Pagan gun owners

I have noticed a number of threads questioning whether gun ownership and Christianity or Judaism are compatible. Thant is not a question that has to be asked of us pagans out there as most of us are not really the forgiving type and can be a little prickly about the opinions expressed by the bible thumpers out there.

One of the reasons that I and my family are armed is because our religous preferences are not main stream. I have not had the problems that others have had but I have met with open hostility when the subject comes up.

A friend of mine from my college days has told me how she has had to relocate three times because of problems. She even had her home burned down back in the late 70s because she was quite open about her practices. At the second place, a number of her pets- cats and dogs- were killed by the various neighbors and she had real hateful graffiti sprayed on her barn.

:fire:

Yeah - there are solid reasons for being somewhat vague when folks ask you about your spiritual leanings.

An unfortunate fact of life.

Biker

My GF and I are Pagan/Wiccan... no reprecussions due to that choice, but we don't flaunt it either... we're basically low-key about religion anyway...

Heh, when I saw the title of this thread and "Biker" as the last one to respond to it, I thought it would be about a totally different subject!

I consider religion to be very personal (at least for me) and I'm never the type of person to disparage another's beliefs, unless they're used as a vehicle for violence and hatred. That's partly why we have the First Amendment.

I understand your anger, and your problem with the disrimination against your beliefs. However, I don't know what point you're trying to make. Are you asking what other pagans believe about gun ownership, or just trying to make a general statement? I'm not flaming you, I just don't understand why you posted this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lottery

Different Pagans, Raven.

Biker;)

Not exactly something new. I am a Southern Baptist, living smack in the Bible belt, and I have been on the receiving end.

That aside, this thread seems OT.

Different Pagans, Raven.

Of course.:D

edited as my very obvious reference to the movie Dragnet might
possibly be misinterpreted. Cripes.

We tend to be low key as much as possible but the problems started when my daughter was in high school. The majority of the kids are either Catholic or born agains and started harassing her about not going to church. One of her idiot friends let the cat(black of course) out of the bag so to speak and things went from there.

Things got bad enough so that I had a meeting with the principal and explained to her that I was going to protect my daughter no matter what. A very large friend of ours (Asatruer-Old Norse)picked her up after school several times and the threats stopped.

We are in a remote enough area so that the bonfires and so on are not really noticed. But some of our friends are kinda out there and do not need a sign. They like to take a long walk after dinner etc..Some eyebrows are raised.

Pagan? Not a clue.

Atheist?

(Raises hand...)

My question was basically how many are armed because of fear of persecution because of religous beliefs...

Asatru.

Hávamál 38.

Let a man never stir on his road a step
without his weapons of war;
for unsure is the knowing when need shall arise
of a spear on the way without.

Works for me.

The right to be armed transcends religious, social, racial or lifestyle choices.

Satanist or Born-Again, rich or poor, black or white, gay or straight, it doesn't matter. Those the non-traditional leanings in any of thse categories often SHOULD be armed for protection.

Black civil rights activists, gays, women, born-agains in Vegas, wiccans in the middle of the Bible belt, all have an increased need for self-defense and shold not allow religious considerations come into play.

Around here there are a lot of Amish. I think their religious beliefs prevent them from doing anything but turning the other cheek. I don't agree with this, but hey, this is America and the 1st A comes before the 2nd A.

What bothers me is when the self prooclaimed 'leaders' of a group (Al Sharpton, Rosie O'Donnel, NOW leaders, ...) decide to speak for the whole group and denounce people's rights toprotect themselves, despite some increased safety risk.

Okay. Possibly against my better judgement, I'm going to leave this one open for awhile.

It does have the potential to get contentious, so I'm laying down some ground rules here. In thread violations of any of these ground rules WILL be cause for a ban -- no exceptions, no appeals.

1) There will be NO insults about others' religions. No Pagan-bashing. No Wiccan-bashing. No Christian-bashing. No theist-bashing. No atheist-bashing.

2) There will be no "jokes" about others' beliefs, either. NONE.

3) The thread will be closed if it goes off-topic. On topic is discussion of how your personal beliefs relate to your decision to carry a gun and/or defend yourself and your family. Off topic is anything else.

I hope this is clear.

pax

Pax, thank you..

Depends on what pantheon you worship, but if you are doing the Norse thing, you pretty much have to own weapons. Thor and Odin and all would consider you major sissies if you didn't :D

I once heard a Catholic priest talk about turning the other cheek. He said that if someone struck him on one cheek, Christ said to turn the other. He would then let the person strike him on that cheek. He was asked what if the person struck him a third time. He replied that, having obeyed Christ's teaching, and having run out of cheeks, he would "just have to coldcock the sonofabitch." His words, and being well over six feet and big enough to have had a tryout as a linebacker with the (then) Baltimore Colts, he could probably have done it.

Jim

The gound rules are pretty clear and resolute.
I own firearms as an expression of Personal Liberty. I practice my faith as an expression of Personal Liberty, these Liberties are Dependant on the predication that my expession of said Liberties does not impinge and or diminish the rights of others to do the same. If necessary I will use my firearms to defend these same Liberties, and defend to the bitter end the rights of others.

...if you are doing the Norse thing, you pretty much have to own weapons.

I quoted the Havamal up thread. The "Sayings of Har" were supposedly told to Har by the Wanderer himself. When One-Eye speaks, the wise man listens.

I was a practicing Pagan for about ten years. Since then, I've been fairly agnostic... but when I've needed to call on Deities, I tend to use the Older Religions. I firmly believe that while no one religion has the whole "truth", they each contain wisdom we can benefit from.

I'm a hobby black smith, so Hephaestus is a "patron". I lift weights and train physically, so Athena, Thor, Mars, Heracles, ect... all make a certain personal sense to me.

As for personal arms, even the neo-pagans can see that "an it harm none" and karmic debt should also encompass not allowing "more harm" to be done by overt pacifism. Initiatory force can be seen as "morally" wrong, but defensive use of force is always "morally" right. Not using defensive force is allowing initiatory force to be perpetrated on yourself or another.

That can't be a "good thing" in anyones book.

"Lo, there do I see my Father,
Lo, there do I see my Mother, my Sisters and my Brothers,
Lo, there do I see the line of my people, back to the beginning...
Lo, they do call to me...
They bid me take my place among them,
In the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave, may live...
Forever."

Born and bred a Norseman.

Biker

While we could all aruge about what we believe and why, it is not the concern of "armed" citizens which religious group, cult, or other organization that you belong to. Unless or until that group uses weapons for illegal activity, that is when we "gun owners" need to speak out and condem such a group.
While I being a born again Baptist do not agree with a Satanist, but that disafreement does not overflow to the area of gun ownership. A "satanist" has beliefs totally contrary to mine, until the right to keep and bear arms comes up. Then we are "brothers" in arms.

While I would not let me kids hang out with his, we could protest the capitol building for 2nd ammendment rights and I would stand hand in hand with him in unity.

That is the great thing about the constituion, it transcends religion, race, etc.

And to the moderator: Good choice on keeping the forum open with caution. Very few things are as devisve as religion.

I think that whatever religion one is, there will always be others who don't like it. Because many religions are mutually exclusive, there's no way around it.

I know personally, being a protestant christian, that there are many, many people who label themselves "christian" only because that's how they grew up, or that's how their family expects them to be. It's like a smoker "yeah, I believe smoking causes lung cancer and heart disease *puff puff*" There are just so many out there, and so few I think really believe. Obviously, I don't know what is in anyone else's heart, but as they say "you will know a tree by its fruits." And if the fruit of your heart is harassing another person because of their beliefs, then what's under the bark is not christian.

[OT proselytizing deleted-JS

Whitewolf 508, anyone who is harassing you or your child about your religion are not christians. Most christians don't personally know any real pagans, and could understandably be afraid or uncomfortable, but would not harass anyone. That said, the "churchians" who populate most churches in America would be likely to harass anyone of a different belief, including christians who believe in anything more than sharing gossip in the pews after a few hymns. Even Billy Graham himself said something like 80% of people who claim to be christian, are just pretending (usually decieving themselves as well). Don't feel left out, you aren't the only one who is persecuted by others for your religion.

My question was basically how many are armed because of fear of persecution because of religous beliefs...

Having deep convictions or strong religious belief allows you to not fear ANYTHING, but your maker.

I am armed because of the sport and to challenge anyone who threatens my family or my lilfe.

Just my opinion.

Well, I'm coming from the other side, and this is going to sound like it's veering OT for a minute, bear with me.

Nothing in a debate involving religion gets my ire more than this claim:
"Well, I'm X, but I'm totally cool with you being Y."

Well, I'm not. I believe in truth, and above that, I believe in absolute truth. I believe that the absolute truth exists quite outside my opinions or how I feel about it - and that it exists quite outside your opinions or how you feel about it. I believe that catering to what you should consider to be absolutely false is an indication that you don't believe what you say you believe.

I also believe that this truth transcends how any of us feel about being armed.

I also realize that people who believe these things, or at least pay lip service to them, are in the majority in this country.

One further thing I believe - the linchpin here - is that absolutely no good can be done by trying to coerce people to believe these things. You can't force someone to believe something - you can only enslave their bodies, not their hearts and minds.

Christianity teaches that it is in the nature of man to try to dominate his neighbor. It also teaches that it's wrong - yet we still do it. I know this, and I know the best way around it.

It is vitally important that not just Pagans, but all non-Christians arm themselves.

Choice - Liberty - is what makes it possible to even seek truth to begin with.

Without liberty, truth is merely what you have been told. Without arms, there is no liberty.

When I was a young extreme fundamentalist Christian, I felt the need to to arm myself against an imagined unsaved horde of teeth gnashing servants of the beast, (That is a reflection on my upbringing, not Christianity in general.)

When I considered myself a pagan, I was so brazen and outspoken that I couldn't concieve of someone denying my rights by force. (Playing Braveheart with pikes every weekend at the Ren Faire can sometimes have you believing you are bigger and badder than you really are.)

By the time I realized a resurgent popularity of neo goth culture and all things Celtic in the 90's did not equate to widespread acceptance of pagan beliefs, I had already drifted away from them into a more agnostic, (Or apathetic aetheist, if you will,) state of mind. One priviledge of agnosticism/atheism is that one is not required to proselitize or be outspoken about one's beliefs, (Though many atheists choose to waive that right.) So, other than a lack of attendance at church, I have litte to no outward indication of non-compliance with local custom.

I presently feel no need to exercise my RtK&BA to defend my religious views.

One could argue that the radical proponents of Sharia law, (And it's counterparts in other belief systems,) are a threat to our freedom. But that remains a primarily idealogical threat on our soil at this point, and is not really served by carriage of arms.

Furthermore, thought control and narrow-minded groups seeking to enforce their views on the rest of us are not exclusive to religious groups. While we might not have to bring arms to bear against those folks, we must remain vigilant to their encroaching ways.

Ironically groups like the NAACP and many gay organizations are anti-gun which does not make sense as they have suffered persecution and are a target for such.

I do not carry as a result of my faith, nor do I find any conflict between the two. I feel that as a husband and a father, God has charged me with the protection of my family. Carrying a gun has actually helped improve my state of mind outside the home. I constantly have to worry about how I portray myself (which I probably should have the same motivation as a Christian).

I don't feel fear in the sense of myself being harmed for my faith. If someone wants to kill me because I'm a Christian, so be it, God will be glorified by my endurance and faithfulness. History is wrought with Christians being persecuted, even to death (and many times by her own church), and I accepted that that could happen to me when I became a Christian three years ago (the Middle East and North Africa being good modern examples of such persecution).

I've read many times that "turning the other cheek" was meant as a form of civil disobedience. In the ancient world, if you slapped a person with the back of your hand, it was meant as an insult, saying that the person was sub-human. If you turned your cheek, the person would have to slap you with the inside of the hand, which signified, "you may strike me, but only as an equal."

I'm an agnostic and most of my friends tend to share my beliefs or have a vague belief in some sort of God. I honestly can't think of one close friend of mine who is a follower of any particular school of religion. Now that I think about it, it is a bit odd. Perhaps I hang out with too much of a "secular progressive" crowd.

Anyways, my beliefs made no contribution to my decision to own firearms. But after seeing poll after poll showing how much animosity Americans feel towards atheists/agnostics (we have the honor of being the most distrusted and hated "religious" belief), perhaps it should in the future.

Asatru.

Hávamál 38.

Let a man never stir on his road a step
without his weapons of war;
for unsure is the knowing when need shall arise
of a spear on the way without.

Works for me. For me as well.

I guess I've been fortunate in never encountering open hostility as a result of my faith, not that I take pains to hide it from others. I don't flaunt it either, unless one considers the open display of Mjölnir to be flaunting it. For me, its on the same level as Christians wearing a gold cross.

My question was basically how many are armed because of fear of persecution because of religous beliefs...
I'm not armed because of fear of persecution, though I have certainly been harassed, not for my beliefs as a Christian, but for practicing them.

I am armed because I am a free man. A free man should exercise his right to be armed to resist those who wish to do him or others harm; and in the extreme case to resist tyranny from the government.

Sadly human nature is to belong to a group and groups wish to exert superiority over other groups. Unfortunately we also use religion as a way to define "us" and "them" rather than being respectful of each other's choice. Religious persecution is one of many pretenses for violence that a free man should be armed to resist.

My religious beliefs are no more anyones business than the guns I own.

please see my sig.

I am RevDeadCorpse seem to see eye to eye on this issue.

In my beliefs it is a person responsibility to defend their family and themseleves. Stone, Spear, Axe or 1911... tool does not matter it is decided upon by the times.

I am not a pagan (although some might consider me otherwise :D)
I am not a fundamentalist christian (some might consider me otherwise :D)

I belong to the LDS church, i.e. the Mormons (eeek :neener:)

The one religous group (to my knowledge) to have state sanctioned violence ordered against them from an political executive.

So naturally, my forebears armed themselves to resist and protect their family.

Then my grandfathers headed south from Utah to Az and ended up being attacked by Geronimo. And they used their arms to protect their families.

A generation later my next great grandfather tried to stay out of the Sheep/Cattle wars of Az/NM (i.e. Billy the Kids birthplace).

My Great Grandfather was given his first handgun/rifle at 8years old to defend himself herding sheep.

My Father carried his 1911 from WW2 after the war to protect himself and his family during a few rough times.

All this roundabout talk returns to this. The constitution protects a persons beliefs be it in Creationism, Darwinism, Cristianity, The Man on the moon (sorry if there is a religion that preaches that, I was unaware), the prince of darkness, or Allah. Just don't hurt/harm anyone else.

I truly believe that.

I carry/use arms to protect myself and my family. I don't out of fear (thread topic)

If it comes right down to it, I don't care if a person is doing it because I'm Mormon (or scandanavia, or independent voter). I'll do my best to be standing when the smoke clears, and to ensure my family is standing as well.

And as long as your not harming someone to instigate something;

You and yours should be standing too!
Do whatever is necessary to ensure that.

We all should and I think that's why we are here...

(BY THE WAY, SORRY THIS POST TURNED INTO SUCH A LONG BORING THING)

Unfortunately, there are many people who look for a reason to hate and do violence to others. Some do it out of greed such as the robber, some do it out of just plain meaness, and some for thrills.

As a husband and a father, I am obligated to protect my family. As the main provider, I know what my family would go through economically if I am not there. So I am also obligated to protect my self.

"Harm None" is a rather fluffy bunny way of looking at things and my personal belief is that it does not work. I would not seek nor do I believe that the majority on this forum would seek willingly to harm another person. Someone that attacks me brings down on themself whatever happens to them.

I heard a story of a group of fools that got rumor of a pagan gathering down in Texas 5 years ago and decided they were going to kick some Wiccan butt and enjoy the "skyclad" women's favors-willingly or non willingly. The problem was that it was not a bunch of wiccans. It was a group ou Asatruers that had some very sharp ritual swords and spears. Guess who got the worst of it.:evil:

Allow me to use the word Belief in the context of one belonging to a particular Religious sect, Not belonging to one, or those that have no leanings to anything.

To me, what one "truly" believes comes from within. Call it "inner self" or anything else one chooses, still my point is , one can be a member of a Organized Belief System, Not a member of a Belief system or have no leanings toward any of this and - each individual within themselves will "disagree" with some "doctrines" associated with the accepted "thinking" of these Beliefs.

Religion "X" and folks are not going to agree with all the doctrines. One reason many other Sects started from other Sects [broke off, split, etc] was simply the interpretations differed on doctrines.

Atheist and Agnostics are "Belief systems" if you will. These systems also have members that interpret for themselves different from other of same Belief.

Belief Systems should not enter into some activities of daily living. Period.

To me, the reality is, one is often more "attracted" to something, including a Belief system by members of that Belief system in how they actually live and carry out activities of daily living [ADLs] more than what is "preached", "said" , or "sung".

I do not care one whit what one's Belief system is, is not, or they have no learnings. I respect them.
Just as I do with Race, Creed, or Culture. Freedom, Human Rights and all "we" are supposed to be about, should not let any of these get in the way of Preserving Freedom.

Respect, Common Courtesy, Common Sense should dictate how one carries themselves in ADLs and and treats others in ADLs.

If someone's belief system has a doctrine they leave early on Friday to observe the Sabbath, respect it.
If someone's belief system has a doctrine that if in the OR they are not to have the Cell Saver used - respect it.


Common Sense just needs to be applied to Life and ADLs.

Forefathers came to America to flee Tyranny . Forefathers fought and won Freedom. On parchment they wrote and outlined a Republic. Freedom.
Includes Belief systems, race, creed and culture.
The USA started out as "melting pot" if you will and has continued to be. The US still welcomes those of different Beliefs, races, creeds and cultures.

We speak of gun owners dividing themselves, doing more harm than Gun Grabbers.

In the same context when we bash, trash, talk down and everything else another's belief system, race, creed and culture - no matter the reason, or the topic - WE The People divide ourselves and give Tyranny more tools to divide WE The People more.

Glock vs 1911, 9mm vs 45ACP, Hunters, 3 Gunners, Belief "X", vs Non-Belief vs No Belief Leanings.

United vs Divided - this should the gut wrenching question we ask ourselves and answer with brutal honesty.

Gee, this is such a rich thread.... thanks for those great rules, Pax!

That is not a question that has to be asked of us pagans out there as most of us are not really the forgiving type and can be a little prickly about the opinions expressed by the (biblically oriented --ed: 230RN) out there.

One of the reasons that I and my family are armed is because our religous preferences are not main stream. I have not had the problems that others have had but I have met with open hostility when the subject comes up.

Can't blame you for being prickly about it, considering the Burning Times, etc, etc, etc ad infinitum, even unto this very day and hour.

I know of at least one Pentagram-Carrying Pagan who is armed all the time with hir Paganism being about a 20% factor in the decision to CCW. In addition, s/he tells me, the SHTF scenario may not involve merely hurricanes or collapse of dot-gov services, but pitchforks and torches.

Blessed be, and may the Circle be open.

('Scuse me, I gotta go and pray to St. Anthony, Patron Saint of Lost Articles, 'cause I can't find my Athame.)

"Well, I'm X, but I'm totally cool with you being Y."

Well, I'm not. I believe in truth, and above that, I believe in absolute truth. I believe that the absolute truth exists quite outside my opinions or how I feel about it - and that it exists quite outside your opinions or how you feel about it. I believe that catering to what you should consider to be absolutely false is an indication that you don't believe what you say you believe.
It seems like you are suggesting to people that they should not be 'totally cool' with someone else having different beliefs than you. What do you suggest they do? Should I verbally assault everyone I see with some kind of religous identifier with piles of reasons why their religon is incorrect? Should we take a step further and demand that they renounce their religon immediately on pain of death? Or maybe we should just disassociate with anyone who is not praying (or not praying) at the same altar you are? I have read your post a couple of times, but I still don't get your point.
Anyways, my beliefs made no contribution to my decision to own firearms. But after seeing poll after poll showing how much animosity Americans feel towards atheists/agnostics (we have the honor of being the most distrusted and hated "religious" belief), perhaps it should in the future.
Wow, really? I didn't know that. I have never felt that way, or recieved any flak for my religon (or lack thereof) on any level, save one occasion.

To contribute to the OP's pool of answers, I don't carry to protect myself from religous persecution. I have never felt myself in danger of physical harm because of my beliefs.

Obviously, if somebody is attacked and murdered for any reason, their corpse is just as dead any other. The religion of it's former inhabitant is a moot point.

Weapons for self defense sure are handy tools to help you keep your soul/intellect inside your cozy, warm body, no matter what you believe. ;)

I dont believe that my religious beliefs have any effects on my reasons for carrying or owning firearms. That being said I will say that I have never felt persecuted for my beliefs. I do not flaunt it, but I am not going to hide it either.

Dagda is my protector, weilding quite a club. One side that can take life away and the other restore it. Pagan teachings have taught me that one should have a black handled athame (Blade) for ritual use and a white handled athame for self defense.

Hows a 1911 with ivory grips??:neener:

People have asked about the pentacle I wear. Some are ignorant and think its a sign of satanism. After a detailed explanation, if they are willing to listen, I think most folk come away with at least a better understanding.

('Scuse me, I gotta go and pray to St. Anthony, Patron Saint of Lost Articles, 'cause I can't find my Athame.)This had me laughing put loud - thanks. :D

I am not sure which group gets more hatred..I don't really think we need a competition for that. I do know that the various pagan groups are hated by certain prominent members of governement.

Pagan groups, even those with certification programs for clergy, are denied tax exemptions for clergy and for their places of worship. The Veterans Administration allows crosses, stars of David and Muslim crescents on gravestones in a VA cemetary but refuses to allow Wiccan pentagrams.

One poster mentioned the Burning Times. I doubt that many of you know about that period in history but I would suggest that you do a web search about it and learn how many people died in the name of religous purity(and also greed since the denouncer and the state got to split the victim's property). It was a precurser to the Holocaust - a warm up so to speak..

The path that I am on teaches personal responsibility..the devil does not make me do it...I believe that the majority of people here are also advocates of that philosophy or they would simply allow the police to "protect"them. America was founded by individualists that risked everything to come here in the first place and forged a nation out of the forest. It is a pity that we are losing our birthright to the sheep that do not want to take responsibilty for their own lives(or for us to do so on our own.)

Blessed be, brothers and sisters.

Furthermore, thought control and narrow-minded groups seeking to enforce their views on the rest of us are not exclusive to religious groups. While we might not have to bring arms to bear against those folks, we must remain vigilant to their encroaching ways.

While I may be more concerned about the man with a weapon in his hand than one with a bible or political manifesto in his hand, I will do whatever I must to protect my family from danger - of any kind.

I have, in my time, been a "member" of probably ten different "churches" or sects or religions.

Some were basically variations on a theme.

Some were . . . different.

Of those, several were simply a function of whatever my parents were doing, which was often a function of where we lived.

Three, however, were of my own choosing as I made my way through life's experiences in search of something that a) was consistent in belief and practice, b) could be applied to everyday life in a practical sense.

They have all had a fairly prominent non-violent thread somewhere in their dogma/doctrine.

I won't go into the brand names of these cults sects churches religions bodies of spiritual knowledge and wisdom. There is a fair amount of commonality, but enough differences that there was/is plenty of opportunity for "no true Scotsman" assertions.

What I found pretty broadly was that the flavor of the "congregation" tended, on the whole, to be a function of local culture although, as I said, there has always been a bias towards non-violence and (to a degree) pacifism.

Only one group actually encouraged learning how to cope with real life, learning skill at arms, and taught that "you ain't much good to anybody, dead." And even among the greater number of these adherents, there's a tendency to assert that all (or nearly all) conflicts can be resolved without resorting to violence.

There is, in many of these faiths, a sort of aloofness and a sense that, if you get your hands dirty by using violence to survive, you become tainted and can never truly be clean again.

There seem to be two approaches to getting past this: 1) I don't care what they teach, I'm gonna protect what's mine and woe be unto him who would trespass me and mine, or 2) it is clear that the preservation of myself, my family, my community, and my nation are the greater good, and there is no honor in abdicating that responsibility under the pretext of avoiding whatever violence may obtain in their defense.

I'm more in line with (2) above.

We can discuss my purity of heart after the threat has been removed.

If none of us is left because we elected to "stand peacefully by" while evil worked its wrath, there won't be any discussion now, will there?

Any "church" can extol the virtues of peace.

Peace is only a virtue if you live to enjoy it.

In my own hierarchy, honor, the greater good (family, etc.), and survival trump peace.

The path that I am on teaches personal responsibility..the devil does not make me do it...I believe that the majority of people here are also advocates of that philosophy or they would simply allow the police to "protect"them. America was founded by individualists that risked everything to come here in the first place and forged a nation out of the forest. It is a pity that we are losing our birthright to the sheep that do not want to take responsibilty for their own lives(or for us to do so on our own.)


The belief that the devil tries to influence people in a negative way does not mean that the person also believes in the state being responsible for their protection or that they are sheep or that they do not believe in personal responsibility. If you would like people to respect your beliefs, I would limit your assumptions of other religions.

*sigh*

Ok... forst off, the version of the rede I've always been aware of "An' it harm none, do as ye will. Should harm be necessary, do as ye must". Fairly self-explanatory...

The "rednecks meet Asatrau" has several variants. Version I'm familiar with is a KKK group going out to find them "freaks out in the forrest". Which they do, only to be informed "You raise that cross, I nail you to it. And I've got my hammer right here"...

Does my decision to own firearms/lobby for CCW have anything to do with my religion? Not really: I was this way before discovering paganism. It's certainly helped out a few times though!

Last bit: "the Burning Times". Yes, there were "witch hunts" in mainland Europe. Yes, folks died. However, none of those folks were Wiccan. And the body counts that you see listed are usually VERY exagerated...

I have explored various beliefs and belief systems. I've never factored my personal religious beliefs into whether to carry or not. I have seen plenty of reasons for people in any minority to have a great need to have the means to protect themselves from Haters hiding amongst the general population. I don't care if you're Wiccan, Catholic, Jewish or Northern, Southern, Eastern or just plain folks that look/act a little different, never forget there are hungry monsters pretending to be human that are hiding amonst the general population just looking for victims. They look for victims that no one else will aid so they pick those that are "other" so they can hunt freely. We should all be prepared to protect ourselves and families from them and be prepared to stand with our friends against them, regardless of their "faith".

"Harm None" is a rather fluffy bunny way of looking at things and my personal belief is that it does not work. I would not seek nor do I believe that the majority on this forum would seek willingly to harm another person. Someone that attacks me brings down on themself whatever happens to them.

The ramifications of "And these eight words of the Rede ye fulfill; an ye harm none, do as ye will,*" are far greater than mere fluffy-bunniness --like "don't cheat the 'phone company out of its dime," and so on.

Remember that that the "none" in the injunction "harm none" includes yourself, and the Rede thereby allows for self-defense.

Most Dedicants and Novitiates don't realize this until they get further into it, whence the apparent fluffy-bunniness.

Sort of like Asimov's First Law of Robotics, which uses the words, "or through inaction, allow a human to come to harm."

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*Courtesy Doreen Valiente

my circle of friends and extended family pretty much run the gamut of faiths to include several varieties of non Christians [pagans included] and i am an ordained minister myself. i go armed everyday and so do many of my friends. i have seen many examples of religious intolerance and always remain vigilant to stand with my fellows against such.
pat

O'k I'm done walking the line between here and there. I am a Pagan/Wiccan, with Strong tendencies toward Roman/Etruscan mythos. That being said I also have a little experience with Anashinabe and some Lakota teachings. I also count as freinds Norse/Teutonic practitioners. What does that have to do with Owning Guns? Nothing really with the exception that they are personal liberties,
The reason I can and do readily admit this is that the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights allows and encourages it. It oddly enough also protects and encourages a number of other things the Right to Keep and Bear Arms among them.
What Constitutional Liberty is more valuable than another?
Do my expressions of these Liberties make my actions value one over the others?
Civil Rights are just that, they require that I be Civil in my enaction of them. All of my Civil Liberties are as precious and as Important as the Blood that was shed and Lives lost for them. Am I less enlightened than another since I too am and have always been willing to defend them with my blood and my life?
We as I see it are not talking about freedom of religion and its affect on my other Civil Liberties, We are talking about the Value of all Civil Liberties, the fact that diminishing one diminishes them all. If my excercise of my rights inherently diminishes the rights of another then I am in violation of the priciples our Constitution and the Bill of Rights are meant to Protect.

My mothers catholic (convert to Judaism), father was Orthodox Jewish (I think sephardic) and I have a really common Jewish last name (Cohen). I guess you could say my faith played a role in getting a gun. I just remember back to the holocaust and figure thats a good enough reason to own a firearm. Despite the fact I don't practice Judaism, that doesn't matter to the enemy,

Irregardless of our faith (I'm a practicing Christian), all of us, while we are living in flesh and blood bodies, need arms for protection.

I disagree with anyone who tries to force their beliefs on others; The God I worship doesn't want me being an arm twister in order to spread the Bible Gospel. Its unfortunate that there has been "peer pressure" to convert others; and I'm sorry that Pagan, Wiccan, or other faiths, Agnostic members of the high road have faced this pressure. Peer pressure is only to be used (gently that is) in managing weak, or drifting but already committed Christians.

That is my belief system that I state, but don't force on anyone.:)

Unfortunately, there are those who do, and will force their ideology; Religious or Political on others. I call it Ethnic Cleansing (as the extreme example).

Wow, really? I didn't know that. I have never felt that way, or recieved any flak for my religon (or lack thereof) on any level, save one occasion.

Most people I deal with on a normal basis don't know or care I'm agnostic so I was amazed by what I saw also. Here's links to some polls:

http://www.galluppoll.com/content/?ci=26611
Shows that 53% of people would not vote for a well qualified candidate from their party if they were an atheist. That's the highest unfavorable rating of any group, which included: Jewish, Catholic, Mormon, an atheist, a woman, black, Hispanic, homosexual, 72 years of age, and someone married for the third time.

http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=252
A study showing atheists have a 35% favorable and 50% unfavorable rating among Americans, the lowest rating of any "religious" group. Muslims were the next lowest with a rating of 57% favorable, 22% unfavorable.

Before you post in this thread, go back and read pax's ground rules.

First page, post #17

I'm very openly atheist and despite polling as the most distrusted group in the US, I've never been threatened because of it, especially to the point of needing arms. About the worst I ever get is a condescending and dismissive "I feel sorry for you." While I've never been threatened, history has shown that persecution because of religion can lead to the need for arms. So while my religion (or lack of it) hasn't played a role in my ownership or firearms, I could certainly understand why it might for others.

I CCW because of the persecution I felt towards guns, not towards my faith. Fear of losing the right drove me to claim the right.

I wont go into detail about my religious leanings, but I will say that I believe peace on earth to be a myth. Another reason to arm myself and those I care about.

I am a Christian.

I beleive that Christ himself did tell us that while we were not to draw swords over insults, we were required by God to protect and nurture the precious gift he has given us... LIFE. Do I think that Christians and Jews should be push overs? Oh goodness no. I think that we should be prepared to fight to the death for our lives. Turning the other cheek refers to epithets hurled against us, not stones.

I feel that Pagans should follow the same line of reasoniong, but insert their relevant belief system in place of mine. :)

After the Holocaust , I think its imperative for ANY religious /ethnic group to be prepared to defend itself against a hate group (be it nazi's, extremist christians, jihadists, KKK, etc). Even "mainstream" moderate christian whites can be targeted given the "right" circumstances.

Additionally, we all need to be prepared to defend a targeted minority if the situation requires it. I don't think any of you want to see a Holocaust in this country during our life time.

I disagree with anyone who tries to force their beliefs on others; The God I worship doesn't want me being an arm twister in order to spread the Bible Gospel. Its unfortunate that there has been "peer pressure" to convert others; and I'm sorry that Pagan, Wiccan, or other faiths, Agnostic members of the high road have faced this pressure.

You are a credit to the Christian faith. I have immense respect for you and your reasoning.

If everyone had this kind of outlook with their respective religons, how many wars would have gone unfought in history?

I sincerely wish that we could live in a world where when this question would be asked, people would reply, "What are you talking about? Why would someone think any different about you because of your looks or religon? That just doesn't make sense!"

I'd think the threats don't come so much from those trying to convert you to their religion (unless maybe you somehow wound up on the wrong end of the Crusades or the Spanish Inquisition), but more from stupid people who are just looking for a reason to hate something they don't understand.

I'm guessing the people who burned down Whitewolf's friend's house weren't high ranking members in the local Baptist church. Probably more like local idiots who knew she was diffenent than the rest of the locals.

After 9/11, people weren't targeting Muslims because they wanted them to become Christians, they just hated Muslims because they were Muslims. And as much as I have issue with some of the tenets of Islam, I still firmly believe that any law-abiding Muslim has the right to buy a gun to defend themself from the threat of harm, whether that threat comes from religious persecution or living in bad part of town.

Best policy is " don't ask, don't tell." otherwise, somebody is sure to fly off the handle. A fight errupted on another board over whether the mastodon ivory on a set of grips was 20,000 years old or dated from on or after October 15, 4004 BC. (or B.C.E, if you prefer)

Wait, what?
Mastodon grips?

"Wait, what?
Mastodon grips?"

It happens. come unfroze from glasiers or something. some grip makers stabilize them with rezin to prevent the ivory from cracking.

Sigh...

Gamers.

And religious fundamentalists.

*** does this have to do with boomsticks? Other than either group is gonna do its damndest to piss off the other one?

Well, guys, I tried.

It has always seemed to me that the interface between morality/ethics/religious thought and self defense was a vital one, one worth exploring with other like-minded folks -- if only to tamp down your personal resolve. That is a worthwhile endeavor.

Thank you to those who successfully managed to contain yourselves.

pax