite a stressful cartridge. Smiths note that they will last longer when shot with .38s for practice smacks of honesty to me.

Expert obiter dicta to the contrary, regular practice with loads in the 15-20,000 cup range carries over into the results you will obtain when you switch to magnums.

[stans]

Strange, my 640 has about 300 rounds of 110 grain JHP Magnums through it and once it is cleaned up it looks factory new and is still tight.

[jdmb03]

S&W was referring to the fact that j-frames main purpose is to be used for carry and not as everyday target pistols. Maybe I'm slow, but I thought that was obvious.

[WebHobbit]

Well maybe I'm slow but I don't think 400-500 rounds in 5 years time is treating it like a "target pistol".

[Gary H]

So what does S&W say when you lodge that complaint? Maybe they will admit that this is much lighter use than is reasonable.

My dad has a Model 60 with a really nice trigger. My wife has an Sp 101 that has had a trigger job. The Ruger trigger is nice, but it still isn't an S&W. I guess you pick your poison. Like everything else, there are pros and cons. It would be nice if S&W would make people aware of these limitations prior to purchase. I think most folks that live their (revolver) life on the web are aware of these things, but the consumer should not have to find out the hard way. I'm not sure that those wary of hard use would expect this kind of result after 500 rounds in five years. I would think that many people put that kind of wear on a J frame. That is two boxes of .357 per year..not much. Many experts suggest at least that much practice per year with your carry load. You might have a good case to present to S&W.

[WebHobbit]

I didn't get the letter until I got home from work and it was too late to call. I'm gonna bring the paper with me to work tomorrow and call from there.

I'm gonna let 'em know how many .357 110s I've put through it and see what they say to that.

I just checked my paperwork and it says I bought this in 1996.

[Standing Wolf]

Sounds to me like Smith & Wesson is talking out of both sides of its mouth—still.

[surfinUSA]

I thought S&W had a lifetime warranty. Use of factory magnums in a magnum revolver should not void the warranty they should pay. Give then a call.

[JERRY]

well, what did you expect?
after all, there is a thread on here telling how the K frame cant stand up to magnum force,( though mine has ) why did you think the J frame could?

[Frenchy]

Hey Webbie,

A little different philosophy between here and the Smith forum. ;)

[Bob]

I sold off all but one of my Smith's and bought Rugers. I don't even want to think about how many rounds I have through my 101, but it's a lot. I've shot everything in it and it's never given me any heartburn at all. It's quite accurate and fun to shoot. I'd hate to spend what the manufacturer charges and not be able to shoot it. What a crock!!
Bob

[Tamara]

Apples and oranges.

The SP-101 was designed around the .357 Magnum cartridge. The .357 J-frame is a stretched .38 J-frame is a stretched .32 I-frame. You could always compare the SP-101 to a gun of similar size and weight, like a 686... (;))

[WonderNine]

Weren't the first SP-101's .38's....?

And I know the first .357 SP-101's were 125gr. only....

[CMcDermott]

The 110 grain 357 mag loads put the most stress on the relatively light J & K-frames - it's the quick acceleration of the light bullet. When this fast moving bullet hits the forcing cone of the barrel it "rubs" and erodes it. This is the purpose of the forcing cone, but the heavier 158 grain loads are moving much slower at this point and don't cause anywhere near the same amount of problem for the gun - your wrist is another matter. Yes Ruger's can take the punishment much better, but then you have to carry the extra weight.

As far as fixing it, they should only have to take the barrel back 1 thread, so you are talking less than a tenth of an inch and I doubt that you would even notice the difference.

[Rob96]

I always hear about the extra weight of the SP-101 when compared to the M640. Lets see SP-101 is 25oz, the 640 is 23oz. HUGE difference. You can keep your "S&W" trigger, but I'll stick with the SP-101. At least it is FULLY capable of firing the caliber that is marked in the literatur it comes with and what is marked on the gun. I say sell it, and get an SP-101.

[Frenchy]

You could always compare the SP-101 to a gun of similar size and weight, like a 686

Or at least a 66!

[WebHobbit]

Tamara --as others have mentioned the SP101 was NOT built around the 357 but rather the .38. I read in American Handgunner (I think that was the one) that Masaad Ayoob and a few others talked Bill Ruger into making a .357 version after custom smiths had already been reaming out the existing cylinders on a few custom orders.

[c_yeager]

Doesnt anyone else think that $160 is kinda pricey for a factory to refinish one of a its own guns? Ive heard numerous stories about companies providing this service free of charge. I mean wont a regular refinishing company do it for less than that?

[E357]

I'm glad you posted the prices. They seem a little high, but in todays world etc. etc.

I would save the $265 or so, sell the gun and buy a new Taurus 605 for $270-$300.

Elliot

[buzz_knox]

The original SP 101s were upgraded .38s. However, the company later redesigned the SP 101 for longevity with .357s.

[Obiwan]

Because Ruger overengineers all their wepons

They make great hammers

I have a 3" sp101 and it is a tank....heavy but darn accurate for a little(?) gun.

[glocksman]

The 110 grain 357 mag loads put the most stress on the relatively light J & K-frames - it's the quick acceleration of the light bullet.

Coincidentally, that's WH's preferred load.

And if I had to guess, I'd say he put 600-700 rounds through it in the time he's had the gun.

Me, I have a Centennial in .38 Special, and I'm wondering about the cylinder play. The cylinder moves back enough to almost double the gap between the forcing cone and the cylinder.

This one's had about 1000 rounds put through it, 300 of which were the +P 'FBI Load' or +P Hydra-Shoks that are my carry ammo.

Anyone know the factory spec for end play and cylinder gap on J-Frames?

[Ledbetter]

As my ever-more-faulty brain recalls, it is around .004-.007".

[TonyB]

I have an SP101 BECAUSE I want to shoot it!!
Inever bought into that "carried alot shot a little" axium.
If you're going to carry ,you BETTER shoot it alot.How else will you KNOW you can hit anything w/ it.
The SP is heavier,but I carry mine everyday,and you get used to it.
I had a S&W mod 38 airweight,and I didn't trust it to hold up,so I sold it.I may get one in the future,maybe.
Also I don't have enough money to own guns I don't shoot.Guns are MADE to be shot, IMO.:cool:

[Tamara]

I shoot the bejabbers out of my .38 J-frames; I don't know about y'all... ;)

[JohnBT]

"S&W was referring to the fact that j-frames main purpose is to be used for carry and not as everyday target pistols. Maybe I'm slow, but I thought that was obvious."

I am slow, but it's still obvious :)

Little gun and big bang means somethings got to give - sooner or later. I don't believe, for instance, that my 442 is going to last very long shooting +P lswchp through it. So be it - as the old saying goes - use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without.

John

[WebHobbit]

And once again I don't think even 600-700 rounds of magnum since 1996 is treating it as a "target pistol".

Do you? :scrutiny:

[Rob96]

If you are suppose to practice with what you carry, both gun and load, I guess that leaves the 640 out according to S&W. The gun is not up to the task.

[EJ]

GLOCKSMAN

Me, I have a Centennial in .38 Special, and I'm wondering about the cylinder play. The cylinder moves back enough to almost double the gap between the forcing cone and the cylinder.

That's prob cyl endshake-- relatively easy to fix--
The yoke liner can be peened with the right tools -- ten minute job, or places like Brownells & Power sell a selection of washers to place between the end of the yoke inside the frame channel -- easy to do--

It should be fixed as it will only get worse and damage to your bbl at the forcing cone can result as well as leadspitting and eventual jamming between the cyl and bbl--

[MR.G]

EJ
I see that they list "cylinder bearings" and "yoke endshake bearings" to eliminate excess play. Which do you use to correct the cylinder movement problem glocksman explained ?

[EJ]

For the prob described--endshake--(loosness) of the cyl itself and play btw the cyl and bbl--you would need cylinder bearings--
They (or spacers) fill the area that has worn down between the end of the cyl and the yoke--

The hollow shaft of the yoke that mounts the cylinder needs to be stretched by peening or the slack taken up by these spacers or "bearings".
When you dismount the yoke from the gun and slide the cyl off the yoke -- this is the area you are interested in-- between the hollow part of the yoke where the cyl is mounted -- so the "bearings" should have a flat - doughnut shape to them.
I've never used them --but my understanding is that these cyl endshake kits come with pretty good instructuions.

I was an armorer and we had an insert that was nearly the inside diameter of the hollow portion of the yoke-- This was inserted to suport the yoke and a tool (a flattended non-sharp copper tubing cutter) was used to peen the yoke thereby extending it by forcing the metal to flow outward-- Worked great and fast -- but you need the centerpin//yoke liner support tool/piece to do it without bushings or "bearings".

Yoke endshake is when the yoke is loose where it attaches at the bottom of the revolver-- Older revolvers(Smiths) just needed a larger Yoke screw to fix this or a little hammer work to the end of the "mushroom" attachment area on the lower portion of the Yoke.

If the cyl is loose when the gun is closed (Forward and back motion--not rotational) then it is probably cyl endshake--

If the cyl and yoke assembly is loose when you open the cylinder then it is yoke endshake--


Long post but I hope it clears up you question--

Didn't want to confuse the issue --

The problem that <GLOCKSMAN> described is allmost certainly Cyl endshake and needs Cyl Washers of "Bearings"

[WebHobbit]

So what does S&W say when you lodge that complaint? Maybe they will admit that this is much lighter use than is reasonable.

I called today and spoke to the guy who gave the estimate. I told him that I have only 500 magnums through the gun & I am the original owner.

He reiterated that the J-Frames "are for personal protection & are not intended to take to the range and shoot magnums a lot". I told him that I have carried it a LOT more than I have shot it.

He asked me what the 500 magnums were & I told him mostly Winchester 110 jhps. He said "that's a law-enforcement type round...it's pretty HOT!".

I asked him if he thought going to a heavy slightly slower round like the Winchester 145 grain Silvertip would be any easier on the gun and he said "yeah, those might be a little better".

He said he will see if the Warranty department will cover the barrel turning as per the lifetime repair policy.

He should be giving me a call back...hopefully soon.

[Gary H]

Sounds hopeful. You might want to refurbish under warranty and then sell. Some of the medium frame revolvers aren't much larger and would hold-up a bit better. I know that my round butt K-frame is just a tad larger than my dads model 60. I suspect that some L-Frame and Ruger GP-100's would be in the same size range. Of course you already mentioned the SP-101. My wife's gun has yet to venture beyond 38+P.

[DennisE]

I'm perplexed. This business of carrying one thing and practicing with another is counterintuitive and makes no darn sense. I carry a S&W Model 66 F-Comp loaded with .357 Magnum hollowpoints. I have shot a fair number of .38 Speical +Ps just for fun, plinking and target practice but I also shoot ~1000 rounds/month of .357 Magnum JHPs through it. There is a differnece between shooting the .38s and the .357 Magnums in a k-frame. How on earth would shooting even a steady diet of .38's in practice prepare me for using .357 Magnum rounds in in a true self defense situation? I've always heard, "practice with what you carry" - still seems like the best rule to me. Dennis

[WebHobbit]

DennisE-- what is your carry load? According to Smith any of the light bullet 110-125 or so are gonna have the blow-torch effect on the forcing cone.

[DennisE]

My current carry load is Federal .357 Magnum 130 grain JHP Hydra Shock Personal Defense Ammo. My practice ammo has varied between National Bullet 125 grain JHP (1350 fps) and Magtech 158 grain SJSP (1233 fps). Dennis

[MR.G]

Looking at a J frame next to a K frame, the forcing cone on the J frame looks stronger. The K frame forcing cone is cut at the bottom so that the yoke will clear when closed. The J frame does not have that cut.

[Litlman]

Just a little info. The first "sp101 was called the "Pocket Rocket" made by Rick Devoid. He converted the origiginal sp from 38 to 357. I had an sp101, sold it to finance another project. I liked it. I do still have my 442 and have no complaints about it. I hope that they cover the repairs for you . Good luck.

[Blueduck]

Doesnt anyone else think that $160 is kinda pricey for a factory to refinish one of a its own guns?

Yes!

On S/W's own website thats the price for a satin nickel refinish NOT just the $95 bead blast needed for stainless guns. Guy your talking to is apparently pretty clueless as to whats going on. I'd ask for someone else.

I used to bravely rave about S/W's service even when most folks hated them. Now I just got done wrapping up 2 guns to go back to them because they could not do the job right the first time:fire: Of course Kates always so helpfull, "Sir just send it back" -again.. :rolleyes:

[WebHobbit]

An update:

I finally got the gun back after telling them to forget the "pay work".

The person I talked to before they shipped it back said they "thought warranty dept. did fix the forcing cone".

:rolleyes:

They never did confirm that they fixed the thing! They never even mentioned the warranty repair on the paper that was packed in the box when I got it back!

:fire:

I am NOT impressed with S&W's customer service.

Close examination of the gun does seem to indicate they "turned the barrel". The forcing cone does look nice and even now. Looks "new" I guess.

They didn't even bother to clean the gun...there were still "blue wax" flecks all over the barrel. I'm guessing this was some kinda lube they used when they took the barrel on and off?

At any rate I have lost all confidence in the piece and I will be selling it.

I am carrying an SP101 now.

[Old Pa]

My briefcase gun is a 3" .357Mag Model 60. It's the "Jenny" gun, commemorating my sweet departed brittany spaniel. It's got Pachmayr grippers, new light springs and action smoothing, and the forcing cone has been extended. My .357Mag load for it is a 125gr XTP in front of a moderate load of Unique (developed by observing pressure signs) anf Federal small pistol primers. Probably only 200 of these loads through it; establish 50 yard zero and then recycle loaded rounds at end of each practice. Mostly it gets 160 gr. lead Keith types in front of moderate 2400 charges; easier on everyone. 1500 rounds and no problems! This is, however, a light .357 and my most specialized .357.

[Shane]

Maybe I should sell it and buy an SP101?

Not a bad idea, actually. The SP 101 can take THOUSANDS of full powered .357 magnum rounds, and look like new despite being a small framed revolver. One of the local ranges has rented the same SP 101 out for nearly 10 years, and lots of shooters put magnums in it according to the range owner. It still looks and shoots like new, except that the trigger is now REAL SMOOTH from being pulled a lot.



Personally, I own a SP 101 and its a great little pistol. I don't shoot too many magnums in it many because recoil is nasty with that little itty bitty grip and 25 ounce frame (I have the short 2.25" barrel). You really can't go wrong with an SP 101......your S&W is a nice pistol BUT I personally wouldn't like having to worry about shooting it little and carrying it a lot. A gun that can't take a reasonable diet of practice loads IMO is not well suited for me. YMMV

[Blueduck]

I am NOT impressed with S&W's customer service.

WebHobbit,

If you'll note my post from June 10th looks like our guns were there at the same time, same results.

I just gave up on them totally. Damn shame, quality service was really one of S/W's big selling points. Won't be buying another one.

[10-Ring]

I guess it makes sense, a steady diet of magnums would prematurely wear me out too :D

[Sobell]

I have to add my 2 cents here. S & W have, IMHO, the type of excellence in customer service, that legends are made of.

I recently had to send a new purchase back to repair a firing pin bushing. One call and a pre-paid FedEx label was sent to my door. I wrapped my package, set it on the front porch, and FedEx came back and picked it up. Could not have been quicker or simpler. AND, the customer service rep was just a pleasure to talk to.

A few weeks ago, I found a used S&W auto, 12 years old, that I knew had been recalled back in 1991 to retrofit an upgraded part. This auto had never been sent back. I called S&W expecting to pay the shipping, knowing they would probably update the piece. Again, they offered free FedEx and free upgrade. What more could you ask for. I wasn't even the original owner!

Now that's excellent customer service. I can buy S&W with total confidence in the future; not something I can say for all US gun makers today. They stand behind their product as well as any other company I can think of.

Sobell

[WebHobbit]

Sobell - that's nice to know it worked out for you but there stance on barrel to cylinder gaps & the fact that they would tell me to "practice with .38s and carry Magnums" mean they only have so much faith in their products.


Also I found it very unprofessional that NO ONE at S&W could actually confirm for me that my gun was repaired.

See here:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30451

[Frenchy]

In a perfect world, we would have perfect customer service from every company. Unfortunately...This isn't that world.
Most good businesses (like S&W) historically have a high percentage of positive feedback from there clientele.
My experiences with S&W have been positive to this point.

[SnWnMe]

The one time I used S and W's customer service was for my 625 (nice house gun BTW). I sent it to a shop in Long Beach (authorized svc ctr) and they got it back to me after a weekend. Admittedly, the problem was a quality control issue but Smith took care of me!

That is my experience with the big S and I hope that some Customer Svc management type from Smith reads these posts and castigates the parties who are responsible for the original poster's bad experience and rectifies it to his satisfaction.

BTW I'm a new member who likes Smith wheelguns. My fave is my 17 :D

[SnWnMe]

I do agree, however, that if a gun is rated for 357, then one should be able to shoot that round until all his dental work falls out and not hurt the gun at all.

LOL all the comparisons with Ruger reminds me of the Burgers and Fries ads that Smith ran when the 686 came out!

[Poohgyrr]

Heyyyyy,
That Ad campaign about Ruger's thick revolvers vs Smith's thick burgers & shakes still brings a big smile to my grumpy old face ;)...

And yup, the SP101 does remind me of the snubby M66 :neener:

[MMcCall]

I do agree, however, that if a gun is rated for 357, then one should be able to shoot that round until all his dental work falls out and not hurt the gun at all.

I disagree.. my speedometer goes up to 160, but if I ran my car at 160MPH, all day every day, its life span would be shot to heck. On rare occasion, when necessary, it's ok.

[Cosmoline]

I'm looking into a 640 and I must say I'm less concerned with this issue than I would have been five years ago. Fact is, I simply don't use handguns unless there's an emergency. Some practice rounds will suffice, there's no need for a CCW .357 that can cope with 1,000 rounds of the hot stuff. I will always favor a rifle or shotgun first, simply because experience shows I can hit very little IRL with the short guns. Even the big, heavy short guns with long barrels :D

[Gunsnrovers]

Here's a thought for you. Sell the pistol and get another one.

You bought it in 1996. Even using "new math", that's still 8 years of service. Let's say you paid $450 for it. You've invested $56.25 a year into a pistol you use to defend our life. That's pretty freakin' cheap.

It's a small easy to conceal CCW pistol designed for self defense. It's just a tool. A commodity. An instrument. It's not a life long investment that you will give down to your kids grandkids.


Lots of guns are for play and fun and for keeping. A self defense gun is just that. A tool used for self defense. Then again, I don't skimp on the tires, brakes, and work I do on my trucks either.

Heck, if you ever HAVE to use it, expect the police to take it anyway at least for a while. I've seen some of the pistols that have come back from PD's after cases. May as well have been tossed in a dryer full of rocks. Case #'s etched into frames. Finish trashed. Grips marked up.

IMHO if you're going to carry or use it for self defense, you've got to look at it as a disposable item.

[R.H. Lee]

I've owned a couple of J-Frames (shot one loose) and consider them carry-only-last-ditch-emergency guns. Sadly, your experience with S&W is probably the norm. Corporations-pfffftt! Their first loyalty is to stockholders, then management, then (maybe) you, the customer.

[Cosmoline]

Gunsnrovers has the right idea. I've spent years searching for the perfect CCW piece, but when it comes right down to it my favorite handgun is not the one I want to carry. There's far too much exposure to mud, dirt, rust, and of course potential legal exposure. It's the same thing I'm discovering with hunting rifles and fishing shotguns. They just get too abused, and at this point I'm restricting myself to beaters for all field use. A 640 isn't going to be the most accurate handgun, or the strongest, but it will sit for years in a holster until needed and you don't have to worry about it or fuss over it much.

[Tamara]

I've owned a couple of J-Frames (shot one loose) and consider them carry-only-last-ditch-emergency guns.

Huh.

I only own seven J-frames at the moment, plus three I's and one improved-I, so maybe I haven't shot enough of them loose yet. I always thought the cure for lack of hits with a gun was practice, but maybe I should research this further... :uhoh:

[R.H. Lee]

I only own seven J-frames at the moment, plus three I's and one improved-I, so maybe I haven't shot enough of them loose yet

Well, keep going. In time the cylinder will not lock up tight, the timing will go, it will shave lead, and eventually will not fire every time. :p

[surfinUSA]

I've had excellent service from S&W. If I ever shoot my 642 loose I'll be sending it back for warranty repairs. Its aluminum, I like to shoot , it will probably wear out, its that simple. Same if my model 65 ever shoots loose. I eventually expect to wear them both out, big deal, thats what warranties are for.

If you got bad service or talked to some numbnut on the phone that doesn't know what they are doing, go up the ladder and talk to the service manager or higher if you have to. Most companies will be glad to help you out, most also want to know when some lazy numbnut is blowing off the customers rather than helping solve their problem. Crying about it here won't get your gun fixed for free or otherwise. Worse you end up having to read a bunch of wiseass responses telling you to buy another gun:rolleyes:

[joeoim]

I have sent 2 used revolvers to Smith & Wesson for work and couldn't have been treated better.

Sorry to hear your experience was not as positive.

I sent a stainless security six ( I had carried and shot it a lot ) that was getting out of time and sometimes locking on one cilinder, back to Strum Ruger and couldn't have been treated better there either.

Joe

[PigPen]

Tamara said:

Huh.

I only own seven J-frames at the moment, plus three I's and one improved-I, so maybe I haven't shot enough of them loose yet. I always thought the cure for lack of hits with a gun was practice, but maybe I should research this further...

Afraid I have to disagree with you Tamara.:eek: Those little J frames are cute. I have at least one. It stoked with 158 grain lead semi-Wadcutter hollow points. You can guess why. I hardly ever (OK ....almost never) fire it at targets. It's just no fun to shoot.

So what am I going to do if I have to use it in an emergent situation? I am going to be so close that I will not aim!.........Only point it in the direction I need it to go. I am not planning on firing it if I can escape harm's way by running or ducking etc. I practice with other pistols enough that I can do that...............they are made for shooting.

PigPen

[Marshall]

Guns are different than speedometers.

A .308 is made to shoot .308's, a 12 ga is made to shoot 12ga shells, a .45 colt is made to shoot .45 colts, and so on. Any J Frame, L Frame, K Frame, N Frame, etc. made in the .357 Mag caliber should be built to shoot that caliber throughout it's lifetime, assuming "normal or standard" pressure loads are used.

If S&W say's the gun is not able to do so, it's borderlining on legal issues, they should extremely careful in their replies to customers. Again, if that is the case, they should be taking steps to solve the problem.

The average Joe that decides to buy a .357 J Frame for his first gun, buy's it with the obvious assumtion it's made to shoot .357 mag ammo. He may not even know you can shoot .38's in it.

My 02 cents.

[JohnK]

He asked me what the 500 magnums were & I told him mostly Winchester 110 jhps. He said "that's a law-enforcement type round...it's pretty HOT!".

Hot?? That's one of the lightest 357 magnum loads available. Even Winchester only claims 1,295 fps for it, less than Corbons 115gr 9mm load. So even the lightest factory 357 load available is to much for it...sounds like they should quit letting their marketing department decide what ther guns should be chambered for. If it's built for 38's it should be chambered for 38's.

[PigPen]

The average Joe that decides to buy a .357 J Frame for his first gun, buy's it with the obvious assumtion it's made to shoot .357 mag ammo. He may not even know you can shoot .38's in it.

I know what you are saying has some veracity. The public has gotten a free ride on product knowledge for somew time now. I do not know how long this can last.

Every person in our society must take responsibility for knowing the basics about everything that they touch.

PigPen

[ted murphy]

FWIW, The S&W 'K' frame is also not meant for a steady diet of .357 mags either. The idea was you qualified with and carried the magnums, but practiced with the .38's. That's more or less why the L frame came about, for those who liked to pop magnums more often.

I'm willing to bet you can mess up a SP101 with a constant diet of magnums too. Would take more than a J frame, but it could happen. most folks would proably get Carpal Tunnel first though.

I have over 1,000 125 grain magnumss through my 640 and 4k of +P .38's and just had to correct endshake. Guess some guns wear different than others.

Shooting magnums in these two guns will eventually stretch the frame some and cause some other barrel issues. I've had to have S&W set the barrel back on a model 13 to compensate for frame stretch. Didn't cost all that much and considering the gun is nearly as old as I am, I didn't think it too bad a service life.

S&W has always been very good to me on warranty work. Guess the next test is my 625 that is there now.

Rugers are a pretty nice gun but I do prefer the J frames over them, the airweights to be specific. If I have to buy a new one every 10 years or so, then so be it.

Odd that S&W warranty did not work with you more than that. I've had them do quite a bit more to guns for less money. Don't know the reason they didn't want to do the same for you though.



Ted

[dairycreek]

They really did'nt say that the gun was not meant for shooting 357's. What they said is that 357's would wear more than 38's. That's pretty axiomatic. The hotter the round the more wear on the gun. Nothing new there. The S&W J-frames made to shoot 357 will shoot that ammo quite well thank you. Good shooting;)

[Marshall]

If anyone can show me an all steel J, K, L, or N frame .357 manual that explains that the gun is made for qualifying and carrying magnums but made to be practiced with .38's, I'll let S&W off the hook.

I mean heck, they tell you everything else in the manual. If that is so, it sure is a huge omission, IMO.

[ted murphy]

Dunno Marshall,

I've known that since I started shooting. Guess I've always thought it was something generally understood, which is why I'm puzzled at your outrage.

Be interesting to write ruger and ask them if they recommend a steady diet of .357 magnums for the SP101. I bet they caution you as well.

Ted

[Marshall]

Ted,

I mean no outrage, I mean concern for buyers. See, I am a S&W fan and am concerned by there answer. Personally, it makes me ashamed of S&W's customer service, I believe it's a weak ass answer.

Paraphrased:

Hello, S&W C-Service

Yea, this is Joe and I have a problem........

What is it Joe.......

My J Frame 357 Mag is screwed up........

Well Joe, you haven't been shooting many 357 Mag catridges have you?...

Uh, yea........

Well Joe, we don't recommend you do that.......

Uh, what do I shoot then?..........

.38's Joe..........

Why didn't you tell me this before I bought it or, broke it.......? I could have saved money and bought a 38 special!

Doesn't everyone know this Joe.........?

No, I didn't........I even read your manual..........!!!

Well Joe, you dumb ass, what all do you expect from us......???

and so on.........

[surfinUSA]

I agree with Marshall. When I buy a 357 I shoot 357 if the gun breaks under waranty I expect it to be fixed under warranty. I don't want to hear ???? from a customer service rep. If I do, I go right up the ladder like I said in my earlier post.

If they would like to use my K frame in an advertisement as to the unbelievably long life expectancy of these guns thats fine, but other than that I don't want to hear ???? about how many rounds of a specific caliber that a gun is chambered for that I shot.

I expect my guns to wear from use. I expect S&W to fix them for free if they are still under warranty (lifetime is hopefully a long time).

[Gunsnrovers]

Where in S&W's lifetime warranty does it say they'll fix a pistol for free regardless? Wearing something out doesn't constitute the same thing as a defect.

From their web page:

1. Lifetime Service Policy

We will repair any defect in material or workmanship without charge to the original purchaser for as long as you own the handgun.


Now if their warranty said, "we will make repairs without charge to the original purchaser for as long as you own the handgun." I would see your point.

If you're expected S&W to give us all a free ride for buying their pistols, you're out of your mind. HUGE difference between a lifetime warranty and a lifetime manufacturers defect warranty.

The unlimited warranty offered by Taurus is a completely different animal and sounds more like what you're looking for.

[JohnBT]

Mark me down as one of the "I thought everybody knew that" crowd. I'd guess the first time my father told me little guns last longer if you don't shoot max loads was in the '50s or early '60s.

I'd say they put that .357 on the barrel to tell us the gun won't blow up if we shoot a few every so often.

Heck, he told me big guns last longer if you don't shoot max loads. K-frames for instance. :)

Look at the speedometer on your car or truck. How long will the engine last if you drive it all the time at 110 or 120 or whatever the largest number is? Or if you drive with the tach at the redline all the time?

John...no wonder everybody wants to buy my old guns. ;)

[surfinUSA]

I agree that webhobbit should have to pay for the refinish thats almost never a warranty item. But 400-500 rounds doesn't seem excessive. It sounds like normal use not normal wear. Of course reading his first post it appears that S&W only wanted him to pay for the refinish so I don't know what his problem is unles the labor rate was for the repairs and not the refinish.

[Gunsnrovers]

I have no problem with getting manufactures to back up their warranties, so I'm not sticking up for S&W, but if you came to me with a pistol you bought in 1996 (8 years ago) that needed to be refinished due to wear and needed to be repaired for damage that is typically attributed to a large amount of .357 firing, I'd have serious doubts about the 400~500 round count of .357 (and 1000 rounds total). That only comes to 125 rounds per year and 50~60 rounds of .357. Just doesn't sound right.

I'll also stand by my earlier comment that a $400 or so dollar pistol that is carried every day and needs to be repaired for $200~$300 or replaced after 8 years has done good service. If you're using the pistol to defend your life, the $60 or so dollars a year is a lot cheaper then someone telling your family you won't be coming home anymore.

[JohnKSa]

they'll fix a pistol for free regardless?No one says that, but on the other hand, no one says up front that their guns are only good for about 1K rounds of which only about half that can be full power loads before repair is required. Having them say that openly, up front, would be one thing. Having them complain when you send it in needing repair after shooting 1K of factory ammo through it is another entirely.

[Erich]

Well, I just bought a Model 60-15 .357 this week (as many of you may already know from other boards), and I shot a mess of .357s through it today. It seems to be no worse for the wear, but I have no intention of repeating today's performance regularly.

If things should go wrong, I fully intend to take advantage of S&W's lifetime repair policy, and if they give me guff about shooting this .357 with .357s, I'll take advantage of my law degree.

However, I was always an advocate of shooting K-frames only very rarely with .357 magnum rounds, so I certainly would not think this J-frame will hold up forever under such abuse.

By the way, based on my range work today, I intend to carry 158-gr LSWCHP +Ps for social work (because they work, are astonishingly accurate in this gun, and I can also use them in the Colt Agent that I carry alongside the Model 60, and this way I can just carry one type of ammo) and use Buffalo Bore 158-gr LHCs (they chrono them at 1398 fps out of their 3" J-frame) for a trail load.