Jogging gun / dog protection


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wheelgunlover
March 14, 2007, 12:04 PM
I know this has been discussed frequently, but I am looking for recommendations for a jogging gun that would be effective against dogs as well. I would normally carry pepper spray as well, but I think I am interested in adding a firearm to the mix and going the fanny pack route.

Recently I have been carrying a S&W 442 .38 snub loaded with +P LHPs. But I am questioning its effectiveness.

Also, are there advantages or disadvantages of revolvers over semis, or vice versa? I am primarily concerned about the constant bouncing around of the firearm innards.

I'm assuming I should focus on lighter weight guns so as to minimize risk of injury to the lower back.

Thoughts?

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hagar
March 14, 2007, 12:11 PM
For jogging, fanny pack carry is probably your best bet. I would take a look at the new Kel_Tec PF9, or stick to a Glock 26, 5 or 6 rounds might not be enough to take care of a threat from a pack of dogs, muggers, the Energizer bunny, whatever.

whited
March 14, 2007, 12:18 PM
I know a gun is best, but I just can't jog comfortably whilst toting.

I think a good blade and pepper spray will do the job, but I recognize they
are second best.

Nationalist
March 14, 2007, 12:46 PM
kel tec p38t

old4x4
March 14, 2007, 12:57 PM
Recently I have been carrying a S&W 442 .38 snub loaded with +P LHPs. But I am questioning its effectiveness.


I don't think a dog's gonna hold up against 38+P's. One should slow down the biggest, meanest dog, or at least change his mind. If you can't do the job with 5, 10 ain't gonna help you either (I'm partial to revolvers). SHOT PLACEMENT. I have a SW 337 in 38+P and when the weather warms up, I'm going to carry it mountain biking with me. I like the idea of having a revolver with me over a semi. Less moving parts, and in a panicked moment, no safeties, mag releases, etc. to worry about. Just my .02

Claude Clay
March 14, 2007, 12:59 PM
unless they are swarming you ( doubtful unless you let them sneak up on you ) a S&W 351 7 rounds 22 mag 11 ounces VERY noisy, very accurate is all you should need. You are alpha & make strong eye contact & COMMAND the alpha dog...g o a w a y & you do not have a fear smell on you cause you are armed, he will be "confused". The stand off can last a few minutes but this has never failed me ( 4 times so far). Pack mentatility is such that if you must shoot, hit the alpha dog, his yelp will send the others scattering. Not really necceessay to kill the dog as they fight for dominance, i am tempted to say almost never to the death. As these dogs are pets that got loose they will understand g o h o m e......b a d d o g commands do not break eye contact. ps works pretty well w/ 2 legged animals also.

Lou22
March 14, 2007, 08:23 PM
I carry my Kel-Tec P3AT .380 whenever I go out for my walk. Only disadvantage is it is so small and light you gotta be careful and not forget and leave in the pocket when you put your clothes in the wash.

Lou

10-Ring
March 14, 2007, 09:20 PM
For me, jogging w/ a gun is just too uncomfortable....maybe a Kahr PM9 would work if you find a way to carry comfortably

tnieto2004
March 14, 2007, 09:24 PM
pepper spray .. unless you live around WILD DOGS .. It will be more than enough

wally
March 14, 2007, 09:31 PM
6.4mm Velo Dog revolver was designed for just such a thing -- to shoot dogs chasing cyclists in the 1890's I believe, long obsolete and what a howl such a thing would cause if re-introduced now. My how times have changed.

Unless you are in the boonies, shooting a dog without at least letting it bite you first will likely land you in a heap of trouble!

--wally.

kmrcstintn
March 14, 2007, 10:12 PM
after a range session that ended abruptly due to a malfunction with the used rifle I bought (I had packed my SP101 into the gear box since we were going groundhog plunking later in the day; I planned on open carry for onbody protection while wandering around), I went back to the shop where I bought it (they guarantee the used guns & I was granted a partial refund & the rest store credit) and I left the SP101 in the gear box in the back of the car; when I returned to my apartment complex I had a wandering dog yappin up a storm at me (it had tags, but no leash and no owner in the vicinity); I was basically stuck inside my car for several minutes until the dog lost interest and wandered off...

1) the dog was a larger breed or a mix of larger breeds :eek:

2) he maintained eye contact with me the entire time :what:

3) if I wasn't in the car, I probably would have been injured :fire:

4) WHY IN THE H$#L DID I NOT PUT THE GUN IN THE FRONT OF THE CAR WITH ME?!? :banghead:

tank mechanic
March 14, 2007, 10:35 PM
* Disclaimer. I highly doubt anyone else will find this practical but it works in my set of circumstances*

I have to go run once a week in the woods out in the middle of no where. The guys I run with run for a really long distance at a pretty steady speed. I am not going to go out in the middle of no where without a fire arm. So, as a base layer, I put on an Under Armor shirt and then I strap on my beretta 92 in a jackass holster. I then put on another Under Armor shirt to hold the holster and mags down (I have a double mag pouch on the other side of the jackass rig and it helps counter the weight ). And then to top it off I put on a regular t shirt. It is cold enough in the morning that it is not uncomfortable to be wearing so many layers. The Under Armor shirt holds the weapon tight to my torso no matter how fast I run. The only downside is that it is a very slow draw, but I am in a situation where concealment trumps speed.

Trisha
March 14, 2007, 10:41 PM
Windy day?

So much for pepper spray (yep, that's you wheezing like the terminal emphisema patient - and the carnivore is still gnawing on you, but you can't even catch enough breath to scream. . .).

Any green belt/open land in your vicinity? Semi-feral dogs are quite possible. But before you get too far ahead of yourself, you might try the tactical drill I use, to simulate a number of worst case basics:

Stay up and active at least 24 hours. Fast completely for the last 8, and then, once at the range, down at least two double espressos and a glass of water. At a minimum, run at least half a mile, preferrably while either carrying an off-center pack, or dragging something substantial.

Without stopping, as soon as you reach the firing line, have someone verify range safety and activate a travelling low target. My favorite is to use a paper plate on a 12" stick on an old Tonka truck, pulled with a string (#10 monofilament is less distracting, btw).

Starting distance is 30 feet, and usually the travelling target is pulled by someone running as fast as they can sprint.

Double tap.

I fail about half the time. I can get one good hit, but the follow-up shot? With everything about the test designed to have me at the greatest physiological disadvantage, it keeps real-world limitations forefront in my mind.

Spice it up a little?

Give the safety officer the option of a good blood-curdling scream without warning.

This absolutely is not recommended without the complete sequence being monitored by an RO, an SO, and an air horn is the emergency FREEZE IN PLACE signal default, always.

All that out in the open now?

I carry a .45acp, or a .357mag 3" with reloads. I also carry the personal size air horn (sold for the canoe, the kayak, etc) instead of pepper spray.

Up here, something nasty on 4 legs can be anything from Fido gone bad to a mountain lion - you get one chance before something (if not more than one such beasty) is trying to swallow that first bite and tuck in for a serious meal (I've always wondered if vegans really were the other white meat to predatory carnivores).

City folk? Do whatever you can - SAFELY - to test your limitations.

YMMV.

earplug
March 14, 2007, 10:52 PM
Most dogs that challenge humans are I'll trained currs.
I have shot numerous dogs while living in the sticks near a county dump.
Nothing but a brain hit will stop a dog quickly. A 230 FMJ .45 ACP through the ribs won't knock a 60-70 pound dog over.
But, if you charge a normal dog, yelling like a mad man, the majority of dogs will tuck tail and run.
If that won't work a collapsable flexible baton will work wonders.
Don't give up on getting a firearm for the human currs.
A cycling jersey with the rear pockets is A nice way to carry things.

ball3006
March 15, 2007, 11:05 AM
3AT. In a small pouch, you won't even know it is there.....chris3

Cosmoline
March 15, 2007, 11:25 AM
Your aim is going to be seriously impacted by your activity level. I wouldn't want to have to rely on a snub nose in those conditions. Besides, the best way to deal with 99% of the dogs out there is to stop running and face them down. And think of it this way. Your chance of hitting a dog that's barking at you are minimal, let alone getting a lethal hit with a .38. And you've just discharged a firearm in a public area with not a scratch on you to show you were in danger. If you really do get nailed, aiming DOWN AT YOUR FEET or trying to reach around to aim at the dog biting your calf or nethers is going to be an exceedingly bad idea. NEVER shoot down towards important parts of your body.

You'll be better served for attacking dogs by sounding off like you've got a pair and standing your ground. If they get too close, a quality telescoping ASP baton smacked to the nose is quite effective. I commute by bike and get chased at least once a week. Dogs on the run like that are operating on prey drive, so don't act like prey. Besides, the dogs that chase have no real malice in them. They're just being dogs. If you start capping them, you might as well start shooting kids for throwing snowballs at you.

SniperStraz
March 15, 2007, 11:51 AM
a quality telescoping ASP baton smacked to the nose is quite effective
+1 on the ASP. Nothing more devastating once you get that close to a dog. Their long exposed back make easy targets. I still think you should be packing heat all the time, but dogs are fast moving targets and when your jogging and your heart is thumping that fast it would be hard to get off a clean shot. As far as getting in trouble for killing a dog... you might get taken to claims court or something. I don't think you'll have any trouble convincing His Honor that the 110lb rotty didn't just want to say hello. I'm a dog lover and I've trained attack dogs, but I still see no problem with you defending yourself. I know a guy who stabbed a pitbull right in the chest when it came after his dog. Leash laws mad eit impossible to convict him of anything. w/e your choice is. Stay safe and stand your ground. You won't be able to outrun most dogs, and if you do run, you'll find yourself even more tired when you have to defend yourself.

loplop
March 15, 2007, 11:57 AM
Not to get off on too much of a tangent... But a few of you have recommended confronting potentially aggressive dogs in a "alpha" manner, to show your dominance and get them to back down.

This flies in the face of all I have read on *unplanned* dog (and animal) confrontations. I have always read that to try to take the "alpha" role will often cause an escalation, potentially to violence. The best thing to do is to NOT make eye contact and continue on your path (if safe), or retreat slowly, protecting your vitals.

This does not apply if it is YOUR dog, and you are training it. In that case you MUST be alpha.

Dunno fellas, perhaps I've been lucky, but save one incident where a fear biter got me, I've avoided many situations with unknown dogs this way.

HOWEVER, in the situation described by Cosmoline, I agree. I know when a "chaser" is only playing, and in that case, sounding off like a madman has always worked.

As for jogging gun... This is a tough one and in the past I have often gone sans weapon. I've decided that's not an option anymore, so I am looking into new manner of carry. I also bicycle alot, often passing through some "questionable" areas, and I just picked up one of these:
http://www.niceshot.net/webstore/images/60317-goblin-432x286.jpg

Camelbak products are ubiquitous in my area, and this one offers such deep concealment I initially passed over it at a store because I thought it wasn't the model with the holster! A bonus is it carries water, which I always do anyway.

Perhaps handier for bicycling (although my Camelbak backpack is more comfortable), and not as handy for jogging as the little water bottles joggers seem to have nowadays, but this might work for you nonetheless. For what it's worth, it holds my SIG P228 and P239 very well, but the built in holster isn't great for my J-frame revolver. It seems to like thinner rather than thicker. I just bought a Kahr PM9, I'll give that a try as well.

HTH

45/70
March 15, 2007, 02:18 PM
People who shoot dogs while jogging get arrested. They get arrested for shooting in an uban area, and they get arrested for shooting domestic pets.

If you want a "dog gun" . . . get a squirt gun full of household ammonia. That and pepper spray. If a dog chases you report it to the police.

We had a jerk shoot a dog while he was out jogging. An off-duty cop. They tossed him in jail for six months, and he'll never work on the police force again. Discharge of a firearm in an urban area, and abuse of a domestic animal.

People who shoot dogs are jerks.

Cosmoline
March 15, 2007, 02:29 PM
It's not really about being an alpha. That would involve biting the dog by the neck and humping him :D It's about stopping the prey drive and literally changing form (in their eyes) from a set of shiny leg targets to a commanding human. But certainly avoiding eye contact can't hurt. And if the dog looks simply lost I'll adopt a friendly posture and tone.

Now there are a small percentage of dogs who are not just chasing the flashing prey image, and who will call your bluff. But they're uncommon and generally used to guard enclosed areas. Even with true guard dogs, when they're off their own turf they tend to become just like any other goofy dog. It's run round happy fun time.

fattsgalore
March 15, 2007, 02:29 PM
Anything is better then nothing.

PointOneSeven
March 15, 2007, 02:37 PM
From experience, it's really hard to keep a solid bead on a dog with a snub nose while it's jumping around. More rounds = better.


And yes, the little bastard bit me, and no I didn't kill it. A warning shot was all it took to remedy the situation. If it was 50+ lbs, the story would be different.

MCgunner
March 15, 2007, 02:46 PM
If ALL I was worried about were dogs, I'd just drop my NAA mini with it's "holster grip" in a pocket. I've taken more'n one dog with it. At close range, I'll end the fight in one shot, I guarantee it. :evil: People underestimate these little guns, but I've killed fairly large feral dogs quite dead with mine. It's my all purpose varmint and deep concealment back up. I never leave home without it, always with a bigger gun front line for humans. However, if a dog came at me, I'd reach for my NAA first, most likely. It's not as loud nor as obvious in the neighborhood as a 9mm +P or .38 +P and does the job. I just wouldn't wanna go into a gun fight with a human with only the little NAA. I don't reckon you need a magnum, noisy as heck.

If you're going to carry a bigger gun in .22 than the NAA, just get a .38 and be happy. That way, you'll be adequately armed be it dog or man. JMHO, of course. Heck, one of those fold up batons would be good for a dog, too. I'd rather enjoy beating the crap out of a mean dog, myself. :evil: Of course, if you question your marksmanship, hows about one of them new Taurus 4410s with a 3" .410 load. Should do the trick inside five or ten feet with number 6. I can't think of too many uses for that thing, but this might be one of 'em. :D

I don't worry about pets so much, except certain breeds like pit bulls. I HATE pit bulls. I'll shoot one in a heartbeat if he comes after me. What I worry about is wild feral dogs and we have 'em around here, have killed some of my cats I had around here for rat control. I shoot 'em on sight, got no right to breath around MY place. Most pets you can tell even if they have no collar.

cookekdjr
March 15, 2007, 02:46 PM
People who shoot dogs while jogging get arrested. They get arrested for shooting in an uban area, and they get arrested for shooting domestic pets.

If you want a "dog gun" . . . get a squirt gun full of household ammonia. That and pepper spray. If a dog chases you report it to the police.

We had a jerk shoot a dog while he was out jogging. An off-duty cop. They tossed him in jail for six months, and he'll never work on the police force again. Discharge of a firearm in an urban area, and abuse of a domestic animal.

People who shoot dogs are jerks.

Well....I am going to assume that wheelgunlover is not going to shoot unless its required to save himself or another. I'm just going to assume he'll do the right thing. There are, in fact, unprovoked dog attacks that require lethal force to stop them. My neighbor's pit bull ripped a little girls face off for no reason at all, for example. Thank God plastic surgery put her back together. Attacks like this aren't common, but they do happen. Kinda like muggings. So its good to be armed.
As for what to carry, it will be hard to beat the 442. My surgery recovery has mandated that I walk, not run, and I rotate between a G19, a S&W j-frame, and a SIG p232. I wouldn't worry about caliber so much as weight. Although I have heard of pitbulls standing up to a 9mm, I think most would run away after being shot by almost any firearm.
Just my two cents.
-David

whited
March 15, 2007, 02:55 PM
45/70:

Perhaps you would prefer the jogger had been mangled or killed by the dog ?

Just curious.

Cosmoline
March 15, 2007, 03:55 PM
intimidate/attack someone without cause

There's a REALLY BIG GAP between your slash. I know people who are abjectly terrified of dogs, so even the sight of one a block away on a leash will intimidate them. Other people are afraid of the mere sight of a firearm. That's their problem. It's not reasonable to start blasting away at a dog because it wants to chase you when you're jogging by. Indeed it's criminal behavior, and could lead to tragic results. Imagine the owner chasing after fido, rounding the corner just to get caught in the chest by your slug. That's reckless use of a firearm.

Moreover, as someone who's done his share of protection work I can assure you that a firearm is not the ideal weapon to fend off a genuine attack. The angle is wrong, esp. since most attacks are at the buttocks or calfs. Ever do any target shooting pointing over your back down at your hind end? Me neither.

cookekdjr
March 15, 2007, 04:03 PM
Shooting a dog while you're out jogging or cycling will get you arrested. And if you think the dog is "threatening life and limb" then you're a bigger pussy than you can imagine.

Not a very high road comment. Disagreements are fine, but please try to keep this civil. BTW, the little girl who got her face ripped off by a pit bull was on her own property minding her own business. The dog's owner came outside and shot the dog himself. Sometimes dogs do bad things.

GCW5
March 15, 2007, 05:33 PM
After having shot alot of dogs in the line of keeping farm, home & family safe from marauding mutts, I will tell you that a dog is easier to kill than a coyote. At hand gun range, a .357 with 125 gr GHPs work very well. The wife uses 135gr Gold Dots in hers without any problem. It's a matter of getting good bullet placement, chest area good, head best.

MikePGS
March 15, 2007, 10:12 PM
Recently I have been carrying a S&W 442 .38 snub loaded with +P LHPs. But I am questioning its effectiveness.
I would hate to ever have to shoot a dog. That being said, your definitely right to question whether or not a .38 snub would stop an angry dog. I was reading some magazine (i think it might have been maxim, stuff... one of those types of magazines) and it had pictures of two pitbulls after hurricane katrina who were starved and desperate enough to start attacking a bull. Apparently some national guardsmen decided to put a stop to this so had to shoot one of the pits in the head with a 5.56 round. While i would've thought this would be more than sufficient to stop the animal in its tracks, apparently the pit didn't think so and kept on going until it took another round to the head. As a pit bull owner, i'm saddened by this, and i also hate the fact that these wonderful sweet all american dogs are villified by the lazy minds in the media. At the same time, i have to have complete respect for how tough they can be. While i was up north with my girlfriend and the dog (and some others, but i digress) the dog at a full run on a wooden floor (which she wasn't used to) slammed head first into the heavy solid couch that was in the cabin. While both my girlfriend and i winced in pain at the fact that the dog had smashed into the couch with enough force to probably knock a person out, the dog just looked at us sweetly, her tounge out of her mouth completely unfazed. That being said, today i was walking down the street when i saw a St Bernard. It was enormous! It was behind a little gate that wasn't even chest high on it. While i would absolutely hate to shoot any animal, if i were in a situation where i had to shoot a st bernard (not that they are by any means any more violent than any other dog) i would definitely want to be carrying something bigger than a .38. I'm not knocking the round at all, i'm just saying that some animals seem to have skulls that are incredibly thick and would take a good deal of force to stop them quickly. Also i just want to note that pit's definitely have an undeserved reputation, and our dog is possibly the sweetest in the world. However, wanna be "gangsta" types who think that a mean tough dog somehow makes them more masculine don't seem to be aware of this. And again, I would probably want something a little bigger for a P.O.'d pit. Just my 20 or so cents.

Run&Shoot
March 15, 2007, 10:14 PM
Here in the Portland area a few years ago an off duty deputy had a golden retriever run up to him. He was concerned for his safety and shot it. It was ruled self defense but frowned upon. No arrest or jail time.

Generally dogs are just having fun or trying to scare you off "their" turf. But, to say that no dog is a threat or should be shot is ridiculous. There are instances of unprovoked dog attacks. I don't think anyone here at THR is suggesting to shoot a dog because it chases you. The concern is what to do if the chase turns into an attack?

Even if you are not "scared" of it killing you, it could tear you up pretty good if it is a large dog. I am 230 lbs and believe me I have seen a couple of pits that looked so massive I would NOT want to take the chance of tangling with.

Any person who let's their dog run wild in an urban or suburban area is a jerk. They are putting people at risk and their dog at risk for their own vicarious aggression or idiocy. I have seen dog owners stand in their yard smiling as they watch their dog run across the street to charge me. Only when I cock my leg do they suddenly remember to call fido back to their own property.

Out I the country I have less problem with free range dogs. I assume the owner has either trained them well enough to behave on their own, or don't mind them getting whacked if they get aggressive.

I am so tired of hearing self appointed experts get on the "no animal is mean enough to deserve killing, and if you're that scared of them then stay home." Using that superior logic then you shouldn't carry a firearm at all because I doubt most of have been attacked (yet) my an ax murderer whil in the mall. Yet we do carry, just in case man or beast attacks for whatever reason. there have been attacks by humans and dogs and that is fact.

LoneCoon
March 15, 2007, 10:33 PM
I'll relate an incident that my dad had the misfortune to come across.

He was responding to a call when he and his partner were charged by a pitbull. it knocked down his partner and started to go for him when he shot and killed it. I forget what the Philadelphia PD uses (Glock in 9mm, I believe), but he hit the dog twice and it was sufficient to stop it.

That said, unless you're trying to defend against a St. Bernard or Mastiff, you should be okay.

MCgunner
March 15, 2007, 10:45 PM
Anyone that lets their dog out of their yard in THIS town has no rights where the dog is concerned. It gets killed, TOUGH! It comes on my property and shows aggression....BANG! Ain't supposed to shoot in town, but I don't have any neighbors real close and a .22 isn't as obvious as a bigger caliber, why I really like the little NAA for such situations. I don't shoot a dog that's not aggressive toward me and that I think might be a pet. We have packs of wild animals come through occasionally, though, and I know 'em when I see 'em. Dead on sight if I can get a shot.

You ain't much of a pet owner if you let your dog run off your property IMHO. Whatever happens to him off your property, he's probably got coming to him. Pit bulls, especially, need to be penned. TOO many instances of the things hurting kids and people. Big news stories out of Houston lately about that sort of thing. Pit bull had one guy by his hand, shoved it in the dog's mouth when it attacked him and choked the dog to death by the collar. The guy had a large number of stitches in his hand and the dog's OWNER is the one in some deep do, do. I don't think he was charged with any violations, but he'll no doubt be in civil court fighting for the shirt off his back, would be if it was me that dog attacked. It's a big issue around Houston now, whether to outright outlaw the ownership of pit bulls in the city. There are ordinances with fines for letting dogs run loose, but how enforceable are they? Too many kids lives at stake to have these dogs around, like having a wild animal, lion or cheetah or something. They're a far cry from your average Labrador or beagle or something. They can kill people and have the killer personality. Big as they are, I've never seen a vicious Labrador. If a pit bull comes in MY yard, my first instinct is to kill regardless of perceived attack. I'd rather kill the thing than take the chance and I have a young grand daughter under foot here to think about.

MCgunner
March 15, 2007, 10:49 PM
After having shot alot of dogs in the line of keeping farm, home & family safe from marauding mutts, I will tell you that a dog is easier to kill than a coyote.

Agree. Most of the dogs I've put down were with the .22 LR. I never ever had a problem, but usually make head shots. A .22 rifle will take even a large dog out pretty quick even with a lung shot. A handgun works better to the head. But, any thoughts of attack usually deminish when the gun barks. I had a pack of a half dozen in my yard one night, the ones that killed my cats. One shot ran 'em off. Too dark to aim, so I just shot in the ground to run 'em off. I hope they come back. I'd love to kill a few of 'em. I hate wild, feral dogs.

I think this is one subject where urban liberals just can't see the reality that the farmer and live stock owner sees. Wild dogs kill just for the fun of it. They'll kill everything they can get their fangs into, kids if that's possible. They kill 'til everything is dead and move on, don't even take a bite out of it. I've seen it happen with livestock. The good city folk that dump the puppies out in the wild and can't bring themselves to put the dogs down are the ones that kill the dogs, not me or my bullets.

DDrake
March 15, 2007, 11:15 PM
I think everyone knows dogs fairly well.... we all know how they love to chase things and protect their turf. We also know that a shout, forward quick motion, or a kick to the nose is often enough to send them running....... but not always.

Its safe to say the OP, like everyone here, can reconize an annoying big dog from a real threat. I never been attacked by a dog, but they are capable of severly injurying you and even killing a child. If you feel threaten, you have every right to use lethal force...... esspecially against an animal. In the eyes of the law, this is property... its not a human. I think its bad advice to have someone place the dog's interest before any human life. The only thing to consider is if that bullet has the chance of hitting a human-bystander. It shouldn't matter how you kill the animal (or stop it), just if your actions could hurt other people.





About after Katrina, its very common for law enforcement to start killing off animals after disasters. Often people are assigned to Zoos to kill off carnivors and right after the invasion of Iraq, american soldiers were killing off dogs. Animals can be very dangerious, but usually its the fault of the owner and not the animal......

slzy
March 15, 2007, 11:26 PM
i carry halt for the dog and a old colt 25 in the same carrier built for a cd player but now carry a mp3. so far have only had to use the halt once,and it worked,just spraying in direction of the dog. but i have heard of joggers/cyclists crippled for life. tell the dog lovers to keep them in the yard.

MCgunner
March 15, 2007, 11:44 PM
I might have got in some trouble as a 12 year old kid, but didn't get caught. We lived out in the country unincorporated area, and I hunted squirrel in the woods across the street almost daily, knew those woods and every trail in 'em. I was riding my bicycle down the street and a big dog came off a guy's porch and ran out and took a chunk of my leg, sock and all. I was one POed little kid, snuck out into the woods with my .22 down to that house, laid the gun over a log and shot that dog right off his front porch. I snuck out of there and back home, don't know when the dog's master found him, but I sure felt good about it. I wouldn't do that as an adult, of course. I'd have killed it in the act. :D But, it sure made me feel good to get even. I was an evil little fart I guess. My mom came home and bandaged my leg the right way later, asked about the dog. I told her it was a mean dog with a collar and I don't know where it went. Told her the real story years later. She was a little aghast, but not unsympathetic to my side of the story, LOL!

I have never trusted a dog since. I've owned a lot of dogs. My dogs, I trust. Labs are anything, but aggressive, beagles, too. I can tell, though, when a dog means business even if he can't tell when I mean business. I have never shot a dog since unless I knew it was feral. I've never been attacked like that since, though.

Run&Shoot
March 16, 2007, 01:20 AM
One of my next door neighbors as two rotties, one older and well bahaved, and one younger, though full sized. After they moved in my wife told me one day that the young one kept rushing over when she drove into our drive and barked at her. She was afraid to get out of the car and often would wait several minutes for the dog to wander off.

When I heard this I mentioned it to our neighbor, and let him know the next time I saw his dog in my yard or drive I would "take care of it". He apologized and I have never seen tat dog outside their fence unless on a leash. That is what a responsible owner does to protect his dog. It appears he has also gotten some obedience training as well.

I am not much in favor of restriction of breeds. Most of the Doberman, Rotties, Pit Bulls, and German Shepards I've encountered are well trained and behaved. It shoudl be restrictions by behavior. Animal Control is usually a joke. You have to have a dog hanging from your throat to get them out to the location in the same day. the owner should be held totally responsible or their dog. If the dog gets out and causes no harm and is not aggressive, then give them a warning. If the dog gets out and is aggressive, then either other people are free to respond however they feel is needed, or the police fine or arrest the owner for reckless endangerment, or maybe even assault if they knew the dog was aggressive through traiing, lack of training, or abuse.

chipp
March 16, 2007, 02:10 AM
I'm a dog lover. Don't have a problem with any of the breeds. I do have a problem if they are running lose. When I walked my lab around town, I used to carry in case a loose fighting dog attacked him. You bet I'd shoot.

I have found that stepping towards a charging dog and a big GET OUT OF HERE will send most dogs home (having a gun should help with the yell). Stepping backward and looking unsure of your self isn't good.

Personally I'd feel comfortable with the snubby, Can't see carrying a shotgun when you jog. I know, just like poeple dogs have been known to take alot of rounds. Thing is I'm pretty comfortable I would keep my composure.
If your going to start shooting at 10 feet away with a moving dog, you better be good with the gun. I'd wait till he was close. but, hell what do i know? personally I couldn't shoot dog unless I was sure he was going to attack. If you yell at it and it doesn't back up (or at least stop).
I'd get ready to fight.

Geronimo45
March 16, 2007, 02:36 AM
Dogs... since running off a dog that was big as I was with a hickory nut to the nose at age 12, h'ain't been rattled by 'em. A dog's a critter who's not naturally a-skeered of things he ought to be... namely cars. Therefore, I have reason to doubt the mental stability of dogs in general. Cats tend to be screwballs, too, in their own way. But dogs are a bit more flagrant in nuttiness.
A dog may scram in response to a shout or a bop on the nose. So may a thug. Sometimes, dog or person may go berserk and be out for blood at any cost - and in those situations, they deserve to be shot.
If you're big into the less-than-lethal bit, and just have dogs bothering you that are pesky varmints, tote one of those full-auto electric airsoft pistols. They shoot little plastic BBs that'll sting pretty good, won't do much else.

old4x4
March 16, 2007, 01:39 PM
People who shoot dogs are jerks. Generally agreed. It's generally the owners of dangerous dogs who are the idiots.
Get jumped by a pitbull or pitbulls (or whatever), they latch on to me, they die. I'm not a jerk, just a person with common sense and a strong sense of self preservation.

Cosmoline
March 16, 2007, 01:58 PM
why I really like the little NAA for such situations.

You bullseye feral dogs on the run with an NAA mini revolver? Count me highly skeptical. Either you're not really hitting anything, or you're shooting the stray when he comes up close. Nobody's that good of a shot. And I don't know too many people who use a mini revolver for predator control. It doesn't make sense--unless you're doing it on the sly. I seem to remember you making these same claims in an earlier thread, and they didn't make much sense back then, either. If you really have packs of feral dogs, you need to use proper firepower and kill them where they stand, because as you say they are a real threat to the community. A .223 is ideal. So why are you trying to be so quiet about it? If they're feral dogs, shoot them all dead and post a pic here.

If you feel threaten, you have every right to use lethal force

Nonsense. There is no such blanket law. "Feeling threatened" is purely subjective. And firing off a handgun on a public street because a dog growls at you is profoundly stupid. The dog will likely be long gone when the cops come. And there's you with not a scratch on you and a handgun wearing a new perfume. Heaven help you if you miss and hit a house.

DawgFvr
March 16, 2007, 02:06 PM
45/70...you are correct. A sqirt gun full of ammonia will stop a dog in its tracks. Their eyes...and especially noses are extremely sensitve to it. I learned that one from the mailman. One would be better off carrying a baton, cane, flashlight for dogs aside from the squirt gun technique. Now...for two legged vermin, I'd carry a P38T, if you were so inclined, around the neck...these pistols are small enough that Grandfather Oak makes a neck holster for them.

MCgunner
March 16, 2007, 03:48 PM
Cosmo, did I say anything about "on the run"? I'll wait for a good shot. Did peg one at a full 25 yards with a head shot, though. :D I'd have no problem defending myself with the little gun at biting range. He bites, I bite, that's sorta how it goes. That head shot killed that dog instantly. Hell, I coulda used my .308 I'd just climbed down out of my stand with, but I wanted to try the little mini. It worked. :D

I am inside the city limits on the edge of a small town, technically not supposed to shoot, but you do what you gotta do. They come back to kill my cats, I'll sure as hell take a shot or three at 'em. I carried illegally for many years. I ain't callin' the cops and waiting on animal control to get away from the dough nut shop. I'll take care of things myself. And, me, I don't have to be threatened by a feral dog to shoot it, I do it for fun and to get rid of it.

Mainsail
March 16, 2007, 04:08 PM
The logical progression of all this is that no matter what you want to carry, someone will come along and tell you that itís not enough. Maybe a rouge polar bear that floated south on an iceberg will attack me as Iím jogging, so I better sling the 12 gauge across my back.

I have complete faith in a .38 to stop a dog, domestic or wild, provided you put the lead in a vital spot. So will a .22 short or a .44 magnum.

19-3Ben
March 16, 2007, 04:21 PM
When I run, i usually keep either my Sp101 3", or my Sig P232 in my fanny pack.
Either would do fine (although the P232 is lighter so it usually bounces around less, and comes with me more often). I figure, I am prepared to fend off an attack from either a 2 or 4 legged assailant. No reason to limit myself to just one.

MCgunner
March 16, 2007, 04:23 PM
The logical progression of all this is that no matter what you want to carry, someone will come along and tell you that itís not enough. Maybe a rouge polar bear that floated south on an iceberg will attack me as Iím jogging, so I better sling the 12 gauge across my back.

I have complete faith in a .38 to stop a dog, domestic or wild, provided you put the lead in a vital spot. So will a .22 short or a .44 magnum.

I totally agree. And, the really, really big breeds like the Great Dane or the St. Bernard are not normally aggressive at all! The most dangerous non-feral dog I worry about is the pit bull. Even dobs are friendly by nature unless taught otherwise and that size dog at close range, I feel confident in a rim fire.

Out in the wild, the dogs I normally shoot are homeless feral mutts. I've not seen one YET much bigger than a coyote and they're easy to kill. I've never shot someone's pet, other than that one I got even with at age 12, and after all, I was a kid, give me a break. Even on my place, out of my deer stand, if the dog has a collar or I think MIGHT be someone's lost pet (saw a small dog with a collar once), I don't shoot it, I just run it off. I shoot feral dogs occasionally when they give me the opportunity and I would kill ANY animal attacking me, but that hasn't happened since I was a kid. At biting ranges, a dog's head ain't hard to hit with a .22 mini. If he gets to you, just jab him with it and pull the trigger. That'll save you a few stitches and having to choke the thing to death like that guy in Houston did.

Cosmoline
March 16, 2007, 04:26 PM
I'd have no problem defending myself with the little gun at biting range. He bites, I bite, that's sorta how it goes. That head shot killed that dog instantly.

So he was actually biting you at the time? I missed that part. At only inches from my leg I'd be damned worried about getting a .22 Reagan style ricochet out of the animal's considerable sinuses right into my vital parts.

At biting ranges, a dog's head ain't hard to hit with a .22 mini. If he gets to you, just jab him with it and pull the trigger. That'll save you a few stitches and having to choke the thing to death like that guy in Houston did.

?? The serious biting dogs I've dealt with would rip your hands off before you could get a shot off. And the non-serious ones who don't actually bite shouldn't be shot anyway. It sounds like you're capping the stray when he approaches, not that you're actually shooting him when he's biting you. Have you actually been bit?

MikePGS
March 16, 2007, 04:31 PM
The most dangerous non-feral dog I worry about is the pit bull.
I'd hate to sound like a broken record, but pit bulls really do have a bad rap. The ones i've encountered are among the friendliest dogs i've ever seen. Really its all about the owner, it just so happens that a lot of jerks think having a tough dog in a relatively small package somehow makes them tough to.

MCgunner
March 16, 2007, 04:43 PM
Dude, I kill feral dogs any way I can, with a .308 at 200 yards or a handgun at 20, I don't care if he's going to bite me or not, I kill the thing. They're pests and I just enjoy killing 'em. Some folks kill prairie dogs for fun, far less of a pest to agriculture or human threat.

I told you, I only had one dog bite me and he paid for it with his life. I think if an old man in Houston can choke a pit bull to death by the collar, I can fend him off long enough to pop him in the ear with a .22. I may need some stitches, but it wouldn't be the first time. It never happens, again, I kill dogs for fun. We don't have prairie dogs down here and I'm sorta soft on coyotes being actually indigenous wild creatures who actually eat what they kill. I have shot coyotes, but I don't get the thrill out of it I do from ridding the place of a feral dog. I found a white tail, little 6 point, killed on my place once I'm pretty sure was done by dogs because not much of it had been eaten yet. Could have been coyotes, but I kinda doubt it. We don't lack coyotes down there, though. They sing every morning at day break.

Do you know anything about feral dogs? Do they have 'em up there or do they freeze in the winter? Damned things are a nuisance like you wouldn't believe, bring down calves, sheep, whatever, just kill to be killin'.

My old house was out in the country. Used to be feral packs all the time out there and I shot a LOT of 'em with a .22 rifle. There were houses around, I was on the edge of a development, but it was in the county and shooting was not a problem. I HAVE hit 'em on the run with a .22 rifle before, M152 Mossberg. I don't know how many I killed while I lived there, but it was about 3 miles from the nearest town down a loanly farm to market road and a natural place for dogs to get dumped. Everyone in the neighborhood including me had dogs and we kept collars on 'em so everyone knew the pets from the pests. Heck, I even fed my neighbors yellow lab all the time. I had a black lab and a beagle at the time.

DDrake
March 16, 2007, 04:54 PM
I'd hate to sound like a broken record, but pit bulls really do have a bad rap. The ones i've encountered are among the friendliest dogs i've ever seen. Really its all about the owner, it just so happens that a lot of jerks think having a tough dog in a relatively small package somehow makes them tough to.

True, the owner makes all the difference. The reason why pitbulls have a bad record is because of their jaw. Basically, their jaw (unlike most dogs) is more capable of tearing muscle and maintaining a strong grip. When dogs do attack, the pitbull is the one thats going to be noticed because of the damnage it can do.

MikePGS
March 16, 2007, 05:05 PM
Really the claim that a particular species of dog is more dangerous or likely to harm someone than another is similar to claiming a particular type of firearm is more likely to be used for violence. Its all in the owner.

MCgunner
March 16, 2007, 05:09 PM
Funny how most of the dog attacks I hear about are pit bulls. Ever hear of a beagle or a lab killing a toddler? Me neither. Have heard of cases where the family pit bull attacked the kid. I just have no use for pit bulls, don't trust 'em. To each his own. I know I wouldn't want one around my grand daughter, though.

Cosmoline
March 16, 2007, 05:53 PM
I got the same rule about Texicans :neener:

MikePGS
March 16, 2007, 06:06 PM
No, but i have heard about pomeranians killing babies http://archives.cnn.com/2000/US/10/09/pomeranian.kills.ap/ a pack of chihuahua's attacking a policeman http://brecksong.com/hope/2006/01/Chihuahua_Attack.htm and as for labradors... do you know what kind of dog it was that tore that womans face off in france? the one who got the face transplant that is. Take a guess.

roscoe
March 16, 2007, 07:46 PM
That there is what we call anectodal evidence. And remember, the plural of anecdote is not data.

DDrake
March 16, 2007, 09:22 PM
If you want to know what a very scary pet is.... a damn cockatoo. My parents bought one and the thing is still living (apparently they live as long as humans). This thing will walk slowly up to you (on the floor) with its mouth open and making a hissing sound.


I wouldn't go against that bird with body armor and a 50 AE pistol. My plan is to ignore it and let my sister inherit the damn thing. :D

MCgunner
March 16, 2007, 09:41 PM
Well, the guy I hog hunted with a couple of times had a lion for a pet, chained in his back yard in a nearby town. The town finally made him get rid of it. It was HUGE! He fed the thing fresh kill hogs. He also had hog dogs that weren't your average lap dog, either.

hrgrisso
March 16, 2007, 09:58 PM
Things to consider:

It may not be a dog (coyote/mtn. lion/bobcat)
It may not be well (rabies)
It may be CRAZY and want to eat you

Either way, it's gonna have to get shot, because I don't want to be some four legged things dinner... I'll shoot.

.40 S&W Sig P239 for me. Break your feet to many times, running very far isn't do-able. I can move, but not enough to outrun something thinks I'm tasty!

Wire
March 16, 2007, 11:13 PM
A couple of weeks ago a guy got off the bus, was walking home, and lost his left arm from the elbow down to a pair of pit bulls.

http://www.commercialappeal.com/mca/local/article/0,2845,MCA_25340_5352711,00.html

Jogging pistol? I don't jog, but I walk, and I carry an XD-9 with 2 spare mags.

GCW5
March 17, 2007, 09:12 AM
I'm not going to let MCgunner take all the heat on this one, as he and I have had very simular experance with shooting dogs. I've been ridding all sorts of pests from the country side for my entire life, weather it's feral dogs or cats, rats or mice, pigons or starlings, and coyotes. Anyone trying to make a living rasing livestock, farming, or even a guarden is at risk of losing their livelyhood from all pests, dogs included.

I am a dog lover, and have 3 right now, and it pains me to kill dogs, but it also pains me that people think that its alright to take the cute puppy thay got a year or two ago and got too big, keeps eating furnature, won't mind, whatever, out 5 or 6 miles from town and turn it loose. Back 15 or so years ago, I was playing catch with my sons in our yard, a van stoped by our mail box, about 100 yards from the house, and let a 120# Rotwiler out, took the coller off, and drove off. Before I could get to the house and get back with a gun, this dog had killed 2 beagles and 5 cats and was working on a lab, that latter died from her injuries. 30/30 did the job. Dont call me a jeark for killing dogs.

As far as dogs biting people, I think I saw once that small dogs account for most of the dog bites recorded, as I recall it was Doachshund was at the top of the list. I think that the problem with larger dogs, rots and pitbulls and the like, are that they are big, strong dogs, and tend to hurt people worse in an attack. I've killed way more sheperd mix dogs than any other, but If its not waring a coller around here, you can bet it it won't be around long.

SniperStraz
March 17, 2007, 03:15 PM
No, but i have heard about pomeranians killing babies http://archives.cnn.com/2000/US/10/0...nian.kills.ap/ a pack of chihuahua's attacking a policeman http://brecksong.com/hope/2006/01/Chihuahua_Attack.htm and as for labradors... do you know what kind of dog it was that tore that womans face off in france? the one who got the face transplant that is. Take a guess.
Statistics are statistics. No I don't have any to quote here per-se, but its obvious that regardless personal opinions pit bulls, rottys, dobermans, and other large dogs (that have stronger insticts and bodies) have killed more people than chihuahuas. Just like more tigers have killed people that house cats.
I think if an old man in Houston can choke a pit bull to death by the collar, I can fend him off long enough to pop him in the ear with a .22.
I don't think you realize how quickly some dog attacks take place or how devastating a dog can be. I've seen dogs attack so quickly that you wouldn't even know if you were popping him in his ear or his rear. It seems like "Sure ,I'm a tough guy, I can take a 100lb four legged animal." but its not always so.

Exmasonite
March 20, 2007, 11:02 AM
i have one other thing to offer... aside from pepper spray (which i highly recommend having used it for years while cycling), there are also some ultrasonic deterrents. here are a couple of examples:

http://www.1stlinesecurity.com/dogdeterrent1.html

http://www.dazer.com/dog-deterrent.jsp

i personally haven't used one but the UPS guy for our office SWEARED by it. size of a small garage door opener, very easy to carry. i don't know which one he used... of those products, the first site lists 130 db as the highest volume.

as a veterinary student, i would hate to have to kill a dog but an extremely aggressive, large dog can also do a significant amount of damage and I wouldn't hesitate if it came down to it.

whited
March 20, 2007, 11:42 AM
That there is what we call anectodal evidence. And remember, the plural of anecdote is not data.

I haven't been on THR for very long, but that's the funniest thing I have
read so far.

:D

roo_ster
March 20, 2007, 12:17 PM
I bought my Taurus 651 .357mag snubby partially because it had few steel parts (sweat-resistant) and partially because it could chamber .357mag. My preferred load, 180gr Win Nos Part HP ought to have more than enough penetration for doggies that won't take "NO!" for an answer.

glockman19
March 20, 2007, 01:35 PM
A few years back I was attacked by a pit bull type dog. as he came at me I gave him a swift kick to the head. He flew about 3-5 feet, fell backward I growled at him, he Yelped and ran away. It's my belief that we are the predator. I also believe, while the dog was over 100lbs I'm 5'10" 180-190lbs, any animal or human that gets hit hard enough in the head or face will run away. Was I just lucky?

cwmcgu2
March 20, 2007, 02:31 PM
I ran cross country for years and would frequently take 20 mile runs out on country roads, needless to say I had more than enough dog problems. I started out with a handful of rocks to throw, but if I could throw things accurately I would have been playing another sport than cross country. So I upgraded to pepper-spray, I never had a dog keep coming after a blast to the face, they all ran off with their tails between their legs. Carrying a gun while jogging to shoot an attacking dog is just asking for a civil suit when someone loses their poor "Brutus." It's overkill for the situation. One warning though, be aware of the predominant wind direction. I had some pepper spray com back in my face once while fending off a dog... it wasn't fun.

jlbraun
March 20, 2007, 02:36 PM
A pack of chihauhuas? Heehee! I can imagine how that went:

yipyipyip! (punt) yipyipyip! (punt) yipyipyip! (punt)

Michael Courtney
March 20, 2007, 03:11 PM
People who shoot dogs while jogging get arrested. They get arrested for shooting in an uban area, and they get arrested for shooting domestic pets.

If you want a "dog gun" . . . get a squirt gun full of household ammonia. That and pepper spray. If a dog chases you report it to the police.

We had a jerk shoot a dog while he was out jogging. An off-duty cop. They tossed him in jail for six months, and he'll never work on the police force again. Discharge of a firearm in an urban area, and abuse of a domestic animal.



References and location please?

One should know the local laws. In most states the standard of justification to shoot a dog is much lower than shooting a person in self-defense. Dogs can often be shot merely for threatening livestock and in many states they can be shot for threatening any harm to a person (not necessarily death or great bodily harm.)

Owners have the responsibility in many jurisdictions for maintaining control of their dogs. If an owner fails in this legal duty and the dog gets shot as a result of threatening a person, then it is the owner's fault, not the person defending himself.

Michael Courtney

Michael Courtney
March 20, 2007, 03:19 PM
I know this has been discussed frequently, but I am looking for recommendations for a jogging gun that would be effective against dogs as well. I would normally carry pepper spray as well, but I think I am interested in adding a firearm to the mix and going the fanny pack route.

Recently I have been carrying a S&W 442 .38 snub loaded with +P LHPs. But I am questioning its effectiveness.

Also, are there advantages or disadvantages of revolvers over semis, or vice versa? I am primarily concerned about the constant bouncing around of the firearm innards.

I'm assuming I should focus on lighter weight guns so as to minimize risk of injury to the lower back.

If the weight is firmly supported by your hips, there is minimal risk of lower back injury.

The fanny pack is pretty slow to draw from. Dog attacks happen pretty quickly. I prefer a holster under a light shirt untucked as a cover garment. I've drawn a few times on an approaching dog and it is much faster.

The key to carrying in a holster during rigorous activities is to have a good wide belt and a good holster. I've jogged, played tennis, played basketball, bicycled, etc. with a Sig P229 firmly attached to each hip.

cookekdjr
March 20, 2007, 03:51 PM
A few years back I was attacked by a pit bull type dog. as he came at me I gave him a swift kick to the head. He flew about 3-5 feet, fell backward I growled at him, he Yelped and ran away. It's my belief that we are the predator. I also believe, while the dog was over 100lbs I'm 5'10" 180-190lbs, any animal or human that gets hit hard enough in the head or face will run away. Was I just lucky?

On one occassion my uncle's pit bull attacked me. Maybe it was just fun for him, he was just biting my feet like it was a game but it hurt like heck. So I kicked him in face as hard as I could. His head snapped back violently like his neck was broken, then he'd bite my feet again like nothing had happened. this went on for several minutes before my uncle made him stop.
I was a teenager at the time and could kick pretty hard. But it didn't matter. Maybe it would have mattered if I had on steel-toed boots. But I was just wearing sneakers. I kicked the dog until my legs were exhausted and he still kept biting my feet.
If that dog had decided he wanted to do more than make my feet bleed he could have. With some animals, it doesn't matter what you do with your body to them. You'll only stop them if you have a weapon.
-David
P.S. all that is to say, you got very lucky.

roo_ster
March 21, 2007, 05:40 AM
Most pits I have known have been good dogs...and pretty oblivious to head blows.

No, I wasn't out whacking the poor dears, but pits just ain't that bright and they tended to run into things with their noggins. The sound of a pit running full-bore into a door frame could wake a whole house, but not even give the pit pause.

Shawn Michael
March 22, 2007, 05:29 AM
1) Seems like any gun you could comfortably wear (concealed) running would be a really slow draw and too late by the time the dog got to you.

2) A dog running at you is also a pretty tough target! Fine motor is first to go with increased heart rate when running.

Never done it, but it seem like I would be better off with a fine blade. (with the caveat that if the dog is rabid I am screwed)

Personally I imagine an asp baton would be a fine weapon for a dog attack, but again running with any hunk of metal sucks.

Well what could be better than the ultrasonic dog blaster listed by a prior poster? Do they really work? Proof? Testing? If a reputable company made one and could demonstrate it works and it not a peice of crap, I would buy one.

I recently moved to a city with no leash law and this huge dog is always running up on me. I am not fearful of dogs, but would not want my nephew around. I thought to feed the dog and make friends but then it would probably come around more. Maybe the ultrasonic dog blaster needs to be tested. I'll do it and report back.

Amazingly, if I am not mistaken, here in Calif, carrying a blade or an asp baton is as legally serious as a loaded gun....

gamboolman
March 24, 2007, 03:22 PM
The wife and I jog about 6 miles in a hour so not running hard but more than walking everyday. I wear Smart Carry at 4 o'clock with a Glock 26 and it is very comfortable. Does'nt bang and flap around. Carry a extra mag, cell phone, money clip, sometimes Mace for dogs. Depending on the dog I may pull the gun? Depends. I have been attacked by dogs that I kept off of me with a club before Texas had CHL when I was jogging. I called the DA and he said killing a dog was OK if it was out on a public road or street and attacking you. But that was awhile back.

RevolvingCylinder
March 24, 2007, 04:36 PM
I've encountered many dogs over the years, even a couple of packs of wild dogs. Not once did I even have to as much as raise a weapon. I think it may be my lack of fear of the animals and not playing the prey role as those with an unhealthy fear of dogs usually play that contribute to that(combined with never having to come across a sick or abused dog). Like GCW5(and unlike MCGunner), I could never derive pleasure from shooting dogs and hope I never have to shoot a dog. Especially a domestic dog. As dogs possess no malice, the canines I'd be most worried about would be the sick or severely abused ones(which one has to keep in mind is not common). Regardless of local law, you should only act in self-defense. People tend to get reasonably angry when the friendly neighborhood dog is shot by a coward. It could cost you in civil court or worse.

While running, I place faith in the 158gr HP .38 Special +P.

5Wire
March 25, 2007, 09:53 PM
Glockman19 Posed: A few years back I was attacked by a pit bull type dog. as he came at me I gave him a swift kick to the head. He flew about 3-5 feet, fell backward I growled at him, he Yelped and ran away. It's my belief that we are the predator. I also believe, while the dog was over 100lbs I'm 5'10" 180-190lbs, any animal or human that gets hit hard enough in the head or face will run away. Was I just lucky?
Right you are, we are predators. Attitude and not luck was your weapon, in my opinion.

I have a friend who learned to deal with dogs as a white, mid teen in Africa where he hunted and taxidermied almost everything that was legal to hunt and sold the mounted specimens to a Boston Museum where to this day the African exhibits are largely his work.

On his way home from high school one day back in America, he was held at bay by an off duty police officer's attack K-9. He asked the man to release the dog. The off duty cop smugly refused. After a second refused request, my friend then raised his left hand as if it was holding a weapon. As the dog went for the weapon, my friend broke its neck by kicking it with his right knee. The cop lost his job.

Hook686
March 26, 2007, 12:27 AM
March 15th, 2007, 02:18 PM #19

45/70

wrote:






People who shoot dogs while jogging get arrested. They get arrested for shooting in an uban area, and they get arrested for shooting domestic pets.

If you want a "dog gun" . . . get a squirt gun full of household ammonia. That and pepper spray. If a dog chases you report it to the police.

We had a jerk shoot a dog while he was out jogging. An off-duty cop. They tossed him in jail for six months, and he'll never work on the police force again. Discharge of a firearm in an urban area, and abuse of a domestic animal.

People who shoot dogs are jerks.



Certainly one opinion. My thought is people who let their dogs run unleashed are the real jerks. I'm a disabled old veteran. I will not risk a dog even jumping up on me, as such action could easily knock me down and cause very serious injury to me ... worse, if the dog continues its aggression.

Why do so many really rag on that punk that beat down that 101 year old woman, yet so many think Fido deserves to act similarly ?

barnetmill
April 1, 2007, 09:26 PM
For me one concern about carrying a gun while running in a hot humid climate is human sweat. While not yet carrying a gun while running I have carried one while working outdoors concealed and while doing martial arts outside. The first one was a AMT .380 DA backup. Some minor rust did appear on the trigger linkage with time. The gun also occasionally required a complete cleaning that requires taking it apart. This is a big pain for the AMT. Never had to defend my self with it, but did kill two snakes (non-poisoness, but not harmless) with it that were living too close to my house. I now use a S&W VE 9mm that is plastic and SS steel.

For running I use to carry a short length of #5 rebar wrapped in a towel. I thinking about running again and since I now have a permit I might carry. My Keltecs and glock 33 are not stainless and I am worried about corrosion. I have a S&W VE, but it is large. My P14 is obviously too big.

You also have to carry your permit with when you carry a gun in Florida.

My thoughts, but I have not yet made a decision.

DDrake
April 1, 2007, 09:55 PM
On his way home from high school one day back in America, he was held at bay by an off duty police officer's attack K-9. He asked the man to release the dog. The off duty cop smugly refused. After a second refused request, my friend then raised his left hand as if it was holding a weapon. As the dog went for the weapon, my friend broke its neck by kicking it with his right knee. The cop lost his job.

What?

So, cop refuses to let dog loose .... guy makes dog attack him by pretending to have a weapon...... guy kills dog ...... cop looses job?


Am I mis-reading this, you made your friend sound like a total a-hole.

5Wire
April 1, 2007, 10:18 PM
Am I mis-reading this, you made your friend sound like a total a-hole.
DDrake, The dog was already loose, unrestrained, and threatening my friend. That's what 'holding at bay' means. Under the circumstances of the confrontation, setting a trained attack dog (under command of its handler) on a person is a crime, a felony, I believe. Sounds like you're trying to pick a fight, yourself. I can't remember the fine points of this event but I believe the cop was given the choice of resigning or having to stand on an aggravated assault charge. He got off easy.

I hope you fare as well and simply misread my post or misunderstood the nature of the attack condoned by the dog's handler. Otherwise, it would seem you are sadly misguided.

Mark8252
April 2, 2007, 01:03 AM
a 38 should be good against anything short of a pack of dogs.
Look at a lady smith. Small and compact.
I know off duty cops that carry them.

:) :) :) :)

obxned
April 2, 2007, 02:52 AM
Most of the dangerous animals are two-legged. Pack accordingly.

1911Tuner
April 2, 2007, 06:33 PM
As a dyed-in-the-wool dog lover, I don't like to see one hurt...but some dogs just won't have it any other way. I love the critters, but I ain't willin' to let a big one chew on me just to prove it.

Unless specifically trained to get around a weapon, most dogs up to 100 pounds can be handled with a pointy stick about 5 feet long and 7/16ths inch in diameter. Hold the stick out in front, arms bent, straight at the dog's face. If he lunges...which, because he's faced with a willing antagonist, he probably won't...he'll clamp down on the closest thing to him. Wait until he bites it, and shove the stick down his throat...hard...and keep pushing as he retreats. Don't be gentle. Keep him on the defensive. If you want to be especially nasty, once it's in deep, you can yank it hard sideways and break it off...but it probably won't be necessary.

Sundles
April 2, 2007, 07:21 PM
Hook,

I agree. How do people with aggressive dogs rationalize letting the dog wander loose???

If your dog is even a little dangerous, it is super inconsiderate to let it wander. If you cant afford to keep it properly fenced, then you owe it to every one else, to sell or give away the dog to some one that can handle it properly.

When I jog, (which I dont do any more, but used to put in several miles per day five times a week) I carry a Freedom Arms Mini revlver in 22 mag. It gives me several shots of 22 mag.. Its little one inch barrel and tiny frame conceal in my hand as I jog. My body sweat causes no problems for the all stainless construction. Sure, it is not a lot of gun, but it conceals in my hand and will likely deture and dog or human if I discahrge it in thier face. Not the best choice, but great for jogging. I carried this gun for years while jogging in California and years later in Idaho.

DawgFvr
April 12, 2007, 06:15 PM
I'd like to bring up this thread again...since the weather has become nicer now and I do run around our local lake...and have been chased by dogs recently. I have ordered a 21 inch asp baton...when closed, I can run with it in my hands, um, like a baton...eh? Anyway, I feel much more confident with this device. Has...or...does anybody run with a baton? Feedback? Oh...I also saw a bianchi ankle strap for civilian stealth carry of this baton. Living in WA state, I am not sure if it is legal or not...but there are times where I might need to defend myself and a gun just might not be warranted.

sansone
April 12, 2007, 06:21 PM
I sold a jogger a NAA 22mag mini revolver. he says he jogs without the gun's size or weight being an issue. he tried jogging with a 38 snub but it was too heavy. he bought it only do stop large dogs that seem to attack runners. we live in an area where people seem to let their dogs roam in packs.

ArmedBear
April 12, 2007, 06:41 PM
people with aggressive dogs

Most "aggression" I've seen has been from dogs that were friendly. It isn't considerate (or legal where I live) to let your dog run around on public property.

However, it also isn't considerate to shoot someone's pet out of ignorance, and I hear a lot of ignorance on this board.

Guns + ignorance = excuses for anti-gun legislation

If you're going to carry a gun, the onus is on you to keep an open mind and learn as much as you can about perceived threats and how to counter them.

All of that said, pepper spray is probably more effective against dogs than anything else including a firearm, especially a .22, and you can get squirt-guns that shoot it a long distance. Saw a demo the other day; they're cool!

A truly aggressive dog can attack after being shot. That's one reason pepper spray is often more effective, and is commonly carried by people who actually do encounter aggressive dogs often.

Mainsail
April 12, 2007, 06:55 PM
Dogs, even the friendliest family pets, can become irrationally aggressive. Iíve experienced it firsthand. Our normally mild mannered puppy picked up a hamburger wrapper someone left on the ground, we tried to take it out of his mouth, and he violently snapped at us. It was frightening because it was so totally unexpected. (This is referred to as Ďfood aggressioní)

sansone
April 12, 2007, 06:58 PM
I think we can tell if the dog is being friendly. large dogs can kill the young or elderly. joggers trigger attacks in certain predators. dogs in roaming packs do behave differently than old yeller

mmwb
April 12, 2007, 07:06 PM
"People who shoot dogs are jerks."

People who let their animals roam are jerks. Joy killing dogs is inexcusable. Defending yourself against an aggressive "pet" is intelligent.

Chui
April 12, 2007, 07:31 PM
A couple of things in error.

"Pit Bulldogs" - actually, any Molossid except, perhaps, the Fila Brasilero - is less likely to attack you than just about any other breed of dog. Why is this so? Well, they aren't easily intimidated so they don't respond out of fear. The gamebred Pit Bulls are not at all likely to attack you because historically the "man fighters" were always put down due to the belief that the man fighters were not game and no one wants a non-game Pitdog... Besides, a pissed off Pit Bull snapping at my face is not my idea of a great time.

There is also nothing unique about their jaws which allow them to "lock" or tear flesh more efficiently. They probably do not possess the strongest jaws, either. What they DO have is a trait called gameness coupled with plenty of musculature of the jaws, neck,shoulders and the ability to take a tremendous amount of physical abuse. The "gameness" genes and protection drive seem to be diametrically opposed. Thank God. However, a Pit Bull doesn't require all of that gameness of a well-bred pit dog to do you or I in and that is what we're facing in the urban and suburban jungles for the most part.

Somewhere, some institute did a study of dog breed personalities and confirmed what I just typed. I'll try to find it.

Now, those who think a "swift kick" will stop a determined dog may need to think again. Have any of you seen a working strain dog work? How about a Dutch Shepherd, Belgian Malinois or the pea-brained media's "darlin', the Pit Bull actually work? I can assure you that a kick or punch will not stop them. Ditto for any of the large protection breeds such as Rottweilers, Bouviers, Giant Schnauzers and any of the mastiffs.

I ride my all terrain bike such that I can carry my M&P or my 1911 since it's not so damaging to the skeletal system as jogging with nearly 3 lbs on my strong side. I also carry a fighting knife as well as pepper spray mounted to the bike.

True story.

I was biking home on the sidewalk when I noticed a large American Bulldog unleashed looking my way. He's probably no more than 60 feet away and he was on his feet and moving in my direction. I was coming to a stop light and there was a long line of cars stopped at the light. I slowed down, uncovered my pistol and had my hand on it as I slowly passed the home with the loose dog who simply watched me go by before his owner called him. Well, you can imagine the look I got from the line of automobiles as I looked back at them and covered my weapon. I nodded, took a sip from my Camelbak and continued peddling.

Now I simply ADORE animals, especially dogs and especially Molossids (Mastiffs and Mastiff-derived breeds), but I'd not hesitated to shoot a dog - especially a Molossid - if it were threatening to bite me. You'd not want to be grabbed by one.

I also know of police officers who shot Pit Bulldogs with .357 Magnum as well as .40 S&W and STILL get mauled. Such is the tenacity and quickness of a determined dog. Underestimate them at your own peril.

One other thing I've done to "fear innoculate" myself from aggressive dogs is don the sleeve while a PPD attacks the sleeve. I can tell you now the intensity and strength is phenomenal as is the pressure they apply to the sleeve. My next step is to don the suit and have a Malinois run me down. The manner in which they leap into the target is a bit intimidating to me right now. It soon will not be.

Check out the following websites:

http://www.leerburg.com
http://www.molosserdogs.com

Also, if approached aggressively everyone knows to cease running or biking and stand your ground, right? You don't want to urge their prey drive and it's easier to draw and shoot them in the head - something I came close to doing downtown last year when I was snapped at by a Pit Bulldog mix. He ran out of leash before he could grab my knee...:fire: I drew on the dog as the owner was screaming at the top of his lungs simultaneously trying to get the dog behind him and out of the muzzle of my 1911. Once he had the dog in a bear hug I reholstered and flagged the police who promptly ticketed him.

You've gotta keep your wits about you.

Be safe.

ArmedBear
April 12, 2007, 07:41 PM
Dogs, even the friendliest family pets, can become irrationally aggressive. Iíve experienced it firsthand. Our normally mild mannered puppy picked up a hamburger wrapper someone left on the ground, we tried to take it out of his mouth, and he violently snapped at us. It was frightening because it was so totally unexpected. (This is referred to as Ďfood aggressioní)

If that was totally unexpected, you need to learn about dogs. That's okay. We're not born knowing all about dogs. But don't blame the dog for what you don't know about him.

For the purpose of this thread, though, it's a bad idea to take the food out of the mouth of a dog you don't know. If you don't do that, you'll have less reason to shoot him.

I think we can tell if the dog is being friendly.

Maybe you can.

However, my daily experience says that many people can't. Posts on this forum indicate that people here can't, either.

Example: there's a SWEET Vizsla puppy that hangs out outside I gym I go to. Her owner is a trainer. She's a show dog. She is so overly friendly that she wiggles all over when we walk by, and will jump up and try to lick my face at the slightest provocation. This may be a trait that people want to train their dogs out of, but she's a puppy still.

Anyway, I've heard from two people that she's "aggressive." They say she jumps up to bite them in the face. I've seen this dog interact enough to know what they're talking about, and it's not aggression. Not in the least.

I'd hate to see her shot for it. And there are people on this forum who would probably shoot her, at least if they're not just a bunch of jerks on the internet, mouthing off.

Hook686
April 12, 2007, 10:12 PM
ArmedBear .... I think you might be right, but you know what ? I prefer to error on the side of preserving my physical well-being and life. I do not want, even friendly dogs, jumping up to lick my face. Hell, I cannot predict how animals, that I can speak the same language with, might respond, I sure as heck can not 2nd guess a 4 legged animal. If I guess wrong, I'm history ... keep your dog under leash, and within your sphere of control, at all times, and we will all be better off, for it.

Sundles
April 13, 2007, 02:22 AM
I doubt any one loves dogs more than me. Im not going to get into my history with all the large dogs I've owned and trained either, as it will sound unbelievable. But I'll tell you this much. When I bought a home in Loomis, CA 20 years ago, I spent over $30,000.00 on fencing (that was a lot of money back then) to keep my dogs in. I cant understand how folks can advocate on the side of dogs, and then refuse to see that it is impolite, unfair (to the dogs and the people) and dangerous to let dogs roam unrestrained amoungst humans.

Your dog will be killed if it trys to bite me or any one I am with outside of its own residence. Yes, I understand dog behavior very well. It is not fair to place any person or any dog in this situation. The dogs owner needs to wake up and be responsible. What I dont understand is irresponsible dog owners.

5Wire
April 13, 2007, 06:01 AM
Sundles: Well done and well stated.

sansone
April 13, 2007, 06:33 AM
+1 sundles / the owners who let their dogs roam are to blame

Lovesbeer99
April 13, 2007, 06:59 AM
I'm not sure if this was covered cause i didn't read all 94 posts, but I believe the JHP's are a go to choice cause everyone knows you need a Hollow point for self defense. But for a 38 snubby you lose way to much velocity for the HP to be effective. I'd switch to flat points or SWC.

Good luck

Lovesbeer99

PT-Partners
April 13, 2007, 10:19 AM
First, Sundles, Well stated.

I know the subject has been thoroughly examined but I have been running for 40 years and a 3 foot stick has worked for me. I have been chased about 30 times over the years. Knowing I cannot outrun the yapping mongrel from an :barf: owner who does not care if his "beloved " pet who would never bite (yea right as I got a hole in my pant leg) gets "killed" by a car. The other is the abandoned stray.

Stick, stop point, face and 99.9999999% of the time the "beloved" FiFi, Molly, Daisy, or whatever the loose mutt's name is will back off. If not be prepared to hit the face or nose cause whatever it is thinks you are a large chew toy.

Gun. you have to know where the round goes when you miss. And hitting moving target as fast as a dog is hard. Few train at that level. Remember in the city you got plenty of kids, and other soft targets for your miss. You hit something else and cannot show immenent threat to life you are in "deep" defication.

If you must carry a gun, try snake shot as the first shot. but in any urban area gun is not a wise choice, country or rural maybe.

Since my knees are about gone (55 years old). I have started riding a bike as well as running a bit less and I am in the country, I keep an old 38 with snake, hollow point, snake and four more hollow point in that order as the number of abandoned animals is quite high. It is really pathetic how many dogs are tossed, but that is another story. Never used it but no place for the stick any more.

Just some thoughts from one who has been chased a few times.

Wire
June 5, 2007, 11:56 PM
That guy I mentioned earlier?
He died (http://www.legacy.com/CommercialAppeal/Obituaries.asp?Page=LifeStory&PersonID=88262120).

rick newland
June 7, 2007, 07:38 PM
Sako is my jogging partner. He has never failed to take care of any problems.

http://img477.imageshack.us/img477/9093/01160115du.jpg

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